See also: IRC log
trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Date: 26 August 2009
trackbot, start swxg
<trackbot> Sorry, DKA, I don't understand 'trackbot, start swxg'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 26 August 2009
<rreck> im prolly ??P5
<danbri> i just joined
<claudio> +39.011.228.aadd is claudio
<MacTed> I'm betting the crackle is 39.011.228.aadd
<Adam> there we go
<claudio> +39.011.228.aadd is me
<rreck> i invited it
<hhalpin> 1. Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-08-26T13:00-15:00Z
<bblfish> in a cafe in Bonn
<MacTed> claudio - syntax is "aadd is me"
<hhalpin> scribe: DKA
<scribe> Scribe: Dan
<scribe> ScribeNick: DKA
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 19th August 2009 as a true record
Harry: approve minutes from last week?
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 19th August 2009 as a true record
<rreck> +1 meet again
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. Sept. 1st
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: meeting again Wed. Sept 1st.
Harry: meet next week as usual.
<bblfish> oops, won't be able to make it
<danbri> likely regrets for next week - am at drupalcon
<rreck> yeah drupalcon
<hhalpin> 2. General Organization and Task Forces
Harry: We have deliverables
coming up - and we need to talk about what we want in
... We have a strategy of key invited speakers summarizing bits of the landscape. We need to [select editors] for the documents, particularly the final report.
Harry: What do we want in final report? Yes, the landscape. What about w3c process... what barriers to the social web exist in w3c right now? [are some topics]
<rreck> summaries might be first to seem to drive usecases?
Dan: "what is the w3c work that we recommend as a follow-on to this XG"
Christine: we should think about
what the landscape is. I recommend we go back to our break-out
... [as a structure for the document]
... We didn't allow the task forces to spin off [yet]
<tinkster> For Portability task force, there seems to be enough people to actively spin the task force off.
<rreck> these sounds like good contributions Christine
<Adam> have any of the task forces had any secondary meetings?
Christine: The "matrix" should also include what's going on in other standards organizations that is relevant to this topic.
Harry: suggest we have task force meetings right after this telecon
Harry: do any suggested leaders of task forces want to kick off right after this meeting?
<tinkster> petef / joaquin are not here.
<bblfish> should there be a use case TF? or is that on a different track?
<oshani> I'd be happy to participate in privacy and context TF (but not lead)
<claudio> i guess I'm muted
I suggest the task forces should partially work on extending the use cases.
<cperey> use cases began collectively, I think the idea was that these would be used by the TFs
<bblfish> hhapin: answered use cases could be TF or it could be done collectively
<hhalpin> Still where we were :)
<claudio> zakim unmute me
<claudio> zakim unmute me
Claudio: I've been chatting with
Philipp Hoschka, and it seems that the ubiquitous web app
working group is rechartering. In principle we will put our
efforts wrt context into this working group.
... One candidate name for this new working group is "context awareness and personalization" which should be interesting to us.
... I could act as a bridge to this new working group.
Harry: That sounds good to me.
<tinkster> Maybe Context TF could be a joint TF between SWXG and UWAWG (the RDFa TF was a joint TF between XHTML and SW activities)
Harry: Should we then talk about portability and privacy after next telecon.
<cperey> Sorry, I'm not clear, Did Claudio say that the Ubiquitous web app working group will take on responsibility for context in social web?
<cperey> claudio needs to mute to eliminate crackle
<bblfish> perhaps once we have the use cases sorted then it will be a lot easier to get external standards bodies to explain what their role is
<cperey> there are invited experts in this XG who will not be able to participate in U web app working group
<rreck> I am not thrilled on dropping usecases
<danbri> got a ling to draft charter for ubi web wg?
<claudio> "The Context Awareness and Personalization Working Group will define extensible modular ontologies for personal preferences, device capabilities and environmental conditions."
Dan: we could go through our user stories and produce a mapping of context data necessary for those user stories.
Christine: social web XG should guide the CA&P (née UWA) working group - right?
Christine: are all aspects of the
web social? These are social use cases we have come up with...
Other use cases are also important...
... I'm wondering to what extent there is an overlap and how we should make sure.
<hajons> yes ,please scribe, I'm not on the phone
<hhalpin> We should get out use-cases finished as soon as possible so we can get some of the use cases to the context group
Claudio: The [ca&p] group is just beginning. Traditionally they are dealing with devices rather than people. [we] can provide context related to people.
