IRC log of rif on 2009-09-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:46:52 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rif

14:46:52 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-irc

14:47:04 [ChrisW]

zakim, this will be rif

14:47:04 [Zakim]

ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes

14:47:09 [ChrisW]

Chair: Chris Welty

14:47:19 [ChrisW]

Meeting: RIF Telecon 1-Sept-09

14:47:25 [ChrisW]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0037.html

14:47:33 [ChrisW]

zakim, clear agenda

14:47:33 [Zakim]

agenda cleared

14:47:39 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:47:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html ChrisW

14:47:57 [ChrisW]

agenda+ admin

14:48:01 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Liason

14:48:06 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Action Review

14:48:12 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Exit Criteria

14:48:21 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Publications

14:48:31 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Implementations

14:48:38 [ChrisW]

agenda+ RIF&XML

14:48:42 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Test Cases

14:48:46 [ChrisW]

agenda+ AOB

14:49:15 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make logs public

14:51:07 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

14:51:08 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from ChrisW]

14:54:03 [Harold]

Harold has joined #rif

14:57:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]

LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif

14:57:56 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started

14:57:57 [Zakim]

+Leora_Morgenstern

15:00:23 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:00:25 [Zakim]

-[IBM]

15:00:25 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:00:31 [ChrisW]

zakim, IBM is temporarily me

15:00:31 [Zakim]

+ChrisW; got it

15:01:07 [mdean]

mdean has joined #rif

15:01:45 [Zakim]

+Sandro

15:02:24 [ChrisW]

Scribe: LeoraMorgenstern

15:02:55 [johnhall]

johnhall has joined #rif

15:03:14 [Zakim]

+[NRCC]

15:03:59 [StellaMitchell]

StellaMitchell has joined #rif

15:04:01 [Harold]

zakim, [NRCC] is me

15:04:01 [Zakim]

+Harold; got it

15:05:19 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:05:19 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold

15:05:45 [Zakim]

+Stella_Mitchell

15:06:01 [josb]

josb has joined #rif

15:06:17 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:06:17 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:07:54 [Zakim]

+ +39.047.101.aaaa

15:09:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]

sandro, chris: OWL, like RIF, relies on XSD 1.1., and that is still in candidate recommendation.

15:10:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]

sandro: prognosis for XML schema datatypes is not promising.

15:11:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]

sandro: OWL will have an appendix referring to XML schema datatypes.

15:11:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]

sandro: and RIF can do something similar.

15:11:47 [ChrisW]

q?

15:11:51 [ChrisW]

next item

15:11:53 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Nothing else in liaison.

15:11:54 [sandro]

action: sandro to make sure if OWL does a normative appendix for XSD 1.1, that it's phrased in a way that makes it also work for RIF.

15:11:54 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-903 - Make sure if OWL does a normative appendix for XSD 1.1, that it's phrased in a way that makes it also work for RIF. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-09-08].

15:12:29 [ChrisW]

close action-902

15:12:29 [trackbot]

ACTION-902 Look at message from Nick B. and check FLD schema closed

15:13:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]

close action-898

15:13:29 [trackbot]

ACTION-898 Answer faq 3.9 closed

15:15:41 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:15:41 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Publications" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:15:53 [ChrisW]

zakim, list agenda

15:15:53 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:

15:15:54 [Zakim]

5. Publications [from ChrisW]

15:15:54 [Zakim]

6. Implementations [from ChrisW]

15:15:56 [Zakim]

7. RIF&XML [from ChrisW]

15:15:57 [Zakim]

8. Test Cases [from ChrisW]

15:15:59 [Zakim]

9. AOB [from ChrisW]

15:17:10 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 4

15:17:10 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Exit Criteria" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:17:19 [josb]

josb has joined #rif

15:17:55 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Exit_Criteria

15:17:58 [Zakim]

+??P0

15:18:17 [johnhall]

zakim ??p0 is me

15:18:32 [johnhall]

zakim, mute me

15:18:32 [Zakim]

sorry, johnhall, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

15:18:40 [johnhall]

P0

15:19:31 [johnhall]

zakim P0 is me

15:20:11 [johnhall]

Thanks Jos

15:20:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]

LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif

15:20:44 [johnhall]

zakim, mute me

15:20:44 [Zakim]

johnhall should now be muted

15:21:14 [sandro]

q+

15:21:20 [ChrisW]

ack sandro

15:21:48 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: The exit criteria for RIF are listed at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Exit_Criteria

15:22:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: I am concerned that Chris's revision to my proposal --- namely, reducing the requirement from implementing a dialect of FLD to merely specifying the dialect --- is putting the bar too low.

