00:05:48 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7059] Forking XPath <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0183.html>
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00:27:28 <MikeSmith> @planet
00:27:29 <pimpbot> MikeSmith: HTML 5 <video> - webcam integration? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1318834/html-5-video-webcam-integration> 4** This Summer in HTML 5 – Episode 33 <11http://blog.whatwg.org/this-summer-in-html-5-episode-33> 4** Canvas Tutorial / Reference <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1334216/canvas-tutorial-reference> 4** Maxwell's Silver Hammer: RDFa and HTML5's Microdata (4 more messages)
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01:08:57 <MikeSmith> @planet
01:08:58 <pimpbot> MikeSmith: HTML 5 <video> - webcam integration? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1318834/html-5-video-webcam-integration> 4** This Summer in HTML 5 – Episode 33 <11http://blog.whatwg.org/this-summer-in-html-5-episode-33> 4** Canvas Tutorial / Reference <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1334216/canvas-tutorial-reference> 4** Maxwell's Silver Hammer: RDFa and HTML5's Microdata (4 more messages)
01:15:26 <cardona507> cardona507 has joined #html-wg
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01:34:08 <pimpbot> planet: HTML5: normativity & authoring guides <11http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/09/normativity> 4** Venus Updates <11http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/09/09/Venus-Updates> 4** Mobile and HTML5, the 3rd Future Web Forum in Korea <11http://www.mozilla.or.kr/zine/?p=928> 4** URI doesn't validate on W3C Markup Validator, identical direct input does <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1291443/uri-doesnt-validate-on-w3c-markup-validator-identical-d
01:36:08 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7551] People are using <section> incorrectly <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0185.html> 4** [Bug 7556] Where is it defined that only the first <base> element is to be taken into account? Surely that should not be part of iri-bis. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0184.html>
03:06:28 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7559] New: What happens when an "option" element has its "selected" attribute removed? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0186.html>
03:19:38 <MikeSmith> action-123?
03:19:38 <trackbot> ACTION-123 -- Sam Ruby to discuss choice of embedding vcard microdata instead of referencing IETF spec and defining conformance reqs for HTML5 -- due 2009-09-05 -- OPEN
03:19:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/123
03:19:39 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-123 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
03:19:57 <MikeSmith> action-123 due 2009-10-10
03:19:57 <trackbot> ACTION-123 Discuss choice of embedding vcard microdata instead of referencing IETF spec and defining conformance reqs for HTML5 due date now 2009-10-10
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05:06:59 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7560] New: The following sentence could be made more clear, or given an example to indicate what is meant: "The otherwise optional U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character must be included if the element's contents start with that character" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0187.html>
05:16:23 <MikeSmith> issue-55?
05:16:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-55 -- head/@profile missing, but used in other specifications/formats -- OPEN
05:16:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
05:16:25 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-55 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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08:07:47 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7059] Forking XPath <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0188.html>
08:18:26 <MikeSmith> mjs: are you planning to call into the RDFa task-force call? from Ben's message, it seem unclear that they are prepared to have any specific discussion yet
08:19:18 <mjs> MikeSmith: my plan is no (I would if Sam planned to and asked me to join)
08:19:31 <MikeSmith> OK
08:19:34 <mjs> I do plan to call into the HTML WG telecon, to which end I suppose I should go to sleep soon
08:20:09 <MikeSmith> .t San Francisco
08:20:10 <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'San Francisco' timezone.
08:20:17 <MikeSmith> .t US/West
08:20:18 <phenny> MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'US/West' timezone.
08:20:24 <MikeSmith> .t PDT
08:20:24 <phenny> Thu, 10 Sep 2009 01:20:24 PDT
08:21:36 <MikeSmith> mjs: man, it's still early.. I know you don't need any more than 5 hours of sleep (笑)
08:21:51 <mjs> :-p
08:37:54 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7284] add examples here <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0190.html> 4** [Bug 7561] New: There's no UA conformance criteria for <meta name>, in particular nothing about case-insensitivity. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0189.html>
08:40:28 <MikeSmith> anne: I would really like to figure out why the Planet HTML5 venus consistently gets 500 for your feed
08:41:04 <MikeSmith> I'm wondering if your ISP might be blocking it based on IP address or something
08:41:31 <MikeSmith> maybe you could check your access logs and see if you spot anything 
08:43:46 <anne> what is the IP?
