IRC log of swxg on 2009-08-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:01:00 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #swxg
13:01:00 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc
13:01:35 [oshani]: oshani has joined #swxg
13:01:38 [DKA]: DKA has joined #swxg
13:01:51 [MacTed]: MacTed has joined #swxg
13:02:14 [DKA]: zakim, who's here?
13:02:14 [Zakim]: sorry, DKA, I don't know what conference this is
13:02:15 [Zakim]: On IRC I see MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, trackbot, matt
13:02:30 [DKA]: trackbot, start meeting
13:02:32 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
13:02:34 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 7994
13:02:34 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()9:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
13:02:35 [trackbot]: Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
13:02:35 [trackbot]: Date: 26 August 2009
13:02:43 [cperey]: cperey has joined #SWXG
13:02:54 [DKA]: zakim, who's here?
13:02:54 [Zakim]: INC_SWXG()9:00AM has not yet started, DKA
13:02:55 [claudio]: claudio has joined #swxg
13:02:56 [Zakim]: On IRC I see cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, trackbot, matt
13:03:18 [DKA]: trackbot, start swxg
13:03:18 [trackbot]: Sorry, DKA, I don't understand 'trackbot, start swxg'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
13:03:25 [DKA]: trackbot, start meeting
13:03:28 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
13:03:30 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 7994
13:03:30 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()9:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
13:03:31 [trackbot]: Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
13:03:31 [trackbot]: Date: 26 August 2009
13:03:43 [rreck]: zakim, who is talking?
13:03:43 [Zakim]: sorry, rreck, I don't know what conference this is
13:03:44 [DKA]: zakim, who's here?
13:03:45 [Zakim]: INC_SWXG()9:00AM has not yet started, DKA
13:03:46 [Zakim]: On IRC I see claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, trackbot, matt
13:03:48 [hajons]: hajons has joined #swxg
13:03:52 [DKA]: zakim, start
13:03:52 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'start', DKA
13:03:55 [DKA]: ugh
13:04:04 [rreck]: zakim, become more robust
13:04:04 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'become more robust', rreck
13:04:15 [hhalpin]: Zakim, learn english :)
13:04:15 [Zakim]: I'm glad that smiley is there, hhalpin
13:04:16 [milstan]: milstan has joined #swxg
13:04:25 [Adam]: zakim, mute me
13:04:25 [Zakim]: sorry, Adam, I don't know what conference this is
13:04:32 [MacTed]: Zakim, this is 7994
13:04:32 [Zakim]: ok, MacTed; that matches INC_SWXG()9:00AM
13:04:33 [Zakim]: +tinkster
13:04:46 [Zakim]: +??P13
13:04:47 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's here?
13:04:48 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, ??P5, +39.011.228.aadd, +1.510.931.aaee, MIT531, OpenLink_Software, cperey, tinkster, ??P13
13:04:51 [Zakim]: On IRC I see milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl,
13:04:53 [Zakim]: ... trackbot, matt
13:05:00 [MacTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed
13:05:00 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
13:05:05 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
13:05:05 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
13:05:10 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's noisy?
13:05:10 [rreck]: im prolly ??P5
13:05:11 [danbri]: i just joined
13:05:21 [Zakim]: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MIT531 (34%), ??P5 (9%), +39.011.228.aadd (66%)
13:05:26 [Adam]: zakim, mute me
13:05:26 [Zakim]: adam should now be muted
13:05:46 [danbri]: zakim, mute danbri
13:05:46 [Zakim]: danbri should now be muted
13:05:57 [claudio]: +39.011.228.aadd is claudio
13:06:00 [DKA]: zakim, mute ??p5
13:06:00 [Zakim]: ??P5 should now be muted
13:06:04 [MacTed]: I"m betting the crackle is 39.011.228.aadd
13:06:10 [Zakim]: +FabGandon
13:06:14 [DKA]: zakim, ??p5 is DKA
13:06:14 [Zakim]: +DKA; got it
13:06:14 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute aadd
13:06:15 [Zakim]: +39.011.228.aadd should now be muted
13:06:15 [Zakim]: +??P15
13:06:15 [rreck]: zakim, ??p5 is me
13:06:16 [Zakim]: I already had ??P5 as DKA, rreck
13:06:18 [DKA]: zakim, unmute DKA
13:06:18 [Zakim]: DKA should no longer be muted
13:06:18 [MacTed]: score!
13:06:19 [rreck]: oops
13:06:21 [Adam]: there we go
13:06:25 [matt]: matt has left #swxg
13:06:36 [hhalpin]: Zakim, ??P15 is hhalpin
13:06:36 [Zakim]: +hhalpin; got it
13:06:36 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute me
13:06:37 [Zakim]: MacTed should no longer be muted
13:06:42 [Adam]: zakim, unmute me
13:06:42 [Zakim]: adam should no longer be muted
13:06:47 [DKA]: zakim, who's here?
