14:46:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:46:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-irc
14:47:04 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:47:04 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
14:47:09 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:47:19 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 1-Sept-09
14:47:25 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0037.html
14:47:33 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:47:33 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:47:39 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:47:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:47:57 <ChrisW> agenda+ admin
14:48:01 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:48:06 <ChrisW> agenda+ Action Review
14:48:12 <ChrisW> agenda+ Exit Criteria
14:48:21 <ChrisW> agenda+ Publications
14:48:31 <ChrisW> agenda+ Implementations
14:48:38 <ChrisW> agenda+ RIF&XML
14:48:42 <ChrisW> agenda+ Test Cases
14:48:46 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:49:15 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:51:07 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
14:51:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
14:54:03 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:57:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
14:57:56 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:57:57 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:00:23 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:25 <Zakim> -[IBM]
15:00:25 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:31 <ChrisW> zakim, IBM is temporarily me
15:00:31 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:01:07 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:01:45 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:02:24 <ChrisW> Scribe: LeoraMorgenstern
15:02:55 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
15:03:14 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:03:59 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:04:01 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:01 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:05:19 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold
15:05:45 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
15:06:01 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:06:17 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:06:17 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:07:54 <Zakim> + +39.047.101.aaaa
15:09:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro, chris: OWL, like RIF, relies on XSD 1.1., and that is still in candidate recommendation.
15:10:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: prognosis for XML schema datatypes is not promising.
15:11:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: OWL will have an appendix referring to XML schema datatypes.
15:11:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: and RIF can do something similar.
15:11:47 <ChrisW> q?
15:11:51 <ChrisW> next item
15:11:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> Nothing else in liaison.
15:11:54 <sandro> action: sandro to make sure if OWL does a normative appendix for XSD 1.1, that it's phrased in a way that makes it also work for RIF.
15:11:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-903 - Make sure if OWL does a normative appendix for XSD 1.1, that it's phrased in a way that makes it also work for RIF. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-09-08].
15:12:29 <ChrisW> close action-902
15:12:29 <trackbot> ACTION-902 Look at message from Nick B. and check FLD schema closed
15:13:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> close action-898
15:13:29 <trackbot> ACTION-898 Answer faq 3.9 closed
15:15:41 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:15:41 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Publications" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:15:53 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:15:53 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
15:15:54 <Zakim> 5. Publications [from ChrisW]
15:15:54 <Zakim> 6. Implementations [from ChrisW]
15:15:56 <Zakim> 7. RIF&XML [from ChrisW]
15:15:57 <Zakim> 8. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:15:59 <Zakim> 9. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:17:10 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 4
15:17:10 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Exit Criteria" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:17:19 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:17:55 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Exit_Criteria
15:17:58 <Zakim> +??P0
15:18:17 <johnhall> zakim ??p0 is me
15:18:32 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:18:32 <Zakim> sorry, johnhall, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:18:40 <johnhall> P0
15:19:31 <johnhall> zakim P0 is me
15:20:11 <johnhall> Thanks Jos
15:20:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:20:44 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:20:44 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:21:14 <sandro> q+
15:21:20 <ChrisW> ack sandro
15:21:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: The exit criteria for RIF are listed at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Exit_Criteria
15:22:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: I am concerned that Chris's revision to my proposal --- namely, reducing  the requirement from implementing a dialect of FLD to merely specifying the dialect --- is putting the bar too low.
15:23:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: I don't think it's too high a burden to require an implementation.
15:23:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: I think it's an unnecessary burden.
15:24:20 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Regarding Sandro's point that someone can just flip through FLD and figure out how to have some sort of (trivial?) instantiation:  Someone can also just say that they have an implementation.
15:24:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Shouldn't they at least have to show that they can read and write XML?
15:25:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Implementation tests the dialect, not the implementation.
15:25:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> oh, scratch that: It should be:
15:25:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Implementation tests the dialect, not FLD.
15:25:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: I won't object; just wanted to make the point.
15:26:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: Should we also require a syntax and semantics for the dialect specification?
15:27:20 <ChrisW> q?
15:27:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris thereupon made that change to the Exit Criteria.
15:28:38 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=Exit_Criteria&oldid=10799 as RIF CR Exit criteria
15:29:04 <josb> +1
15:29:05 <StellaMitchell> +1
15:29:06 <Harold> +1
15:29:07 <ChrisW> +1
15:29:07 <sandro> +1
15:29:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> +1
15:29:12 <johnhall> +1
15:29:20 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the call?
15:29:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, josb, johnhall (muted)
15:29:44 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=Exit_Criteria&oldid=10799 as RIF CR Exit criteria
15:29:53 <ChrisW> rrsagent, ptr?
15:29:53 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'ptr'
15:30:02 <ChrisW> zakim, ptr?
15:30:02 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisW.
15:30:06 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:30:06 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-irc#T15-30-06
15:30:34 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 5
15:30:35 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Publications" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:31:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Editors need to make changes to their Last Call documents: BLD, PRD, DTB, SWC, FLD
15:32:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Needs to be done by next week's meeting.
