15:37:00 RRSAgent has joined #CSS 15:37:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-CSS-irc 15:37:10 Zakim, this will be Style 15:37:10 ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes 15:37:24 rrsagent make logs public 15:38:01 RRSAgent, make log public 15:47:08 Welcome back! 15:47:17 thanks fantasai 15:52:28 sylvaing has joined #css 15:53:14 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started 15:53:16 + +1.281.712.aaaa 15:55:10 Zakim, +1.281 is TabAtkins 15:55:10 +TabAtkins; got it 15:56:17 fantasai has changed the topic to: CSS Working Group discussion 15:57:04 +Daniel_Glazman 15:57:06 -Daniel_Glazman 15:57:06 +Daniel_Glazman 15:57:15 oyvinds has joined #css 15:58:30 bradk has joined #css 15:59:12 +bradk 16:00:10 ChrisL has joined #css 16:00:30 CesarAcebal has joined #css 16:01:04 + +1.206.324.aabb 16:01:20 Zakim, +1.206.324 is sylvaing 16:01:22 +sylvaing; got it 16:01:28 + +34.60.940.aacc 16:02:00 Zakim, +34.60.940 is CesarAcebal 16:02:00 +CesarAcebal; got it 16:02:17 hi ChrisL 16:02:20 +Bert 16:02:36 hi glazou 16:02:41 ChrisL: appends to me often too with VoIP 16:03:15 +ChrisL 16:04:39 sylvaing: I'll try that next time 16:06:04 +Steve 16:06:22 Zakim, Steve is fantasai 16:06:22 +fantasai; got it 16:06:57 Lachy has joined #css 16:06:58 Steve is fantasai ?-) 16:07:33 glazou: sounds like Mozilla's implementation of transitions is pretty aggressive.... 16:07:40 who's minuting? 16:07:48 sylvaing: define aggressive ?-) 16:07:55 fantasai: that's outside of the call 16:08:01 box. I still want the box to be rectangular. 16:08:02 we did not start yet 16:08:04 szilles has joined #css 16:08:34 +SteveZ 16:09:10 ScribeNick: fantasai 16:09:22 Glazou: I'm back from summer break, not quite caught up with everything 16:09:29 Glazou: Extra agenda item from Chris 16:09:35 ChrisL: It's already in the Agenda 16:09:42 s/Glazou/Daniel/ 16:09:45 s/Glazou/Daniel/ 16:09:55 Topic: box-shadow and border-image 16:10:26 ChrisL: ... 16:10:33 ChrisL: You know the diagram with the border and padding edge etc? 16:10:45 ChrisL: Imagine a similar diagram with the corners rounded 16:11:07 ChrisL: I asked which diagram we use (?) 16:11:28 http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/images/boxdim.png 16:11:50 ChrisL: Bert said the boxes should be rectangular 16:12:04 ChrisL: but you have a different clipping effect 16:12:28 ChrisL: I also asked if the border-image affects the geometric layout of these boxes 16:12:37 ChrisL: And I was told no, it doesn't 16:13:32 +Hakon_Lie 16:15:16 ... 16:15:33 Brad: So the question is, when is the border-radius applied and when is it not 16:15:46 fantasai: The border-radius is applied to the definition of the boxes for rendering effects, but not for layout 16:16:46 fantasai: for layout you only care about the edges, not the shape of the corners 16:17:26 http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/curved-corner-image.html 16:17:29 ChrisL: So there's no way to prevent text from leaking other than providing sufficient padding 16:17:32 fantasai: right 16:17:35 CSS2 borders clip at the inner border edge; Brad's example clipped at the outer border edge 16:17:42 ChrisL: was the rendering that Brad showed per spec or an implementation bug? 16:18:06 fantasai: Implementation bug. The spec says to follow the curve for clipping effects, jumping from one curve to the other isn't a reasonable interpretation 16:18:40 ChrisL: fantasai's suggesting this particular unioning algorithm 16:19:09 ChrisL: I think it'll look a little odd. I can produce images that look good, and some that look bad with it 16:19:24 ChrisL: You don't need to do edge detection 16:20:14 ChrisL: As you rightly pointed out, spread is a complicated operation and if you have a raster image it's out of the question 16:20:52 ChrisL: blur radius is fine, but spread basically moves the geometry