IRC log of swxg on 2009-09-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:13:54 [RRSAgent]
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12:13:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc
12:44:40 [AndreaP]
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12:44:49 [AndreaP]
zakim, code
12:44:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', AndreaP
12:44:52 [AndreaP]
zakim, code?
12:44:52 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AndreaP
12:49:14 [danbri]
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12:50:31 [danbri]
hi folks
12:50:32 [DKA]
DKA has joined #swxg
12:50:40 [rreck]
rreck has joined #SWXG
12:50:43 [danbri]
i might be irc only today i'm afraid (drupalcon multitasking)
12:52:15 [rreck]
hhalpin did you send out minutes to approve?
12:56:02 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()9:00AM has now started
12:56:08 [Zakim]
+ +95177aaaa
12:57:06 [bblfish]
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12:57:11 [Zakim]
+??P17
12:57:22 [rreck]
zakim, ??P17 is me
12:57:22 [Zakim]
+rreck; got it
12:57:55 [rreck]
low voter turnout
12:58:07 [pchampin]
pchampin has joined #swxg
12:58:17 [tinkster]
tinkster has joined #swxg
12:58:22 [Zakim]
+??P18
12:58:44 [melvster]
zakim, ??P18 is me
12:58:44 [Zakim]
+melvster; got it
12:58:47 [tinkster]
zakim, who's here?
12:58:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +95177aaaa, rreck, melvster
12:58:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tinkster, pchampin, bblfish, rreck, DKA, danbri, AndreaP, RRSAgent, melvster, hhalpin, FabGandon, caribou, karl, Zakim, trackbot
12:59:07 [Zakim]
+tinkster
12:59:29 [Yuk]
Yuk has joined #swxg
13:00:02 [rreck]
looks like the past minutes are not posted yet?
13:00:45 [pchampin]
it is :)
13:01:15 [DKA]
zakim, what is the code?
13:01:15 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DKA
13:01:24 [Zakim]
+adam
13:01:38 [DKA]
zakim, who is adam
13:01:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is adam', DKA
13:01:52 [rreck]
looks like the webpage links to minutes are wrong, many link to jul 22
13:01:53 [DKA]
zakim, adam is DKA
13:01:53 [Zakim]
+DKA; got it
13:02:20 [pchampin]
the last minutes I recieved are http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-swxg-minutes.html
13:02:27 [pchampin]
and the link works
13:02:38 [AlexPassant]
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13:02:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.314.683.aabb
13:03:04 [oshani]
oshani has joined #swxg
13:03:06 [Zakim]
+??P31
13:03:08 [DKA]
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html
13:03:12 [Zakim]
+bblfish
13:03:13 [Adam]
Adam has joined #swxg
13:03:16 [Zakim]
+??P32
13:03:20 [Zakim]
+caribou
13:03:22 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P32 is me
13:03:26 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
13:03:29 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
13:03:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pchampin, rreck, melvster, tinkster, DKA, +1.314.683.aabb, ??P31, bblfish, AlexPassant, caribou
13:03:38 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ??P31 is hhalpin
13:03:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Adam, AlexPassant, Yuk, tinkster, pchampin, bblfish, rreck, DKA, danbri, AndreaP, RRSAgent, melvster, hhalpin, FabGandon, caribou, karl, Zakim, trackbot
13:03:45 [tinkster]
links to agenda, etc should be OK here - http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Telecons
13:03:46 [Zakim]
+hhalpin; got it
13:03:50 [hhalpin]
Last meeting minutes are linked from agenda
13:04:08 [Adam]
zakim, aabb is me
13:04:08 [Zakim]
+Adam; got it
13:04:10 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html
13:04:31 [rreck]
you mean victim
13:04:51 [oshani]
oshani has joined #swxg
13:04:52 [tinkster]
I don't mind if nobody else wants to.
13:04:56 [Zakim]
+??P2
13:05:02 [AndreaP]
zakim, ??p2 is me
13:05:02 [Zakim]
+AndreaP; got it
13:05:06 [rreck]
+1 tinkster
13:05:07 [DKA]
ScribeNick: tinkster
13:05:15 [DKA]
Scribe: Toby
13:05:36 [Zakim]
-bblfish
13:05:40 [rreck]
i saw dan perform some incantation
13:05:40 [DKA]
zakim, what meeting is this?
