14:37:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:37:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc
14:37:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:37:51 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:37:51 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
14:38:00 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
14:38:05 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
14:38:14 <msporny> Hi Ivan! Are you going to be joining us today?
14:38:17 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
14:38:21 <ivan> yep
14:38:32 <msporny> awesome! :)
14:38:44 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:38:46 <ivan> I am not up to speed on all the issues, so I will listen for a while...
14:38:55 <msporny> Chair: Ben_Adida
14:39:18 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:39:30 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0091.html
14:39:41 <msporny> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html
14:40:26 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny, Ivan_Herman
14:40:36 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:40:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:54:36 <rubys1> rubys1 has joined #rdfa
14:56:30 <msporny> Hi Sam, are you going to be joining us today?
14:56:47 <rubys1> sure
14:56:53 <msporny> good to hear :)
14:59:55 <msporny> zakim, code?
14:59:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), msporny
15:00:35 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
15:00:51 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:00:58 <Zakim> +??P17
15:01:00 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:01:00 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P17
15:01:00 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:01:33 <Zakim> +Sam
15:01:37 <Zakim> +McCarron
15:01:45 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
15:01:45 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
15:01:58 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:01:58 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:01:59 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:04:15 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:04:15 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:04:17 <Zakim> +Steven
15:05:11 <msporny> Topic: Action Items
15:05:20 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to transfer wiki issues to tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
15:05:24 <msporny> -- continues
15:05:31 <msporny> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:05:47 <msporny> --done
15:06:03 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:06:03 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
15:06:29 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:06:35 <msporny> -- continues
15:07:55 <msporny> benadida: Revoke action to transfer wiki issues to tracker
15:08:33 <msporny> benadida: Any other topics to add to the agenda?
15:08:46 <msporny> Manu: Sam might want to talk about process moving forward in HTML+RDFa
15:09:14 <msporny> Topic: Process for moving HTML+RDFa forward
15:09:31 <msporny> benadida: Let's talk about the HTML WG process and how we can make things easier for moving HTML+RDFa forward.
15:10:04 <msporny> rubys1: Manu has put out two drafts now.
15:10:21 <msporny> rubys1: The biggest issues seems to be xmlns:, so addressing that head on would be good.
15:10:29 <msporny> rubys1: Splitting out Microdata might be good to work on too.
15:10:47 <msporny> benadida: My worry is if it get's rejected based on Ian's draft vs. Manu's draft.
15:11:19 <msporny> benadida: What if there is no opportunity to discuss things on a point-by-point basis?
15:11:27 <msporny> rubys1: I don't think there will be an outright rejection.
15:11:47 <msporny> rubys1: I think that the only reason we won't publish it as a WD, other than it's not ready yet.
15:12:29 <msporny> rubys1: Both Paul and Maciej don't see this as an issue moving forward.
15:12:43 <msporny> Manu: Are we going to have a poll before publishing?
15:13:09 <msporny> rubys1: I'd much rather not have a poll/vote and publish if there are no objections.
15:14:06 <msporny> benadida: I believe that xmlns: is a broader issue than RDFa.
15:14:15 <msporny> rubys1: Yes, it is.
15:15:20 <msporny> benadida: Should we wait off on some of these distributed extensibility issues or push the issue now with RDFa?
15:15:37 <msporny> rubys1: Wait a bit, but contribute what you can when the conversations come up.
15:15:47 <ivan> q+
15:16:00 <msporny> ack ivan
15:16:48 <msporny> ivan: One procedural question - is the first public working draft dependent on the xmlns: issue? 
15:17:11 <msporny> ivan: I'm concerned that there would be an objection to publishing the document based on xmlns:
15:17:37 <msporny> rubys1: There's no requirement that publishing requires that there is broad consensus.
15:17:44 <msporny> rubys1: at least for WDs.
15:17:52 <msporny> benadida: Any other general advice?
15:18:02 <msporny> rubys1: Nope, glad how it's moving forward.