13:06:47 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA, +39.011.228.aadd (muted), +1.510.931.aaee, oshani (muted), MacTed, cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin
13:06:50 [Zakim]: On IRC I see milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl,
13:06:52 [tinkster]: no
13:06:52 [Zakim]: ... trackbot
13:06:57 [claudio]: +39.011.228.aadd is me
13:07:09 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
13:07:09 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
13:07:35 [rreck]: i invited it
13:07:36 [Zakim]: +??P17
13:07:36 [bblfish]: zakim, +1.510.931.aaee is bblfish
13:07:36 [danbri]: rrsagent, make logs public?
13:07:37 [Zakim]: +bblfish; got it
13:07:43 [danbri]: rrsagent, make logs public
13:07:44 [hhalpin]: rrsagent, make logs public
13:07:45 [AlexPassant]: Zakim, ??p17 is me
13:07:45 [Zakim]: +AlexPassant; got it
13:07:49 [hhalpin]: 1. Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-08-26T13:00-15:00Z
13:08:01 [hhalpin]: chair: hhalpin
13:08:02 [bblfish]: in a cafe in Bonn
13:08:12 [MacTed]: claudio - syntax is "aadd is me"
13:08:16 [hhalpin]: scribe: DKA
13:08:24 [DKA]: Scribe: Dan
13:08:28 [DKA]: ScribeNick: DKA
13:08:30 [MacTed]: Zakim, aadd is claudio
13:08:30 [Zakim]: +claudio; got it
13:08:30 [claudio]: thanks
13:08:35 [hhalpin]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
13:08:35 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, AlexPassant
13:08:40 [hhalpin]: Zakim, who's on irc?
13:08:40 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
13:08:55 [DKA]: zakim, mute me
13:08:55 [Zakim]: DKA should now be muted
13:08:58 [hhalpin]: PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 19th August 2009 as a true record
13:09:01 [MacTed]: Zakim, who's here?
13:09:01 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA (muted), claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, AlexPassant
13:09:01 [rreck]: +1
13:09:04 [Zakim]: On IRC I see milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl,
13:09:06 [Zakim]: ... trackbot
13:09:08 [hhalpin]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Aug/0006.html
13:09:11 [DKA]: Harry: approve minutes from last week?
13:09:23 [tinkster]: +1
13:09:26 [DKA]: [no objections]
13:09:26 [hhalpin]: RESOLVED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 19th August 2009 as a true record
13:09:27 [Adam]: +1
13:09:27 [bblfish]: +1
13:09:28 [DKA]: +1
13:09:37 [rreck]: +1 meet again
13:09:38 [bblfish]: yes
13:09:38 [hhalpin]: PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. Sept. 1st
13:09:44 [hhalpin]: RESOLVED: meeting again Wed. Sept 1st.
13:09:45 [DKA]: Harry: meet next week as usual.
13:09:52 [bblfish]: oops, won't be able to make it
13:09:57 [danbri]: likely regrets for next week - am at drupalcon
13:10:02 [DKA]: Topic: General Organization and Task Forces
13:10:09 [rreck]: yeah drupalcon
13:10:16 [hhalpin]: 2. General Organization and Task Forces
13:10:31 [hhalpin]: hhalpin has changed the topic to: Social Web XG Meeting August 19th
13:10:41 [Yuk]: Yuk has joined #swxg
13:10:46 [hhalpin]: hhalpin has changed the topic to: Social Web XG Meeting August 26th
13:11:04 [DKA]: Harry: We have deliverables coming up - and we need to talk about what we want in them.
13:11:45 [DKA]: Harry: We have a strategy of key invited speakers summarizing bits of the landscape. We need to [select editors] for the documents, particularly the final report.
13:12:09 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuestSummaries
13:12:28 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport
13:12:30 [DKA]: Harry: What do we want in final report? Yes, the landscape. What about w3c process... what barriers to the social web exist in w3c right now? [are some topics]
13:12:39 [rreck]: summaries might be first to seem to drive usecases?
13:12:40 [DKA]: q+
13:12:45 [DKA]: ack me
13:12:54 [cperey]: +q
13:13:05 [Zakim]: +??P4
13:13:33 [Zakim]: -AlexPassant
13:13:43 [hhalpin]: ack cperey
13:13:49 [melvster]: zakim, ??p4 is me
13:13:49 [Zakim]: +melvster; got it
13:13:51 [hhalpin]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
13:13:51 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, melvster
13:13:56 [Zakim]: +??P6
13:13:59 [DKA]: Dan: "what is the w3c work that we recommend as a follow-on to this XG"
13:14:04 [AlexPassant]: Zakim, ??P6 is me
13:14:04 [Zakim]: +AlexPassant; got it
13:14:11 [hhalpin]: Zakim, who's on irc?