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08:49:23 <anne> MikeSmith, maybe I fixed something
08:49:39 <anne> MikeSmith, apparently I've been sending out bogus Not Modified headers for a while
08:53:35 <MikeSmith> anne: IP is 128.30.54.11
08:54:35 <MikeSmith> anne: yeah, seems to be fixed now
08:54:41 <MikeSmith> thanks!
08:55:05 <jgraham> MikeSmith: BTW, do you know if it is possible to change ones email address on W3C bugzilla?
09:00:27 <MikeSmith> jgraham: I can change it. I have change addresses before for others and it seemed to work - in that it also changed it automatically in all existing bugs the user was CC'ed on
09:00:35 <MikeSmith> action-141?
09:00:35 <trackbot> ACTION-141 -- Maciej Stachowiak to document Last Call comment process -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
09:00:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/141
09:00:37 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-141 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
09:06:02 <pimpbot> planet: Carsonified » How to Draw with HTML 5 Canvas <11http://carsonified.com/blog/dev/html-5-dev/how-to-draw-with-html-5-canvas/> 4** Detecting HTML 5 Features: http://diveintohtml5.org/detect.html #html5 #diveintohtml5 @KuraFire @Modernizr <11http://twitter.com/diveintomark/statuses/3857638710>
09:07:02 <anne> Julian, are you trying to get me to sort out your issues?
09:08:02 <pimpbot> changes: hixie: <link> examples (whatwg r3787) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0047.html> 4** hixie: <base> example. (whatwg r3786) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0046.html> 4** hixie: <head> examples (whatwg r3785) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0045.html>
09:08:03 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7561] There's no UA conformance criteria for <meta name>, in particular nothing about case-insensitivity. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0193.html> 4** [Bug 7286] add examples here <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0192.html> 4** [Bug 7285] add examples here <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0191.html>
09:08:06 <anne> Julian, I have a hard time following the BNF character ranges
09:11:49 <anne> strip leading and trailing space characters is turned into strip leading and trailing U+0020 characters
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09:17:04 <jgraham> MikeSmith: Would you mind changing my jg307@cam.ac.uk account to something that I have access to like jgraham @ opera or so
09:20:31 <MikeSmith> jgraham: OK, done
09:20:44 <MikeSmith> I also set editbugs perms for you
09:21:55 <jgraham> MikeSmith: You are awesome. Thanks
09:22:20 <jgraham> ;)
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09:30:52 <Julian> Anne, "my issues"?
09:35:30 <anne> well, I couldn't care less about LEIRIs
09:36:27 <anne> oh lol, they're even open to three variants
09:36:32 <anne> interop ftw i guess
09:37:09 <Julian> NIH syndrome?
09:37:41 <Julian> As far as I can tell, LEIRIs try to address similar problems as those HTML5-URLs do, so it makes a lot of sense to look at the overlap.
09:37:53 <anne> Julian, if that's what you want to call it
09:38:09 <pimpbot> changes: hixie: <style> example. (whatwg r3790) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0050.html> 4** hixie: <meta> examples. (whatwg r3789) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0049.html> 4** hixie: Mention that <meta name> is case-insensitive. (whatwg r3788) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0048.html>
09:38:10 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7288] add examples here <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0195.html> 4** [Bug 7287] add examples here <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0194.html>
09:38:31 <anne> Julian, the work so far on iri-bis does not give me much faith it will go well
09:44:15 <Julian> Anne, I have to agree; in particular as its progress depends on IDNABIS.
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10:08:15 <pimpbot> changes: hixie: minor editorial issues (whatwg r3792) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0052.html> 4** hixie: <script> example. (whatwg r3791) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0051.html>
10:08:16 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7289] add examples here <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0196.html>
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11:08:30 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7551] People are using <section> incorrectly <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0197.html>
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11:38:38 <pimpbot> changes: hixie: The links actually have to make sense, also. (whatwg r3795) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0054.html> 4** hixie: <noscript> example (whatwg r3793) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Sep/0053.html>
11:38:39 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7290] add examples here <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0198.html>
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12:36:54 <pimpbot> planet: HTML vs. XHTML - WHATWG Wiki <11http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML>
12:44:24 <Julian> can somebody remind me who was going to revise http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-stylesheet/ (and where?)
12:44:25 <pimpbot> Title: Associating Style Sheets with XML documents (at www.w3.org)
12:44:34 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #html-wg
12:46:05 <annevk> see public-xml-core archives
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12:47:00 <annevk> hmm, public-xml-core-wg
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12:51:30 <Julian> thx
12:52:27 <Julian> now if the spec wasn't non-public... sigh...
