IRC log of sparql on 2009-09-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:52:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:52:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:52:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:52:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #sparql
13:52:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
13:52:10 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
13:52:11 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:52:11 [trackbot]
Date: 08 September 2009
13:52:12 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:52:12 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
13:52:30 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
13:52:41 [LeeF]
13:52:48 [LeeF]
LeeF has changed the topic to: Agenda:
13:52:57 [LeeF]
Regrets: AlexP, Orri
13:53:39 [LeeF]
Possible regrets from Kjetil
13:55:02 [swh_]
swh_ has joined #sparql
13:57:35 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:57:42 [Zakim]
13:57:51 [LeeF]
zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
13:57:51 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
13:57:59 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.276.aaaa
13:58:09 [kasei]
Zakim, aaaa is me
13:58:10 [Zakim]
+kasei; got it
13:58:23 [Zakim]
13:58:28 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P3 is me
13:58:28 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
13:59:07 [Zakim]
13:59:10 [swh]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
13:59:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.312.863.aabb
13:59:13 [Zakim]
+swh; got it
13:59:40 [pgearon]
Zakim, aabb is me
13:59:43 [Zakim]
+pgearon; got it
13:59:47 [bglimm]
bglimm has joined #SPARQL
14:00:53 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:00:53 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:00:59 [Zakim]
14:01:31 [bglimm]
Zakim, +??P11 is Bijan
14:01:31 [Zakim]
sorry, bglimm, I do not recognize a party named '+??P11'
14:01:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.919.663.aacc
14:01:43 [SimonKJ]
SimonKJ has joined #sparql
14:01:43 [LeeF]
zakim, ??P11 is Bijan, bglimm
14:01:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P11 is Bijan, bglimm', LeeF
14:01:48 [LeeF]
zakim, ??P11 has Bijan, bglimm
14:01:48 [Zakim]
+Bijan, bglimm; got it
14:01:53 [bijan]
bijan has joined #sparql
14:02:05 [bijan]
Zakim, mute me
14:02:05 [Zakim]
sorry, bijan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:02:12 [bijan]
zakim, who is here?
14:02:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeeF, kasei (muted), AndyS, swh, pgearon, ??P11, +1.919.663.aacc
14:02:18 [Zakim]
??P11 has Bijan, bglimm
14:02:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bijan, SimonKJ, bglimm, swh, Zakim, RRSAgent, iv_an_ru, pgearon, AndyS, ivan, LeeF, karl, kasei, trackbot, ericP
14:02:30 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:02:42 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:02:43 [Zakim]
sorry, bijan, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:02:47 [SimonKJ]
zakim, +1.919.663.aacc is SimonKJ
14:02:47 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #sparql
14:02:53 [Zakim]
sorry, bglimm, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:02:55 [swh]
Zakim, ??P11 has bijan, bglimm
14:02:57 [Zakim]
+SimonKJ; got it
14:02:57 [chimezie]
Zakim, what is the passcode?
14:03:07 [Zakim]
Bijan was already listed in ??P11, swh
14:03:11 [Zakim]
bglimm was already listed in ??P11, swh
14:03:14 [Zakim]
the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie
14:03:38 [bijan]
zakim, ??p11 is me
14:03:38 [swh]
hm, semi-case insensitive :)
14:03:43 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:03:48 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
14:03:49 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute ??P11
14:03:52 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:04:02 [Zakim]
sorry, bglimm, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P11
14:04:17 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeeF, kasei (muted), AndyS, swh, pgearon, bijan (muted), SimonKJ
14:04:38 [Zakim]
bijan has Bijan, bglimm
14:04:44 [Zakim]
14:04:44 [SimonS_]
SimonS_ has joined #sparql
14:04:45 [chimezie]
zakim, mute me
14:04:49 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:04:50 [Zakim]
Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
14:04:52 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:04:54 [Zakim]
14:06:06 [LeeF]
Scribe: SimonKJ
14:06:19 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
14:06:23 [Zakim]
14:06:32 [Zakim]
+ +49.261.287.aadd
14:06:36 [ericP]
Zakim, Steve is really ericP
14:06:36 [Zakim]
+ericP; got it
14:06:48 [AndyS]
I was there - not regrets
14:06:54 [LeeF]
zakim, aadd is SimonS_
14:06:54 [Zakim]
+SimonS_; got it
14:06:54 [SimonS_]
Zakim, aadd is me
14:06:55 [Zakim]
sorry, SimonS_, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
14:07:48 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at, noting that AndyS was present
14:08:04 [LeeF]
Next meeting: 2009-09-15 @ 15:00 BST / 10:00 EDT, Alex Passant to scribe (Scribe List)
14:08:25 [LeeF]
14:09:04 [bijan]
I might call in if reasonable.
