21:00:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
21:00:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-webapps-irc
21:00:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:00:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webapps
21:00:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAPP
21:00:56 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
21:00:57 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
21:00:57 <trackbot> Date: 09 September 2009
21:01:05 <shepazu> Zakim, this will be DOM3
21:01:05 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM scheduled to start now
21:01:12 <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu 
21:01:12 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
21:01:13 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM has now started
21:01:14 <Zakim> +Shepazu
21:01:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:02:10 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
21:02:10 <Zakim> +smaug; got it
21:03:18 <shepazu> chair: shepazu 
21:04:00 <shepazu> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JulSep/0265.html
21:10:19 <smaug> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-DOM-Level-3-Core-20040407/core.html#DOMObject
21:15:50 <smaug> ACTION: smaug to check gecko's key event handling during composition events
21:15:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-401 - Check gecko's key event handling during composition events [on Olli Pettay - due 2009-09-16].
21:20:17 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
21:21:07 <Travis> Travis has joined #webapps
21:21:12 <Travis> Hi.
21:21:21 <shepazu> Topic: New WD of DOM3 Events
21:22:06 <smaug> shepazu: we have a new WD
21:23:10 <smaug> shepazu: asking internalization people to comment about it
21:23:13 <shepazu> Topic: 'select' event
21:23:43 <smaug> shepazu: did some testing on select event and made some changing to the WD
21:23:45 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#event-type-select
21:24:41 <smaug> shepazu: it is only available on certain elements
21:24:57 <smaug> shepazu: and I added .detail 
21:25:26 <smaug> smaug .detail is long!
21:31:27 <smaug> shepazu: hard to define when mousedown/up generates a click
21:32:18 <smaug> shepazu: with select I'd like to know what has been selected
21:32:29 <smaug> Travis: just use HTML5 for that
21:36:06 <smaug> shepazu: do we want to overload select event for mouse and keyboard selection?
21:37:03 <smaug> shepazu: I'll have to look at HTML5 about this
21:37:38 <smaug> shepazu: what if there is an image selected?
21:37:49 <smaug> Travis: it is included
21:38:20 <smaug> shepazu: what happens when pasting that data to somewhere?
21:38:40 <smaug> Travis: UA must put the data in all possible formats to clipboard
21:38:49 <Travis> Selection in HTML5: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#selection
21:39:11 <smaug> shepazu: yeah, relates to clipboard handling
21:42:32 <smaug> shepazu: there are whole range of options for copy-paste and data handling
21:43:44 <smaug> shepazu: so is it worth worth saying author can get the text somehow?
21:44:05 <smaug> Travis: I'd just rather use other mechanism
21:44:14 <smaug> shepazu: I'll probably add reference to HTML5
21:44:53 <smaug> shepazu: does the select event work everywhere, or only with form elements?
21:45:45 <smaug> Travis: IE fires an event to body or document
21:47:18 <smaug> shepazu: maybe I'll say that it is up to UA to decide the target
21:47:51 <shepazu> Topic: event order
21:48:25 <smaug> shepazu: there is event order defined for mouse, key and composition events
21:48:29 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-mouseevent-event-order
21:48:31 <smaug> shepazu: ... in the latest draft
21:48:55 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-keyboard-event-order
21:49:10 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-composition-event-order
21:51:37 <smaug> shepazu: I added a list of events, I'm planning to add diagrams
21:52:16 <smaug> shepazu: is this too much detail, or not enough?
21:52:26 <smaug> Travis: certainly helpful 
21:52:30 <smaug> smaug: I agree
21:53:29 <smaug> shepazu: will get more complicated once I start define the interaction between different event types
21:55:53 <smaug> Topic: webidl
21:56:04 <smaug> shepazu: I was thinking to use webidl in the spec
21:56:08 <smaug> Travis: do it!
21:56:27 <smaug> Travis: make sure to use the latest editor's draft
21:58:25 <shepazu> Topic: vendor extensions
21:58:52 <smaug> smaug: I agree, use webidl
22:00:09 <smaug> Travis: why are we adding namespaces to the spec?
22:01:04 <smaug> shepazu: I'd have to go and look back about de-centralization
22:01:38 <smaug> shepazu: having namespace support allows people to add their own events
22:02:10 <smaug> shepazu: JS libraries can add their own events
22:02:33 <smaug> shepazu: Anne would like to remove namespaces
22:03:24 <annevk> I brought it up a few times, I'm certainly not the only one
22:03:38 <annevk> e.g. I'm pretty sure Maciej agrees with me
22:04:10 <smaug> Travis: so web pages can implement their own events without interfering with others 
22:04:11 <annevk> and Ian, etc. see the old threads
22:04:53 <smaug> Travis: though, isn't prefix + event name the same thing.