13:14:11 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
13:14:36 [hhalpin]: Zakim, who's here?
13:14:36 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, melvster, AlexPassant
13:14:40 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Yuk, milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl,
13:14:42 [Zakim]: ... trackbot
13:14:47 [DKA]: Christine: we should think about what the landscape is. I recommend we go back to our break-out [task forces]
13:15:03 [DKA]: Christine: [as a structure for the document]
13:15:10 [karl]: zakim, call karl
13:15:10 [Zakim]: I am sorry, karl; I do not know a number for karl
13:15:27 [hhalpin]: present: Yuk, milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl
13:15:28 [DKA]: Christine: We didn't allow the task forces to spin off [yet]
13:15:33 [hhalpin]: regrets: PeterF, Mischa
13:15:42 [tinkster]: For Portability task force, there seems to be enough people to actively spin the task force off.
13:16:04 [Zakim]: +karl
13:16:07 [rreck]: these sounds like good contributions Christine
13:16:07 [Adam]: have any of the task forces had any secondary meetings?
13:16:07 [DKA]: Christine: The "matrix" should also include what's going on in other standards organizations that is relevant to this topic.
13:16:23 [DKA]: Harry: suggest we have task force meetings right after this telecon
13:16:29 [tinkster]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Privacy_TF
13:16:34 [tinkster]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Portability_Architecture_TF
13:16:40 [tinkster]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_TF
13:17:13 [DKA]: Harry: do any suggested leaders of task forces want to kick off right after this meeting?
13:17:18 [tinkster]: petef / joaquin are not here.
13:17:35 [bblfish]: should there be a use case TF? or is that on a different track?
13:17:57 [oshani]: I'd be happy to participate in privacy and context TF (but not lead)
13:18:05 [claudio]: i guess I'm muted
13:18:06 [DKA]: I suggest the task forces should partially work on extending the use cases.
13:18:15 [cperey]: use cases began collectively, I think the idea was that these would be used by the TFs
13:18:17 [bblfish]: hhapin: answered use cases could be TF or it could be done collectively
13:18:20 [hhalpin]: Still where we were :)
13:18:23 [claudio]: zakim unmute me
13:18:23 [claudio]: zakim unmute me
13:18:48 [DKA]: ack claudio
13:18:49 [hhalpin]: Claudio?
13:19:57 [hhalpin]: Zakim, list agenda
13:19:57 [Zakim]: I see nothing on the agenda
13:20:03 [DKA]: Claudio: I've been chatting with Philipp Hoschka, and it seems that the ubiquitous web app working group is rechartering. In principle we will put our efforts wrt context into this working group.
13:20:29 [DKA]: Claudio: One candidate name for this new working group is "context awareness and personalization" which should be interesting to us.
13:20:29 [hhalpin]: agenda+ General Organization and Task Forces
13:20:42 [hhalpin]: agenda+ User Stories
13:20:42 [DKA]: Claudio: I could act as a bridge to this new working group.
13:20:56 [hhalpin]: agenda+ Invited Guest Invitations
13:20:56 [DKA]: Harry: That sounds good to me.
13:21:09 [hhalpin]: agenda+ DanBri on WebFinger
13:21:17 [tinkster]: Maybe Context TF could be a joint TF between SWXG and UWAWG (the RDFa TF was a joint TF between XHTML and SW activities)
13:21:34 [DKA]: Harry: Should we then talk about portability and privacy after next telecon.
13:21:34 [cperey]: Sorry, I'm not clear, Did Claudio say that the Ubiquitous web app working group will take on responsibility for context in social web?
13:22:05 [cperey]: claudio needs to mute to eliminate crackle
13:22:11 [hhalpin]: Zakim, mute claudio
13:22:11 [Zakim]: claudio should now be muted
13:22:17 [bblfish]: perhaps once we have the use cases sorted then it will be a lot easier to get external standards bodies to explain what their role is
13:22:37 [cperey]: there are invited experts in this XG who will not be able to participate in U web app working group
13:22:48 [rreck]: I am not thrilled on dropping usecases
13:23:11 [cperey]: +q
13:23:35 [danbri]: got a ling to draft charter for ubi web wg?
13:23:38 [claudio]: "The Context Awareness and Personalization Working Group will define extensible modular ontologies for personal preferences, device capabilities and environmental conditions."
13:24:12 [hhalpin]: ack cperey
13:24:12 [DKA]: Dan: we could go through our user stories and produce a mapping of context data necessary for those user stories.
13:24:21 [hhalpin]: open agendum 1
13:24:25 [hhalpin]: open agendum 2
13:24:28 [hhalpin]: close agendum 1
13:25:04 [DKA]: Christine: social web XG should guide the CA&P (née UWA) working group - right?
