IRC log of webapps on 2009-09-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:00:52 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webapps
21:00:52 [RRSAgent]
logging to
21:00:54 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
21:00:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #webapps
21:00:56 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAPP
21:00:56 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
21:00:57 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
21:00:57 [trackbot]
Date: 09 September 2009
21:01:05 [shepazu]
Zakim, this will be DOM3
21:01:05 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM scheduled to start now
21:01:12 [shepazu]
Zakim, call shepazu
21:01:12 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; the call is being made
21:01:13 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM has now started
21:01:14 [Zakim]
21:01:55 [Zakim]
21:02:10 [smaug]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
21:02:10 [Zakim]
+smaug; got it
21:03:18 [shepazu]
chair: shepazu
21:04:00 [shepazu]
21:10:19 [smaug]
21:15:50 [smaug]
ACTION: smaug to check gecko's key event handling during composition events
21:15:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-401 - Check gecko's key event handling during composition events [on Olli Pettay - due 2009-09-16].
21:20:17 [Zakim]
21:21:07 [Travis]
Travis has joined #webapps
21:21:12 [Travis]
21:21:21 [shepazu]
Topic: New WD of DOM3 Events
21:22:06 [smaug]
shepazu: we have a new WD
21:23:10 [smaug]
shepazu: asking internalization people to comment about it
21:23:13 [shepazu]
Topic: 'select' event
21:23:43 [smaug]
shepazu: did some testing on select event and made some changing to the WD
21:23:45 [shepazu]
21:24:41 [smaug]
shepazu: it is only available on certain elements
21:24:57 [smaug]
shepazu: and I added .detail
21:25:26 [smaug]
smaug .detail is long!
21:31:27 [smaug]
shepazu: hard to define when mousedown/up generates a click
21:32:18 [smaug]
shepazu: with select I'd like to know what has been selected
21:32:29 [smaug]
Travis: just use HTML5 for that
21:36:06 [smaug]
shepazu: do we want to overload select event for mouse and keyboard selection?
21:37:03 [smaug]
shepazu: I'll have to look at HTML5 about this
21:37:38 [smaug]
shepazu: what if there is an image selected?
21:37:49 [smaug]
Travis: it is included
21:38:20 [smaug]
shepazu: what happens when pasting that data to somewhere?
21:38:40 [smaug]
Travis: UA must put the data in all possible formats to clipboard
21:38:49 [Travis]
Selection in HTML5:
21:39:11 [smaug]
shepazu: yeah, relates to clipboard handling
21:42:32 [smaug]
shepazu: there are whole range of options for copy-paste and data handling
21:43:44 [smaug]
shepazu: so is it worth worth saying author can get the text somehow?
21:44:05 [smaug]
Travis: I'd just rather use other mechanism
21:44:14 [smaug]
shepazu: I'll probably add reference to HTML5
21:44:53 [smaug]
shepazu: does the select event work everywhere, or only with form elements?
21:45:45 [smaug]
Travis: IE fires an event to body or document
21:47:18 [smaug]
shepazu: maybe I'll say that it is up to UA to decide the target
21:47:51 [shepazu]
Topic: event order
21:48:25 [smaug]
shepazu: there is event order defined for mouse, key and composition events
21:48:29 [shepazu]
21:48:31 [smaug]
shepazu: ... in the latest draft
21:48:55 [shepazu]
21:49:10 [shepazu]
21:51:37 [smaug]
shepazu: I added a list of events, I'm planning to add diagrams
21:52:16 [smaug]
shepazu: is this too much detail, or not enough?
21:52:26 [smaug]
Travis: certainly helpful
21:52:30 [smaug]
smaug: I agree
21:53:29 [smaug]
shepazu: will get more complicated once I start define the interaction between different event types
21:55:53 [smaug]
Topic: webidl
21:56:04 [smaug]
shepazu: I was thinking to use webidl in the spec
21:56:08 [smaug]
Travis: do it!
21:56:27 [smaug]
Travis: make sure to use the latest editor's draft
21:58:25 [shepazu]
Topic: vendor extensions
21:58:52 [smaug]
smaug: I agree, use webidl
22:00:09 [smaug]
Travis: why are we adding namespaces to the spec?
22:01:04 [smaug]
shepazu: I'd have to go and look back about de-centralization
22:01:38 [smaug]
shepazu: having namespace support allows people to add their own events
22:02:10 [smaug]
shepazu: JS libraries can add their own events
22:02:33 [smaug]
shepazu: Anne would like to remove namespaces
22:03:24 [annevk]
I brought it up a few times, I'm certainly not the only one
22:03:38 [annevk]
e.g. I'm pretty sure Maciej agrees with me
22:04:10 [smaug]
Travis: so web pages can implement their own events without interfering with others
22:04:11 [annevk]
and Ian, etc. see the old threads
22:04:53 [smaug]
Travis: though, isn't prefix + event name the same thing.