13:05:40 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, DKA.
13:05:44 [jsalvachua]
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13:05:49 [caribou]
zakim, this is SWXG
13:05:49 [Zakim]
caribou, this was already INC_SWXG()9:00AM
13:05:50 [Zakim]
ok, caribou; that matches INC_SWXG()9:00AM
13:06:29 [DKA]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html
13:06:35 [Zakim]
+bblfish
13:06:42 [tinkster]
DKA: Let's kick off. First item on our agenda is (as usual) to review last week's minutes.
13:06:42 [bblfish]
hi
13:06:43 [hhalpin]
Zakim, agenda+ Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-09-02T13:00-15:00Z
13:06:43 [Zakim]
agendum 5 added
13:06:53 [Zakim]
+ +34.91.549.aacc
13:07:03 [jsalvachua]
zakim, aacc is me
13:07:03 [Zakim]
+jsalvachua; got it
13:07:13 [tinkster]
http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html
13:07:31 [hhalpin]
Zakim, what's the agenda?
13:07:31 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
13:07:32 [Zakim]
4. DanBri on WebFinger [from hhalpin]
13:07:34 [Zakim]
5. Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-09-02T13:00-15:00Z [from hhalpin]
13:07:39 [oshani]
oshani has joined #swxg
13:07:47 [danbri]
didn't we do webfinger last week?
13:07:56 [rreck]
+1 approve minutes
13:08:04 [hhalpin]
Zakim, agenda- 4
13:08:04 [Zakim]
agendum 4, DanBri on WebFinger, dropped
13:08:04 [danbri]
ie. http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#item05
13:08:18 [bblfish]
yes, I understood sparql webfinger right after the end of the conf
13:08:27 [tinkster]
... Any objections to approving last week's minutes?
13:08:51 [rreck]
+1 meet again
13:09:10 [hhalpin]
Zakim, agenda+ General Organization and Task Forces
13:09:10 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
13:09:18 [hhalpin]
Zakim, next agendum
13:09:18 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-09-02T13:00-15:00Z" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:09:20 [tinkster]
... Moving swiftly on: general organisations. Still not completed my action on OSLO/geolocation
13:09:38 [DKA]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results
13:09:42 [tinkster]
... Focus today on discussing use cases and results of poll. Move onto that?
13:09:46 [hhalpin]
Zakim, agenda+ User stories
13:09:46 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
13:09:56 [hhalpin]
Zakim, next agendum
13:09:56 [Zakim]
agendum 5 was just opened, hhalpin
13:09:58 [Zakim]
+MIT-G631
13:10:01 [tinkster]
Harry: that sounds fine.
13:10:13 [melvster]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results
13:10:21 [hhalpin]
Zakim, open agendum 6
13:10:21 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "General Organization and Task Forces" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:10:31 [hhalpin]
Zakim, close this agendum
13:10:31 [Zakim]
agendum 6 closed
13:10:32 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:10:33 [Zakim]
5. Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-09-02T13:00-15:00Z [from hhalpin]
13:10:38 [hhalpin]
Zakim, open agendum 7
13:10:38 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "User stories" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:10:58 [tinkster]
zakim, who's making noise?
13:11:09 [Zakim]
tinkster, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 13 (36%)
13:11:15 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results
13:11:48 [tinkster]
Harry: Most productive to continue from last meeting, walking through use cases.
13:12:00 [Adam]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results?view=compact
13:12:58 [tinkster]
... Most use cases have a champion. Some can clearly be dropped - bidirectional; drag and drop; etc. Some have almost unanimous support. Some more mixed.
13:13:26 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's making noise?
13:13:39 [Zakim]
hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (95%), hhalpin (11%)
13:13:42 [MacTed]
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13:13:52 [tinkster]
DKA: CRUS is on a much lower level than the others; can't really be argued against.
13:13:58 [tinkster]
s/CRUS/CRUD/
13:14:14 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
13:14:24 [tinkster]
Harry: Last time we got up to "Adding new features to Social Networks" case.
13:14:29 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results#xq6
13:14:31 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute OpenLink_Software
13:14:31 [Zakim]
OpenLink_Software should now be muted
13:14:43 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
13:14:43 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
13:14:44 [hhalpin]
Developers should be able to expose existing data in new and interesting ways. But at the same time, people should be made aware of how their data is being used, and updated when this changes
13:14:44 [tinkster]
... To me this is talking mostly about widgets.