out and that's difficult to do without actual geometry 16:21:15 Brad: I disagree with the notion of doing alpha channel for box channel without taking into account border styles or backgrounds 16:21:27 Brad: I don't see why border-image should have a special alpha-based channel behavior 16:21:47 Brad: I'd rather see a proper drop-shadow effect rather than this half-effort for border-image 16:22:10 ChrisL: It's hard to address pieces of the border image otherwise 16:22:35 Brad: If we had a drop-shadow property, it could have a switch on it that says what it affects: borders, border-images, everything, etc. 16:22:48 Brad: So far box-shadow only takes into account the border box 16:23:02 ChrisL: it does take into account border-radius 16:23:13 Brad: Still limited to flat edges and possibly curved corners 16:23:20 Brad: If you have a dashed border going around the curve 16:23:28 Brad: It's going to be a flat border until you put a border image 16:24:14 Brad: You'd get a different effect if you had a border-image shashed border vs a UA-defined dashed border 16:24:42 http://www.bradclicks.com/cssplay/border-image/Alladins_Lamp.png 16:27:39 fantasai: Two things come to mind from this discussion 16:28:13 fantasai: One is, we could use the background-clip on the bottommost background layer to determine whether the dashes fall inside the box-shadow's auto-opaque area or outside it 16:28:29 fantasai: box-shadow is supposed to represent clipping the box out and pulling it forward of the canvas 16:28:55 fantasai: if you filled it with background paint, then it's obvious that in the default case (background-clip: border-box) your box would be rectangular even in the case of dashed borders 16:29:09 fantasai: but if you set background-clip: padding-box, the dashes are outside the background paint region 16:29:21 fantasai: and if you were clipping out the box, you'd clip around the dashes, leaving gaps in between 16:29:47 fantasai: the other thought was, Brad mentioned perhaps never alpha-channel-masking the border area 16:30:07 fantasai: and if the author needed alpha-channel masking, it would only apply to regions of the border-image outset beyond the border-box 16:31:10 TJ: If we're trying to be intelligent about alpha, we can't just pay attention to the bottommost background unless we say background is automatically opaque 16:31:33 fantasai: we're saying that the background is automatically opaque 16:31:59 Brad: The box shape that you're shadowing, it's not really paying attention to the alpha of the box it's just pretending it's opaque 16:33:52 ... 16:34:37 Brad things authors will want more controls over what is drop-shadowed 16:36:07 fantasai: we can always add more controls later, and this would just be the default behavior 16:36:17 s/TJ/Tab/ 16:36:29 Tab: Maye be don't need to make this behavior that intelligent then 16:37:01 ChrisL: I was agreeing with fantasai, but now I see both designers not happy 16:37:35 ChrisL: If we make it less intelligent, then you always get a rectangle 16:38:00 Brad: Initially my feeling was to suppress the shadow, because of your argument that we're not changing the box shape we're just decorating it 16:42:04 (Maybe we can define shaped boxes some day, which shape the content box and hence the text, rather than just the border...) 16:42:07 fantasai: How about you take an action item to draw up a proposal for what kind of controls we want in the future 16:42:17 fantasai: so that we know whether box-shadow conflicts with that or adds to it 16:42:34 SteveZ: Two comments. First, this is hard to follow without pictures 16:42:50 I'm happy to make diagrams, once we decide what to make a diagram *of* 16:46:43 did I hear howcome on the call ? 16:46:57 who said "'I support Bert" ? 