15:18:19 <Zakim> -Sam
15:18:36 <msporny> Topic: HTML5+RDFa issues
15:19:05 <benadida> scribenick: benadida
15:19:12 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0087.html
15:19:26 <benadida> Manu: sent out email earlier this week, url ^^
15:19:36 <benadida> ... major issue remaining is xmlns, lots of discussion
15:19:39 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/4AA75ADD.1060509@w3.org ivan's addendum
15:19:52 <benadida> ... couple of other small items which also affect RDFa in XHTML 1.1
15:20:11 <benadida> Ivan: put xmlns aside for now based on Sam's input?
15:20:23 <benadida> Manu: still need to discuss language in the doc
15:20:48 <benadida> ... hard deadline for 9/18 FPWD
15:21:24 <benadida> ... we need to be on the same page for what goes into the doc
15:21:58 <benadida> Manu: XMLLiteral issue with preservation with bare xmlns
15:22:30 <benadida> Shane: your implementation?
15:22:42 <benadida> Manu: yes. I'm talking about the default namespace.
15:23:24 <benadida> Ben: I think the spec says that default namespace should be preserved.
15:23:29 <benadida> Manu: in that case, the test cases are wrong.
15:24:27 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace preservation
15:24:51 <benadida> Ben: if we have to change the test cases, is that an errata?
15:24:55 <benadida> Shane: no, it's just a wrong test case.
15:25:41 <benadida> CONSENSUS that spec says to preserve xml literals, and the only way to do so is to preserve the default namespace.
15:26:01 <benadida> Ivan: should the text be more explicit?
15:26:54 <msporny> The preservation of xmlns as well as xmlns:-prefixed attributes:
15:26:54 <msporny> http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/rdfa.html#invalid-xmlliteral-values
15:27:32 <ShaneM> oh - for the record my implementation DOES preserve the default namespace for elements within XML Literals
15:27:43 <benadida> ACTION: Shane to add clarification in errata regarding preservation of default namespace
15:27:59 <msporny> The preference of the profile link type to the profile attribute:
15:27:59 <msporny> http://html5.digitalbazaar.com/specs/rdfa.html#the-profile-attribute-and-link-type
15:28:09 <ivan> q+
15:28:35 <msporny> The XMLLiteral discussion and what sort of errata and changes to
15:28:35 <msporny> HTML+RDFa should be made:
15:28:35 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0085.html
15:28:38 <benadida> Ivan: let's finish the xml literal discussion.
15:30:12 <benadida> that's the wrong link, not relevant to Ivan's issue.
15:30:48 <benadida> Ivan: the examples and test cases do not have canonical XML for XML literals.
15:31:30 <benadida> ... only RDF/XML has a canonical XML transformation specified.
15:31:42 <ShaneM> Our spec defines the behavior in http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_xml_literals
15:32:01 <benadida> Ivan: we can say this is not our problem, up to SPARQL, etc.
15:32:15 <benadida> ... or we can canonicalize our examples.
15:33:03 <benadida> Ben: we said we expected SPARQL to canonicalize
15:33:14 <benadida> Ivan: absolutely, but it's not spec'ed by SPARQL.
15:33:31 <benadida> ... so we can punt or write something unnecessary but correct.
15:34:07 <benadida> Ben: what's the cost of punting?
15:34:16 <benadida> Ivan: maybe an errata clarification?
15:35:13 <benadida> Shane: we don't normatively talk about canonicalization.
15:35:34 <ShaneM> I have written the following errata text:
15:35:35 <ShaneM>   <li>Section 5.5 step 9 - The text of step 9 reads in part "The
15:35:35 <ShaneM>     value of the [XML literal] is a string created by serializing to
15:35:35 <ShaneM>     text, all nodes that are descendants of the [current element],
15:35:35 <ShaneM>     i.e., not including the element itself, and giving it a datatype
15:35:35 <ShaneM>     of rdf:XMLLiteral.".  For the avoidance of doubt, this means in
15:35:37 <ShaneM>     part that the current default namespace of each element MUST also
15:35:39 <ShaneM>     be included in the emitted XML literal.