12:52:59 <Julian> ah, found a public copy
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12:55:39 <annevk> Simon should have a non-public copy somewhere
12:56:13 <Julian> yes, on simon.html5.org
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13:37:10 <pimpbot> planet: SVG Web: Making SVG work in IE and beyond <11http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/DUOtiyn8jyM/svg-web-making-svg-work-in-ie-and-beyond>
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14:09:16 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7059] Forking XPath <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0199.html>
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14:37:23 <pimpbot> planet: Spelling HTML5 <11http://blog.whatwg.org/spelling-html5>
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14:56:32 <takkaria> hm, the telecon is later
15:00:02 <jgraham> takkaria: You attending?
15:02:37 <takkaria> I don't think I'll be calling in
15:02:58 <takkaria> I'm not even sure that I can, since I'm still down as an independent invited expert on the WG and not an Opera employee
15:07:28 <rubys1> the telecon is not limited to W3C members
15:09:30 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7059] Forking XPath" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Sep/0200.html>
15:09:30 <takkaria> I was under the understanding that if I'm an Opera employee I should be marked as such or I shouldn't be part of the WG anymore without approval or anything
15:09:46 <takkaria> my solution was just not to do anything with the WG for the months I'm an Opera employee :)
15:10:26 <Dashiva> Yeah, I was transferred to Opera's group when I interned
15:10:36 <takkaria> all I'd want to do is draw attention to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite
15:10:38 <pimpbot> Title: Testsuite - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
15:10:49 <Dashiva> (And then I never bothered to sign up again after I finished)
15:11:17 <takkaria> Dashiva: I'm just lying low, since it seemed like the easier option
15:11:35 <anne> rubys1, hmm, regrets from me
15:12:27 <jgraham> The CSS testsuite format seems kinda heavyweight
15:13:03 <jgraham> Like it looks like the boilerplate is likely to be longer than the test in many cases. Which is bad
15:13:14 <Dashiva> takkaria: In retrospect, maybe that's the best solution
15:14:25 <takkaria> as it has been noted before, for the test work, someone has to just start getting things actually moving and the rest will follow
15:15:23 <anne> for a lot of the tests you also want to use a simple JavaScript framework
15:15:34 <anne> or maybe reftests
15:16:00 <takkaria> it would be nice if the HTMLWG testcases could be converted into the test format WebKit uses
15:16:25 <Philip> to the extent that I'll write a thousand lines of Python code, so that the test cases themselves have zero boilerplate
15:16:36 <gsnedders> takkaria: You need to be marked as an Opera employee for the sake of the patent policy
15:17:05 <gsnedders> takkaria: (And that goes for any W3C mailing list that operates under the patent policy, including those that anyone can subscribe to like public-webapps)
15:18:32 <takkaria> I see
15:20:27 <Philip> takkaria: Why the test format WebKit uses?
15:20:44 <Philip> (compared to e.g. the ones that anyone else uses)
15:20:55 <Philip> Also, which of the test formats that WebKit uses?
15:25:33 <takkaria> Philip: LayoutTests
15:26:12 <takkaria> mostly because they're pretty restricive
15:26:14 <takkaria> *restrictive
15:26:48 <takkaria> and if you can write tests that work via a shim with LayoutTests, I think you should be able to make that shim work with Fx tests too
15:27:04 <takkaria> and I imagine most other testing systems you'd like
15:27:15 <takkaria> it would be nice to know the IE team's thoughts on this, really
15:27:52 <Philip> One problem Mozilla had with the canvas tests is there were too many individual files and it took ages to run them all, so they've changed it now to combine them all into a single file
15:28:35 <gsnedders> takkaria: reftests are surely better, though… WebKit has fun when they change default styles…
15:29:03 <Philip> so it's more complex than a direct translation of one input test case into one browser-specific executable HTML test case
15:29:12 <Philip> (though not that much more)
15:29:25 <takkaria> gsnedders: well, I'm just thinking from the point of view of plugging whatever WG tests are made into browser testing suites
15:30:13 <Philip> gsnedders: Something like canvas tests can't be reftests, because there's no pixel-correctness requirement (e.g. someone could change the antialiasing algorithm and it shouldn't matter)
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15:31:59 <Philip> (I presume they can't be layout tests either, since they're not doing any layout)
15:33:18 <jgraham> In general reftests are probably not quite right for HTML compared to CSS (where theyare ideal)
15:33:36 <jgraham> (although they do make sense in some cases)
15:33:49 <gsnedders> For HTML we more want something like the html5lib tests, no?