22:05:05 <smaug> as namespace + event name
22:07:01 <smaug> Travis: I'll have our team reviewing the draft
22:08:04 <smaug> shepazu: the draft has been around for a long time, and namespaces have been there
22:08:34 <smaug> Travis: I think it is ok to keep namespaces
22:09:37 <smaug> Travis: vendors could continue to use prefixes, or use namespaces
22:09:44 <annevk> shepazu, objections to namespaces have likewise been around for a long time
22:09:48 <annevk> that's not a reason :)
22:10:16 <shepazu> annevk, people use them in production code, that is a reason
22:10:23 <shepazu> Topic: keyboard layout
22:10:27 <annevk> not on web sites
22:10:36 <annevk> there's no browser that is shipping with namespace support
22:10:44 <annevk> there's no reason for us to implement them
22:10:53 <shepazu> annevk, if you want to join the telcon, then do so
22:11:00 <smaug> (the world is not just about browser)
22:11:03 <smaug> (the world is not just about browsers)
22:11:38 <smaug> shepazu: there is the case where people are using keyboard layout
22:11:49 <annevk> shepazu, midnight here
22:11:56 <smaug> shepazu: and we did decide that we don't cover that
22:12:23 <smaug> shepazu: but I added something about keyboard layout
22:12:29 <annevk> (not sure what that has to do with anything)
22:12:54 <smaug> shepazu: I have the idea for another spec to define keyboard layout handling in web page
22:13:26 <smaug> shepazu: the keyboard layout section is just a hint for authors
22:13:33 <smaug> shepazu: any objections to put that
22:13:38 <smaug> Travis: I like it
22:13:49 <smaug> shepazu: I'll mark it as informative
22:14:15 <shepazu> Topic: DOMContentLoaded, DOMWindowClose, and AfterPaint
22:15:19 <smaug> smaug: DOMContentLoaded is already defined in HTML5
22:15:29 <smaug> shepazu: SVG would benefit it
22:16:47 <smaug> shepazu: there is a good reason to have events for "everything is in place" and "page is rendered"
22:18:39 <smaug> Travis: we were looking at DOMContentLoaded
22:20:34 <smaug> Travis: HTML5 doesn't define whether DOMContentLoaded before or after loading CSS
22:21:24 <smaug> Travis: jQuery people wanted to have an event for "CSS loaded"
22:21:39 <smaug> Travis: maybe CSSContentLoaded?
22:24:49 <smaug> smaug: there is the readyState for document
22:25:12 <smaug> smaug: maybe that kind of mechanism could be reused
22:25:25 <smaug> Travis: I'll post something to mailing list
22:25:56 <smaug> shepazu: I'd call it StyleContentLoaded
22:26:59 <smaug> smaug: StyleContentLoaded sounds useful, but should go to HTML5
22:27:38 <smaug> Topic: other things
22:27:50 <smaug> Travis: about resize event
22:28:24 <smaug> Travis: only IE supports resize on elements
22:29:15 <smaug> Travis: IE fires it for example when <div> is resized.
22:31:33 <smaug> shepazu: could you send an email to the list
22:32:02 <smaug> smaug: resize on elements might be implement on gecko soon
22:34:32 <smaug> Travis: .detail on resize?
22:34:39 <smaug> smaug: on gecko they are just normal events
22:35:33 <smaug> Travis: should composition events bubble?
22:35:40 <smaug> smaug: I think they do on gecko
22:35:54 <smaug> Travis: what about cancelling them?
22:36:12 <smaug> shepazu: maybe they can't be cancellable
22:36:51 <smaug> shepazu: not sure if browser can control IME
22:37:42 <smaug> Travis: you definitely don't want to cancel the compositionend 
22:38:45 <smaug> shepazu: but what if someone cancel composition
22:39:29 <smaug> shepazu: should ask masayuki about composition events
22:40:20 <smaug> shepazu: there many different kinds of IMEs
22:41:43 <smaug> shepazu: maybe compostionupdate should not be cancelable, others should
22:42:12 <smaug> Travis: cancelling compositionstart should prevent IME?
22:42:31 <smaug> Travis: default action is to launch IME
22:43:13 <smaug> Travis: compostionupdate could be not cancelable for now, unless there is some usecase
22:43:31 <smaug> Travis: end would be cancelable
22:45:25 <heycam> heycam has joined #webapps
22:50:07 <smaug> smaug: would be good to be able cancel compositionend
22:50:36 <smaug> shepazu: I think we agreed about canceling events
22:51:16 <smaug> Travis: add a row for all the events  about default actions
22:52:26 <smaug> ACTION: travis to send email about StyleContentLoaded
22:52:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-402 - Send email about StyleContentLoaded [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-09-16].
22:52:36 <smaug> ACTION: travis to send email about resize event
22:52:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-403 - Send email about resize event [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-09-16].
22:53:18 <smaug> ACTION: travis to send email about namespaces, and vendor prefixes
22:53:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-404 - Send email about namespaces, and vendor prefixes [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-09-16].
22:54:16 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
22:54:21 <Zakim> -smaug
22:54:29 <Zakim> -Shepazu
22:54:30 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM has ended
22:54:31 <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
22:54:31 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
22:54:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, smaug, [Microsoft]
22:54:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
22:54:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
22:54:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
22:54:33 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-webapps-actions.rdf :
22:54:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: smaug to check gecko's key event handling during composition events [1]
22:54:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-webapps-irc#T21-15-50
22:54:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: travis to send email about StyleContentLoaded [2]
22:54:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-webapps-irc#T22-52-26
22:54:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: travis to send email about resize event [3]
22:54:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-webapps-irc#T22-52-36
22:54:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: travis to send email about namespaces, and vendor prefixes [4]
22:54:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-webapps-irc#T22-53-18
22:54:33 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is