13:15:01 [Zakim]
+??P36
13:15:17 [hhalpin]
Maybe we should separate those out
13:15:21 [tinkster]
DKA: There's widgets as in browser-widgets, but also those that live on the page, and APIs, etc. This encompasses both of those aspects.
13:15:21 [hhalpin]
?
13:15:30 [tinkster]
Harry: should separate out?
13:15:32 [Yuk]
??P36 is me
13:15:43 [tinkster]
DKA: Not so sure they should be separate. They seem related.
13:15:45 [DKA]
q?
13:15:45 [hhalpin]
The issue with this usecase is needs a champion
13:16:21 [rreck]
i think there should be an opt in policy about newly added functionality
13:16:26 [rreck]
beuler
13:16:27 [melvster]
I'll champion this one if no one wants to
13:16:28 [tinkster]
hhalpin: Anyone want to champion it?
13:16:55 [tinkster]
DKA: yay for melvster championing.
13:17:31 [hhalpin]
To find the original source of a meme or piece of information.
13:17:33 [tinkster]
hhalpin: Tracking of sources use case. We want to find the original source of the information.
13:17:52 [tinkster]
tinkster: am happy to champion this use case.
13:18:25 [rreck]
i just disagree with christine
13:18:38 [tinkster]
hhalpin: Multiple identities / anonymous identities - merge?
13:18:58 [hhalpin]
To provide information without being the attributed source or “whistle blower”.
13:19:01 [hhalpin]
Anonymous information usecase
13:19:27 [hhalpin]
Provenance is effectivelzy blocked or unknown, i.e. anonymous, or anonymous identity.
13:19:29 [oshani]
q+
13:19:31 [tinkster]
hhalpin: this could also be considered to be merged with source tracking / provenance.
13:19:35 [rreck]
yeah provenance is an anonymous node
13:19:48 [tinkster]
DKA: curious to understand the argument against.
13:20:32 [rreck]
i want to share it, just not have it attributed to me
13:20:43 [tinkster]
oshani: there could be a set of people you are comfortable with sharing information; other people not so much; so have two identities - a real one and a pseudononymous one.
13:20:50 [hhalpin]
anonymous could also be wikileaks-style, i.e. truly anonymous
13:20:51 [oshani]
ack me
13:21:18 [tinkster]
DKA: Not sure this answers the whistleblower use case completely anonymously.
13:21:34 [hhalpin]
this can be accomplished technically via messages sent out over mixminion for example
13:22:24 [rreck]
yeah someone on my street put up a sign saying the water wasnt safe. im sure it made him a target
13:22:31 [DKA]
q?
13:22:31 [tinkster]
DKA: Whistleblower use case more interesting if we look at it from a gov't agency point of view.
13:22:35 [DKA]
ack osch
13:22:40 [bblfish]
what is the problem with having identifiers for people with no info linked to that person?
13:22:48 [bblfish]
s/person/id/
13:22:58 [bblfish]
then you get id, and anonymity
13:23:08 [pchampin]
+1 bblfish
13:23:13 [tinkster]
hhalpin: if rreck wants to champion it, we should keep it around, but note its links to related use cases.
13:23:21 [jsalvachua]
+1 bblfish
13:23:24 [hhalpin]
I think if Ronald wants to champion if Ronald making sure its suitable, especially if we can track back to merging source...
13:24:08 [tinkster]
oshani: From a social net point of view, what does this encompass? How does it relate to e.g. Webcams.
13:24:16 [rreck]
i want to protect my friends from something, but i dont want it tracked to me
13:24:18 [lkagal]
lkagal has joined #swxg
13:24:44 [tinkster]
hhalpin: there exists technical infrastructure that can provide pretty good anonymity.
13:25:02 [rreck]
i think its null provenance
13:25:32 [rreck]
ill talk to oshani offline
13:25:47 [tinkster]
hhalpin: should champions be rewriting use cases, cleaning up, fleshing out?
13:25:50 [tinkster]
DKA: yes/
13:25:54 [melvster]
+1
13:26:00 [hhalpin]
ACTION: rreck to flesh out anonymous usecase connecting to multiple identies and null provenance
13:26:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-71 - Flesh out anonymous usecase connecting to multiple identies and null provenance [on Ronald Reck - due 2009-09-09].
