IRC log of CSS on 2009-09-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:30:10 [RRSAgent]
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15:30:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:30:21 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:30:21 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 30 minutes
15:38:21 [glazou]
bradk: np
15:44:10 [bradk_]
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15:48:37 [Lachy]
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15:50:25 [szilles]
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15:55:05 [sylvaing]
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15:55:06 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:13 [Zakim]
+ +95089aaaa
15:55:23 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:55:23 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:55:26 [Zakim]
15:55:36 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
15:55:36 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
15:59:45 [oyvinds]
oyvinds has joined #css
16:00:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.281.305.aabb
16:00:30 [TabAtkins]
Zakim, aabb is TabAtkins
16:00:30 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:01:37 [Zakim]
16:02:37 [glazou]
16:02:44 [glazou]
they were no fees last year
16:02:57 [glazou]
that's the 1st time
16:03:40 [sylvaing]
and it's per day, which is an interesting model
16:03:45 [sylvaing]
and probably a huge pain to track
16:03:48 [sylvaing]
if they can
16:04:24 [Zakim]
16:06:46 [glazou]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:06:46 [Zakim]
16:07:18 [glazou]
Zakim, mute Mozilla
16:07:18 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] should now be muted
16:07:26 [Zakim]
16:07:31 [dbaron]
16:07:36 [glazou]
np that happens
16:07:38 [dbaron]
I can't figure out why it wasn't muted
16:08:03 [Zakim]
+ +34.60.940.aacc
16:08:26 [Zakim]
16:08:37 [Zakim]
16:08:39 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #css
16:08:49 [CesarAcebal]
CesarAcebal has joined #css
16:08:50 [dbaron]
ok, I thought I found the mute but I clearly didn't
16:09:16 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: TPAC's early reg ends soon, fee raised from $50 to $75
16:09:29 [glazou]
16:09:40 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute [Mozilla]
16:09:40 [Zakim]
sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to [Mozilla]
16:09:41 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute [Mozilla]
16:09:42 [Zakim]
sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to [Mozilla]
16:09:42 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute [Mozilla]
16:09:42 [Zakim]
sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to [Mozilla]
16:09:44 [Zakim]
16:09:45 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute [Mozilla]
16:09:45 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] should now be muted
16:09:49 [Zakim]
16:10:01 [dbaron]
Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:10:01 [Zakim]
+David_Baron; got it
16:10:01 [Zakim]
16:10:11 [TabAtkins]
glazou: What to do with Beijing profile? Make note about it or drop it?
16:10:35 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Requests fantasai to write up minutes from last week.
16:10:35 [dbaron]
is fantasai aacc or P33?
16:10:53 [glazou]
16:11:14 [glazou]
aacc is Cesar
16:11:23 [TabAtkins]
Bert: wants to discuss exactly what the containing block is for a run-in.
16:11:47 [dbaron]
Zakim, P33 is fantasai
16:11:47 [Zakim]
sorry, dbaron, I do not recognize a party named 'P33'
16:11:52 [dbaron]
Zakim, ??P33 is fantasai
16:11:52 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:11:54 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Hakon wants to defer 2nd item (floats in multicol) until next week.
16:11:57 [dbaron]
Zakim, aacc is CesarAcebal
16:11:57 [Zakim]
+CesarAcebal; got it
16:12:01 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:12:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, [Microsoft], TabAtkins, Bert, Hakon_Lie, CesarAcebal, [Mozilla] (muted), fantasai, ChrisL
16:12:03 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:12:03 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:12:05 [fantasai] -- unformatted minutes from last week
16:12:09 [fantasai]
I'll send the minutes out soon
16:12:12 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Hyatt's not around, so defer first item (gradients) until later
16:12:35 [fantasai]
Beijing profile is waiting on Selectors
16:13:25 [dbaron]
I think we should continue planning to advance css-beijing on rec track
16:13:27 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: role of CSS Beijing is to describe the state of CSS at the time.
16:13:44 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: waiting on Selectors to enter CR before Beijing can enter CR.