<danbri> "In the interest of greater public involvement, it is expected that technical discussion will primarily take place in public through a number of channels, although any member has the right to keep any information or discussion to member-only channels. "
<danbri> this is good
<hhalpin> Technical Plenary in Silicon Valley
<bblfish> Claudio: in contact with context working group, they have a new charter, and we can influence their work and direction so that machines as well as humans are taken into account
DanBri: Is the work going to be public? We should feed back to them on this.
Harry: What days would we want to be there?
<hhalpin> or Thursday-Friday
<danbri> i've no current plans (~ funding) to make the trip
<hhalpin> DKA that's important Monday-Tuesday
<FabGandon> I'll be there.
Harry: Who is planning on being at TPAC?
Yes I will be there.
<claudio> Mon Tue is fine for me too
<Adam> i would like to and am attempting to finalize funding
<hajons> me too
I suggest we schedule some joint meeting time with the new CA&P group.
Harry: Mon-Tue works?
<bblfish> Mond-Tues would of course work
+1 to Mon-Tue
<FabGandon> any date is fine to me
<AlexPassant> can you provide a telecon access for those that will not attend ?
Harry: any objections to mon-tue
<Adam> any date for me
<hhalpin> ACTION: E-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - E-mail
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin e-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - E-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-09-02].
<cperey> businesses in the Silicon Valley who have Social Web interests
<cperey> at TPAC
<cperey> need to do some marketing to them to get this on their schedule as well
Dan: Can we ask for a bigger room on the 2nd day [so that we can do an open day on the 2nd day]?
<hhalpin> Internet Identiy Workshop
<hhalpin> open day the first day?
<hhalpin> So people from IIW could come over
<cperey> good idea
<hhalpin> and then it would be great on Wed or Thursday over to their space.
<hhalpin> at the Computer History Museum.
<bblfish> there is also Apache Conf in the Bay area at the same time http://www.us.apachecon.com/c/acus2009/
<cperey> I would like to do the outreach with the community
<bblfish> If I go, I also would like to meet businesses :-)
Harry: who could make contacts to
companies in silicon valley?
... and would people be OK with open day on the first day?
Harry: I'd like to get a rough draft by TPAC.
Harry: We may have too many user stories? We need "champions" who can potentially rewrite them and maybe combine with other use cases...
Harry: If everyone could fill that out [before next week's call] that would be great.
<rreck> +1 cperey
<danbri> can we avoid using "friend" as a verb in these writeups?
Chrirsine: there are a lot of user stories in the category of "how to friend" - I'd like to suggest that we [consolidate] these use cases that have to do with creating a link between user A and user B.
<danbri> yeah, "create a link" ...
<rreck> yeah friend is overloaded
<tinkster> +1 cperey, +1 danbri
<rreck> link is overloaded too
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] tinkster to add user story along lines of... if you enable import of contacts from other sites, then it lowers the barrier to entry for new people signing up at your site, hence get more users, hence get more advertising revenue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<rreck> pissing meaning drinking match
[pissing match ensues]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] hhalpin to write up the social network data exchange story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
<MacTed> "connecting 2 profiles" local-local, local-remote....
<rreck> link is even more overloaded than friend
<Adam> associations? creating associations which could be different types of associations between people?
<cperey> good words
<rreck> yeah associations
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] rreck to write up use case based on shill case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<danbri> i'll take an action to put some structure in there --- the biggest distinction you see in social web sites is symmetric vs asymmetric
<danbri> latter being "follows" ... former being confirmed
<hhalpin> digital identiy
<hhalpin> which could be anoymous
<hhalpin> could be multiple
<Adam> true dan, we in boeing are only doing symmetric right now
<hhalpin> create links
<hhalpin> move date
<hhalpin> then there was questions provenance of data.
<rreck> i think there is a larger metadata issue
<hhalpin> (there about 3 different variations on how to remove data)
Harry: 3 different variations of "take down"
<cperey> how do you prevent data from moving
<hhalpin> provenance to distributed access
<bblfish> the advantage of small use cases are they that are easy to understand and read. I would prefer putting them together/categorising them somehow
<hhalpin> types of group access
My phone chose this moment to reboot.
So I'm not on the call anymore -- can someone else scribe?