14:09:13 [SteveH]
I'm at risk
14:09:46 [SimonKJ]
SimonKJ still fighting the approval process
14:10:08 [pgearon]
The approval has to come from my manager, who has been conferencing and traveling a lot lately, so I've yet to hear
14:10:14 [chimezie]
I might be able to call in for portions of the agenda
14:11:02 [SimonKJ]
if I cannot make it in person I have scheduled the time so will definitely call in
14:12:00 [SteveH]
14:12:48 [kasei]
hearing the echo here
14:13:47 [SimonKJ]
direct all efforts to getting out the first public working draft; shooting for end of Sep but will likely slip into October
14:13:48 [ericP]
Zakim, please mute ivan
14:13:48 [Zakim]
Ivan should now be muted
14:14:32 [chimezie]
Im not certain i can state the additional 30 mins
14:14:39 [SteveH]
I can't do 90 today
14:14:44 [chimezie]
i.e., some days I'll be able to stay over - others not so much
14:14:44 [kasei]
I may have trouble with the last few minutes (have to dash across campus to another meeting), but most of the extra 30 min should be OK.
14:14:45 [SimonKJ]
to that end will schedule the next few teleconferences for 90mins rather than 60; who cannot make 90
14:15:14 [SimonKJ]
will at least try to do a few in a row starting next week
14:15:39 [ericP]
i will likely have conflicts from a couple weeks onwards
14:15:53 [bijan]
OWL is finished CR and heading toward PR.
14:16:02 [bijan]
XMLLiteral is no longer at risk, but accepted.
14:16:45 [ivan]
RDB2RDF should start any day (only admin left)
14:16:54 [LeeF]
topic: FPWD Status Check
14:17:25 [LeeF]
14:17:41 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ACTION-16
14:17:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-16 Send fleshed out example of Andy's subquery to the list { {?x :p ?v } { SELECT * { ?x :q ?w FILTER (?v>3) } } } closed
14:17:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.937.775.aaee
14:17:52 [AndyS]
Eric helped with CVS - actions 87 and 88 are done.
14:19:14 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ACTION-87
14:19:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-87 Find the editor's draft of features and rats closed
14:19:18 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ACTION-88
14:19:18 [trackbot]
ACTION-88 Figure out where to find SPARQL2 CVS edit space closed
14:19:42 [AndyS]
Query doc is:
14:20:09 [SteveH]
I think we both answered, go andy
14:20:09 [Prateek]
Prateek has joined #sparql
14:21:33 [AndyS]
trackbot, close ACTION-84
14:21:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-84 And SteveH to decide whether FPWD should be inegrated or only new features closed
14:23:22 [LeeF]
ISSUE: Can variable used as aliases for expressions be themselves used in other expressions?
14:23:22 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-39 - Can variable used as aliases for expressions be themselves used in other expressions? ; please complete additional details at .
14:23:24 [AndyS]
Example: SELECT (?x+?y) AS ?z (?z+1) AS ?w
14:24:33 [chimezie]
why not make it an issue then, since all we have is an 'issue' tracker
14:24:38 [chimezie]
and note that we know a workaround
14:26:49 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to go through issues list, figure out status, which need to be discussed in TCs, which have pending actions, which can be resolved
14:26:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-89 - Go through issues list, figure out status, which need to be discussed in TCs, which have pending actions, which can be resolved [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-09-15].