15:33:53 <takkaria> LayoutTests in Webkit are a slightly misleading name since they don't necessarily test layout
15:33:58 <jgraham> (like maybe <video poster>)
15:34:23 <jgraham> takkaria: IIRC the webkit layout tests had some custom hooks in the browser
15:34:40 <takkaria> they can be used in such a way that you compare the expected innerText of the document with teh actual innerText
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15:35:08 <jgraham> I thought that covered some but not all of the functionality
15:35:11 <Philip> gsnedders: The html5lib tests are generally hard to test in browsers
15:35:23 <takkaria> jgraham: yeah, I think you can do other stuff too but I've not looked into it too heavily
15:35:24 <Philip> e.g. if you wanted to use the tokeniser tests
15:35:24 <gsnedders> Philip: Not really.
15:35:37 <gsnedders> Philip: Well, yeah, but the full parser tests are fine
15:36:06 <takkaria> but if we can design the tests such that they can mostly be shimmed into something like WebKit's text out format, that wuold be nice
15:36:20 <gsnedders> http://gsnedders.html5.org/html5lib-tests/runner.html
15:36:22 <pimpbot> Title: html5lib test runner (at gsnedders.html5.org)
15:37:09 <Philip> I think I like the idea of writing tests in a boilerplate-free format, like html5lib parser ones, and then automatically transforming into browser-executable tests, because that makes them easy to write and easy to use in non-browser contexts (e.g. testing html5lib)
15:37:29 <takkaria> yeah, it's a good one
15:37:57 <Philip> That seems more useful than the test suite just being a set of HTML files you can only run in a browser
15:37:58 <takkaria> the testsuite is inevitably going to have a bunch of different formats.  no one format is going to fit all the use-cases
15:38:16 <takkaria> and I imagine a chunk of them will be authored in JS and HTML
15:42:03 <DanC> issue-78?
15:42:03 <trackbot> Getting info on ISSUE-78 failed - alert sysreq of a possible bug
15:42:18 <Philip> Oops
15:44:27 <jgraham> I'm somewhat torn on whether the html5lib tests should have descriptions. On the one hand they can be nice, on the other thay can be horribly misleading and tedious to write
15:46:10 <Philip> In what cases is it useful to have the descriptions?
15:47:52 <Philip> I guess one case is when the spec changes, and the tests need to be updated, and some might become redundant if they were meant to be testing a feature that was removed, and so you might want to remove the test case, but not if that feature was incidental and it's intending to test something else
15:48:07 <Philip> and so you want to know the intention of the person who wrote the test
15:48:40 <Philip> but maybe it's easier to just accept redundant test cases, and never bother trying to prune them, because they don't hurt much
15:49:19 <jgraham> It is sometimes somewhat useful to have an idea of what the testcase was supposed to test
15:49:38 <jgraham> Especially if a bunch of tests fail and they all have similar descriptions
15:50:57 <jgraham> But that doesn't always work because tests usually test more than one thing
15:50:59 <Philip> Should the tests be written with some kind of structure/organisation, as a way of making sure they're testing everything?
15:51:07 <Philip> If so, that might provide a natural way to name them
15:51:36 <Philip> (like all the names in http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/ )
15:51:37 <pimpbot> Title: Canvas tests - index (at philip.html5.org)
15:51:40 <jgraham> It would be interesting to get some sort of spec coverage statistics for the tests
15:52:04 <jgraham> But I don't quite know how you would do that for non-trivial cases
15:52:11 <Philip> but it's much harder to think of names when you've got a random hodge-podge of interesting cases or regression cases etc
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15:56:19 <takkaria> I started writing systematic tests for the html5 treebuilder algorithm with hubbub but I imagine they will be outdated now
15:56:50 <takkaria> the idea was just to test that each of the different cases in any given treebuilder phase would be executed
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15:57:49 <takkaria> the descriptions were tedious as hell to write
15:58:25 <paulc> Paul is present and ready to start.