<rreck> i think provenance is a just a type of metadata
<cperey> logical build up is good +1
<rreck> +1 logical progression
<hhalpin> bblfish: small use-cases are easy to read
<danbri> (background noise)
<rreck> +1 telecon usecase
<Adam> it could provide an opportunity to get everyone on the same page ?
<bblfish> yes, would be good telecon on the use cases
<rreck> maybe another usecase telecon
<rreck> any time
<hhalpin> +1 use-cases now?
<bblfish> yes lets get started now, we can continue next week
<danbri> and webfinger if there's a couple mins left before the end
<hhalpin> Drag and Drop
<hhalpin> Associating information about a person, a group, a company for it to be consumed by some program - be it a thick client or browser based - should be as Associating information about a person, a group, a company for it to be consumed by some program - be it a thick client or browser based - should be as easy as dragging the page about that person or group onto the program. See here for complete description.easy as dragging the page about that person or group
<hhalpin> onto the program. See here for complete description.
<hhalpin> That's the use-cases web-page
<scribe> Scribe: Dan
<tinkster> I like drag and drop, but I don't think it's necessarily in our scope.
<scribe> ScribeNick: DKA
<hhalpin> really high-level
<rreck> i think that is a technology implementation detail, not a feature of social network
<hhalpin> so maybe that should go towards the end.
<bblfish> yes, it's high level, but it is an ease of use thing
Harry: drag and drop is a nice use case but really high level.
<hhalpin> it's technolgical detail than social networking.
<Adam> i think its an implementation choice by the provider
Henry: It's an important aspect of the Web to copy URLs and people can link on them... It's core to the Web.
<rreck> i disagree its the same thing in lynx
<cperey> but can we say that drag and drop out of scope of this group/too general/high level to be social web?
DanBri: It's a technology issue but as HTML5 guys try to figure out HTML5, having use cases that propose them and make use of them is critival.
<hajons> it doesn't say Drag and drop, it says "as easy as"
DanBri: Ajax (a nerdy technology) has been critical to the growth of the social web.
<bblfish> also: drag and drop works with non html5 browsers. html5 makes it more powerful. You can drag and drop from old browsers
<rreck> linking is the usecase not drag and drop
MacTed: dragging and dropping is a way to accomplish the task of making an association.
<Adam> i can use drag and drop for anything really ....so in our social context is drag and drop specific to one social action?
<danbri> danbri: i'd put it in a bucket alongside other UI options, eg. "people picker" ui alongside calendar pickers
<bblfish> ok, with the idea of linking and drag and drop being a subcase of it
<rreck> +1 subcase
Dan: maybe we should make the core use case making an association and then make some notes on how to achieve this (drag and drop)
<hhalpin> it seems to "Download Your Data" use-case fits well
<hhalpin> Makes links - friendships
<hhalpin> Then there's the ability to move data *about* the linked nodes, the "friends" around.
<Adam> make the "drag and drop" stuff a social UI use case
<rreck> +1 links between people and their contribution
Harry: It seems to me that that use case sits well with the download your data use case. What we're talking about is the ability to make links - friendships - whatever youw ant to tcall it and then to move information about the links around.
<hhalpin> there are both dependent on a stable digital identity that is somehow either grounded or independent of a paritcular service
<rreck> i agree with the abstraction harry is making, it just might confuse people whose heads arent in this space
Harry: both are dependent on a stable digital identity that is either grounded or independent of a particular service.
MacTed: It seems that we're bluring the lines between "what is a use case" and what needs to happen to achieve that goal.
<hhalpin> MacTed: Need to figure out the goal
<rreck> those are linking operations
<hhalpin> MacTed: Separate those from the means.
<cperey> what about controlling who sees what of my data?
<cperey> is that a different use case?
<MacTed> 1. create profile
<MacTed> 2. connect to other profiles
<danbri> HTML5 forms have some special types, eg email ... http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#states-of-the-type-attribute date and time, http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#date-and-time-state ... a "contact picker" seems a plausible addition, and something close to the drag/drop concerns here
<MacTed> 3. collect data from other existing profiles (other sites, networks, etc.)
<MacTed> 4. delete profile from old site(s)
<bblfish> we need to add that this happens in a distributed fashion :-)
<Adam> do we have the asymmetric use case danbri mentioned?
<hhalpin> So "download your data" as a correction
<cperey> what about controlling who sees what part of a user's data? where does that fit?
