IRC log of CSS on 2009-09-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:37:00 [RRSAgent]
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15:37:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:37:10 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:37:10 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
15:37:24 [glazou]
rrsagent make logs public
15:38:01 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make log public
15:47:08 [fantasai]
Welcome back!
15:47:17 [glazou]
thanks fantasai
15:52:28 [sylvaing]
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15:53:14 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:53:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.281.712.aaaa
15:55:10 [fantasai]
Zakim, +1.281 is TabAtkins
15:55:10 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
15:56:17 [fantasai]
fantasai has changed the topic to: CSS Working Group discussion
15:57:04 [Zakim]
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16:01:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aabb
16:01:20 [sylvaing]
Zakim, +1.206.324 is sylvaing
16:01:22 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:01:28 [Zakim]
+ +34.60.940.aacc
16:02:00 [glazou]
Zakim, +34.60.940 is CesarAcebal
16:02:00 [Zakim]
+CesarAcebal; got it
16:02:17 [glazou]
hi ChrisL
16:02:20 [Zakim]
16:02:36 [ChrisL]
hi glazou
16:02:41 [glazou]
ChrisL: appends to me often too with VoIP
16:03:15 [Zakim]
16:04:39 [glazou]
sylvaing: I'll try that next time
16:06:04 [Zakim]
16:06:22 [fantasai]
Zakim, Steve is fantasai
16:06:22 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
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16:06:58 [glazou]
Steve is fantasai ?-)
16:07:33 [sylvaing]
glazou: sounds like Mozilla's implementation of transitions is pretty aggressive....
16:07:40 [fantasai]
who's minuting?
16:07:48 [glazou]
sylvaing: define aggressive ?-)
16:07:55 [glazou]
fantasai: that's outside of the call
16:08:01 [ChrisL]
box. I still want the box to be rectangular.
16:08:02 [glazou]
we did not start yet
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16:08:34 [Zakim]
16:09:10 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:09:22 [fantasai]
Glazou: I'm back from summer break, not quite caught up with everything
16:09:29 [fantasai]
Glazou: Extra agenda item from Chris
16:09:35 [fantasai]
ChrisL: It's already in the Agenda
16:09:42 [fantasai]
16:09:45 [fantasai]
16:09:55 [fantasai]
Topic: box-shadow and border-image
16:10:26 [fantasai]
ChrisL: ...
16:10:33 [fantasai]
ChrisL: You know the diagram with the border and padding edge etc?
16:10:45 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Imagine a similar diagram with the corners rounded
16:11:07 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I asked which diagram we use (?)
16:11:28 [ChrisL]
16:11:50 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Bert said the boxes should be rectangular
16:12:04 [fantasai]
ChrisL: but you have a different clipping effect
16:12:28 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I also asked if the border-image affects the geometric layout of these boxes
16:12:37 [fantasai]
ChrisL: And I was told no, it doesn't
16:13:32 [Zakim]
16:15:16 [fantasai]
16:15:33 [fantasai]
Brad: So the question is, when is the border-radius applied and when is it not
16:15:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: The border-radius is applied to the definition of the boxes for rendering effects, but not for layout
16:16:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: for layout you only care about the edges, not the shape of the corners
16:17:26 [TabAtkins]
16:17:29 [fantasai]
ChrisL: So there's no way to prevent text from leaking other than providing sufficient padding
16:17:32 [fantasai]
fantasai: right
16:17:35 [sylvaing]
CSS2 borders clip at the inner border edge; Brad's example clipped at the outer border edge
16:17:42 [fantasai]
ChrisL: was the rendering that Brad showed per spec or an implementation bug?
16:18:06 [fantasai]
fantasai: Implementation bug. The spec says to follow the curve for clipping effects, jumping from one curve to the other isn't a reasonable interpretation
16:18:40 [fantasai]
ChrisL: fantasai's suggesting this particular unioning algorithm
16:19:09 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I think it'll look a little odd. I can produce images that look good, and some that look bad with it
16:19:24 [fantasai]
ChrisL: You don't need to do edge detection
16:20:14 [fantasai]
ChrisL: As you rightly pointed out, spread is a complicated operation and if you have a raster image it's out of the question
16:20:52 [fantasai]
ChrisL: blur radius is fine, but spread basically moves the geometry out and that's difficult to do without actual geometry
16:21:15 [fantasai]
Brad: I disagree with the notion of doing alpha channel for box channel without taking into account border styles or backgrounds
16:21:27 [fantasai]
Brad: I don't see why border-image should have a special alpha-based channel behavior
16:21:47 [fantasai]
Brad: I'd rather see a proper drop-shadow effect rather than this half-effort for border-image
16:22:10 [fantasai]
ChrisL: It's hard to address pieces of the border image otherwise
16:22:35 [fantasai]
Brad: If we had a drop-shadow property, it could have a switch on it that says what it affects: borders, border-images, everything, etc.
16:22:48 [fantasai]
Brad: So far box-shadow only takes into account the border box
16:23:02 [fantasai]
ChrisL: it does take into account border-radius
16:23:13 [fantasai]
Brad: Still limited to flat edges and possibly curved corners
16:23:20 [fantasai]
Brad: If you have a dashed border going around the curve
16:23:28 [fantasai]
Brad: It's going to be a flat border until you put a border image
16:24:14 [fantasai]
Brad: You'd get a different effect if you had a border-image shashed border vs a UA-defined dashed border
16:24:42 [ChrisL]
16:27:39 [fantasai]
fantasai: Two things come to mind from this discussion
16:28:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: One is, we could use the background-clip on the bottommost background layer to determine whether the dashes fall inside the box-shadow's auto-opaque area or outside it
16:28:29 [fantasai]
fantasai: box-shadow is supposed to represent clipping the box out and pulling it forward of the canvas
16:28:55 [fantasai]
fantasai: if you filled it with background paint, then it's obvious that in the default case (background-clip: border-box) your box would be rectangular even in the case of dashed borders
16:29:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: but if you set background-clip: padding-box, the dashes are outside the background paint region
16:29:21 [fantasai]
fantasai: and if you were clipping out the box, you'd clip around the dashes, leaving gaps in between
16:29:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: the other thought was, Brad mentioned perhaps never alpha-channel-masking the border area
16:30:07 [fantasai]
fantasai: and if the author needed alpha-channel masking, it would only apply to regions of the border-image outset beyond the border-box
16:31:10 [fantasai]
TJ: If we're trying to be intelligent about alpha, we can't just pay attention to the bottommost background unless we say background is automatically opaque
16:31:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: we're saying that the background is automatically opaque
16:31:59 [fantasai]
Brad: The box shape that you're shadowing, it's not really paying attention to the alpha of the box it's just pretending it's opaque
16:33:52 [fantasai]
16:34:37 [fantasai]
Brad things authors will want more controls over what is drop-shadowed
16:36:07 [fantasai]
fantasai: we can always add more controls later, and this would just be the default behavior
16:36:17 [fantasai]
16:36:29 [fantasai]
Tab: Maye be don't need to make this behavior that intelligent then
16:37:01 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I was agreeing with fantasai, but now I see both designers not happy
16:37:35 [fantasai]
ChrisL: If we make it less intelligent, then you always get a rectangle
16:38:00 [fantasai]
Brad: Initially my feeling was to suppress the shadow, because of your argument that we're not changing the box shape we're just decorating it
16:42:04 [Bert]
(Maybe we can define shaped boxes some day, which shape the content box and hence the text, rather than just the border...)
16:42:07 [fantasai]
fantasai: How about you take an action item to draw up a proposal for what kind of controls we want in the future
16:42:17 [fantasai]
fantasai: so that we know whether box-shadow conflicts with that or adds to it
16:42:34 [fantasai]
SteveZ: Two comments. First, this is hard to follow without pictures
16:42:50 [ChrisL]
I'm happy to make diagrams, once we decide what to make a diagram *of*
16:46:43 [glazou]
did I hear howcome on the call ?
16:46:57 [glazou]
who said "'I support Bert" ?
16:47:49 [fantasai]
SteveZ: Second, what I'm hearing is that Tab and Brad want to shine a light throught the box, and take the shadow from that, and having part of the border-image take part in that and part of it not
16:48:13 [fantasai]
Brad: I like the idea of using backgrond-clip to determine which box gets shadowed
16:48:23 [fantasai]
Bert, Hakon: I think it makes it all too complicated
16:49:03 [fantasai]
ACTION: Brad to come up with full shadow proposal (not finalized, but to see where we're going)
16:49:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-174 - Come up with full shadow proposal (not finalized, but to see where we're going) [on Brad Kemper - due 2009-09-09].
16:49:24 [fantasai]
ACTION: fantasai draw up proposal for box-shadow modified by ideas posted here
16:49:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-175 - Draw up proposal for box-shadow modified by ideas posted here [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-09-09].
16:50:01 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Republish Media Queries and CSS 2.1 after Bert adds media_list grammar rule
16:51:32 [fantasai]
discussion of process requirements for republishing CRs
16:52:09 [fantasai]
CSS2.1 Issue 128
16:52:15 [glazou]
16:52:16 [fantasai]
display: run-in clarifications
16:52:29 [fantasai]
Bert: We'd made some progress on the mailing list after some very good questions from bz
16:52:46 [fantasai]
Bert: So we know ... and where floating children are displayed
16:52:56 [fantasai]
Bert: What we don't have yet is what happens with :first-line and :first-letter
16:53:27 [fantasai]
Tab: I support Sylvain that :first-line/:first-letter still cause problems.
16:53:53 [fantasai]
Tab: Don't know for the positioning ancesters of an abspos child of the run-in.
16:54:16 [fantasai]
Bert: My position is that it's the element hierarchy rather than the box hierarchy
16:54:24 [fantasai]
Bert: That's how I interpret the rules in 10.1
16:54:39 [fantasai]
Tab: You should get in on the thread; bz is expressing the opposite
16:55:36 [fantasai]
fantasai: Sounds like we need more mailing list discussion
16:55:44 [glazou]
16:55:46 [fantasai]
Topic: Message from UPnP forum
16:56:08 [fantasai]
Daniel: I just noticed this email yesterday
16:56:17 [fantasai]
Daniel: Apparently Toby wants an answer before today
16:56:52 [fantasai]
ACTION: fantasai respond to Toby
16:56:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-176 - Respond to Toby [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-09-09].
16:57:18 [fantasai]
SteveZ: You can invite them to contribute test cases
16:57:29 [fantasai]
ChrisL: I think asking them to help review test cases would be better :)
16:57:40 [fantasai]
SteveZ: ok, /contribute/ to the test suite process
16:58:48 [fantasai]
Meeting closed
16:58:53 [Zakim]
16:58:54 [Zakim]
16:58:54 [Zakim]
16:58:55 [Zakim]
16:58:56 [Zakim]
16:58:56 [Zakim]
16:58:57 [Zakim]
16:58:59 [Zakim]
16:59:09 [Zakim]
16:59:16 [fantasai]
Zakim, who was here?
16:59:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, fantasai.
16:59:34 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
16:59:34 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.281.712.aaaa, TabAtkins, Daniel_Glazman, bradk, +1.206.324.aabb, sylvaing, +34.60.940.aacc, CesarAcebal, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ,
16:59:37 [Zakim]
... Hakon_Lie
16:59:40 [glazou]
fantasai: TJ, brad, glazou, chrisl, cesaracebal, howcome, bert, sylvaing
16:59:46 [glazou]
16:59:46 [Zakim]
16:59:48 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:59:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.281.712.aaaa, TabAtkins, Daniel_Glazman, bradk, +1.206.324.aabb, sylvaing, +34.60.940.aacc, CesarAcebal, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ, Hakon_Lie
16:59:54 [CesarAcebal]
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17:00:04 [bradk]
"Brad: Initially my feeling was to suppress the shadow, because of your argument that we're not changing the box shape we're just decorating it" s/b "Brad: Initially my feeling was to suppress the shadow, but changed that because of the argument that we're not changing the box shape we're just decorating it"
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