13:01:00 RRSAgent has joined #swxg 13:01:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc 13:01:35 oshani has joined #swxg 13:01:38 DKA has joined #swxg 13:01:51 MacTed has joined #swxg 13:02:14 zakim, who's here? 13:02:14 sorry, DKA, I don't know what conference this is 13:02:15 On IRC I see MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, trackbot, matt 13:02:30 trackbot, start meeting 13:02:32 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:02:34 Zakim, this will be 7994 13:02:34 ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()9:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago 13:02:35 Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference 13:02:35 Date: 26 August 2009 13:02:43 cperey has joined #SWXG 13:02:54 zakim, who's here? 13:02:54 INC_SWXG()9:00AM has not yet started, DKA 13:02:55 claudio has joined #swxg 13:02:56 On IRC I see cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, trackbot, matt 13:03:18 trackbot, start swxg 13:03:18 Sorry, DKA, I don't understand 'trackbot, start swxg'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 13:03:25 trackbot, start meeting 13:03:28 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:03:30 Zakim, this will be 7994 13:03:30 ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()9:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago 13:03:31 Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference 13:03:31 Date: 26 August 2009 13:03:43 zakim, who is talking? 13:03:43 sorry, rreck, I don't know what conference this is 13:03:44 zakim, who's here? 13:03:45 INC_SWXG()9:00AM has not yet started, DKA 13:03:46 On IRC I see claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, trackbot, matt 13:03:48 hajons has joined #swxg 13:03:52 zakim, start 13:03:52 I don't understand 'start', DKA 13:03:55 ugh 13:04:04 zakim, become more robust 13:04:04 I don't understand 'become more robust', rreck 13:04:15 Zakim, learn english :) 13:04:15 I'm glad that smiley is there, hhalpin 13:04:16 milstan has joined #swxg 13:04:25 zakim, mute me 13:04:25 sorry, Adam, I don't know what conference this is 13:04:32 Zakim, this is 7994 13:04:32 ok, MacTed; that matches INC_SWXG()9:00AM 13:04:33 +tinkster 13:04:46 +??P13 13:04:47 Zakim, who's here? 13:04:48 On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, ??P5, +39.011.228.aadd, +1.510.931.aaee, MIT531, OpenLink_Software, cperey, tinkster, ??P13 13:04:51 On IRC I see milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, 13:04:53 ... trackbot, matt 13:05:00 Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed 13:05:00 +MacTed; got it 13:05:05 Zakim, mute me 13:05:05 MacTed should now be muted 13:05:10 Zakim, who's noisy? 13:05:10 im prolly ??P5 13:05:11 i just joined 13:05:21 MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MIT531 (34%), ??P5 (9%), +39.011.228.aadd (66%) 13:05:26 zakim, mute me 13:05:26 adam should now be muted 13:05:46 zakim, mute danbri 13:05:46 danbri should now be muted 13:05:57 +39.011.228.aadd is claudio 13:06:00 zakim, mute ??p5 13:06:00 ??P5 should now be muted 13:06:04 I"m betting the crackle is 39.011.228.aadd 13:06:10 +FabGandon 13:06:14 zakim, ??p5 is DKA 13:06:14 +DKA; got it 13:06:14 Zakim, mute aadd 13:06:15 +39.011.228.aadd should now be muted 13:06:15 +??P15 13:06:15 zakim, ??p5 is me 13:06:16 I already had ??P5 as DKA, rreck 13:06:18 zakim, unmute DKA 13:06:18 DKA should no longer be muted 13:06:18 score! 13:06:19 oops 13:06:21 there we go 13:06:25 matt has left #swxg 13:06:36 Zakim, ??P15 is hhalpin 13:06:36 +hhalpin; got it 13:06:36 Zakim, unmute me 13:06:37 MacTed should no longer be muted 13:06:42 zakim, unmute me 13:06:42 adam should no longer be muted 13:06:47 zakim, who's here? 13:06:47 On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA, +39.011.228.aadd (muted), +1.510.931.aaee, oshani (muted), MacTed, cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin 13:06:50 On IRC I see milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, 13:06:52 no 13:06:52 ... trackbot 13:06:57 +39.011.228.aadd is me 13:07:09 Zakim, mute me 13:07:09 MacTed should now be muted 13:07:35 i invited it 13:07:36 +??P17 13:07:36 zakim, +1.510.931.aaee is bblfish 13:07:36 rrsagent, make logs public? 13:07:37 +bblfish; got it 13:07:43 rrsagent, make logs public 13:07:44 rrsagent, make logs public 13:07:45 Zakim, ??p17 is me 13:07:45 +AlexPassant; got it 13:07:49 1. Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-08-26T13:00-15:00Z 13:08:01 chair: hhalpin 13:08:02 in a cafe in Bonn 13:08:12 claudio - syntax is "aadd is me" 13:08:16 scribe: DKA 13:08:24 Scribe: Dan 13:08:28 ScribeNick: DKA 13:08:30 Zakim, aadd is claudio 13:08:30 +claudio; got it 13:08:30 thanks 13:08:35 Zakim, who's on the phone? 13:08:35 On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, AlexPassant 13:08:40 Zakim, who's on irc? 13:08:40 I don't understand your question, hhalpin. 13:08:55 zakim, mute me 13:08:55 DKA should now be muted 13:08:58 PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 19th August 2009 as a true record 13:09:01 Zakim, who's here? 13:09:01 On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA (muted), claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, AlexPassant 13:09:01 +1 13:09:04 On IRC I see milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, 13:09:06 ... trackbot 13:09:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Aug/0006.html 13:09:11 Harry: approve minutes from last week? 13:09:23 +1 13:09:26 [no objections] 13:09:26 RESOLVED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 19th August 2009 as a true record 13:09:27 +1 13:09:27 +1 13:09:28 +1 13:09:37 +1 meet again 13:09:38 yes 13:09:38 PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. Sept. 1st 13:09:44 RESOLVED: meeting again Wed. Sept 1st. 13:09:45 Harry: meet next week as usual. 13:09:52 oops, won't be able to make it 13:09:57 likely regrets for next week - am at drupalcon 13:10:02 Topic: General Organization and Task Forces 13:10:09 yeah drupalcon 13:10:16 2. General Organization and Task Forces 13:10:31 hhalpin has changed the topic to: Social Web XG Meeting August 19th 13:10:41 Yuk has joined #swxg 13:10:46 hhalpin has changed the topic to: Social Web XG Meeting August 26th 13:11:04 Harry: We have deliverables coming up - and we need to talk about what we want in them. 13:11:45 Harry: We have a strategy of key invited speakers summarizing bits of the landscape. We need to [select editors] for the documents, particularly the final report. 13:12:09 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuestSummaries 13:12:28 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport 13:12:30 Harry: What do we want in final report? Yes, the landscape. What about w3c process... what barriers to the social web exist in w3c right now? [are some topics] 13:12:39 summaries might be first to seem to drive usecases? 13:12:40 q+ 13:12:45 ack me 13:12:54 +q 13:13:05 +??P4 13:13:33 -AlexPassant 13:13:43 ack cperey 13:13:49 zakim, ??p4 is me 13:13:49 +melvster; got it 13:13:51 Zakim, who's on the phone? 13:13:51 On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, melvster 13:13:56 +??P6 13:13:59 Dan: "what is the w3c work that we recommend as a follow-on to this XG" 13:14:04 Zakim, ??P6 is me 13:14:04 +AlexPassant; got it 13:14:11 Zakim, who's on irc? 13:14:11 I don't understand your question, hhalpin. 13:14:36 Zakim, who's here? 13:14:36 On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, adam, DKA, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, melvster, AlexPassant 13:14:40 On IRC I see Yuk, milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, 13:14:42 ... trackbot 13:14:47 Christine: we should think about what the landscape is. I recommend we go back to our break-out [task forces] 13:15:03 Christine: [as a structure for the document] 13:15:10 zakim, call karl 13:15:10 I am sorry, karl; I do not know a number for karl 13:15:27 present: Yuk, milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl 13:15:28 Christine: We didn't allow the task forces to spin off [yet] 13:15:33 regrets: PeterF, Mischa 13:15:42 For Portability task force, there seems to be enough people to actively spin the task force off. 13:16:04 +karl 13:16:07 these sounds like good contributions Christine 13:16:07 have any of the task forces had any secondary meetings? 13:16:07 Christine: The "matrix" should also include what's going on in other standards organizations that is relevant to this topic. 13:16:23 Harry: suggest we have task force meetings right after this telecon 13:16:29 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Privacy_TF 13:16:34 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Portability_Architecture_TF 13:16:40 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_TF 13:17:13 Harry: do any suggested leaders of task forces want to kick off right after this meeting? 