22:05:05 [smaug]
as namespace + event name
22:07:01 [smaug]
Travis: I'll have our team reviewing the draft
22:08:04 [smaug]
shepazu: the draft has been around for a long time, and namespaces have been there
22:08:34 [smaug]
Travis: I think it is ok to keep namespaces
22:09:37 [smaug]
Travis: vendors could continue to use prefixes, or use namespaces
22:09:44 [annevk]
shepazu, objections to namespaces have likewise been around for a long time
22:09:48 [annevk]
that's not a reason :)
22:10:16 [shepazu]
annevk, people use them in production code, that is a reason
22:10:23 [shepazu]
Topic: keyboard layout
22:10:27 [annevk]
not on web sites
22:10:36 [annevk]
there's no browser that is shipping with namespace support
22:10:44 [annevk]
there's no reason for us to implement them
22:10:53 [shepazu]
annevk, if you want to join the telcon, then do so
22:11:00 [smaug]
(the world is not just about browser)
22:11:03 [smaug]
(the world is not just about browsers)
22:11:38 [smaug]
shepazu: there is the case where people are using keyboard layout
22:11:49 [annevk]
shepazu, midnight here
22:11:56 [smaug]
shepazu: and we did decide that we don't cover that
22:12:23 [smaug]
shepazu: but I added something about keyboard layout
22:12:29 [annevk]
(not sure what that has to do with anything)
22:12:54 [smaug]
shepazu: I have the idea for another spec to define keyboard layout handling in web page
22:13:26 [smaug]
shepazu: the keyboard layout section is just a hint for authors
22:13:33 [smaug]
shepazu: any objections to put that
22:13:38 [smaug]
Travis: I like it
22:13:49 [smaug]
shepazu: I'll mark it as informative
22:14:15 [shepazu]
Topic: DOMContentLoaded, DOMWindowClose, and AfterPaint
22:15:19 [smaug]
smaug: DOMContentLoaded is already defined in HTML5
22:15:29 [smaug]
shepazu: SVG would benefit it
22:16:47 [smaug]
shepazu: there is a good reason to have events for "everything is in place" and "page is rendered"
22:18:39 [smaug]
Travis: we were looking at DOMContentLoaded
22:20:34 [smaug]
Travis: HTML5 doesn't define whether DOMContentLoaded before or after loading CSS
22:21:24 [smaug]
Travis: jQuery people wanted to have an event for "CSS loaded"
22:21:39 [smaug]
Travis: maybe CSSContentLoaded?
22:24:49 [smaug]
smaug: there is the readyState for document
22:25:12 [smaug]
smaug: maybe that kind of mechanism could be reused
22:25:25 [smaug]
Travis: I'll post something to mailing list
22:25:56 [smaug]
shepazu: I'd call it StyleContentLoaded
22:26:59 [smaug]
smaug: StyleContentLoaded sounds useful, but should go to HTML5
22:27:38 [smaug]
Topic: other things
22:27:50 [smaug]
Travis: about resize event
22:28:24 [smaug]
Travis: only IE supports resize on elements
22:29:15 [smaug]
Travis: IE fires it for example when <div> is resized.
22:31:33 [smaug]
shepazu: could you send an email to the list
22:32:02 [smaug]
smaug: resize on elements might be implement on gecko soon
22:34:32 [smaug]
Travis: .detail on resize?
22:34:39 [smaug]
smaug: on gecko they are just normal events
22:35:33 [smaug]
Travis: should composition events bubble?
22:35:40 [smaug]
smaug: I think they do on gecko
22:35:54 [smaug]
Travis: what about cancelling them?
22:36:12 [smaug]
shepazu: maybe they can't be cancellable
22:36:51 [smaug]
shepazu: not sure if browser can control IME
22:37:42 [smaug]
Travis: you definitely don't want to cancel the compositionend
22:38:45 [smaug]
shepazu: but what if someone cancel composition
22:39:29 [smaug]
shepazu: should ask masayuki about composition events
22:40:20 [smaug]
shepazu: there many different kinds of IMEs
22:41:43 [smaug]
shepazu: maybe compostionupdate should not be cancelable, others should
22:42:12 [smaug]
Travis: cancelling compositionstart should prevent IME?
22:42:31 [smaug]
Travis: default action is to launch IME
22:43:13 [smaug]
Travis: compostionupdate could be not cancelable for now, unless there is some usecase
22:43:31 [smaug]
Travis: end would be cancelable
22:45:25 [heycam]
heycam has joined #webapps
22:50:07 [smaug]
smaug: would be good to be able cancel compositionend
22:50:36 [smaug]
shepazu: I think we agreed about canceling events
22:51:16 [smaug]
Travis: add a row for all the events about default actions
22:52:26 [smaug]
ACTION: travis to send email about StyleContentLoaded
22:52:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-402 - Send email about StyleContentLoaded [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-09-16].
22:52:36 [smaug]
ACTION: travis to send email about resize event
22:52:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-403 - Send email about resize event [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-09-16].
22:53:18 [smaug]
ACTION: travis to send email about namespaces, and vendor prefixes
22:53:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-404 - Send email about namespaces, and vendor prefixes [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-09-16].
22:54:16 [Zakim]
22:54:21 [Zakim]
22:54:29 [Zakim]
22:54:30 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM has ended
22:54:31 [shepazu]
trackbot, end telcon
22:54:31 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
22:54:32 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shepazu, smaug, [Microsoft]
22:54:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
22:54:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
22:54:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
22:54:33 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in :
22:54:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: smaug to check gecko's key event handling during composition events [1]
22:54:33 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
22:54:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: travis to send email about StyleContentLoaded [2]
22:54:33 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
22:54:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: travis to send email about resize event [3]
22:54:33 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
22:54:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: travis to send email about namespaces, and vendor prefixes [4]
22:54:33 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
22:54:33 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is