13:26:29 [hhalpin]
"Removing Data or Changing Data permission" Use-case
13:26:53 [tinkster]
hhalpin: next use case is removing data / changing permissions use case. Most people not in favour of keeping. Perhaps use case is too abstract?
13:27:13 [bblfish]
there really is not much text at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Removing_Data_or_Changing_Data_permission
13:27:22 [tinkster]
... relates to the more concrete 10 year and takedown cases.
13:27:36 [tinkster]
... Merge these three use cases?
13:27:42 [hhalpin]
Document Takedowns Propagators" Use-case
13:27:46 [Adam]
are all of them really related to the life cycle management of data?
13:27:56 [tinkster]
DKA: Seems sensible to me.
13:28:22 [rreck]
i think all this case could be solved with obligatory metadata stating time to life
13:28:38 [tinkster]
hhalpin: 10 year use case had a lot of support, no champion. Would oshani like to incorporate this into document takedown?
13:28:43 [tinkster]
oshani: yes, I can do that.
13:28:51 [bblfish]
q+
13:29:00 [tinkster]
hhalpin: 10 years is just a time-related document takedown.
13:29:23 [DKA]
ack bbl
13:29:38 [tinkster]
bblfish: if you do everything by reference (rather than by copying) then you only need to take down the original.
13:29:49 [hhalpin]
ACTION: Oshani to merge document takedown with time-related takedown "forget this in ten years" and more general concept of data removal.
13:29:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-72 - Merge document takedown with time-related takedown "forget this in ten years" and more general concept of data removal. [on Oshani Seneviratne - due 2009-09-09].
13:30:50 [tinkster]
DKA: example is a photo that I've taken, which includes bblfish's face, and bblfish annotates it. Someone else in the photo asked DKA to take down the photo.
13:31:18 [tinkster]
... DKA should be able to remove photo. What happens to annotation? What is bblfish's right to the image vs DKA's right?
13:31:27 [rreck]
DKA's example happened to me
13:31:28 [tinkster]
bblfish: it's complicated - that's true.
13:31:51 [hhalpin]
"Last Will" usecase
13:31:52 [tinkster]
hhalpin: last will and testament use case.
13:31:56 [rreck]
time to life for information
13:32:01 [rreck]
obligatory metadata
13:32:03 [tinkster]
... very popular, but lacking a champion.
13:32:28 [tinkster]
... perhaps should be merged with takedowns? but it's a very special case.
13:32:33 [rreck]
i will champion that but solve it with obligatory metadata
13:32:35 [MacTed]
everybody's gonna... :-)
13:32:44 [tinkster]
DKA: this is something we'll all end up facing!
13:32:50 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
13:32:50 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
13:32:55 [rreck]
+q
13:33:13 [tinkster]
... worth keeping on its own. volunteer champion?
13:33:17 [hhalpin]
Ron?
13:33:39 [DKA]
ack rr
13:33:40 [tinkster]
zakim, who's making noise?
13:33:51 [Zakim]
tinkster, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (5%), MacTed (60%)
13:34:17 [tinkster]
MacTed: this could be solved by including a time-to-live (TTL) for every piece of content.
13:34:20 [hhalpin]
is an option on time-to-life?
13:34:39 [bblfish]
yes, but it is weird. I think that removing information is problematic.
13:34:39 [tinkster]
everyone: "if you know the exact time of your death".
13:34:51 [tinkster]
MacTed: copyright is based on death date.
13:35:13 [Yuk]
it also happens that one's parents/friends want to see his/her history
13:35:14 [tinkster]
tinkster: it's based on the author's death date, but calculated *after* death. (currently)
13:36:09 [tinkster]
Ah, so MacTed above is rreck. (Note to editor!)
13:36:24 [tinkster]
(Or maybe not?)
13:36:30 [hhalpin]
Hmmm...it seems like what we need to do next is move to group permissions
13:36:44 [Adam]
is some of that regarding permissions of access versus time of life?
13:36:49 [tinkster]
Someone: TTL could be fragmented by different groups.
13:37:07 [rreck]
that is an awesome point, its much more complicated than i had appreciated
13:37:15 [hhalpin]
s/Someone/MacTed
13:37:36 [jsalvachua]
unix like permissions?
13:37:52 [tinkster]
DKA: Death use case needs a champion, even if nobody wants to be the "champion of death".