<rreck> isnt that metadata on the link?
<danbri> asymetric ... ie. i can follow you on twitter, without any vice-versa
<danbri> whereas other sites, the site only accepts the relationship if both parties acknowledge/verify it
?: You can follow on twitter without any vice-versa.
<rreck> attributes on the linking IMHO
<bblfish> well follow is asymetric linking
<hhalpin> "follow use" case?
<MacTed> "follow" as in "reads blog"
<rreck> i need it right now in a site im building
<bblfish> so I say I know X, but X does not confirm
<rreck> i believe, endorse, recommend someone but that doesnt mean they reciprocate
<tinkster> "follow" = slightly more general than "reads blog" - I think we're using it here to indicate any contact linking systems which are asymmetric.
<danbri> social media sites (object centred stuff) tend towards asymmetric ("bookmarking people to track their photos"), contacts/dating sites tend towards symmetric (ie. verified real interpersonal links)
Harry: I was thinking that the CRUD and Drag&Drop are high level functionalities that come out of implementing those 4 lower-level funcionalities.
<tinkster> I'm on the call too.
<danbri> tinkster, are you on the call?
<hhalpin> So I'm proposing to Web Finger
<rreck> messages from God are generally more discrete
<hhalpin> ACTION: MacTed look at first few use-cases and see if he can figure out the base-line use-cases which implement the higher-level functionality currently installed. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - MacTed
<rreck> if he populated his profile
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri and karl to contact Evan of identi.ca over OpenMicroblogging and W3C. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Renato and DanBri and hhalpin to schedule DataPortability.org/XMPP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action09]
<bblfish> yes, problem with OpenId is that the user has to enter a URL to identify himself. But with foaf+ssl you don't have to, nor do you have to enter a password. So I have a feeling that foaf+ssl resolves that openid problem.
<MacTed> hhalpin - I log in to the wiki as tthibodeau ... is that what you need?
<hhalpin> danbri: has found that users did not understand that something like a document looks could be there.
<tinkster> let me figure out how to unmute
<rreck> yes i heard oyu
<bblfish> yes, was audible
<hhalpin> danbri: however, making it more like an e-mail address (user@machine) would work.
<hhalpin> danbri: it appears that many social web businesses are interested in this.
<hhalpin> tinkster: fingerpoint is a semantic web alternative to webfinger
<danbri> re google deployment, see http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2009-August/009762.html from Bradfitz "If we serve the information as HTML/XFN/hCard, I'm happy serving it all as RDF/FOAF too. More machine-readable data, the better."
<hhalpin> tinkster: that has the same deployment.
<bblfish> so I am wondering if the drag and drop of a home page does not solve this problem
<bblfish> (the fingerXXX problem)
<hhalpin> tinker: from the user's standpoint, but with a RDF-based infrastructure.
<hhalpin> danbri: toby, do you think your system would require that sparl endpoints be set-up?
<hhalpin> tinkster: we just use a static turtle file
<bblfish> ah interesting.
<hhalpin> tinkster: and then point to sparql.org, a 3-rd party server, so this would work on small sites.
<rreck> but i thought the question was about big sites
<tinkster> http://fingerpoint.tobyinkster.co.uk/ - very small fingerpoint setup piggybacking onto sparql.org. You can finger email@example.com
<tinkster> ("somebody" is not a placeholder there.)
<danbri> but does sparql engine have to be in the loop somewhere?
<tinkster> rreck: bigger sites can have their own sparql installation.
<rreck> thanks all
<tinkster> and smaller sites can piggyback off open sparql endpoints, such as sparql.org.
<bblfish> tinkster: so you kind of choose your favorite sparql endpoint
<tinkster> danbri: right now, yes - this greatly simplifies the work of the client. theoretically an alternative path of just providing static data could be followed though.
<tinkster> that would mean though that the client needs to be able to parse various RDF installations, etc
<bblfish> it would be kind of like friending a sparql endpoint
<hhalpin> ACTION: tthibodeau to see if first half of use-cases can be fit under following scheme: 1. create profile 2. connect to other profiles and 3 collect data from existing profiles and 4. delete profile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - See if first half of use-cases can be fit under following scheme: 1. create profile 2. connect to other profiles and 3 collect data from existing profiles and 4. delete profile [on Ted Thibodeau - due 2009-09-02].
<hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting