19:53:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ssn
19:53:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-ssn-irc
19:53:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ssn
19:54:27 <kerry> zakim, this will be INC_SSN
19:54:27 <Zakim> ok, kerry; I see INC_SSN()4:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
19:54:44 <kerry> agenda + roll call
19:54:59 <kerry> agenda +f2f
19:55:18 <kerry> agenda+ ssn09
19:55:31 <kerry> agenda +use cases
19:55:40 <kerry> agenda +aob
19:55:50 <kerry> agenda + next week: no meeting
19:55:58 <kerry> agenda
19:56:08 <kerry> zakim, agenda?
19:56:08 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
19:56:09 <Zakim> 1. roll call [from kerry]
19:56:09 <Zakim> 2. f2f [from kerry]
19:56:10 <Zakim> 3. ssn09 [from kerry]
19:56:10 <Zakim> 4. use cases [from kerry]
19:56:12 <Zakim> 5. aob [from kerry]
19:56:12 <Zakim> 6. next week: no meeting [from kerry]
19:56:46 <Zakim> INC_SSN()4:00PM has now started
19:56:53 <Zakim> + +1.206.662.aaaa
19:57:05 <kerry> meeting SSNXG 09-Sep-2009
19:57:14 <kerry> chair: kerry
19:57:20 <Zakim> + +1.410.218.aabb
19:57:31 <rgarcia> rgarcia has joined #ssn
19:57:38 <kgann> +1-410-218-3315
19:57:44 <kelsey> kelsey has joined #ssn
19:57:44 <Arthur> Arthur has joined #ssn
19:57:56 <kerry>  meeting: SSNXG 09-Sep-2009
19:58:44 <Zakim> +??P3
19:58:52 <Zakim> - +1.410.218.aabb
19:59:14 <Zakim> + +1.410.218.aacc
19:59:16 <Zakim> +??P4
19:59:29 <Zakim> + +200000aadd
19:59:38 <rgarcia> zakim, ??P4 is me
19:59:38 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it
20:00:31 <Zakim> - +200000aadd
20:00:51 <krzysztof_j> krzysztof_j has joined #ssn
20:00:57 <Zakim> +??P5
20:00:58 <kerry> zakim, who's noisy
20:00:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', kerry
20:01:20 <kgann> I heard noisy too!
20:01:29 <krp> krp has joined #ssn
20:01:40 <kerry> zakim, ??p3 is me
20:01:40 <Zakim> +kerry; got it
20:01:50 <mcompton> mcompton has joined #ssn
20:01:53 <kerry> zakim, who's noisy
20:01:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', kerry
20:02:08 <kerry> akim, whi is noisy?
20:02:11 <krzysztof_j> hi
20:02:15 <Arthur> zakim, +200000aadd is me
20:02:15 <Zakim> sorry, Arthur, I do not recognize a party named '+200000aadd'
20:02:16 <kerry> zakim, who is noisy
20:02:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', kerry
20:02:26 <rgarcia> zakim, who is making noise
20:02:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', rgarcia
20:02:31 <kerry> zakim, who is talking?
20:02:41 <Zakim> kerry, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
20:02:43 <Arthur> zakim, ??P5 is me
20:02:43 <Zakim> +Arthur; got it
20:02:49 <Zakim> -rgarcia
20:03:03 <kgann> no sound for me either
20:03:35 <Zakim> - +1.410.218.aacc
20:03:55 <cory> cory has joined #ssn
20:03:58 <kgann> sorry - my cell phone singal is fading...
20:04:01 <Zakim> +??P2
20:04:16 <rgarcia> zakim, ??P2 is me
20:04:16 <Zakim> +rgarcia; got it
20:04:21 <kerry> can you hear me as chair?
20:04:24 <Rodrigo> Rodrigo has joined #ssn
20:04:32 <Zakim> +??P4
20:04:47 <victor> victor has joined #ssn
20:04:58 <victor> hi all
20:05:02 <Zakim> + +0797376aaee
20:05:08 <Zakim> + +1.937.775.aaff
20:05:18 <Zakim> + +1.410.218.aagg
20:05:21 <kerry> can you hear me?