13:38:00 [tinkster]
... I'd be happy to take it on myself.
13:38:32 [rreck]
one of my FB passed, and i wondered what will happen to his page
13:38:50 [hhalpin]
ACTION: DKA to take on "Last Will and Testament Usecase", referencing it as both a legal issue and with regards document takedown
13:38:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-73 - Take on "Last Will and Testament Usecase", referencing it as both a legal issue and with regards document takedown [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2009-09-09].
13:38:51 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
13:38:51 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
13:38:56 [tinkster]
... What happens right now on social networks when people die? What happens if someone is believed dead, their account deleted, and it turns out they're alive?
13:39:16 [danbri]
(de-lurking)
13:39:19 [MacTed]
mostly someone finds their username/password, and assumes ownership of the account ...
13:39:24 [tinkster]
tinkster: there exist facebook memorial pages (I'm told)
13:39:29 [danbri]
i'd like to spend some time chasing up this issue, seems a useful kind of thing for w3c to investigate
13:39:50 [MacTed]
if that doesn't happen, most accounts I've known have just sat there untouched (sometimes years) like any other inactive
13:40:04 [tinkster]
hhalpin: multiple identities use case. champion bblfish?
13:40:06 [hhalpin]
"Multiple Identities" Use-case
13:40:36 [Yuk]
Social network for the dead Respectance crosses the ocean http://thenextweb.com/2008/10/03/social-network-for-the-death-respectance-crosses-the-ocean/
13:40:37 [hhalpin]
Sort of built from multiple identities over multiple networks to metadata about the management of data over multiple networks to access control.
13:40:49 [tinkster]
... Maybe this could be the starting point for other use cases.
13:41:01 [MacTed]
demerits for me, I found no window to review/restructure :-(
13:41:04 [tinkster]
... e.g. identities on mutiple networks.
13:41:23 [tinkster]
bblfish: Multiple identities seems like a good idea - easy to do.
13:41:35 [rreck]
acceptable use is a problem, i dont think FB let's you do it
13:41:45 [tinkster]
hhalpin: Could you maybe merge this with no-password use case?
13:41:50 [hhalpin]
"Using a web service should not involve password or account name creation" Use-case
13:42:02 [hhalpin]
but these seem kinda of technically separate
13:42:17 [hhalpin]
so keep them separate?
13:42:33 [rreck]
tons of cross talk
13:42:38 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute me
13:42:38 [Zakim]
hhalpin should now be muted
13:42:47 [tinkster]
bblfish: the user not needing to have a password doesn't mean they can't identify themselves. It's a question of ease-of-use. A bit technical.
13:42:49 [DKA]
zakim, mute me
13:42:49 [Zakim]
DKA should now be muted
13:42:59 [Adam]
no
13:43:02 [DKA]
zakim, unmute me
13:43:02 [Zakim]
DKA should no longer be muted
13:43:06 [Adam]
think its henrys line
13:43:07 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute me
13:43:07 [Zakim]
hhalpin should no longer be muted
13:43:22 [tinkster]
... repeated setting up of accounts is unnecessary and tedious.
13:43:38 [hhalpin]
are we losing bblfish?
13:43:48 [tinkster]
... data portability problem?
13:44:18 [tinkster]
hhalpin: so bblfish wants to keep multiple identities and passwordless use cases separate?
13:44:43 [tinkster]
bblfish: yes. latter is about ease of use.
13:44:47 [MacTed]
sounds like OpenID?
13:45:06 [jsalvachua]
sorry have to leave, see you.
13:45:15 [Zakim]
-jsalvachua
13:45:16 [rreck]
tough to hear agreed
13:45:27 [bblfish]
another use case that this makes me think of is: Identifiers on SN should not be resold to other people, as this would mess up the web of relations on the web. Eg: people saying they are firends of http://facebook.org/joe#me and then this being reassinged to Joe BadGuy
13:45:33 [tinkster]
DKA: problem with zakim
13:45:36 [Zakim]
-bblfish
13:46:02 [tinkster]
... let's move on; for now Henry as champion for multiple identities.
13:46:04 [rreck]
yes better
13:46:06 [bblfish]
yes, the point is that the DataPortability group have mentioned that loggin in to every web site is a big problem
13:46:15 [bblfish]
This is solved by OpenId, Passport, foaf+ssl
13:46:44 [tinkster]
hhalpin: next use cases are all about group access control.