13:25:36 [claudio]: +q
13:25:37 [DKA]: Christine: are all aspects of the web social? These are social use cases we have come up with... Other use cases are also important...
13:25:42 [DKA]: q?
13:26:06 [DKA]: Christine: I'm wondering to what extent there is an overlap and how we should make sure.
13:26:06 [hhalpin]: ack claudio
13:26:10 [DKA]: ack claudio
13:27:31 [hajons]: yes ,please scribe, I'm not on the phone
13:27:47 [hhalpin]: We should get out use-cases finished as soon as possible so we can get some of the use cases to the context group
13:28:00 [claudio]: http://www.w3.org/2007/uwa/wiki/New_Charter
13:28:06 [hhalpin]: Zakim, mute claudio
13:28:06 [Zakim]: claudio should now be muted
13:28:10 [DKA]: Claudio: The [ca&p] group is just beginning. Traditionally they are dealing with devices rather than people. [we] can provide context related to people.
13:28:31 [danbri]: "In the interest of greater public involvement, it is expected that technical discussion will primarily take place in public through a number of channels, although any member has the right to keep any information or discussion to member-only channels. "
13:28:33 [danbri]: this is good
13:28:41 [hhalpin]: Technical Plenary in Silicon Valley
13:28:45 [bblfish]: Claudio: in contact with context working group, they have a new charter, and we can influence their work and direction so that machines as well as humans are taken into account
13:28:47 [DKA]: DanBri: Is the work going to be public? We should feed back to them on this.
13:28:52 [DKA]: Topic: TPAC
13:28:57 [hhalpin]: Monday-Tuesday
13:29:01 [DKA]: Harry: What days would we want to be there?
13:29:02 [hhalpin]: or Thursday-Friday
13:29:22 [danbri]: i've no current plans (~ funding) to make the trip
13:29:22 [hhalpin]: DKA that's important Monday-Tuesday
13:29:39 [FabGandon]: I'll be there.
13:29:45 [DKA]: Harry: Who is planning on being at TPAC?
13:29:49 [DKA]: Yes I will be there.
13:29:50 [claudio]: Mon Tue is fine for me too
13:29:51 [Adam]: i would like to and am attempting to finalize funding
13:30:07 [hajons]: me too
13:30:18 [DKA]: I suggest we schedule some joint meeting time with the new CA&P group.
13:30:25 [DKA]: Harry: Mon-Tue works?
13:30:30 [bblfish]: Mond-Tues would of course work
13:30:32 [DKA]: +1 to Mon-Tue
13:30:35 [FabGandon]: any date is fine to me
13:30:39 [AlexPassant]: can you provide a telecon access for those that will not attend ?
13:30:41 [DKA]: Harry: any objections to mon-tue
13:30:42 [Adam]: any date for me
13:30:44 [DKA]: [none]
13:30:48 [hhalpin]: ACTION: E-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works
13:30:48 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - E-mail
13:30:58 [hhalpin]: ACTION: hhalpin e-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works
13:30:58 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-69 - E-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-09-02].
13:31:28 [cperey]: businesses in the Silicon Valley who have Social Web interests
13:31:36 [cperey]: at TPAC
13:31:57 [cperey]: need to do some marketing to them to get this on their schedule as well
13:32:13 [hhalpin]: http://iiw.idcommons.net/Main_Page
13:32:15 [DKA]: Dan: Can we ask for a bigger room on the 2nd day [so that we can do an open day on the 2nd day]?
13:32:19 [hhalpin]: Internet Identiy Workshop
13:32:45 [hhalpin]: open day the first day?
13:32:50 [hhalpin]: So people from IIW could come over
13:32:53 [cperey]: good idea
13:33:02 [hhalpin]: and then it would be great on Wed or Thursday over to their space.
13:33:07 [hhalpin]: at the Computer History Museum.
13:33:13 [bblfish]: there is also Apache Conf in the Bay area at the same time http://www.us.apachecon.com/c/acus2009/
13:33:41 [cperey]: I would like to do the outreach with the community
13:33:57 [bblfish]: If I go, I also would like to meet businesses :-)
13:33:58 [DKA]: Harry: who could make contacts to companies in silicon valley?
13:34:12 [DKA]: Harry: and would people be OK with open day on the first day?
13:34:30 [DKA]: [no objections]
13:34:34 [DKA]: +1
13:34:55 [DKA]: Topic: User Stories
13:35:00 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/
13:35:04 [DKA]: Harry: I'd like to get a rough draft by TPAC.
13:35:27 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results
13:36:11 [DKA]: Harry: We may have too many user stories? We need "champions" who can potentially rewrite them and maybe combine with other use cases...
13:36:32 [cperey]: +q
13:36:37 [DKA]: Harry: If everyone could fill that out [before next week's call] that would be great.