14:28:40 [ericP]
q+ to ask if xmlspec variants are acceptable
14:28:45 [SimonKJ]
we have editors for the SPARQL 11 update document and update language.
14:29:12 [ericP]
14:29:29 [SimonKJ]
where does the work on RESTful operations, and correspondence to update protocol go?
14:29:59 [chimezie]
how much administrative overhead do we introduce with separate docs/editors
14:30:02 [chimezie]
14:30:03 [SimonKJ]
should RESTful operations go into the update language or in the protocol (reduce number of docs from 3 to 2)
14:30:13 [chimezie]
if not much, seems putting them in one document makes sense to me
14:30:19 [chimezie]
zakim, unmute me
14:30:19 [Zakim]
Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
14:30:26 [SimonKJ]
ericP in favor of separate documents as they seem orthogonal
14:30:48 [SimonS_]
+1 to having separate documents
14:31:21 [bijan]
Overhead: Maintaining links between, multiple documents for people to sort through, multiple documents to be reviewed and to engage with
14:31:26 [chimezie]
s/putting them in one document/separating them
14:31:36 [bijan]
Advantages: modular, can advance at different rates, etc.
14:31:51 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:31:51 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:33:03 [AndyS]
Suggest separate docs at the moment, esp as content accumulated - can later merge in. Reverse is harder if has been published.
14:33:44 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:33:44 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:33:54 [ivan]
return format?
14:34:04 [chimezie]
+1 on AndyS's argument for having the second option open at a later point
14:34:18 [ivan]
so the number is 6 or 7...
14:34:35 [ivan]
14:34:41 [bijan]
But it's still "in our space"
14:35:00 [ivan]
json format?
14:35:30 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:35:30 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:35:54 [SimonKJ]
if the JSON format is just a note, we still have it in our space and its still active (URL?)
14:36:26 [AndyS]
14:37:15 [ericP]
14:37:16 [ivan]
-> OWL Overivew document
14:37:29 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:37:29 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:37:41 [bijan]
A good home page would be fine
14:37:44 [ericP]
q+ to talk about XQuery/XSLT/F&O
14:37:55 [LeeF]
ack ericP
14:37:55 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to ask if xmlspec variants are acceptable and to talk about XQuery/XSLT/F&O
14:38:01 [bijan]
This image would be useful:
14:38:35 [chimezie]
zakim, mute me
14:38:35 [Zakim]
Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
14:38:53 [bijan]
In OWL, the Wiki maintained cross links pretty well. but it's not just technical, it's editing, e.g., "see results format"
14:39:13 [ivan]
14:39:16 [AndyS]
Info: The Q doc has a results example + link.
14:39:37 [LeeF]
ack ivan
14:39:37 [ivan]
zakim, unmute me
14:39:39 [Zakim]
Ivan was not muted, ivan
14:40:55 [ivan]
zakim, mute me
14:40:55 [Zakim]
Ivan should now be muted
14:40:55 [bijan]
Really!??!?! Won't they wave it for content that's been IPR reviewed!??!
14:42:29 [bijan]
I'll note the HTML5 spec management tool:
14:43:21 [LeeF]
(1) SPARQL/Query 1.1 (2) SPARQL/Update 1.0 (3) SPARQL/Protocol 1.1 (4) Service Description (5) RESTful Update operations (6) SPARQL + entailment
14:44:02 [AndyS]
q+ to ask about 3
14:44:15 [AndyS]
(as convenient)
14:44:24 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
14:44:24 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask about 3
14:44:36 [SimonKJ]
proposing 6 documents to get us to FPWD, can argue in the future around the RESTful operations
14:45:59 [SimonKJ]
updates to (3) raise the WSDL issue (AndyS?)
14:46:16 [AndyS]
+1 to protocol 1.1
14:46:37 [SimonKJ]
proposal to version (3) as 1.1 in keeping with the agreement for (1)
14:46:57 [SimonKJ]
AndyS - want to expand on the issue?
14:47:15 [AndyS]
After call?