13:17:18 petef / joaquin are not here. 13:17:35 should there be a use case TF? or is that on a different track? 13:17:57 I'd be happy to participate in privacy and context TF (but not lead) 13:18:05 i guess I'm muted 13:18:06 I suggest the task forces should partially work on extending the use cases. 13:18:15 use cases began collectively, I think the idea was that these would be used by the TFs 13:18:17 hhapin: answered use cases could be TF or it could be done collectively 13:18:20 Still where we were :) 13:18:23 zakim unmute me 13:18:23 zakim unmute me 13:18:48 ack claudio 13:18:49 Claudio? 13:19:57 Zakim, list agenda 13:19:57 I see nothing on the agenda 13:20:03 Claudio: I've been chatting with Philipp Hoschka, and it seems that the ubiquitous web app working group is rechartering. In principle we will put our efforts wrt context into this working group. 13:20:29 Claudio: One candidate name for this new working group is "context awareness and personalization" which should be interesting to us. 13:20:29 agenda+ General Organization and Task Forces 13:20:42 agenda+ User Stories 13:20:42 Claudio: I could act as a bridge to this new working group. 13:20:56 agenda+ Invited Guest Invitations 13:20:56 Harry: That sounds good to me. 13:21:09 agenda+ DanBri on WebFinger 13:21:17 Maybe Context TF could be a joint TF between SWXG and UWAWG (the RDFa TF was a joint TF between XHTML and SW activities) 13:21:34 Harry: Should we then talk about portability and privacy after next telecon. 13:21:34 Sorry, I'm not clear, Did Claudio say that the Ubiquitous web app working group will take on responsibility for context in social web? 13:22:05 claudio needs to mute to eliminate crackle 13:22:11 Zakim, mute claudio 13:22:11 claudio should now be muted 13:22:17 perhaps once we have the use cases sorted then it will be a lot easier to get external standards bodies to explain what their role is 13:22:37 there are invited experts in this XG who will not be able to participate in U web app working group 13:22:48 I am not thrilled on dropping usecases 13:23:11 +q 13:23:35 got a ling to draft charter for ubi web wg? 13:23:38 "The Context Awareness and Personalization Working Group will define extensible modular ontologies for personal preferences, device capabilities and environmental conditions." 13:24:12 ack cperey 13:24:12 Dan: we could go through our user stories and produce a mapping of context data necessary for those user stories. 13:24:21 open agendum 1 13:24:25 open agendum 2 13:24:28 close agendum 1 13:25:04 Christine: social web XG should guide the CA&P (née UWA) working group - right? 13:25:36 +q 13:25:37 Christine: are all aspects of the web social? These are social use cases we have come up with... Other use cases are also important... 13:25:42 q? 13:26:06 Christine: I'm wondering to what extent there is an overlap and how we should make sure. 13:26:06 ack claudio 13:26:10 ack claudio 13:27:31 yes ,please scribe, I'm not on the phone 13:27:47 We should get out use-cases finished as soon as possible so we can get some of the use cases to the context group 13:28:00 http://www.w3.org/2007/uwa/wiki/New_Charter 13:28:06 Zakim, mute claudio 13:28:06 claudio should now be muted 13:28:10 Claudio: The [ca&p] group is just beginning. Traditionally they are dealing with devices rather than people. [we] can provide context related to people. 13:28:31 "In the interest of greater public involvement, it is expected that technical discussion will primarily take place in public through a number of channels, although any member has the right to keep any information or discussion to member-only channels. " 13:28:33 this is good 13:28:41 Technical Plenary in Silicon Valley 13:28:45 Claudio: in contact with context working group, they have a new charter, and we can influence their work and direction so that machines as well as humans are taken into account 13:28:47 DanBri: Is the work going to be public? We should feed back to them on this. 13:28:52 Topic: TPAC 13:28:57 Monday-Tuesday 13:29:01 Harry: What days would we want to be there? 13:29:02 or Thursday-Friday 13:29:22 i've no current plans (~ funding) to make the trip 13:29:22 DKA that's important Monday-Tuesday 13:29:39 I'll be there. 13:29:45 Harry: Who is planning on being at TPAC? 13:29:49 Yes I will be there. 