15:59:00 <Philip> but it'd probably take a couple of weeks of solid work :-(
15:59:04 <rubys> trackbot, start meeting
15:59:12 <mjs> hello
15:59:40 <Julian> trackbot left us 20 minutes ago
15:59:41 <MikeSmith> looks like we have no trackbot today
15:59:52 <MikeSmith> yeah, w3c systems team is working on it
16:00:00 <paulc> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0417.html
16:00:01 <pimpbot> Title: FW: Agenda for HTML WG telcon 2009-09-10 - Accessibility TF, Testing TF, etc from Paul Cotton on 2009-09-09 (public-html@w3.org from September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:00:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-wg
16:00:16 <MikeSmith> Zakim, this will be HTML
16:00:16 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
16:00:34 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:00:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:00:40 <paulc> Proposed scribe is rubys
16:00:42 <DanC> issue-78?
16:00:48 <rubys> scribe: rubys
16:01:26 <paulc> I saw your note Dan - we will deal with it when we get to that agenda item.
16:01:41 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #html-wg
16:01:54 <Zakim> +Matt
16:02:01 <Zakim> +Cooper
16:02:02 <Julian> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:03 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
16:02:04 <DanC> I was testing trackbot, paulc . still losing.
16:02:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], +1.703.234.aaaa, +49.251.280.aabb, Matt, Cooper (muted)
16:02:07 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:02:09 <Zakim> +Mike
16:02:13 <Zakim> +Sam
16:02:15 <Zakim> + +1.218.340.aacc
16:02:20 <paulc> I have audio but I don't think you can hear me.
16:02:21 <Zakim> + +1.415.595.aadd
16:02:21 <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aabb is me
16:02:24 <Zakim> +Julian; got it
16:02:35 <Eliot_Graff> Eliot_Graff has joined #html-wg
16:02:54 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
16:02:54 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
16:02:56 <Zakim> -Mike
16:02:56 <mjs> Zakim, +1.415.595.aadd is me
16:02:56 <Zakim> +mjs; got it
16:03:00 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
16:03:00 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:03:01 <Zakim> +Mike
16:03:21 <Zakim> +Shepazu
16:03:35 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #html-wg
16:03:37 <Zakim> + +1.206.850.aaee
16:03:44 <Zakim> +Paul_Cotton
16:03:51 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:03:56 <DanC> Regrets+ DanC
16:04:00 <Eliot_Graff> Zakim, 1.206.850.aaee is me
16:04:00 <Zakim> sorry, Eliot_Graff, I do not recognize a party named '1.206.850.aaee'
16:04:19 <Zakim> -Mike
16:04:31 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
16:04:31 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:04:32 <Zakim> +Mike
16:04:50 <Eliot_Graff> zakim, 206.850 is me
16:04:50 <Zakim> sorry, Eliot_Graff, I do not recognize a party named '206.850'
16:04:52 <Zakim> + +1.425.614.aaff
16:05:02 <Julian> Zakim, +1.206.850.aaee is Eliot_Graff
16:05:02 <Zakim> +Eliot_Graff; got it
16:05:19 <Julian> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:05:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.703.234.aaaa, Julian, Matt, Cooper, Mike, Sam, +1.218.340.aacc, mjs, Shepazu, Eliot_Graff, Paul_Cotton, +1.425.614.aaff
16:05:31 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
16:05:31 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
16:05:33 <Zakim> -Mike
16:05:38 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
16:05:38 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:05:40 <Zakim> +Mike
16:06:16 <rubys> zakim, aaff is adrian
16:06:16 <Zakim> +adrian; got it
16:06:27 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-wg
16:06:35 <rubys> zakim, aacc is laura
16:06:35 <Zakim> +laura; got it
16:06:55 <rubys> zakim, aaaa is jerry ezrol
16:06:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaaa is jerry ezrol', rubys
16:06:56 <Zakim> +Rich
16:07:11 <rubys> zakim, aaaa is jerryEzrol
16:07:11 <Zakim> +jerryEzrol; got it
16:08:03 <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0417.html
16:09:02 <rubys> paul: we are going to review 6 due and overdue actions, one new issue, no issues proposed to be closed, then we will touch on the proposed tasks forces
16:09:19 <rubys> topic: ISSUE-73/ACTION-123: Discuss choice of embedding vcard microdata instead of referencing IETF spec and defining conformance reqs for HTML5
16:09:22 <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
16:09:43 <Laura> Laura has joined #html-wg
16:10:10 <rubys> rubys: the plan is that this data will go out of the spec, once it is out of the spec, there is no coor issue?
16:10:41 <rubys> rubys: julain: I've contacted the IETF.. and they haven't responded
16:10:48 <rubys> rubys: paulc: you moved the date?