13:46:58 [bblfish]
the data portability video: http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/data_portability_the_video
13:47:16 [tinkster]
... first is more abstract; second is the concrete example of family-access for a resource.
13:47:24 [rreck]
agreed kinship is cultural
13:47:33 [tinkster]
... Most comments suggest merging these.
13:47:33 [hhalpin]
Distributed Group Access Control" Use-case
13:47:38 [MacTed]
hm.
13:47:39 [Zakim]
+bblfish
13:47:54 [tinkster]
DKA: who would agree on what a family is? link identity to genome?
13:48:07 [tinkster]
hhalpin: who will champion this/these use cases?
13:48:45 [hhalpin]
ACTION: bblfish to merge Family and Group access usecases
13:48:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-74 - Merge Family and Group access usecases [on Henry Story - due 2009-09-09].
13:49:19 [tinkster]
bblfish: yes, I'm championing this. Don't need to link in genome (scribe notes that FOAF does have an appropriate property) - just need to link to your family.
13:49:29 [hhalpin]
Intransitivity of Policies Applied to Social Network Data" Use-cas
13:49:36 [rreck]
but family markedness is cultural
13:49:42 [tinkster]
hhalpin: intransitivity use case.
13:49:50 [oshani]
q+
13:49:51 [rreck]
some cultures mark siblings but not gender
13:49:56 [danbri]
(tinkster - new foaf properties can be had for as little as 5 euros... send me mail :)
13:50:02 [hhalpin]
Current social networking platforms implement very rudimentary data usage policies. These mostly focuses on the immediate individuals concerned and do not have much consideration about the data transfer beyond them. Policy conflicts are also not properly handled. If the policies applied to social networking data are made to be transitive, we can make sure tha
13:50:10 [tinkster]
... if your data moves from one SN to another, your privacy policy can accompany it.
13:50:56 [tinkster]
oshani: facebook quizzes - I'm not just giving out my own data, but my friends' data. This is a problem.
13:51:06 [rreck]
yeah that is a problem
13:51:25 [danbri]
(ah, i read "doesn't" :)
13:51:40 [danbri]
(yeah, dnachecksum started as a joke, but i think a few folk would like a real one!)
13:51:54 [Yuk]
can the friends choose not to have their data being taken from one website to another?
13:52:32 [DKA]
q?
13:52:33 [tinkster]
DKA: oshani, could you find a link to quizzes example?
13:52:35 [DKA]
ack osh
13:53:14 [hhalpin]
ACTION: oshani to flesh out "Intransitivity of Policies Applied to Social Network Data"
13:53:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-75 - Flesh out "Intransitivity of Policies Applied to Social Network Data" [on Oshani Seneviratne - due 2009-09-09].
13:53:28 [tinkster]
hhalpin: bidirectional use case - everyone agreed to drop it. too vague?
13:53:49 [hhalpin]
ACTION: hhalpin to drop bidirectional use case
13:53:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-76 - Drop bidirectional use case [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-09-09].
13:53:50 [rreck]
peer pressure
13:54:39 [tinkster]
... virtual private organisation use case - create a temporary internal (or cross-organisation) network.
13:54:44 [hhalpin]
"Virtual Private Organization" Use-case
13:54:48 [hhalpin]
No champion
13:54:48 [tinkster]
... make sure it doesn't leak data.
13:54:54 [hhalpin]
I thought it came from joaquin...
13:55:05 [tinkster]
DKA: Isn't this the corporate SN use case?
13:55:15 [tinkster]
hhalpin: related to that heavily.
13:55:17 [bblfish]
I suppose this is also very similar to "Distributed Group Access Control"
13:55:21 [bblfish]
q+
13:56:02 [hhalpin]
it is very similar to distributed group access contol.
13:56:09 [tinkster]
Adam: I can champion this use case. Can look at this two ways - internally, people could create their own groups, which they could make private (even within the company) or not.
13:56:14 [tinkster]
... Or is this more complicated.
13:56:52 [tinkster]
DKA: It's pretty bare-bones right now. It seems to point more to organically-growing networks.
13:58:25 [pchampin]
sorry, I have to leave
13:58:27 [rreck]
groove does what you are describing
13:58:34 [hhalpin]
take care pchampin!