13:29:50 Mon Tue is fine for me too 13:29:51 i would like to and am attempting to finalize funding 13:30:07 me too 13:30:18 I suggest we schedule some joint meeting time with the new CA&P group. 13:30:25 Harry: Mon-Tue works? 13:30:30 Mond-Tues would of course work 13:30:32 +1 to Mon-Tue 13:30:35 any date is fine to me 13:30:39 can you provide a telecon access for those that will not attend ? 13:30:41 Harry: any objections to mon-tue 13:30:42 any date for me 13:30:44 [none] 13:30:48 ACTION: E-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works 13:30:48 Sorry, couldn't find user - E-mail 13:30:58 ACTION: hhalpin e-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works 13:30:58 Created ACTION-69 - E-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-09-02]. 13:31:28 businesses in the Silicon Valley who have Social Web interests 13:31:36 at TPAC 13:31:57 need to do some marketing to them to get this on their schedule as well 13:32:13 http://iiw.idcommons.net/Main_Page 13:32:15 Dan: Can we ask for a bigger room on the 2nd day [so that we can do an open day on the 2nd day]? 13:32:19 Internet Identiy Workshop 13:32:45 open day the first day? 13:32:50 So people from IIW could come over 13:32:53 good idea 13:33:02 and then it would be great on Wed or Thursday over to their space. 13:33:07 at the Computer History Museum. 13:33:13 there is also Apache Conf in the Bay area at the same time http://www.us.apachecon.com/c/acus2009/ 13:33:41 I would like to do the outreach with the community 13:33:57 If I go, I also would like to meet businesses :-) 13:33:58 Harry: who could make contacts to companies in silicon valley? 13:34:12 Harry: and would people be OK with open day on the first day? 13:34:30 [no objections] 13:34:34 +1 13:34:55 Topic: User Stories 13:35:00 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/ 13:35:04 Harry: I'd like to get a rough draft by TPAC. 13:35:27 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results 13:36:11 Harry: We may have too many user stories? We need "champions" who can potentially rewrite them and maybe combine with other use cases... 13:36:32 +q 13:36:37 Harry: If everyone could fill that out [before next week's call] that would be great. 13:36:40 ack cp 13:37:10 +1 cperey 13:37:24 can we avoid using "friend" as a verb in these writeups? 13:37:30 Chrirsine: there are a lot of user stories in the category of "how to friend" - I'd like to suggest that we [consolidate] these use cases that have to do with creating a link between user A and user B. 13:37:33 yeah, "create a link" ... 13:37:38 yeah friend is overloaded 13:37:39 +1 cperey, +1 danbri 13:37:39 +1 13:37:48 link is overloaded too 13:38:07 [DONE] ACTION: tinkster to add user story along lines of... if you enable import of contacts from other sites, then it lowers the barrier to entry for new people signing up at your site, hence get more users, hence get more advertising revenue 13:38:07 pissing meaning drinking match 13:38:10 contact? 13:38:17 [pissing match ensues] 13:38:20 [DONE] ACTION:hhalpin to write up the social network data exchange story 13:38:25 "connecting 2 profiles" local-local, local-remote.... 13:38:34 link is even more overloaded than friend 13:38:34 associations? creating associations which could be different types of associations between people? 13:38:43 good words 13:38:45 yeah associations 13:38:53 [DONE] ACTION: rreck to write up use case based on shill case 13:38:56 i'll take an action to put some structure in there --- the biggest distinction you see in social web sites is symmetric vs asymmetric 13:39:07 latter being "follows" ... former being confirmed 13:39:14 digital identiy 13:39:18 which could be anoymous 13:39:20 could be multiple 13:39:22 true dan, we in boeing are only doing symmetric right now 13:39:27 create links 13:39:33 move date 13:39:38 then there was questions provenance of data. 13:39:46 i think there is a larger metadata issue 13:39:58 (there about 3 different variations on how to remove data) 13:40:02 Harry: 3 different variations of "take down" 13:40:02 -adam 13:40:05 how do you prevent data from moving 13:40:08 provenance to distributed access 13:40:11 the advantage of small use cases are they that are easy to understand and read. I would prefer putting them together/categorising them somehow 13:40:15 types of group access 13:40:20 My phone chose this moment to reboot. 