15:23:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: I don't think it's too high a burden to require an implementation.

15:23:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: I think it's an unnecessary burden.

15:24:20 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Regarding Sandro's point that someone can just flip through FLD and figure out how to have some sort of (trivial?) instantiation: Someone can also just say that they have an implementation.

15:24:40 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: Shouldn't they at least have to show that they can read and write XML?

15:25:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Implementation tests the dialect, not the implementation.

15:25:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]

oh, scratch that: It should be:

15:25:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Implementation tests the dialect, not FLD.

15:25:54 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: I won't object; just wanted to make the point.

15:26:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Harold: Should we also require a syntax and semantics for the dialect specification?

15:27:20 [ChrisW]

q?

15:27:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris thereupon made that change to the Exit Criteria.

15:28:38 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=Exit_Criteria&oldid=10799 as RIF CR Exit criteria

15:29:04 [josb]

+1

15:29:05 [StellaMitchell]

+1

15:29:06 [Harold]

+1

15:29:07 [ChrisW]

+1

15:29:07 [sandro]

+1

15:29:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]

+1

15:29:12 [johnhall]

+1

15:29:20 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the call?

15:29:20 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, josb, johnhall (muted)

15:29:44 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=Exit_Criteria&oldid=10799 as RIF CR Exit criteria

15:29:53 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, ptr?

15:29:53 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'ptr'

15:30:02 [ChrisW]

zakim, ptr?

15:30:02 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, ChrisW.

15:30:06 [sandro]

RRSAgent, pointer?

15:30:06 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-irc#T15-30-06

15:30:34 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 5

15:30:35 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Publications" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:31:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Editors need to make changes to their Last Call documents: BLD, PRD, DTB, SWC, FLD

15:32:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Needs to be done by next week's meeting.

15:32:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: (above) also Core

15:33:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Assignments: Jos, SWC; Chris, DTB; Christian, PRD; Harold, BLD, FLD, Core.

15:33:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: Even if no changes have been made, note that there have been no changes since Last Call draft.

15:35:19 [sandro]

target publication date: Setp 17

15:35:37 [sandro]

try to approve WD pubs of Test and UCR on Sept 15.

15:36:29 [ChrisW]

q?

15:36:39 [sandro]

PROPOSED: Our Last Call drafts (Core, BLD, PRD, DTB, SWC, and FLD) are ready to be published as Candidate Recommendations

15:36:48 [ChrisW]

+1

15:36:55 [sandro]

+1 (W3C)

15:36:56 [ChrisW]

(IBM)

15:36:59 [Harold]

+1 (NRC)

15:37:00 [josb]

+1 (FUB)

15:37:01 [johnhall]

+1 (OMG)

15:37:12 [StellaMitchell]

+1 (self)

15:37:14 [LeoraMorgenstern]

+1 (self)

15:37:43 [sandro]

RESOLVED: Our Last Call drafts (Core, BLD, PRD, DTB, SWC, and FLD) are ready to be published as Candidate Recommendations

15:39:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: Note that the statement of no changes or changes to last call drafts is CRITICAL PATH, and therefore should be done today or tomorrow.

15:40:00 [sandro]

"Change since the 3 July draft...." or "Changes since the Second Last Call draft of 3 July..."

15:40:00 [josb]

tomorrow is fine for SWC changes statement

15:40:11 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 6

15:40:11 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "Implementations" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:40:15 [sandro]

rrsagent, pointer?

15:40:15 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-irc#T15-40-15

15:40:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Since we have moved last call documents to candidate recommendation, we are now in the call for implementations period.

15:41:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: We had originally talked about a two-month period for implementations.

15:41:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: To get out of CR, we need implementations.

15:41:31 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: Yes, those are in the exit criteria.

15:41:33 [csma]

csma has joined #rif

15:41:35 [sandro]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/How_to_Submit_an_Implementation_Report

15:41:50 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: we want to point people to the above wiki page.

15:42:09 [Zakim]

+??P6

15:42:28 [sandro]

zakim, ??P6 is csma

15:42:28 [Zakim]

+csma; got it

15:42:36 [csma]

zakim, ??P6 is me

15:42:36 [Zakim]

I already had ??P6 as csma, csma

15:42:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Now is the time to follow up with people who indicated in the comments that they would be interested in providing an implementation.

15:43:15 [csma]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:43:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, josb, johnhall (muted), csma

15:43:55 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: We need to get commitments from these people that they will do this in this period.