20:05:25 <Arthur> i can hear you
20:05:25 <krp> Hi Kerry, just on, yes I can hear you
20:05:26 <krzysztof_j> yes
20:05:31 <krzysztof_j> but very bad :(
20:05:43 <kgann> i'm back now...
20:05:45 <krp> A bit muffled, but not too terrible
20:05:47 <kerry> ok - 'ill use the irc a lot
20:05:54 <kerry> please look at it!
20:05:55 <kgann> ok
20:06:14 <kerry> agenda?
20:06:21 <Zakim> +[CTIC]
20:06:23 <Zakim> - +1.410.218.aagg
20:06:26 <Zakim> +??P12
20:06:36 <victor> zakim, CTIC is temporarily me
20:06:36 <Zakim> +victor; got it
20:06:44 <kerry> please keep eye on irc as voice quality is poor
20:06:56 <kgann> my cell phone singal is very weak, I'll stay on irc from now on...
20:06:59 <krzysztof_j> zakim, mute me
20:06:59 <Zakim> sorry, krzysztof_j, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
20:06:59 <kerry> roll call?
20:07:00 <krp> zakim, +0797376aaee is me
20:07:00 <mcompton> zakim, ??P12 is me
20:07:01 <Zakim> +krp; got it
20:07:01 <Zakim> +mcompton; got it
20:07:18 <kerry> : australia
20:07:22 <kerry> +kerry
20:07:36 <Arthur> zakim, who is making noise
20:07:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', Arthur
20:07:57 <kerry> west coast us
20:08:03 <Zakim> + +1.410.218.aahh
20:08:04 <kerry> east coast us
20:08:27 <Zakim> + +34.91.633.aaii
20:08:30 <kerry> +britain?
20:08:54 <kerry> europe
20:09:21 <kerry> is that it?
20:09:37 <kerry> echo..
20:09:41 <kerry> who is talking?
20:09:47 <kerry> zakim, who is talking?
20:09:52 <ocorcho> ocorcho has joined #ssn
20:09:59 <Zakim> kerry, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.206.662.aaaa (4%), kerry (64%), +34.91.633.aaii (9%)
20:10:09 <Zakim> + +98439aajj
20:10:19 <ocorcho> zakim, +34.91.633.aaii is me
20:10:19 <Zakim> +ocorcho; got it
20:10:21 <Rodrigo> Zakim, +98439aajj is me
20:10:21 <Zakim> +Rodrigo; got it
20:10:25 <ocorcho> zakim, mute me
20:10:25 <Zakim> ocorcho should now be muted
20:10:27 <Zakim> -??P4
20:10:38 <krp> Yes, that's better
20:10:45 <kerry> sarting.
20:10:50 <kerry> agenda?
20:11:01 <kgann> It's good now...
20:11:19 <Zakim> +??P4
20:11:30 <krzysztof_j> zakim, +??P4 is me
20:11:30 <Zakim> sorry, krzysztof_j, I do not recognize a party named '+??P4'
20:11:30 <Arthur> topic: f2f
20:11:41 <Zakim> - +1.410.218.aahh
20:11:45 <kerry> comment on f2f anyone?
20:12:05 <kerry> topic : f2f
20:12:16 <kerry> no response?
20:12:20 <Zakim> + +1.301.497.aakk
20:12:35 <krp> Agenda looks better now, the more time for thrashing through details on ontology etc. the better!
20:12:44 <kerry> topic: ssn09
20:12:50 <kgann> i switch to my company's phone 301-497-2800
20:13:09 <kerry> topic: ssn09
20:13:25 <kerry> 11 submissions
20:13:33 <krzysztof_j> great!
20:13:44 <kgann> yeah!
20:13:50 <kerry> we decided to aceept everything ue the range
20:14:07 <kerry> some papers will be very short for pesentation
20:14:43 <kerry> early reg finshes this week
20:14:57 <kerry> aqny questions?
20:15:05 <ocorcho> zakim, unmute me
20:15:05 <Zakim> ocorcho should no longer be muted
20:15:07 <ocorcho> +2
20:15:09 <ocorcho> +q
20:15:39 <ocorcho> zakim, unmute me
20:15:39 <Zakim> ocorcho was not muted, ocorcho
20:15:39 <kerry> agenda not confimed 
20:15:45 <ocorcho> zakim, mute me
20:15:45 <Zakim> ocorcho should now be muted
20:15:48 <kerry> time is very short 
20:15:57 <kerry> little space only
20:16:10 <kgann> any registration fees for ssn09?
20:16:14 <kerry> one option would be to have no keynote?
20:16:20 <kerry> more discussion time
20:16:23 <kgann> how to register?
20:16:26 <ocorcho> 180$ if I am not wrong
20:16:33 <ocorcho> iswc2009.semanticweb.org
20:16:41 <kgann> thanks!
20:16:52 <ocorcho> I would prefer no keynote
20:17:01 <kgann> me too!
20:17:03 <ocorcho> but more discussion
20:17:03 <krzysztof_j> same for me
20:17:08 <krzysztof_j> ack
20:17:25 <kerry> ok -- i 'll raise with the other chairs
20:18:17 <kerry> thankyou those whu submitted
20:18:42 <kerry> tahnk you to reviewers, and kevin
20:18:51 <kerry> qustions?
20:19:09 <kerry> topic: use cases
20:19:34 <kerry> 3or 4 critical cases today
20:19:35 <Danh_DERI> Danh_DERI has joined #ssn
20:20:00 <kerry> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Favorite_Use_Cases_List
20:20:16 <kerry> look at that: quite along list of ideas
20:20:31 <kerry> have been asked to vote
20:21:09 <kerry> lots of ideas at  the bottom should be at the top
20:21:12 <Danh_DERI> I can't not dial in, it said Conference code is not valid
20:21:12 <Danh_DERI> I can't not dial in, it said Conference code is not valid
20:21:46 <kerry> danh -- perhaps we are 15 already?
20:22:05 <kerry> i am trying hard to get it all on irc anyway
20:22:10 <Danh_DERI> I suppose so
20:22:10 <Danh_DERI> I suppose so
20:23:23 <kerry> volunteer to lead discussion on use cases?
20:24:09 <kerry> is ther anyone with an interst who has not yet voted?
20:24:19 <ocorcho> I have not voted
20:24:25 <ocorcho> just arrived after a long time
20:24:26 <kgann> I haven't
20:24:28 <ocorcho> on holidays
20:24:36 <krp> Not voted yet either
20:24:39 <krzysztof_j> same for me (was on holidays)
20:24:53 <mcompton> me too
20:25:01 <ocorcho> probably I will go mostly for device discovery and data discovery use cases
20:25:08 <kelsey> what is the distinction between " Use Cases Receiving Votes" and " Candidate Use Cases"?  ...both have votes.
20:25:33 <kerry> dave, some of us didn't follow instructions
20:25:34 <rgarcia> No idea
20:25:50 <kerry> things from the bottom are moved to the top with the first vote.
20:26:05 <krp> Ah, so everything should be up top, since each has a vote
20:26:25 <victor> I suppose, fml stand for first, middle, last
20:26:38 <victor> so fml is not a vote
20:26:41 <krp> Good point Victor!
20:26:42 <mcompton> I think you're right victor
20:26:45 <rgarcia> :)
20:26:45 <krp> Ooops.
20:27:53 <kerry> vurge you to vote!
20:28:06 <kerry> urge to vote!
20:28:26 <krp> So these are our "most" important use cases against which we'll validate the ontologies...
20:28:33 <krzysztof_j> maybe we could use a doodle to vote for the use cases (would be easier)
20:28:36 <kerry> yes
20:29:01 <krp> ... because we don't expect to have the resource to work up enough coverage in use cases to derive requirements from
20:29:04 <kerry> actually i prefer this -- its very visible who and what
20:29:25 <rgarcia> The wiki is more informative
20:29:28 <krp> (in a moment, I'll just shift to a quiet room!)
20:29:34 <kerry> kevin -- can you talk?
20:30:40 <kerry> questions?
20:31:15 <kerry> select 3 or 4 to validate ontology against
20:31:52 <kerry> comment?
20:31:54 <mcompton> +q
20:32:02 <ocorcho> -q
20:32:18 <kerry> ack mcompton
20:32:59 <krp> Right, it's a chain that pulls in most of the other MMI use cases
20:33:24 <victor> I agree, use case 1 is a general use case 
20:33:32 <kerry> compton: the first use cases covers most of te others
20:33:46 <kerry> ack oscor
20:33:46 <ocorcho> no
20:33:53 <krp> But will breaking it down - and then presumably selecting just a few of the constituent parts - be as useful?
20:33:53 <kerry> ack ocorcho
20:34:08 <krp> I mean, we're not saying we don't want it to do the full set :)
20:34:48 <kerry> i suggest votes who choose use case 1 , also look further and choose more
20:34:56 <mcompton> +q
20:35:11 <kerry> ack mcompton
20:36:02 <kerry> zakim, who is talking?
20:36:13 <Zakim> kerry, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: kerry (34%), ??P4 (4%), mcompton (95%), ocorcho (56%)
20:36:44 <kerry> did anyone hear michael?
20:36:56 <krp> Not well enough
20:36:59 <mcompton> sorry ... seemed to echo
20:37:03 <kerry> oscar - pls mute !
20:37:03 <mcompton> I'll type
20:37:11 <victor> Ya lot of eco
20:37:25 <kerry> zakim, mute me
20:37:25 <Zakim> kerry should now be muted
20:37:41 <krp> Oscar, I think zakim unmuted you
20:37:57 <mcompton> Find a device outputing a certain type could be more general - find a device making the measurement we want, and if the output isn't the right type then compose with a function that transforms the type to what we want
20:38:06 <kerry> zakim, mute ocorcho
20:38:06 <Zakim> ocorcho should now be muted
20:38:13 <mcompton> or in another way alters/composes etc
20:38:38 <mcompton> when we say find ... do we really mean find and compose, or find and process to make what we want
20:38:55 <mcompton> ...this is more how, say, web services would view such a process
20:39:02 <rgarcia> I think that it is more the business logic of some function/service than the model of the ontology
20:39:25 <mcompton> not arguing that it's the ontolgy, it's part of the use case though
20:39:42 <mcompton> ...though in a second I'll argue that it's part of the ontly
20:39:50 <mcompton> (sorry ontology)
20:39:55 <kerry> while i am very fond of the idea -- i don't think we should burden the ontology with it
20:40:17 <kerry> zakim, unmute me
20:40:17 <Zakim> kerry should no longer be muted
20:40:36 <ocorcho> zakim, mute me
20:40:36 <Zakim> ocorcho was already muted, ocorcho
20:41:22 <rgarcia> Yes, that is a use case
20:42:14 <rgarcia> +q
20:42:36 <kerry> ack rgaricai
20:42:49 <kerry> ack rgarcia
20:43:29 <kerry> could you pls summarise on irc -- sound still not great?
20:43:40 <rgarcia> Do we have virtual sensors in the current us cases?
20:43:53 <rgarcia> Do we need them?
20:44:30 <rgarcia> +1
20:44:34 <kelsey> +1
20:44:39 <kerry> add them mike ( I would add them as separate to avoid confusion)
20:44:45 <krp> +1 yes, seems sensible
20:44:50 <kerry> +1
20:44:50 <victor> +1
20:45:28 <mcompton> ok, I'll update the page
20:45:47 <rgarcia> +q
20:47:03 <kerry> 3 kinds of use cases?
20:47:03 <krp> +q
20:47:46 <kerry> ack rgarcia
20:47:52 <kerry> ack krp
20:49:11 <kerry> is the voting adequate for this?
20:49:35 <krp> I think the voting is adequate, but the use cases are quite mixed
20:49:45 <kgann> yes
20:50:02 <krp> some are quite detailed, and map to a relatively small bit of sensor functionality
20:50:25 <krp> while other (the non-MMI ones?) are a bit higher level and, uh, motivational?
20:51:05 <kelsey> agree w/ Kevin, would be nice if 1. a single person would manage/vet the list (e.g. at the same level of fidelity); 2. we set a deadline for the voting to complete
20:51:39 <krp> the higher level ones won't be as useful for validation, because their scope goes beyond the device ontology
20:51:47 <kerry> i can hear you well!
20:51:55 <kgann> ditto
20:52:18 <kerry> +q
20:52:47 <kerry> suggest deadline in 2 wekks prior to meeting.
20:52:52 <kelsey> +1
20:53:15 <ocorcho> +1
20:53:21 <mcompton> +1
20:53:52 <kerry> volunteer to tidy list
20:54:03 <kerry> and accept sinput from other via the public email?
20:54:21 <kerry> action: vote before next meeting
20:54:44 <Zakim> -??P4
20:54:50 <kerry> no volunteer?
20:54:58 <Arthur> I can do it
20:55:29 <kerry> action: arthur to tidy list and ensure internal consistency
20:55:58 <kerry> others: send email to publis list for Artur to action
20:56:17 <krp> Hmmm, I think the issue is that the higher level use cases might need breaking down (if we want to achieve the same level of fidelity), and that's probably a bunch more work
20:56:30 <kelsey> should hold off voting until the list is "finished"?  ...perhaps that can be indicated either on the wiki (ref. http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Favorite_Use_Cases_List) or in the mailing list or both?
20:56:54 <krp> I'll try and pen something to the list.
20:57:27 <kerry> stop voting to complete ths list first?
20:57:37 <krp> We could always have a second round vote/re-vote once the list is complete?
20:57:43 <mcompton> votes might drive some of the discussion
20:57:49 <kgann> good idea!
20:57:56 <kerry> yes
20:58:15 <kerry> action: keep voting -- we'll do another vote after the list is final
20:58:40 <kerry> commnets on use cases?
20:58:41 <krp> Final list for next telecon then?
20:58:49 <krp> Then second round vote?
20:59:14 <kelsey> +1
21:00:14 <kerry> action: final use case list decision next meeting; then vote again
21:00:26 <kerry> any more comments?
21:00:57 <kerry> topic : aob
21:01:28 <kerry> topic : next week 
21:01:54 <kerry> no meeting next week -- back at this time foillowing week
21:02:11 <kerry> close the meeting
21:02:16 <victor> bye
21:02:17 <ocorcho> bye
21:02:21 <Zakim> -rgarcia
21:02:21 <Rodrigo> bye
21:02:22 <Zakim> - +1.301.497.aakk
21:02:23 <mcompton> bye
21:02:23 <Zakim> - +1.206.662.aaaa
21:02:24 <kgann> bye!
21:02:25 <Zakim> - +1.937.775.aaff
21:02:26 <rgarcia> bye
21:02:26 <Zakim> -Arthur
21:02:26 <Zakim> -victor
21:02:27 <ocorcho> ocorcho has left #ssn
21:02:32 <Zakim> -mcompton
21:02:32 <Arthur> Arthur has left #ssn
21:02:37 <Zakim> -krp
21:02:38 <Zakim> -Rodrigo
21:03:13 <Zakim> -kerry
21:03:32 <krzysztof_j> bye
21:03:32 <Zakim> -ocorcho
21:03:34 <Zakim> INC_SSN()4:00PM has ended
21:03:35 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.206.662.aaaa, +1.410.218.aabb, +1.410.218.aacc, +200000aadd, rgarcia, kerry, Arthur, +1.937.775.aaff, +1.410.218.aagg, victor, krp, mcompton, +1.410.218.aahh,
21:03:37 <Zakim> ... ocorcho, Rodrigo, +1.301.497.aakk
21:06:24 <kerry> zakim, bye
21:06:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ssn
21:06:52 <kerry> zakim,  bye
21:08:23 <kerry> rrsagent, make log public
21:11:35 <kelsey> kelsey has left #ssn
21:12:48 <kerry> rrsagent, dradt minutes
21:12:48 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'dradt minutes', kerry.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
21:13:05 <kerry> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:13:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-ssn-minutes.html kerry
21:13:36 <kerry> rrsagent, bye
21:13:36 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-ssn-actions.rdf :
21:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: vote before next meeting [1]
21:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-ssn-irc#T20-54-21
21:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: arthur to tidy list and ensure internal consistency [2]
21:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-ssn-irc#T20-55-29
21:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: keep voting -- we'll do another vote after the list is final [3]
21:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-ssn-irc#T20-58-15
21:13:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: final use case list decision next meeting; then vote again [4]
21:13:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-ssn-irc#T21-00-14