13:58:45 [tinkster]
Adam: if you were to create one of these private virtual organisations, people would need to agree to its terms. Right now, our IT dept can create private organisations like this, and use the group to post some specific public content too.
13:59:10 [hhalpin]
maybe add links to Distributed Access control?
13:59:12 [tinkster]
DKA: Can you add this as a sub-usecase?
13:59:43 [Zakim]
-pchampin
13:59:49 [tinkster]
tinkster: if what Adam describes could also take in people and departments at other organisations too.
14:00:00 [pchampin]
pchampin has left #swxg
14:00:33 [tinkster]
bblfish: related to distributed access control, which would be an enabling technology for it.
14:00:52 [tinkster]
DKA: we're at the end of our slot.
14:00:55 [DKA]
Chair: hhalpin
14:01:06 [rreck]
we did pretty well getting through them
14:01:07 [Zakim]
-DKA
14:01:09 [rreck]
bye DKA
14:01:10 [tinkster]
hhalpin: three more use cases to go through. Should we go through them now?
14:01:22 [rreck]
so keep geo is clear
14:01:31 [bblfish]
+1 for talking about these now
14:01:43 [tinkster]
+1
14:01:43 [oshani]
+1
14:01:44 [melvster]
+1
14:02:18 [hhalpin]
ACTION: Adam to work on fleshing on "Virtual Private Organisation Use Case" reference distributed data access control policy
14:02:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-77 - Work on fleshing on "Virtual Private Organisation Use Case" reference distributed data access control policy [on Adam Boyet - due 2009-09-09].
14:02:53 [bblfish]
did we doo the Too Many Channels?
14:03:18 [tinkster]
hhalpin: geo use case. Inferences on location-based contextual data. We should have privacy controls on this, but should be able to share it if we want. Relates to portability and access control.
14:04:02 [tinkster]
oshani: happy to champion this. can't see anything to merge with.
14:04:29 [hhalpin]
"Too many channels" can be move across different channels
14:04:51 [hhalpin]
ACTION: hhalpin to drop "too many channels"
14:04:51 [tinkster]
hhalpin: "too many channels" use case - allow data to move across between different SNs. Pretty much covered by other portability and access use cases. We should drop.
14:04:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-78 - Drop "too many channels" [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-09-09].
14:05:25 [tinkster]
... Data protection use case. This is not easy.
14:05:30 [oshani]
hhalpin, nope, I am not a champion for that
14:05:48 [tinkster]
bblfish: the question is very interesting, but I don't know what the answer is.
14:05:50 [hhalpin]
Alice is not a member of a given walled-garden social network and Bob tags her in an image from an event they were both at. Given that Alice finds out about this image, through word of mouth or by whatever means, should she be able to ask for her depiction to be removed? If she somehow manages to confirm that indeed it was a picture of her, should she be abl
14:06:13 [tinkster]
hhalpin: similar to document takedown perhaps, but also need to look at legal requirements.
14:06:26 [oshani]
I think I M
14:06:29 [Adam]
data protection to me infers controlled access
14:06:39 [hhalpin]
controlled access
14:07:00 [oshani]
s/I M/I am
14:07:50 [hhalpin]
Could be kept separate there...
14:07:53 [Adam]
is this use case more about Alice's right to have the image removed?
14:08:00 [bblfish]
Could be an intro to a number of use cases
14:08:01 [tinkster]
oshani: this is different fron document take down in that it's initiated by an outsider.
14:09:00 [tinkster]
hhalpin: perhaps it needs a bit of rephrasing.
14:09:10 [tinkster]
bblfish: I'll think about that.
14:09:14 [hhalpin]
ACTION: bblfish to relabel data protection use case to be about controlled access and takedown to data "about" you
14:09:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-79 - Relabel data protection use case to be about controlled access and takedown to data "about" you [on Henry Story - due 2009-09-09].
14:09:27 [rreck]
+1 yeah
14:09:42 [bblfish]
we have a few extra use cases that were added
14:09:44 [tinkster]
hhalpin: I think we've managed to drop three use cases and merge about four.
14:09:46 [rreck]
what about the shill one? can we keep it
14:10:24 [tinkster]
... Next week after a bit more boiling down, we can maybe freeze the use cases and start drafting a full document.