15:44:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Let's begin by making a list of people who will do implementations.

15:44:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: ILOG is working on an implementation. A month ago, we had a first prototype running, so we probably have more going on now.

15:45:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]

sandro: I don't know if I'll get one done.

15:45:30 [Zakim]

+Mike_Dean

15:45:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Someone in the XML group at IBM made a RIF-based rule storage system. Really a demo of XML X-query technology, but they did take some rules and translated them to RIF, and stored them in RIF-XML, and queried them.

15:45:55 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: question: does that count as a RIF implementation?

15:46:07 [ChrisW]

action: try to dig up XML RIF store

15:46:07 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - try

15:46:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: Mike Dean has an implementation.

15:46:21 [ChrisW]

action: Chris to try to dig up XML RIF store

15:46:21 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-904 - Try to dig up XML RIF store [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-08].

15:46:29 [LeoraMorgenstern]

mdean: RIF implementation is in progress.

15:46:53 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Silk (??) will be an implementation of BLD.

15:48:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: Gary mentioned he was doing something, but I don't know the status of it now.

15:48:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: will send Gary a message, asking for status.

15:48:20 [ChrisW]

action: Christian to ask Gary about status of implementation

15:48:20 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-905 - Ask Gary about status of implementation [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-08].

15:49:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: I think Adrian is working with tipco on an implementation of PRD.

15:49:25 [LeoraMorgenstern]

s/tipco/tibco

15:50:28 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_Working_Group

15:51:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: maybe we should have a RIF Dev mailing list, similar to OWL dev?

15:51:25 [sandro]

action: sandro request creation of public-rif-dev

15:51:25 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-906 - Request creation of public-rif-dev [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-09-08].

15:52:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Rolf someone or other said something about wanting disjunction in rule heads (look up and get straight)

15:52:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: Ontobroker has some sort of implementation of BLD

15:53:34 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Change Rolf above to Rolf Gruetter

15:54:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Alexander Riazanov working on an implementation that converts BLD to TPTP.

15:54:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Harold: He has been on vacation; but I'll try to talk to him about that.

15:55:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Harold: There needs to be some web page on implementation of Ontobroker

15:55:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: Or better yet, send in an implementation report, as my wiki page specifies.

15:55:54 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: Doing that is very quick.

15:56:32 [johnhall]

zakim, unmute me

15:56:32 [Zakim]

johnhall should no longer be muted

15:56:58 [johnhall]

zakim, mute me

15:56:58 [Zakim]

johnhall should now be muted

15:57:13 [johnhall]

zakim, unmute me

15:57:13 [Zakim]

johnhall should no longer be muted

15:57:23 [johnhall]

zakim, mute me

15:57:23 [Zakim]

johnhall should now be muted

15:58:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: currently the public information about OntoBroker's implementation is inconsistent. ontoprise web page says there's a rif implementation and links to OntoBroker web page, but OntoBroker's web page says nothing.

15:59:12 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: What about Tom Gordon. Is he an implementor?

15:59:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Harold: I don't think he's an implementor. He has a systme LKIF, which is for legal knowledge.

15:59:56 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Harold: I don't believe he will implement RIF: he has more of a theoretical interest in whether one can represent legal knowledge in RIF.

16:01:28 [sandro]

Chime

16:01:35 [sandro]

Chimezie Ogbuji

16:02:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Discussion also on Adreas Abecker's comments and Chimezie Ogbuji's comments.

16:02:35 [ChrisW]

Nick Bassiliades

16:03:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Harold: Nick Bassiliades has been following RIF; does defeasible rules; unclear as to whether he'll actually do an implementation of RIF.

16:06:01 [sandro]

CR dreadline Oct 23rd, friday before the conferences....

16:06:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: Let's make deadline for implementations October 23, so people will be able to announce it before the rules conferences.

16:07:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: We'll revisit this topic at each telecon.

16:07:40 [ChrisW]

zakim, take up item 8

16:07:40 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]

16:07:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: will restart work on RIF XML soon.

16:08:32 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Axel had made an all built-ins test case

16:09:23 [josb]

q?

16:09:26 [josb]

q+

16:10:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: And that test case seems to include all built-ins

16:10:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Stella: I think it would be better to split it up somehow.

16:10:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Perhaps by data-type?

16:11:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: There are definitely some typos, like "listeral" instead of "literal"

16:11:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Stella: Perhaps organize it by string predicates, number predicates, etc?

16:12:11 [josb]

q-

16:12:47 [josb]

(I wanted to say exactly what Chris just said)

16:12:48 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: what's the problem with it being so big?