14:47:16 [bijan]
14:47:24 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:47:24 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
14:48:04 [chimezie]
zakim, unmute me
14:48:04 [Zakim]
Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
14:48:51 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:48:51 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
14:49:23 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to work with Axel to find editors for protocol, service description, and RESTful Update operations this week
14:49:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-90 - Work with Axel to find editors for protocol, service description, and RESTful Update operations this week [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-09-15].
14:51:08 [LeeF]
topic: Custom aggregates
14:51:09 [LeeF]
14:51:59 [SteveH]
+1 to custom aggregates
14:52:37 [pgearon]
I actually liked Andy's suggestion of marking functions that are aggregate functions
14:52:48 [pgearon]
(even though other's didn't seem to enjoy the syntax)
14:53:06 [SteveH]
Can't you always tell from the syntactic position?
14:53:12 [SteveH]
14:53:27 [pgearon]
I'm just commenting on custom aggregate extensions here, not the standard ones
14:54:11 [SteveH]
14:54:14 [chimezie]
we may need some syntactic sugar
14:54:17 [pgearon]
no, because standard functions could appear in HAVING (though not vice-versa)
14:54:20 [LeeF]
ack SteveH
14:54:59 [pgearon]
14:55:05 [LeeF]
ack pgearon
14:55:48 [chimezie]
+1 readability
14:56:03 [SimonKJ]
pgearon - issue is not about processing the HAVING clause, but readability
14:56:24 [AndyS]
HAVING (fn:myFunction(agg:mycount(?x))) has an aggrgeate and a regular function
14:56:35 [SimonKJ]
issue is that extension functions in a WHERE clause are relatively easy to understand, but in a HAVING clause may be harder to understand
14:59:05 [SteveH]
I'm a 0 FWIW
14:59:28 [SteveH]
if someone has a syntax that's not horrible I'd be more in favour
14:59:41 [SteveH]
CUSTOM(uri, ...) would be less horrible
15:01:41 [SimonKJ]
AndyS - where is the update spec? LeeF, an update of the doc is due a week from today
15:01:52 [ivan]
bye everybody
15:01:53 [SteveH]
bye all
15:01:56 [SimonKJ]
15:01:56 [Zakim]
15:01:57 [Zakim]
15:01:57 [bglimm]
15:02:00 [Zakim]
15:02:00 [Zakim]
15:02:02 [Zakim]
- +1.937.775.aaee
15:02:02 [Zakim]
15:03:36 [LeeF]
SimonKJ, here's the link with how to do the minutes:
15:03:43 [LeeF]
Please let me know if you have any trouble
15:03:50 [LeeF]
& thanks again for scribing
15:04:18 [SimonKJ]
thanks, a pleasure to help, though I probably missed a bit
15:04:39 [bijan]
Pointer to xml spec langauge?
15:05:08 [bijan]
Anolis, I beleive, just uses IDs on elements.
15:05:40 [Zakim]
15:07:14 [AndyS]
SimonKJ - WSDL?
15:08:05 [SimonKJ]
AndyS - I assume this is a previous topic rearing up again, is there a link to the conversation?
15:08:38 [Zakim]
15:09:03 [AndyS]
Not a specifc thread - was recurring issue for protocol because we seemed to be first to use WSDL for HTTP for a spec.
15:09:39 [AndyS]
And to impl we less than many SOAP impls - it was (and is?) not popular for SPARQL.
15:11:52 [pgearon]
15:12:19 [Zakim]
15:13:16 [AndyS]
15:13:56 [AndyS]
15:14:48 [Zakim]
15:14:50 [Zakim]
15:14:56 [Zakim]
15:14:58 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:14:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were LeeF, +1.518.276.aaaa, kasei, AndyS, +1.312.863.aabb, swh, pgearon, Bijan, bglimm, SimonKJ, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Ivan, +49.261.287.aadd, ericP, SimonS_, +1.937.775.aaee
15:26:18 [SimonS]
SimonS has left #sparql
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AndyS has joined #sparql
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AndyS has joined #sparql
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AndyS has joined #sparql
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