15:35:41 <ShaneM>     </li>
15:36:57 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/4AA517CE.7080407@cam.ac.uk start of the thread
15:37:07 <benadida> "2.00"^^xs:float
15:37:11 <benadida> "2.0"^^xs:float
15:38:10 <ShaneM> and "2"^^xs:float
15:41:43 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force" email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's.
15:42:40 <msporny> The xmlns: discussion and clarifications to the RDFa spec:
15:42:40 <msporny> http://rdfa.info/wiki/html5-rdfa-wd-issues#4.3_The_xmlns:_attribute
15:42:40 <msporny> http://rdfa.info/wiki/html5-rdfa-wd-issues#5.2_Preservation_and_Validation_of_xmlns:
15:42:52 <benadida> Manu: let's deal with the xmlns issue
15:43:16 <benadida> ... first issue, xmlns is "not an attribute"
15:43:41 <benadida> ... second issue, "stop talking about XML in HTML5"
15:44:00 <benadida> ... define processing rules in a form that doesn't talk about namespaces or XML namespaces.
15:44:49 <benadida> ... Henri wants us to define how an infoset, non-DOM processor would parse this?
15:45:54 <benadida> Ben: sounds out of scope
15:46:02 <benadida> Manu: maybe an implementors' guide?
15:46:13 <ivan> q+
15:46:38 <benadida> q+ Shane
15:49:13 <benadida> Ivan: if I have DOM1 impl, then no namespace, but if DOM2 impl, then other calls need to be made to get at the namespace info. Implementation approach is very different.
15:49:19 <benadida> ... I think that's Henri's problem.
15:49:25 <benadida> ... so an implementation guide might be useful and good.
15:49:40 <benadida> Manu: that's exactly right.
15:49:54 <benadida> ... there's no *one* way to implement this in a web browser.
15:50:03 <benadida> ... but a very straight-forward algorithm.
15:50:15 <benadida> ack Ivan
15:50:24 <benadida> Shane: it's not just a browser issue.
15:50:41 <msporny> ack Shane
15:50:56 <benadida> ... but that is a bit of a red herring.
15:51:14 <benadida> Shane: implementors' guide on wiki?
15:51:17 <benadida> Ben: +1
15:53:25 <benadida> Manu: wouldn't be too difficult to write the algorithm for web browsers.
15:55:41 <benadida> Ivan: perfectly okay to put open issues in FPWD.
15:56:27 <benadida> Shane: re: what language should be in the doc, for normative purposes?
15:59:29 <ivan> q+
16:00:12 <benadida> Ben: we can minimize the # of references to xmlns.
16:00:21 <benadida> Shane: we already have processing rules specified for RDFa syntax.
16:00:30 <benadida> ... it's okay to include things by reference.
16:00:47 <msporny> ack ivan
16:01:00 <benadida> Ivan: touching the processing rules is the most dangerous thing we can do.
16:01:57 <benadida> ... there is a small section that talks about xml namespaces. But most of the spec does not reference xmlns.
16:02:10 <ShaneM> unfortunate text:  Mappings are provided by @xmlns. 
16:02:26 <ShaneM> Should be "Mappings are provided by [XMLNS]"
16:03:28 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
16:03:45 <msporny> benadida: Let's try to come to some loose consensus on these issues.
16:04:00 <msporny> benadida: xmlns: is bigger than us at this point, maybe we should wait until Tuesday.
16:04:09 <msporny> benadida: to see what the status of the xmlns: discussion is at that point.
16:04:35 <msporny> benadida: implementers guide should be on the wiki
16:04:45 <ivan> actually, shane, the whole of section 2 in the processing rule is a little bit out of place there, we could just refer to the CURIE and URI processing...
16:04:48 <msporny> benadida: let's not do implementation language in the spec.
16:06:19 <ShaneM> In a recent email I said:
16:06:19 <ShaneM> Further, since the RDFa Syntax Recommendation is only concerned about  the "syntax" of those prefix declarations, and has no semantic  requirements beyond that for the use of XML Namespaces, it should be  clear that parts of the Namespaces in XML Recommendation that deal with  how XML Namespaces effect the declaration of elements and attributes is  irrelevant for an RDFa Syntax - conforming processor. 