16:47:49 SteveZ: Second, what I'm hearing is that Tab and Brad want to shine a light throught the box, and take the shadow from that, and having part of the border-image take part in that and part of it not 16:48:13 Brad: I like the idea of using backgrond-clip to determine which box gets shadowed 16:48:23 Bert, Hakon: I think it makes it all too complicated 16:49:03 ACTION: Brad to come up with full shadow proposal (not finalized, but to see where we're going) 16:49:03 Created ACTION-174 - Come up with full shadow proposal (not finalized, but to see where we're going) [on Brad Kemper - due 2009-09-09]. 16:49:24 ACTION: fantasai draw up proposal for box-shadow modified by ideas posted here 16:49:24 Created ACTION-175 - Draw up proposal for box-shadow modified by ideas posted here [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-09-09]. 16:50:01 RESOLVED: Republish Media Queries and CSS 2.1 after Bert adds media_list grammar rule 16:51:32 discussion of process requirements for republishing CRs 16:52:09 CSS2.1 Issue 128 16:52:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0025.html 16:52:16 display: run-in clarifications 16:52:29 Bert: We'd made some progress on the mailing list after some very good questions from bz 16:52:46 Bert: So we know ... and where floating children are displayed 16:52:56 Bert: What we don't have yet is what happens with :first-line and :first-letter 16:53:27 Tab: I support Sylvain that :first-line/:first-letter still cause problems. 16:53:53 Tab: Don't know for the positioning ancesters of an abspos child of the run-in. 16:54:16 Bert: My position is that it's the element hierarchy rather than the box hierarchy 16:54:24 Bert: That's how I interpret the rules in 10.1 16:54:39 Tab: You should get in on the thread; bz is expressing the opposite 16:55:36 fantasai: Sounds like we need more mailing list discussion 16:55:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Aug/0605.html 16:55:46 Topic: Message from UPnP forum 16:56:08 Daniel: I just noticed this email yesterday 16:56:17 Daniel: Apparently Toby wants an answer before today 16:56:52 ACTION: fantasai respond to Toby 16:56:52 Created ACTION-176 - Respond to Toby [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-09-09]. 16:57:18 SteveZ: You can invite them to contribute test cases 16:57:29 ChrisL: I think asking them to help review test cases would be better :) 16:57:40 SteveZ: ok, /contribute/ to the test suite process 16:58:48 Meeting closed 16:58:53 -ChrisL 16:58:54 -SteveZ 16:58:54 -TabAtkins 16:58:55 -Hakon_Lie 16:58:56 -sylvaing 16:58:56 -bradk 16:58:57 -Bert 16:58:59 -CesarAcebal 16:59:09 -Daniel_Glazman 16:59:16 Zakim, who was here? 16:59:16 I don't understand your question, fantasai. 16:59:34 zakim, list attendees 16:59:34 As of this point the attendees have been +1.281.712.aaaa, TabAtkins, Daniel_Glazman, bradk, +1.206.324.aabb, sylvaing, +34.60.940.aacc, CesarAcebal, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ, 16:59:37 ... Hakon_Lie 16:59:40 fantasai: TJ, brad, glazou, chrisl, cesaracebal, howcome, bert, sylvaing 16:59:46 stevez 16:59:46 -fantasai 16:59:48 Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended 16:59:49 Attendees were +1.281.712.aaaa, TabAtkins, Daniel_Glazman, bradk, +1.206.324.aabb, sylvaing, +34.60.940.aacc, CesarAcebal, Bert, ChrisL, fantasai, SteveZ, Hakon_Lie 16:59:54 CesarAcebal has left #css 17:00:04 "Brad: Initially my feeling was to suppress the shadow, because of your argument that we're not changing the box shape we're just decorating it" s/b "Brad: Initially my feeling was to suppress the shadow, but changed that because of the argument that we're not changing the box shape we're just decorating it" 17:31:41 dbaron has joined #css 17:56:13 szilles has joined #css 19:05:17 Zakim has left #CSS 20:12:22 Curt`|busy has joined #css 20:13:55 Hixie has joined #css 20:35:58 Lachy has joined #css 20:45:28 Lachy has joined #css 22:03:08 annevk has joined #css