16:11:08 <rubys> rubys: rubys: that's the date that it should be moved out of the spec
16:11:19 <rubys> rubys: julian: if it is moved out of the spec, I'm happy with that
16:11:58 <rubys> paulc: do we need something more specific in the action?
16:12:46 <rubys> paulc: new due date will be october 1
16:12:57 <rubys> topic: SSUE-31/ACTION-131: Draft ALT spec [Steve Faulkner] 
16:13:07 <rubys> paulc: is steve on the call?
16:13:13 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, makee minutes
16:13:13 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'makee minutes', MikeSmith.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:13:13 <Laura> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/img.html
16:13:17 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:13:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:13:24 <rubys> laura: I believe he has been working on it
16:13:36 <Laura> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/textalternatives.html
16:13:47 <rubys> michaelc: I can't give you a precise timeline
16:14:22 <rubys> paulc: I'll get in contact with Steve and get a new date...
16:14:35 <rubys> paulc: how about a two weeks extension?
16:15:04 <MikeSmith> action-131 due 2009-09-21
16:15:04 <trackbot> ACTION-131 Draft ALT spec due date now 2009-09-21
16:15:19 <paulc> Paul will follow up with Steve to check on revised date of ACTION-131
16:16:07 <rubys> topic: SSUE-63/ACTION-96: to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec [Henri Sivonen] 
16:16:26 <Zakim> +kliehm
16:16:32 <rubys> s/SSUE/ISSUE/
16:16:37 <kliehm> zakim, mute me
16:16:37 <Zakim> kliehm should now be muted
16:17:01 <rubys> mike: I added a comment, and I do think it can be closed
16:17:25 <rubys> mike: action can be closed (issue can remain open)
16:17:39 <MikeSmith> action-96?
16:17:39 <trackbot> ACTION-96 -- Henri Sivonen to to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec -- due 2009-09-09 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:17:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/96
16:17:57 <rubys> paulc: why do you say that his action is closed?
16:18:36 <rubys> paulc: if the actual work hasn't been done, we shouldn't close the action
16:19:08 <rubys> mike: the origin header is still mentioned, but it is unclear what action we should take (if any), henri's action is now moot
16:19:11 <shepazu> ISSUE-63?
16:19:11 <trackbot> ISSUE-63 -- Origin header: in scope? required for this release? -- OPEN
16:19:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/63
16:19:16 <shepazu> q+
16:19:52 <rubys> mike: [explains what the spec says re: origin]
16:21:10 <rubys> paulc: proposal is to close action 96, noting that the issue is still open
16:21:31 <Julian> q+
16:21:42 <rubys> ack next
16:21:53 <rubys> ack next
16:21:59 <MikeSmith> action-96: there are still references to Origin in the spec, but as far as this particular, it has essentically been "overtaken by events" -- changes in the spec have rendered the particular action moot
16:22:00 <trackbot> ACTION-96 to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec notes added
16:22:02 <shepazu> q-
16:22:04 <shepazu> q-
16:22:19 <rubys> julian: is origin now known as sec-from?
16:22:37 <mjs> q+
16:22:49 <rubys> rubys: my understanding is that sec-from addresses the origin use header use cases
16:22:53 <rubys> ack next
16:23:33 <rubys> mjs: indeed sec-from is a header that addresses the same use case, and is written in a way that won't need to be referenced from the HTML spec
16:23:51 <mjs> q-
16:23:54 <rubys> close action-96
16:23:54 <trackbot> ACTION-96 to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec closed
16:23:55 <MikeSmith> close action-96
16:23:55 <trackbot> ACTION-96 to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec closed
16:24:08 <rubys> topic: ISSUE-35/ACTION-138: Produce a matrix based on Henri's work [Steve Faulkner] 
16:24:20 <rubys> paulc: can anyone give us an update?
16:24:38 <rubys> mcooper: actively being developed and is being merged with other work
16:24:53 <rubys> paulc: suggest moving this out two weeks...
16:25:12 <rubys> action-138 due +2 weeks
16:25:12 <trackbot> ACTION-138 Produce a matrix based on Henri's work due date now +2 weeks
16:25:18 <MikeSmith> action-138 due 2009-09-24
16:25:18 <trackbot> ACTION-138 Produce a matrix based on Henri's work due date now 2009-09-24
16:25:51 <rubys> topic: ISSUE-32/ACTION-136: Send draft to the list, due in three weeks [Matthew May] 
16:26:14 <rubys> mattmay: I've pushed it out a week
16:26:25 <Laura> Draft on wai-xtech http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2009Sep/0054.html
16:26:27 <rubys> topic: ACTION-38: Chairs to review need for amending charter with Director [Paul Cotton] 
16:26:27 <MikeSmith> action-136?