15:32:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: (above) also Core
15:33:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Assignments: Jos, SWC; Chris, DTB; Christian, PRD; Harold, BLD, FLD, Core.
15:33:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Even if no changes have been made, note that there have been no changes since Last Call draft.
15:35:19 <sandro> target publication date: Setp 17
15:35:37 <sandro> try to approve WD pubs of Test and UCR on Sept 15.
15:36:29 <ChrisW> q?
15:36:39 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our Last Call drafts (Core, BLD, PRD, DTB, SWC, and FLD) are ready to be published as Candidate Recommendations
15:36:48 <ChrisW> +1
15:36:55 <sandro> +1 (W3C)
15:36:56 <ChrisW> (IBM)
15:36:59 <Harold> +1 (NRC)
15:37:00 <josb> +1 (FUB)
15:37:01 <johnhall> +1 (OMG)
15:37:12 <StellaMitchell> +1 (self)
15:37:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> +1 (self)
15:37:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: Our Last Call drafts (Core, BLD, PRD, DTB, SWC, and FLD) are ready to be published as Candidate Recommendations
15:39:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Note that the statement of no changes or changes to last call drafts is CRITICAL PATH, and therefore should be done today or tomorrow.
15:40:00 <sandro> "Change since the 3 July draft...."   or "Changes since the Second Last Call draft of 3 July..."
15:40:00 <josb> tomorrow is fine for SWC changes statement
15:40:11 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 6
15:40:11 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Implementations" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:40:15 <sandro> rrsagent, pointer?
15:40:15 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-irc#T15-40-15
15:40:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Since we have moved last call documents to candidate recommendation, we are now in the call for implementations period.
15:41:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: We had originally talked about a two-month period for implementations.
15:41:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: To get out of CR, we need implementations.
15:41:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Yes, those are in the exit criteria.
15:41:33 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:41:35 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/How_to_Submit_an_Implementation_Report
15:41:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: we want to point people to the above wiki page.
15:42:09 <Zakim> +??P6
15:42:28 <sandro> zakim, ??P6 is csma
15:42:28 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:42:36 <csma> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:42:36 <Zakim> I already had ??P6 as csma, csma
15:42:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Now is the time to follow up with people who indicated in the comments that they would be interested in providing an implementation.
15:43:15 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:43:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, josb, johnhall (muted), csma
15:43:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: We need to get commitments from these people that they will do this in this period.
15:44:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Let's begin by making a list of people who will do implementations.
15:44:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: ILOG is working on an implementation. A month ago, we had a first prototype running, so we probably have more going on now.
15:45:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro: I don't know if I'll get one done.
15:45:30 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:45:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Someone in the XML group at IBM made a RIF-based rule storage system. Really a demo of XML X-query technology, but they did take some rules and translated them to RIF, and stored them in RIF-XML, and queried them.
15:45:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: question: does that count as a RIF implementation?
15:46:07 <ChrisW> action: try to dig up XML RIF store
15:46:07 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - try
15:46:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Mike Dean has an implementation.
15:46:21 <ChrisW> action: Chris to try to dig up XML RIF store
15:46:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-904 - Try to dig up XML RIF store [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-08].
15:46:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> mdean: RIF implementation is in progress.
15:46:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Silk (??)  will be an implementation of BLD.
15:48:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Gary mentioned he was doing something, but I don't know the status of it now.
15:48:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: will send Gary a message, asking for status.
15:48:20 <ChrisW> action: Christian to ask Gary about status of implementation
15:48:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-905 - Ask Gary about status of implementation [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-08].
15:49:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I think Adrian is working with tipco on an implementation of PRD.
15:49:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/tipco/tibco
15:50:28 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_Working_Group
15:51:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: maybe we should have a RIF Dev  mailing list, similar to OWL dev?
15:51:25 <sandro> action: sandro request creation of public-rif-dev
15:51:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-906 - Request creation of public-rif-dev [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-09-08].
15:52:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Rolf someone or other said something about wanting disjunction in rule heads (look up and get straight)
15:52:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Ontobroker has some sort of implementation of BLD
15:53:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> Change Rolf above to Rolf Gruetter
15:54:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Alexander Riazanov working on an implementation that converts BLD to TPTP.
15:54:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: He has been on vacation; but I'll try to talk to him about that.
15:55:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: There needs to be some web page on implementation of Ontobroker
15:55:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Or better yet, send in an implementation report, as my wiki page specifies.
15:55:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Doing that is very quick.
15:56:32 <johnhall> zakim, unmute me
15:56:32 <Zakim> johnhall should no longer be muted
15:56:58 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:56:58 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:57:13 <johnhall> zakim, unmute me
15:57:13 <Zakim> johnhall should no longer be muted
15:57:23 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
15:57:23 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
15:58:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: currently the public information about OntoBroker's implementation is inconsistent. ontoprise web page says there's a rif implementation and links to OntoBroker web page, but OntoBroker's web page says nothing.
15:59:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: What about Tom Gordon. Is he an implementor?
15:59:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: I don't think he's an implementor. He has a systme LKIF, which is for legal knowledge.
15:59:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: I don't believe he will implement RIF: he has more of a theoretical interest in whether one can represent  legal knowledge in RIF.