16:14:16 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Any other opinions about what to do with it?
16:14:27 [dbaron]
myakura, I think MQ should be in the next one
16:14:42 [glazou]
16:14:54 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: it's useful to people who don't track us closely, and want to know what's useful/usable right now.
16:15:24 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Beijing says "these are the specs we consider to be stable and active, and should be considered "part of CSS" right now"
16:15:46 [sylvaing]
me again :)
16:16:06 [ChrisL]
Beijing CSS Technologies Development Co., a high-tech and leading company in the field of electronic article surveillance system
16:16:09 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: I've never seen anyone talking about Beijing outside of the WG.
16:16:18 [ChrisL]
16:16:20 [glazou]
16:16:32 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Who is using it? How do they find it?
16:16:45 [glazou]
16:16:48 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Validators are using it. The website can be confusing, but it's still useful.
16:17:47 [glazou]
lol sylvaing
16:18:04 [TabAtkins]
Fantasai: The current work website lists all sorts of things that may not be actually useful CSS right now for authors, Beijing provides a useful service to authors.
16:18:21 [sylvaing]
16:18:30 [dbaron]
We could also rename it to "CSS Snapshot 2010" or whatever once we determine what the correct year is :-)
16:18:32 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: As long as authors will find it useful, I'm okay with it.
16:18:48 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: What do we do with the current document?
16:18:56 [glazou]
16:18:59 [TabAtkins]
Bert: It's useful as a CR. I want to point people to it.
16:19:17 [TabAtkins]
Bert: At the moment it's just a Working Draft, and causing confusion with all the other WDs we ahve.
16:19:27 [sylvaing]
sylvaing: ...but if it is aimed at authors, the latter need to be able to get to it and find it easily
16:19:30 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I can't move it to CR until Selectors moves. I'd love to move it, but selectors is blocking.
16:19:42 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Let's deal with Selectors LC so we can move it.
16:20:05 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I need a full week to address all LC comments and get them formatted/published
16:20:35 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Defer that, waiting on fantasai to address Selectors comments
16:21:15 [dbaron]
direction of what?
16:21:16 [TabAtkins]
glazou: next item from Bert! (containing block for run-ins) Suggest send an email to www-style
16:21:32 [TabAtkins]
Bert: Sure. I can point out options, but am not sure which direction to go in.
16:21:49 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Give people a week or so to think about it on the list.
16:22:16 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Any further CSS 2.1 issues to discuss. don't think we had anything left from last week?
16:22:45 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Don't believe anything off to pthe top of my head is ready for discussion.
16:22:55 [TabAtkins]
glazou: TPAC - we shoudl start collecting agenda items
16:23:14 [ChrisL]
I will attend TPAC
16:23:20 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I'd like to know how many people are coming. Send attendance/regrets asap, don't forgot to book flights and hotels.
16:24:11 [anne]
FWIW, moving the snapshot to CR is possible even if Selectors is LC
16:24:17 [TabAtkins]
glazou: CSS Variables - we need Hyatt, so let's not discuss, but at least get it minuted.
16:24:31 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Proposal from Hyatt and me in Webkit, another proposal from fantasai
16:24:38 [anne]
The normative reference problem arises at PR, not CR, and even there you could in theory ignore it if you have good reasons.
16:24:48 [TabAtkins]
glazou: It's a top question from designers. I want a decision to either move forward or just drop it.
16:24:57 [TabAtkins]
glazou: it seems like we just stopped
16:25:11 [TabAtkins]
Bert: I want it dropped; haven't changed my opinion
16:26:00 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I'll drop Hyatt an email to get him in next week.
16:27:21 [Zakim]
16:27:22 [TabAtkins]
glazou: That's it. Short call. See you next week.