16:26:27 <trackbot> ACTION-136 -- Matthew May to send draft to the list, due in three weeks -- due 2009-09-17 -- OPEN
16:26:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/136
16:27:27 <rubys> paulc: I've double checked and Microsoft does not wish to pursue this issue, and I've checked and don't believe that the creation of task forces will require a charter update
16:27:52 <rubys> paulc: issue-64 notes a potential charter concern, and we dealt with that last week and there is a call for consensus open...
16:28:07 <rubys> paulc: I don't believe that there is any reason to keep this action open...
16:29:03 <Julian> action-38?
16:29:03 <trackbot> ACTION-38 -- Paul Cotton to chairs to review need for amending charter with Director -- due 2009-09-10 -- OPEN
16:29:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/38
16:29:23 <rubys> jerryezrol: closing this action doesn't affect issue-64
16:29:34 <rubys> paulc: no, I propose that we close action-38
16:29:37 <MikeSmith> close action-38
16:29:38 <trackbot> ACTION-38 Chairs to review need for amending charter with Director closed
16:29:46 <rubys> paulc: any other actions?
16:29:46 <ChrisWilson> ChrisWilson has joined #html-wg
16:30:04 <rubys> topic: ISSUE 78: Spec should use a term other than "URL" for Web Addresses 
16:30:11 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:30:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:30:17 <MikeSmith> issue-78?
16:30:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-78 -- Spec should use a term other than "URL" for Web Addresses -- RAISED
16:30:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/78
16:30:28 <MikeSmith> issue-56?
16:30:28 <trackbot> ISSUE-56 -- Bring "URLs" section/definition and IRI specification in alignment. -- OPEN
16:30:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56
16:30:53 <rubys> paulc: is this a dupe of issue-56 (per DanC's note to the list)?
16:31:07 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:31:11 <rubys> mike: there are two different issues... issue-56 is about the spec text, issue-78 is about the term.
16:31:12 <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
16:31:12 <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
16:32:07 <DanC> you really want 2 separate issues? 2 separate discussions? I don't. But oh well.
16:32:08 <rubys> paulc: so strongly related, but not a dupe?
16:32:21 <rubys> mike: yes
16:33:34 <rubys> paulc: these issues can be addressed separately....
16:33:53 <rubys> paulc: at the moment, neither have actions?
16:34:02 <rubys> mike: not at the moment
16:34:14 <rubys> topic: Review of issues proposed to be closed: NONE.
16:34:30 <rubys> paul: no issues were no nominated this week
16:34:40 <MikeSmith> issue-78: during 2009-09-10 telcon we resolved that this issue is not a duplication of issue 56 and so it should be kept open
16:34:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-78 Spec should use a term other than "URL" for Web Addresses notes added
16:34:41 <rubys> topic: Joint HTML and PF WG Accessibility Task Force
16:35:23 <rubys> paulc: co-chairs had an (implicit) action item to discuss how to proceed, and I've sent an email to the list with an 8 point outline, and the PF working group agrees
16:36:07 <rubys> paulc: the only thing holding the co-chairs back is further comment (if any) and an action on plh to check into from a patent policy point of view
16:36:28 <rubys> action: plh look into some questions we have about how the W3C Patent Policy obligations would apply to a joint TF. 
16:36:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Look into some questions we have about how the W3C Patent Policy obligations would apply to a joint TF.  [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2009-09-17].
16:37:30 <rubys> mcooper: plh suggested that this could be simply a task force of the html working group
16:37:58 <kliehm> Philippe's response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0460.html
16:38:01 <rubys> mcooper: that might work, but I think the PF working group would prefer a joint maindate
16:38:10 <rubys> s/maindate/mandate/
16:39:23 <rubys> paulc: the suggestion was a way to make the patent policy issue go away... should we revisit this next week?
16:39:56 <rubys> mcooper: we won't have a teleconference next week... I would hate to have this delayed for two weeks...
16:40:38 <rubys> rubys: can we start out with an HTML task force and change it if (and only if) there is an objection?