16:01:28 <sandro> Chime
16:01:35 <sandro> Chimezie Ogbuji
16:02:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> Discussion also on Adreas Abecker's comments and Chimezie Ogbuji's comments.
16:02:35 <ChrisW> Nick Bassiliades
16:03:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: Nick Bassiliades has been following RIF; does defeasible rules; unclear as to whether he'll actually do an implementation of RIF.
16:06:01 <sandro> CR dreadline Oct 23rd, friday before the conferences....
16:06:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Let's make deadline for implementations October 23, so people will be able to announce it before the rules conferences.
16:07:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: We'll revisit this topic at each telecon.
16:07:40 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 8
16:07:40 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:07:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: will restart work on RIF XML soon.
16:08:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Axel had made an all built-ins test case
16:09:23 <josb> q?
16:09:26 <josb> q+
16:10:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: And that test case seems to include all built-ins
16:10:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella: I think it would be better to split it up somehow.
16:10:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Perhaps by data-type?
16:11:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: There are definitely some typos, like "listeral" instead of "literal"
16:11:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella: Perhaps organize it by string predicates, number predicates, etc?
16:12:11 <josb> q-
16:12:47 <josb> (I wanted to say exactly what Chris just said)
16:12:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: what's the problem with it being so big?
16:12:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella: If it fails, it's hard to figure out why.
16:13:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella: can we split it by positive guards, negative guards, etc?
16:14:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: We can group it by the things people are most likely to implement
16:14:48 <ChrisW> action: Stella to refactor All Builtins testcase
16:14:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-907 - Refactor All Builtins testcase [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-09-08].
16:14:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella: I can refactor the all built-ins case
16:16:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella: There are all sorts of issues still to be dealt with, with respect to the test cases.
16:17:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella: Especially with all the changes in the documents, the specifications, etc.
16:17:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella: We need more than 15 minutes to go through this.
16:17:43 <StellaMitchell> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0026.html
16:17:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Let's make this a priority for the next telecon, since the set of test cases will be very important to the implementors.
16:19:22 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:19:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:20:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: What do we do with unapproved test cases? Require changes? Drop them?
16:20:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: We do need an Assert/Retract case
16:20:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We need an Assert /Retract case that is different from a Modify.
16:20:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I don't have a case in mind, but it probably should be a negative case; that you can't assert something about an object that you've retracted.
16:22:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I had a discussion with Adrian about this; he initially didn't agree ;then we had a discussion, including ChangKe and Gary, who agreed with me; but Adrian has not replied, and therefore there has been no conclusion.
16:22:57 <ChrisW> action: Christian to fix/update AssertRetract test case
16:22:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-908 - Fix/update AssertRetract test case [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-08].
16:23:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I need to get a consensus on this, and then either modify the test case myself, or get someone to do it.
16:23:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I think the assert test case is fine.
16:24:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: However, there is no XML for it.
16:24:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: do we have anything to generate XML for PRD?
16:24:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Not yet.
16:24:55 <StellaMitchell> jacc
16:25:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> Stella: can the XML be generated automatically using a tool like jacc?
16:26:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: What about the other PRD test cases? Won't this be a problem for all of them?
16:26:49 <ChrisW> action: Christian to check into XML syntax for PRD test cases
16:26:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-909 - Check into XML syntax for PRD test cases [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-08].
16:28:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: 2 remaining open issues in Working Group: 
16:28:52 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: close issue-37 as it is addressed by the draft note on RIF combination with XML Data 
16:29:15 <StellaMitchell> +1
16:29:16 <ChrisW> +1
16:29:19 <johnhall> +1
16:29:20 <csma> +1
16:29:22 <sandro> +1
16:29:23 <josb> +1
16:29:24 <mdean> +1
16:29:30 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: close issue-37 as it is addressed by the draft note on RIF combination with XML Data 
16:29:42 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: close issue-38 as it is addressed by the draft note on RIF combination with XML Data 
16:29:48 <ChrisW> +1
16:29:49 <csma> +1
16:29:51 <sandro> +1
16:29:53 <mdean> +1
16:29:53 <johnhall> +1
16:29:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> +1
16:29:58 <josb> +1
16:30:01 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: close issue-38 as it is addressed by the draft note on RIF combination with XML Data 
16:30:01 <StellaMitchell> +1
16:30:11 <ChrisW> NEXT MEETING IN TWO WEEKS!
16:30:26 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell
16:30:26 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:30:27 <Zakim> -josb
16:30:28 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, johnhall, csma, Mike_Dean
16:30:31 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:30:40 <Zakim> -johnhall
16:30:49 <ChrisW> Regrets: MichaelKifer
16:30:58 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:31:38 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:31:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, johnhall, csma, Mike_Dean
16:32:11 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:32:12 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:32:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, csma
16:32:25 <ChrisW> zakim, drop Harold
16:32:25 <Zakim> Harold is being disconnected
16:32:27 <Zakim> -Harold
16:40:34 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:40:35 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:40:35 <Zakim> -csma
16:40:35 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:40:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, johnhall, csma, Mike_Dean