13:36:40 [DKA]: ack cp
13:37:10 [rreck]: +1 cperey
13:37:24 [danbri]: can we avoid using "friend" as a verb in these writeups?
13:37:30 [DKA]: Chrirsine: there are a lot of user stories in the category of "how to friend" - I'd like to suggest that we [consolidate] these use cases that have to do with creating a link between user A and user B.
13:37:33 [danbri]: yeah, "create a link" ...
13:37:38 [rreck]: yeah friend is overloaded
13:37:39 [tinkster]: +1 cperey, +1 danbri
13:37:39 [MacTed]: +1
13:37:48 [rreck]: link is overloaded too
13:38:07 [hhalpin]: [DONE] ACTION: tinkster to add user story along lines of... if you enable import of contacts from other sites, then it lowers the barrier to entry for new people signing up at your site, hence get more users, hence get more advertising revenue
13:38:07 [rreck]: pissing meaning drinking match
13:38:10 [bblfish]: contact?
13:38:17 [DKA]: [pissing match ensues]
13:38:20 [hhalpin]: [DONE] ACTION:hhalpin to write up the social network data exchange story
13:38:25 [MacTed]: "connecting 2 profiles" local-local, local-remote....
13:38:34 [rreck]: link is even more overloaded than friend
13:38:34 [Adam]: associations? creating associations which could be different types of associations between people?
13:38:43 [cperey]: good words
13:38:45 [rreck]: yeah associations
13:38:53 [hhalpin]: [DONE] ACTION: rreck to write up use case based on shill case
13:38:56 [danbri]: i'll take an action to put some structure in there --- the biggest distinction you see in social web sites is symmetric vs asymmetric
13:39:07 [danbri]: latter being "follows" ... former being confirmed
13:39:14 [hhalpin]: digital identiy
13:39:18 [hhalpin]: which could be anoymous
13:39:20 [hhalpin]: could be multiple
13:39:22 [Adam]: true dan, we in boeing are only doing symmetric right now
13:39:27 [hhalpin]: create links
13:39:33 [hhalpin]: move date
13:39:38 [hhalpin]: then there was questions provenance of data.
13:39:46 [rreck]: i think there is a larger metadata issue
13:39:58 [hhalpin]: (there about 3 different variations on how to remove data)
13:40:02 [DKA]: Harry: 3 different variations of "take down"
13:40:02 [Zakim]: -adam
13:40:05 [cperey]: how do you prevent data from moving
13:40:08 [hhalpin]: provenance to distributed access
13:40:11 [bblfish]: the advantage of small use cases are they that are easy to understand and read. I would prefer putting them together/categorising them somehow
13:40:15 [hhalpin]: types of group access
13:40:20 [DKA]: My phone chose this moment to reboot.
13:40:39 [bblfish]: +q
13:40:40 [DKA]: So I'm not on the call anymore -- can someone else scribe?
13:40:48 [DKA]: zakim, who's here?
13:40:48 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, DKA, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, melvster, AlexPassant, karl
13:40:49 [hhalpin]: ack bblfish
13:40:49 [rreck]: i think provenance is a just a type of metadata
13:40:50 [cperey]: logical build up is good +1
13:40:52 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Yuk, milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl,
13:40:55 [Zakim]: ... trackbot
13:40:57 [DKA]: zakim, DKA is Adam
13:40:57 [Zakim]: +Adam; got it
13:40:58 [rreck]: +1 logical progression
13:41:02 [DKA]: zakim, who's here?
13:41:02 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, Adam, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, melvster, AlexPassant, karl
13:41:06 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Yuk, milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl,
13:41:08 [hhalpin]: bblfish: small use-cases are easy to read
13:41:09 [Zakim]: ... trackbot
13:41:21 [danbri]: (background noise)
13:41:37 [rreck]: +1 telecon usecase
13:41:48 [Adam]: it could provide an opportunity to get everyone on the same page ?
13:41:49 [bblfish]: yes, would be good telecon on the use cases
13:41:50 [rreck]: maybe another usecase telecon
13:42:09 [rreck]: any time
13:42:10 [hhalpin]: +1 use-cases now?
13:42:16 [danbri]: +1
13:42:17 [cperey]: +1
13:42:19 [hajons]: +1
13:42:20 [oshani]: +1
13:42:24 [bblfish]: yes lets get started now, we can continue next week
13:42:29 [danbri]: and webfinger if there's a couple mins left before the end
13:42:31 [hhalpin]: Drag and Drop
13:42:36 [bblfish]: +1
13:42:38 [Zakim]: + +7.717.85.aaff
13:42:39 [danbri]: (url?)
13:42:44 [hhalpin]: Associating information about a person, a group, a company for it to be consumed by some program - be it a thick client or browser based - should be as Associating information about a person, a group, a company for it to be consumed by some program - be it a thick client or browser based - should be as easy as dragging the page about that person or group onto the program. See here for complete description.easy as dragging the page about that person or group
13:42:44 [hhalpin]: onto the program. See here for complete description.
13:42:55 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Drag_and_Drop
13:42:56 [DKA]: zakim, aaff is DKA
13:42:56 [Zakim]: +DKA; got it
13:43:01 [hhalpin]: That's the use-cases web-page
13:43:07 [DKA]: Scribe: Dan
13:43:09 [tinkster]: I like drag and drop, but I don't think it's necessarily in our scope.
13:43:10 [DKA]: ScribeNick: DKA
13:43:12 [hhalpin]: really high-level
13:43:15 [rreck]: i think that is a technology implementation detail, not a feature of social network
13:43:18 [hhalpin]: so maybe that should go towards the end.
13:43:19 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute me
13:43:19 [Zakim]: MacTed should no longer be muted
13:43:26 [bblfish]: yes, it's high level, but it is an ease of use thing
13:43:29 [DKA]: Harry: drag and drop is a nice use case but really high level.
13:43:29 [hhalpin]: it's technolgical detail than social networking.
13:43:58 [danbri]: q+
13:44:04 [hhalpin]: ack danbri
13:44:06 [Adam]: i think its an implementation choice by the provider
13:44:07 [DKA]: Henry: It's an important aspect of the Web to copy URLs and people can link on them... It's core to the Web.
13:44:14 [DKA]: q?
13:44:37 [hhalpin]: Zakim, who's making noise?
13:44:38 [rreck]: i disagree its the same thing in lynx
13:44:39 [cperey]: but can we say that drag and drop out of scope of this group/too general/high level to be social web?
13:44:47 [Zakim]: hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (9%), MacTed (14%), cperey (14%), danbri (94%), hhalpin (18%)
13:45:03 [DKA]: DanBri: It's a technology issue but as HTML5 guys try to figure out HTML5, having use cases that propose them and make use of them is critival.
13:45:21 [hajons]: it doesn't say Drag and drop, it says "as easy as"
13:45:34 [DKA]: DanBri: Ajax (a nerdy technology) has been critical to the growth of the social web.
13:45:50 [bblfish]: also: drag and drop works with non html5 browsers. html5 makes it more powerful. You can drag and drop from old browsers
13:46:08 [rreck]: linking is the usecase not drag and drop
13:46:17 [cperey]: +1
13:46:24 [DKA]: MacTed: dragging and dropping is a way to accomplish the task of making an association.
13:46:29 [Adam]: i can use drag and drop for anything really ....so in our social context is drag and drop specific to one social action?
13:46:52 [danbri]: danbri: i'd put it in a bucket alongside other UI options, eg. "people picker" ui alongside calendar pickers
13:47:02 [bblfish]: ok, with the idea of linking and drag and drop being a subcase of it
13:47:10 [rreck]: +1 subcase
13:47:32 [DKA]: Dan: maybe we should make the core use case making an association and then make some notes on how to achieve this (drag and drop)
13:47:38 [hhalpin]: it seems to "Download Your Data" use-case fits well
13:47:40 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Download_your_data
13:47:53 [hhalpin]: Makes links - friendships
13:48:06 [hhalpin]: Then there's the ability to move data *about* the linked nodes, the "friends" around.
13:48:08 [Adam]: make the "drag and drop" stuff a social UI use case
13:48:11 [rreck]: +1 links between people and their contribution
13:48:18 [DKA]: Harry: It seems to me that that use case sits well with the download your data use case. What we're talking about is the ability to make links - friendships - whatever youw ant to tcall it and then to move information about the links around.
13:48:35 [hhalpin]: there are both dependent on a stable digital identity that is somehow either grounded or independent of a paritcular service
13:48:58 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Linking_to_a_remote_friend
13:49:11 [rreck]: i agree with the abstraction harry is making, it just might confuse people whose heads arent in this space
13:49:12 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#CRUD_Operations_on_Social_Data
13:49:12 [DKA]: Harry: both are dependent on a stable digital identity that is either grounded or independent of a particular service.
13:49:40 [DKA]: MacTed: It seems that we're bluring the lines between "what is a use case" and what needs to happen to achieve that goal.
13:49:47 [Zakim]: -DKA
13:50:07 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Accepting_a_friendship_request
13:50:13 [hhalpin]: MacTed: Need to figure out the goal
13:50:29 [rreck]: those are linking operations
13:50:50 [hhalpin]: MacTed: Separate those from the means.
13:50:51 [cperey]: what about controlling who sees what of my data?
13:50:53 [Zakim]: +DKA
13:50:57 [cperey]: is that a different use case?
13:51:03 [MacTed]: 1. create profile
13:51:10 [MacTed]: 2. connect to other profiles
13:51:16 [danbri]: HTML5 forms have some special types, eg email ... http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#states-of-the-type-attribute date and time, http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#date-and-time-state ... a "contact picker" seems a plausible addition, and something close to the drag/drop concerns here
13:51:22 [MacTed]: 3. collect data from other existing profiles (other sites, networks, etc.)
13:51:29 [MacTed]: 4. delete profile from old site(s)
13:52:03 [bblfish]: we need to add that this happens in a distributed fashion :-)
13:52:15 [Adam]: do we have the asymmetric use case danbri mentioned?
13:52:22 [hhalpin]: So "download your data" as a correction
13:52:29 [cperey]: what about controlling who sees what part of a user's data? where does that fit?
13:52:43 [rreck]: isnt that metadata on the link?
13:53:06 [danbri]: asymetric ... ie. i can follow you on twitter, without any vice-versa
13:53:27 [danbri]: whereas other sites, the site only accepts the relationship if both parties acknowledge/verify it
13:53:34 [DKA]: ?: You can follow on twitter without any vice-versa.
13:53:38 [rreck]: attributes on the linking IMHO
13:53:38 [bblfish]: well follow is asymetric linking
13:53:39 [hhalpin]: "follow use" case?
13:53:49 [MacTed]: "follow" as in "reads blog"
13:53:58 [rreck]: i need it right now in a site im building
13:53:59 [bblfish]: so I say I know X, but X does not confirm
13:54:22 [rreck]: i believe, endorse, recommend someone but that doesnt mean they reciprocate
13:54:31 [tinkster]: "follow" = slightly more general than "reads blog" - I think we're using it here to indicate any contact linking systems which are asymmetric.
13:54:32 [danbri]: social media sites (object centred stuff) tend towards asymmetric ("bookmarking people to track their photos"), contacts/dating sites tend towards symmetric (ie. verified real interpersonal links)
13:54:40 [DKA]: Harry: I was thinking that the CRUD and Drag&Drop are high level functionalities that come out of implementing those 4 lower-level funcionalities.
13:54:55 [hhalpin]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Portability_and_Provenance
13:55:17 [Zakim]: -DKA
13:55:42 [tinkster]: indeed
13:55:51 [tinkster]: I'm on the call too.
13:55:52 [danbri]: tinkster, are you on the call?
13:55:55 [hhalpin]: So I'm proposing to Web Finger
13:55:56 [rreck]: messages from God are generally more discrete
13:56:36 [hhalpin]: ACTION: MacTed look at first few use-cases and see if he can figure out the base-line use-cases which implement the higher-level functionality currently installed.
13:56:36 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - MacTed
13:56:53 [rreck]: if he populated his profile
13:57:01 [hhalpin]: Zakim, next agendum
13:57:01 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Invited Guest Invitations" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:57:24 [hhalpin]: [CONTINUES] ACTION: danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets
13:57:32 [hhalpin]: [CONTINUES] ACTION: danbri and karl to contact Evan of identi.ca over OpenMicroblogging and W3C.
13:57:38 [hhalpin]: [CONTINUES] ACTION:Renato and DanBri and hhalpin to schedule DataPortability.org/XMPP
13:57:43 [hhalpin]: Zakim, next agendum
13:57:43 [Zakim]: agendum 3 was just opened, hhalpin
13:57:49 [hhalpin]: Zakim, agendum 4
13:57:49 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'agendum 4', hhalpin
13:57:58 [hhalpin]: Zakim, close agendum 3
13:57:58 [Zakim]: agendum 3, Invited Guest Invitations, closed
13:57:59 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
13:58:00 [Zakim]: 4. DanBri on WebFinger [from hhalpin]
13:58:02 [hhalpin]: Zakim, open agendum 4
13:58:02 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "DanBri on WebFinger" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:58:17 [bblfish]: yes, problem with OpenId is that the user has to enter a URL to identify himself. But with foaf+ssl you don't have to, nor do you have to enter a password. So I have a feeling that foaf+ssl resolves that openid problem.
13:58:23 [Zakim]: -AlexPassant
13:58:32 [MacTed]: hhalpin - I log in to the wiki as tthibodeau ... is that what you need?
13:58:39 [hhalpin]: danbri: has found that users did not understand that something like a document looks could be there.
13:58:47 [tinkster]: let me figure out how to unmute
13:58:52 [rreck]: yes i heard oyu
13:58:54 [bblfish]: yes, was audible
13:58:55 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute tinkster
13:58:55 [Zakim]: tinkster was not muted, MacTed
13:58:55 [danbri]: zakim, unmute tinkster
13:58:57 [Zakim]: tinkster was not muted, danbri
13:59:28 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
13:59:28 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
13:59:38 [hhalpin]: danbri: however, making it more like an e-mail address (user@machine) would work.