16:12:59 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Stella: If it fails, it's hard to figure out why.

16:13:59 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Stella: can we split it by positive guards, negative guards, etc?

16:14:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Sandro: We can group it by the things people are most likely to implement

16:14:48 [ChrisW]

action: Stella to refactor All Builtins testcase

16:14:48 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-907 - Refactor All Builtins testcase [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-09-08].

16:14:50 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Stella: I can refactor the all built-ins case

16:16:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Stella: There are all sorts of issues still to be dealt with, with respect to the test cases.

16:17:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Stella: Especially with all the changes in the documents, the specifications, etc.

16:17:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Stella: We need more than 15 minutes to go through this.

16:17:43 [StellaMitchell]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0026.html

16:17:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: Let's make this a priority for the next telecon, since the set of test cases will be very important to the implementors.

16:19:22 [sandro]

RRSAgent, make minutes

16:19:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html sandro

16:20:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: What do we do with unapproved test cases? Require changes? Drop them?

16:20:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: We do need an Assert/Retract case

16:20:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: We need an Assert /Retract case that is different from a Modify.

16:20:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: I don't have a case in mind, but it probably should be a negative case; that you can't assert something about an object that you've retracted.

16:22:44 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: I had a discussion with Adrian about this; he initially didn't agree ;then we had a discussion, including ChangKe and Gary, who agreed with me; but Adrian has not replied, and therefore there has been no conclusion.

16:22:57 [ChrisW]

action: Christian to fix/update AssertRetract test case

16:22:57 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-908 - Fix/update AssertRetract test case [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-08].

16:23:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: I need to get a consensus on this, and then either modify the test case myself, or get someone to do it.

16:23:40 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: I think the assert test case is fine.

16:24:12 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: However, there is no XML for it.

16:24:21 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: do we have anything to generate XML for PRD?

16:24:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]

csma: Not yet.

16:24:55 [StellaMitchell]

jacc

16:25:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Stella: can the XML be generated automatically using a tool like jacc?

16:26:33 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: What about the other PRD test cases? Won't this be a problem for all of them?

16:26:49 [ChrisW]

action: Christian to check into XML syntax for PRD test cases

16:26:49 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-909 - Check into XML syntax for PRD test cases [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-08].

16:28:17 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Chris: 2 remaining open issues in Working Group:

16:28:52 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: close issue-37 as it is addressed by the draft note on RIF combination with XML Data

16:29:15 [StellaMitchell]

+1

16:29:16 [ChrisW]

+1

16:29:19 [johnhall]

+1

16:29:20 [csma]

+1

16:29:22 [sandro]

+1

16:29:23 [josb]

+1

16:29:24 [mdean]

+1

16:29:30 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: close issue-37 as it is addressed by the draft note on RIF combination with XML Data

16:29:42 [ChrisW]

PROPOSED: close issue-38 as it is addressed by the draft note on RIF combination with XML Data

16:29:48 [ChrisW]

+1

16:29:49 [csma]

+1

16:29:51 [sandro]

+1

16:29:53 [mdean]

+1

16:29:53 [johnhall]

+1

16:29:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]

+1

16:29:58 [josb]

+1

16:30:01 [ChrisW]

RESOLVED: close issue-38 as it is addressed by the draft note on RIF combination with XML Data

16:30:01 [StellaMitchell]

+1

16:30:11 [ChrisW]

NEXT MEETING IN TWO WEEKS!

16:30:26 [Zakim]

-Stella_Mitchell

16:30:26 [ChrisW]

zakim, list attendees

16:30:27 [Zakim]

-josb

16:30:28 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, johnhall, csma, Mike_Dean

16:30:31 [Zakim]

-Mike_Dean

16:30:40 [Zakim]

-johnhall

16:30:49 [ChrisW]

Regrets: MichaelKifer

16:30:58 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:30:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html ChrisW

16:31:38 [ChrisW]

zakim, list attendees

16:31:38 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, johnhall, csma, Mike_Dean

16:32:11 [Zakim]

-Leora_Morgenstern

16:32:12 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the phone?

16:32:12 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, csma

16:32:25 [ChrisW]

zakim, drop Harold

16:32:25 [Zakim]

Harold is being disconnected

16:32:27 [Zakim]

-Harold

16:40:34 [Zakim]

-ChrisW

16:40:35 [Zakim]

-Sandro

16:40:35 [Zakim]

-csma

16:40:35 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended

16:40:36 [Zakim]

Attendees were Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, johnhall, csma, Mike_Dean