16:27:24 [Zakim]
16:27:27 [Zakim]
16:27:28 [Zakim]
16:27:29 [Zakim]
16:27:31 [Zakim]
16:27:32 [Zakim]
16:27:38 [dbaron]
Zakim, disconnect [Mozilla]
16:27:38 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] is being disconnected
16:27:40 [Zakim]
16:27:53 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: it's okay, it takes awhile to recognize voices over the phone
16:27:56 [glazou]
TabAtkins: np, that happens everytime a new WG member is taking minutes for the 1st time
16:28:25 [TabAtkins]
I'll have to be careful when writing up the minutes to pay attention to the corrections.
16:28:40 [glazou]
but you said you were having problems with norwegian accents and in fact it's french accents ;-)
16:28:42 [glazou]
or both :-D
16:28:54 [TabAtkins]
Nah, I was previously having trouble telling Bert apart from some others.
16:28:55 [ChrisL]
tab, do you know how to get html minutes made?
16:29:11 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL nope, linky?
16:29:17 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
16:29:17 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +95089aaaa, glazou, sylvaing, +1.281.305.aabb, TabAtkins, Bert, Hakon_Lie, +34.60.940.aacc, ChrisL, David_Baron, fantasai, CesarAcebal
16:29:26 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:29:32 [dbaron]
fantasai, your response to the background-clip thread saying "please shift this discussion to www-style" is the only message in the thread not on www-style
16:29:34 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
16:29:43 [fantasai]
16:29:44 [fantasai]
16:29:47 [ChrisL]
now wait a minute or two before clicking!
16:29:54 [TabAtkins]
Woo, thanks ChrisL
16:29:59 [ChrisL]
16:30:07 [fantasai]
dbaron: thanks for pointing that out
16:31:10 [ChrisL]
yes, putting a summary of actions, resolutions and so on at the start is very useful
16:33:08 [TabAtkins]
k, will do.
16:33:21 [TabAtkins]
That's what I read to figure out what part of the minutes I need to read.
16:34:51 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I usually grab the IRC logs, regex them to strip out the dates and the minute-taker's name, cut irrelevant lines like Zakim's, and then format them while checking them for errors
16:35:13 [TabAtkins]
16:35:27 [TabAtkins]
You write good minutes, so I'm just gonna emulate you.
16:35:50 [fantasai]
hehe, thanks ^_^
16:38:31 [TabAtkins]
Also: Chris, I'm pretty sure I skipped a line from you. If you remember saying anything important, let me know where I should insert it.
16:38:36 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL, rather.
16:38:38 [sylvaing]
yes, it's hard to beat fantasai at the minute game. my goal is still to last a whole telcon without her asking me if I need her to take over :)
16:40:05 [TabAtkins]
I just need to get better at telling you and glazou apart.
16:43:07 [sylvaing]
i like doing it; just not familiar enough with certain aspects of CSS to keep up sometimes. knowledge does help
16:45:52 [sylvaing]
well, daniel chairs so he speaks a lot more than me. and he'll say things that only the meeting chair would like....'Hakon, shut up, I'm the chair' :)
16:52:46 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Hahaha. Yeah, I mostly went with the assumption that if the person was speaking authoritatively it was glazou
16:53:36 [TabAtkins]
And I do make it my mission to understand absolutely as much about CSS as possible. My one big failure so far is the inline formatting model.
16:55:46 [sylvaing]
I hear you. our tester here has a version of the spec annotated with references to the relevant testcase. going through that one bit every day helps. but i think i really need to build real pages. I didn't really start to get floats until I actually used them.
16:56:25 [TabAtkins]
Floats are mystical entities who only show their true from in front of a virgin under a full moon.
16:56:53 [TabAtkins]
It does help that I actually *use* this stuff every day, rather than code the backend for it. ^_^
16:57:21 [sylvaing]
dude, I don't even code the backend. that's the painful part sometimes
16:58:39 [TabAtkins]
What *do* you do then, sylvaing? Hang out in the lunchroom drinking b&j&liquor floats?
16:58:46 [sylvaing]
but coming to it from the pov of an implementer or a tester definitely helps
16:59:55 [sylvaing]
msft has a separate role for design/specifications/project management work.
17:00:05 [sylvaing]
used to be coder until i came here 3 years ago
17:00:46 [sylvaing]
i think it was their way to tell me I was too nice and social to be a developer around here, but way too nerdy for marketing
17:01:16 [TabAtkins]
So they dropped you somewhere where you could be social and nerdy at the same time?
17:01:26 [sylvaing]
that's the gig
17:01:37 [Zakim]
17:01:38 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:39 [Zakim]
Attendees were +95089aaaa, glazou, sylvaing, +1.281.305.aabb, TabAtkins, Bert, Hakon_Lie, +34.60.940.aacc, ChrisL, David_Baron, fantasai, CesarAcebal
17:02:21 [sylvaing]
you get to do technical stuff. you can look at the code and hunt bugs all you want. you just don't write or check-in new features, typically.
17:02:58 [sylvaing]
speaking of which, i owe anne a list of our supported HTML encoding labels and all synonyms
17:03:02 [sylvaing]
17:03:03 [TabAtkins]
Cool but disappointing. Coding is awesome.
17:03:05 [TabAtkins]
17:03:52 [sylvaing]
yeah yeah, i know i'm not one of the cool kids. no need to rub it in....
17:04:17 [TabAtkins]
17:05:53 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I have a friend who's been trying to get a PM job for awhile, and can't. So whether you're one of the cool kids depends on your perspective. :)
17:06:29 [anne]
sylvaing, making that list qualifies for being cool :)
17:07:51 [sylvaing]
anne, lol. the most exciting part of that was writing a perl script to flatten the IANA list. got my heartbeat to 67.
17:08:28 [sylvaing]
fantasai, you'll have to tell me more about how/why they can't...
17:08:40 [anne]
sylvaing, try Python:
17:10:09 [sylvaing]
yay python
17:10:31 [sylvaing]
ok. now i'm really off to work on that list. later all.
17:12:09 [dbaron]
I was; I got to the point of preferring python to perl pretty quickly, even though I still probably know more perl.
17:12:35 [TabAtkins]
I've never used it, but it looks fine. The lack of a proper lambda turns me off.
17:12:53 [fantasai]
The lack of *static typing* drives me crazy.
17:13:20 [fantasai]
It makes it ridiculously hard to figure out what datatype any variable represents
17:13:30 [fantasai]
Have to read the function's implementation
17:13:31 [TabAtkins]
Static typing is the devil. >_<
17:13:34 [fantasai]
dig seven layers deep
17:13:48 [fantasai]
to try to figure out what the stupid function is supposed to return
17:13:50 [fantasai]
17:13:58 [fantasai]
<-- was reading the mercurial codebase
17:14:02 [TabAtkins]
That's what comments are for.
17:14:10 [fantasai]
<-- would have rather been reading karnaze's border-collapse code
17:16:00 [fantasai]
Comments would help, but since they aren't required... they don't get added
17:16:35 [bradk]
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18:34:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #CSS
19:59:07 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: btw, if you're not sure who a speaker is, just write it in as ?: and someone will fill that in on IRC
19:59:21 [TabAtkins]
Ah, thanks.
19:59:23 [fantasai]
David's good at filling in gaps like that :)
20:25:53 [annevk]
test suite deadline?
20:26:28 [annevk]
to be honest i've been awaiting answers to my review of the Microsoft test suite before looking into CSS 2.1 tests again
20:27:00 [Curt`]
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20:59:59 [fantasai]
annevk: btw, I just got a request for the text-overflow behavior you wanted
21:00:23 [fantasai]
annevk: if MSFT is willing to rehaul their implementation, I think we can get what Opera wants
21:00:31 [fantasai]
annevk: because hyatt also doesn't like the current definition
21:23:27 [sylvaing]
text-overflow ?
21:26:15 [annevk]
fantasai, we're currently implementing some proprietary thingy
21:26:32 [fantasai]
sylvaing: yeah
21:26:38 [annevk]
our text-overflow:ellipsis should match Firefox/MSIE
21:27:03 [fantasai]
annevk: I don't think Mozilla implements it
21:27:09 [fantasai]
annevk: WebKit?