13:59:52 [hhalpin]: danbri: it appears that many social web businesses are interested in this.
13:59:57 [tinkster]: http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/fingerpoint/
14:00:07 [hhalpin]: tinkster: fingerpoint is a semantic web alternative to webfinger
14:00:07 [danbri]: re google deployment, see http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2009-August/009762.html from Bradfitz "If we serve the information as HTML/XFN/hCard, I'm happy serving it all as RDF/FOAF too. More machine-readable data, the better."
14:00:15 [hhalpin]: tinkster: that has the same deployment.
14:00:22 [bblfish]: so I am wondering if the drag and drop of a home page does not solve this problem
14:00:39 [bblfish]: (the fingerXXX problem)
14:00:40 [hhalpin]: tinker: from the user's standpoint, but with a RDF-based infrastructure.
14:01:18 [hhalpin]: danbri: toby, do you think your system would require that sparl endpoints be set-up?
14:01:23 [hhalpin]: tinkster: we just use a static turtle file
14:01:38 [bblfish]: ah interesting.
14:01:39 [tinkster]: zakim, mute me
14:01:39 [Zakim]: tinkster should now be muted
14:01:40 [hhalpin]: tinkster: and then point to sparql.org, a 3-rd party server, so this would work on small sites.
14:01:56 [rreck]: but i thought the question was about big sites
14:02:28 [tinkster]: http://fingerpoint.tobyinkster.co.uk/ - very small fingerpoint setup piggybacking onto sparql.org. You can finger somebody@fingerpoint.tobyinkster.co.uk
14:02:41 [tinkster]: ("somebody" is not a placeholder there.)
14:03:18 [danbri]: but does sparql engine have to be in the loop somewhere?
14:03:24 [tinkster]: rreck: bigger sites can have their own sparql installation.
14:03:25 [rreck]: thanks all
14:03:27 [Zakim]: - +1.314.683.aaaa
14:03:27 [bblfish]: bye
14:03:28 [cperey]: bye
14:03:31 [Zakim]: -tinkster
14:03:31 [melvster]: bye
14:03:32 [Zakim]: -oshani
14:03:32 [Zakim]: -cperey
14:03:33 [Adam]: bye
14:03:35 [Zakim]: -karl
14:03:36 [Zakim]: -MacTed
14:03:42 [hajons]: bye
14:03:42 [Zakim]: -melvster
14:03:43 [Zakim]: -Adam
14:03:52 [Zakim]: -claudio
14:03:56 [Zakim]: -bblfish
14:03:57 [tinkster]: and smaller sites can piggyback off open sparql endpoints, such as sparql.org.
14:04:02 [Zakim]: -danbri
14:04:22 [bblfish]: tinkster: so you kind of choose your favorite sparql endpoint
14:04:40 [tinkster]: danbri: right now, yes - this greatly simplifies the work of the client. theoretically an alternative path of just providing static data could be followed though.
14:04:48 [Zakim]: -FabGandon
14:05:03 [tinkster]: that would mean though that the client needs to be able to parse various RDF installations, etc
14:05:38 [bblfish]: it would be kind of like friending a sparql endpoint
14:05:54 [bblfish]: hmmm
14:06:14 [hhalpin]: ACTION: tthibodeau to see if first half of use-cases can be fit under following scheme: 1. create profile 2. connect to other profiles and 3 collect data from existing profiles and 4. delete profile
14:06:14 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-70 - See if first half of use-cases can be fit under following scheme: 1. create profile 2. connect to other profiles and 3 collect data from existing profiles and 4. delete profile [on Ted Thibodeau - due 2009-09-02].
14:06:27 [hhalpin]: trackbot, end meeting
14:06:27 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
14:06:27 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.314.683.aaaa, +1.510.931.aabb, FabGandon, adam, +1.510.931.aacc, +39.011.228.aadd, cperey, tinkster, MacTed, danbri, oshani, hhalpin,
14:06:28 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:06:28 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
14:06:29 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
14:06:29 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-actions.rdf :
14:06:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: E-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works [1]
14:06:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc#T13-30-48
14:06:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: hhalpin e-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works [2]
14:06:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc#T13-30-58
14:06:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: MacTed look at first few use-cases and see if he can figure out the base-line use-cases which implement the higher-level functionality currently installed. [3]
14:06:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc#T13-56-36
14:06:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: tthibodeau to see if first half of use-cases can be fit under following scheme: 1. create profile 2. connect to other profiles and 3 collect data from existing profiles and 4. delete profile [4]
14:06:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc#T14-06-14
14:06:31 [Zakim]: ... bblfish, AlexPassant, claudio, melvster, karl, +7.717.85.aaff, DKA
14:06:34 [tinkster]: bblfish: yes, kind of. The relationship is "host to endpoint" rather than "person to endpoint" though.