16:40:53 <rubys> rubys: mike: I would suggest that we resolve this up front
16:41:03 <rubys> rubys: paulc: I agree with mike
16:41:38 <rubys> paulc: mcooper, please reply to plh's note on the list
16:43:21 <rubys> close action 142
16:43:34 <rubys> topic: HTML WG Testing Task Force 
16:44:07 <rubys> paulc: looking for volunteers, already have one (Jason)
16:44:40 <rubys> paulc: [notes discussion that has already occurred on the list]
16:44:47 <rubys> paulc: any comments on the call?
16:45:02 <rubys> paulc: volunteers should respond either to the co-chairs or the list
16:45:25 <rubys> paulc: I recommend that the co-chairs simply set up this task force
16:45:42 <rubys> paulc: I'm aware of some w3c work in the past week... any update?
16:46:06 <rubys> doug: we are not quite production ready, we should ready to discuss it on the 15th
16:47:12 <takkaria> I volunteered a while ago to co-ordinate testing but haven't had the time
16:47:18 <rubys> paulc: should we take an action to bring an action to the working group.
16:47:39 <takkaria> and we had a decent conversation on this channel before the telecon which should probably be posted to the list in summarised form
16:47:40 <rubys> action: paulc to get co-chairs to bring forward a concrete proposal for a testing task force (including scope)
16:47:40 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - paulc
16:48:01 <MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
16:48:21 <rubys> action: paul to get co-chairs to bring forward a concrete proposal for a testing task force (including scope)
16:48:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-143 - Get co-chairs to bring forward a concrete proposal for a testing task force (including scope) [on Paul Cotton - due 2009-09-17].
16:48:45 <rubys> topic: Scribe for next meeting 
16:48:59 <rubys> paulc: who is available for next week?
16:49:08 <MikeSmith> zakim, pick a victim
16:49:08 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisWilson
16:49:32 <MikeSmith> zakim, pick a victim
16:49:32 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mjs
16:49:50 <rubys> paulc: I believe that we are ready to adjourn
16:49:53 <Zakim> -Rich
16:49:54 <Zakim> -Julian
16:49:54 <Zakim> -Matt
16:49:55 <Zakim> -jerryEzrol
16:49:55 <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
16:49:55 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:49:56 <rubys> paulc: adjourned
16:49:57 <Zakim> -adrian
16:49:58 <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
16:49:58 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has left #html-wg
16:50:00 <Zakim> -Shepazu
16:50:02 <Zakim> -kliehm
16:50:04 <Zakim> -Paul_Cotton
16:50:06 <Zakim> -mjs
16:50:08 <Zakim> -Sam
16:50:10 <Zakim> -Eliot_Graff
16:50:12 <Zakim> -Mike
16:50:14 <Zakim> -laura
16:50:16 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
16:50:18 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.703.234.aaaa, Matt, Cooper, Mike, Sam, +1.218.340.aacc, Julian, mjs, Shepazu, Paul_Cotton, +1.425.614.aaff, Eliot_Graff, adrian, laura, Rich, jerryEzrol,
16:50:21 <Zakim> ... Radhika_Roy, kliehm, ChrisWilson
16:50:24 <rubys> rrsagent, publish minutes
16:50:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-html-wg-minutes.html rubys
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16:54:30 <DanC> Meeting: HTML WG weekly
16:54:35 <DanC> ^that's how you set  the title
16:54:45 <DanC> as to chopping stuff off the beginning, I'm not sure how
16:55:01 <DanC> Chair: paulc 
16:55:13 <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:55:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
16:55:41 <rubys> ok, close enough then.  Thanks!
17:00:25 <DanC> close action-142
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17:00:33 <trackbot> ACTION-142 Look into some questions we have about how the W3C Patent Policy obligations would apply to a joint TF. closed
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17:18:57 <cardona507> good morning - have I entirely missed the telcon?
17:19:15 <Julian> it started 80 minutes ago
17:21:05 <cardona507> is it too late to participate - I don't want to jeopardize my good standing.
17:22:52 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
17:22:53 <Julian> your "good standing" does not depend on attending telcos
17:22:59 <Zakim> + +1.831.454.aaaa
17:23:23 <Zakim> - +1.831.454.aaaa
17:23:24 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
17:23:24 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.831.454.aaaa
17:23:46 <Julian> maybe I should also mention it stopped 20 minutes ago
17:24:20 <cardona507> Julian - what does good standing depend on?
17:25:01 <Julian> i dont think it depends on anything in this WG, otherwise we wouldn't hundreds of members in good standing
17:34:13 <mjs> this WG is basically exempted from the normal "good standing" rules by charter
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