21:27:22 [annevk]
prolly WebKit then, yes
21:27:29 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Hyatt's pointed out a number of silly design decisions and shortcomings in the impl
21:27:54 [fantasai]
sylvaing: he seems to be willing to rework the property, if you guys are okay with that
21:27:56 [annevk]
I think we did make a change to make the ellipsis disappear on scrolling
21:28:08 [fantasai]
sylvaing: then we can come up with some more reasonable multiline behavior
21:28:10 [annevk]
forgot the exact details
21:28:20 [fantasai]
sylvaing: and not require as many properties to trigger the behavior
21:28:29 [annevk]
and no longer really care since whatever I had to deal with went away :)
21:28:42 [fantasai]
Mozilla cares
21:28:55 [fantasai]
since we want to implement it
21:29:10 [fantasai]
and it's currently .. mostly undefined
21:29:52 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I think we're always ok to chat about it. is there a link to a post that i missed ?
21:30:51 [annevk]
fantasai, email Řyvind Stenhaug <>
21:30:56 [annevk]
fantasai, he should have all the details
21:33:58 [sylvaing]
annevk: is the encoding data what you wanted ?
21:34:10 [fantasai]
21:35:06 [sylvaing]
fantasai: oh yes, remember that one. thanks !
21:38:13 [annevk]
sylvaing, yeah, although I don't quite get how IE does not treat ISO-8859-1 and Windows-1252 as the same encoding for decoding purposes unlike all other browsers
21:38:22 [annevk]
sylvaing, but I guess the details are in the code pages
21:43:02 [sylvaing]
21:45:10 [sylvaing]
although they don't coincide across their entire range
21:45:43 [sylvaing]
i.e. windows-1252 is a superset
21:46:14 [annevk]
not in other browsers
21:46:25 [annevk]
well, not for decoding anyway
21:47:22 [annevk]
but this will certainly help
21:50:16 [sylvaing]
well, strictly speaking that's not correct
21:51:19 [annevk]
what bit?
21:51:26 [sylvaing]
but given that windows-1252 was never formally standardized and no one probably wants to build support for it on mac, linux etc, it made sense to map it. things will and do get weird if you decode characters in the non-overlapping range
21:51:43 [sylvaing]
decoding windows-1252 as ISO-8859-1 will fail for some codepoints
21:51:58 [sylvaing]
range 0x80-0x9F
21:51:59 [annevk]
browsers do it the other way around ;)
21:52:36 [sylvaing]
21:52:40 [annevk]
when a page says iso-8859-1 browsers decode it using windows-1252
21:52:56 [annevk]
they also need to encode as windows-1252 for form submission etc.
21:53:17 [annevk]
i'm not sure where this requirement has come from, but all non-IE browsers do it this way
21:54:40 [sylvaing]
then i'm confused; i was under the impression that, say, Firefox on the Mac only knew ISO-8859-1 and that this could result in that dreaded question-mark-in-diamond character when loading a page built for Windows
21:56:12 [annevk]
maybe when it was still called Firebird :)
21:56:29 [sylvaing]
21:57:38 [sylvaing]
i'll double-check on this one; just respond with any issues you notice and i'll investigate further. what you see is a careful extraction from the IE/windows code base. there may be other semantics and special-case mappings that i missed
21:59:33 [annevk]
aah, maybe then you've done duplicate work, though it's better than what I had before
21:59:51 [annevk]
especially IE-only encoding code would be interesting
22:11:46 [sylvaing]
duplicate ? you have access to our source ? :)
22:13:27 [annevk]
I got your Windows encoding to share some secrets already:
22:13:39 [annevk]
Windows encodings guy* duh
22:17:30 [sylvaing]
yeah, the lists pretty much align
22:17:41 [sylvaing]
module a few .net-only things
22:18:04 [sylvaing]
because both they and us take a dependency on the same system service
22:18:39 [sylvaing]
so the question is, does IE add its own special-cases because that is what it is supposed to be for browsers
22:18:41 [sylvaing]
i'll check
23:07:13 [sylvaing]
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