16:06:19 <ShaneM> (Note - I would be very comfortable adding such language in the RDFa  Syntax Errata document immediately.  I will bring it up at the next Task  Force call.) 
16:06:55 <msporny> Manu: I'm concerned about any language in the XHTML+RDFa spec.
16:07:01 <msporny> have a good weekend Steven :)
16:07:22 <Zakim> -Steven
16:07:39 <msporny> Manu: that contains references to XML.
16:07:51 <ivan> q+
16:07:57 <msporny> ack ivan
16:08:19 <msporny> ivan: In the processing rules, section 2, which refers to XMLNS is a bit out of place.
16:08:52 <msporny> ivan: Maybe we could just refer to CURIE and URI processing.
16:09:27 <msporny> benadida: I think Mark and Shane spec'ed CURIE to be abstract in its mapping implementation.
16:09:48 <msporny> ShaneM: That step identifies URI prefix mappings.
16:11:08 <msporny> benadida: So, we should write up implementation notes on the wiki?
16:11:10 <msporny> Manu: yes.
16:11:15 <msporny> Manu: sounds good.
16:11:25 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki
16:11:30 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript
16:11:49 <msporny> ShaneM: That's the CURIE resolution processing implementation in javascript.
16:12:15 <msporny> Regrets: Mark_Birbeck
16:13:14 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:17:37 <Zakim> -msporny
16:17:38 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:17:38 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:17:40 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:17:43 <Zakim> Attendees were msporny, Sam, ShaneM, Ivan, Steven, Ben_Adida
16:18:27 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:18:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:19:22 <msporny> Regrets+ Mark_Birbeck, Michael_Hausenblas
16:19:42 <msporny> Present+ Ben_Adida, Shane_McCarron, Sam_Ruby
16:19:52 <msporny> Present+ Steven_Pemberton
16:21:55 <msporny> s/CONSENSUS/RESOLVED/
16:23:33 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:23:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:24:31 <msporny> rrsagent, rubys1 is Sam
16:24:31 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'rubys1 is Sam', msporny.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:25:19 <msporny> rrsagent, action items
16:25:19 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'action items', msporny.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:25:24 <msporny> rrsagent, what are the action items
16:25:24 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'what are the action items', msporny.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:25:37 <msporny> rrsagent, what actions?
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to transfer wiki issues to tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05] [1]
16:25:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-05-20
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [2]
16:25:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-05-31
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [3]
16:25:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-06-03-1
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace preservation [4]
16:25:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-24-27
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to add clarification in errata regarding preservation of default namespace [5]
16:25:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-27-43
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force" email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [6]
16:25:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-41-43
16:25:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [7]
16:25:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T16-11-25
16:26:28 <msporny> s/rubys1/Sam/
16:26:33 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:26:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:27:03 <msporny> rrsagent, drop action 1
16:27:15 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:27:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:28:37 <msporny> action 2, pre or post removal of action #1?
16:28:48 <msporny> rrsagent, what actions?
16:28:48 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:28:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [2]
16:28:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-05-31
16:28:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [3]
16:28:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-06-03-1
16:28:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace preservation [4]
16:28:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-24-27
16:28:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to add clarification in errata regarding preservation of default namespace [5]
16:28:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-27-43
16:28:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force" email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [6]
16:28:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-41-43
16:28:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [7]
16:28:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T16-11-25
16:29:35 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:29:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:30:10 <rubys> rubys has left #rdfa
18:33:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
20:01:05 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
20:46:01 <msporny> rrsagent, bye
20:46:01 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-actions.rdf :
20:46:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [2]
20:46:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-05-31
20:46:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [3]
20:46:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-06-03-1
20:46:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace preservation [4]
20:46:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-24-27
20:46:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to add clarification in errata regarding preservation of default namespace [5]
20:46:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-27-43
20:46:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force" email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [6]
20:46:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T15-41-43
20:46:01 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [7]
20:46:01 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-irc#T16-11-25