14:10:28 [bblfish]
q+
14:10:44 [tinkster]
... Document structure maybe: identity, metadata, access?
14:10:46 [hhalpin]
ack bblfish
14:11:10 [hhalpin]
do you know who added that one?
14:11:25 [tinkster]
I think I might have added one - commercial incentives for social networks to open their data.
14:11:37 [bblfish]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Social_Web_for_Business_Intelligence
14:11:39 [Adam]
yeah, toby did and there was one other as well
14:11:41 [bblfish]
this one perhaps?
14:11:47 [tinkster]
There was bblfish's plastic toy one too.
14:11:49 [oshani]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Current_Location_as_a_Direction
14:12:29 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's noisy?
14:12:40 [Zakim]
MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bblfish (89%)
14:12:48 [rreck]
hhalpin: i added shill
14:12:59 [Adam]
i'm happy to champion the Social Web for Business Intellegence
14:13:14 [tinkster]
Not realy.
14:13:34 [bblfish]
was this one new too http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Shills_Posting_False_Information_to_Dilute_the_Truth
14:13:52 [hhalpin]
OK.
14:14:18 [hhalpin]
oshani and henry
14:14:41 [tinkster]
tinkster: I don't have any special interest in the use case I've recently posted - just wrote it up as I'd been actioned. Someone else can champion.
14:14:54 [bblfish]
yes, I can do that.
14:14:57 [tinkster]
hhalpin: bblfish and oshani to edit full use case document?
14:15:10 [tinkster]
oshani: happy to help.
14:15:22 [tinkster]
bblfish: not edited a w3c doc before.
14:15:31 [bblfish]
don't think I did edit a doc
14:15:36 [bblfish]
apart from wiki
14:16:01 [Zakim]
-??P36
14:16:10 [tinkster]
hhalpin: I'll show you the process next week. Draft it on Wiki; cut out HTML and put it on CVS; then edit it from there.
14:16:21 [bblfish]
ok
14:16:29 [hhalpin]
ACTION: Explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases
14:16:29 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Explain
14:16:39 [hhalpin]
ACTION: hhalpin explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases
14:16:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-80 - Explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-09-09].
14:16:47 [tinkster]
hhalpin: that's all folks.
14:16:49 [hhalpin]
Meeting adjourned
14:16:52 [rreck]
bubye
14:16:56 [tinkster]
... sorry for overrunning.
14:16:57 [bblfish]
ok by
14:17:13 [rreck]
i wont be here next week.
14:17:23 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:17:29 [hhalpin]
trackbot, end meeting
14:17:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
14:17:29 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +95177aaaa, rreck, melvster, tinkster, pchampin, DKA, +1.314.683.aabb, bblfish, caribou, AlexPassant, hhalpin, Adam, AndreaP,
14:17:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:17:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
14:17:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-actions.rdf :
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: rreck to flesh out anonymous usecase connecting to multiple identies and null provenance [1]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T13-26-00
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Oshani to merge document takedown with time-related takedown "forget this in ten years" and more general concept of data removal. [2]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T13-29-49
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DKA to take on "Last Will and Testament Usecase", referencing it as both a legal issue and with regards document takedown [3]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T13-38-50
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: bblfish to merge Family and Group access usecases [4]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T13-48-45
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: oshani to flesh out "Intransitivity of Policies Applied to Social Network Data" [5]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T13-53-14
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: hhalpin to drop bidirectional use case [6]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T13-53-49
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Adam to work on fleshing on "Virtual Private Organisation Use Case" reference distributed data access control policy [7]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T14-02-18
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: hhalpin to drop "too many channels" [8]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T14-04-51
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: bblfish to relabel data protection use case to be about controlled access and takedown to data "about" you [9]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T14-09-14
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases [10]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T14-16-29
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: hhalpin explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases [11]
14:17:31 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc#T14-16-39
14:17:33 [Zakim]
... +34.91.549.aacc, jsalvachua, oshani, MacTed
14:17:43 [melvster]
bye
14:17:45 [Zakim]
-oshani
14:17:47 [Zakim]
-tinkster
14:17:48 [Zakim]
-MacTed
14:17:49 [Zakim]
-caribou
14:17:50 [Zakim]
-Adam
14:17:50 [Zakim]
-rreck
14:17:52 [Zakim]
-bblfish
14:18:06 [Zakim]
-melvster