13:40:39 +q 13:40:40 So I'm not on the call anymore -- can someone else scribe? 13:40:48 zakim, who's here? 13:40:48 On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, DKA, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, melvster, AlexPassant, karl 13:40:49 ack bblfish 13:40:49 i think provenance is a just a type of metadata 13:40:50 logical build up is good +1 13:40:52 On IRC I see Yuk, milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, 13:40:55 ... trackbot 13:40:57 zakim, DKA is Adam 13:40:57 +Adam; got it 13:40:58 +1 logical progression 13:41:02 zakim, who's here? 13:41:02 On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, Adam, claudio (muted), bblfish, oshani (muted), MacTed (muted), cperey, tinkster, danbri, FabGandon, hhalpin, melvster, AlexPassant, karl 13:41:06 On IRC I see Yuk, milstan, hajons, claudio, cperey, MacTed, DKA, oshani, RRSAgent, Zakim, bblfish, rreck, Adam, melvster, danbri, tinkster, FabGandon, AlexPassant, hhalpin, karl, 13:41:08 bblfish: small use-cases are easy to read 13:41:09 ... trackbot 13:41:21 (background noise) 13:41:37 +1 telecon usecase 13:41:48 it could provide an opportunity to get everyone on the same page ? 13:41:49 yes, would be good telecon on the use cases 13:41:50 maybe another usecase telecon 13:42:09 any time 13:42:10 +1 use-cases now? 13:42:16 +1 13:42:17 +1 13:42:19 +1 13:42:20 +1 13:42:24 yes lets get started now, we can continue next week 13:42:29 and webfinger if there's a couple mins left before the end 13:42:31 Drag and Drop 13:42:36 +1 13:42:38 + +7.717.85.aaff 13:42:39 (url?) 13:42:44 Associating information about a person, a group, a company for it to be consumed by some program - be it a thick client or browser based - should be as Associating information about a person, a group, a company for it to be consumed by some program - be it a thick client or browser based - should be as easy as dragging the page about that person or group onto the program. See here for complete description.easy as dragging the page about that person or group 13:42:44 onto the program. See here for complete description. 13:42:55 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Drag_and_Drop 13:42:56 zakim, aaff is DKA 13:42:56 +DKA; got it 13:43:01 That's the use-cases web-page 13:43:07 Scribe: Dan 13:43:09 I like drag and drop, but I don't think it's necessarily in our scope. 13:43:10 ScribeNick: DKA 13:43:12 really high-level 13:43:15 i think that is a technology implementation detail, not a feature of social network 13:43:18 so maybe that should go towards the end. 13:43:19 Zakim, unmute me 13:43:19 MacTed should no longer be muted 13:43:26 yes, it's high level, but it is an ease of use thing 13:43:29 Harry: drag and drop is a nice use case but really high level. 13:43:29 it's technolgical detail than social networking. 13:43:58 q+ 13:44:04 ack danbri 13:44:06 i think its an implementation choice by the provider 13:44:07 Henry: It's an important aspect of the Web to copy URLs and people can link on them... It's core to the Web. 13:44:14 q? 13:44:37 Zakim, who's making noise? 13:44:38 i disagree its the same thing in lynx 13:44:39 but can we say that drag and drop out of scope of this group/too general/high level to be social web? 13:44:47 hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (9%), MacTed (14%), cperey (14%), danbri (94%), hhalpin (18%) 13:45:03 DanBri: It's a technology issue but as HTML5 guys try to figure out HTML5, having use cases that propose them and make use of them is critival. 13:45:21 it doesn't say Drag and drop, it says "as easy as" 13:45:34 DanBri: Ajax (a nerdy technology) has been critical to the growth of the social web. 13:45:50 also: drag and drop works with non html5 browsers. html5 makes it more powerful. You can drag and drop from old browsers 13:46:08 linking is the usecase not drag and drop 13:46:17 +1 13:46:24 MacTed: dragging and dropping is a way to accomplish the task of making an association. 13:46:29 i can use drag and drop for anything really ....so in our social context is drag and drop specific to one social action? 13:46:52 danbri: i'd put it in a bucket alongside other UI options, eg. "people picker" ui alongside calendar pickers 13:47:02 ok, with the idea of linking and drag and drop being a subcase of it 13:47:10 +1 subcase 13:47:32 Dan: maybe we should make the core use case making an association and then make some notes on how to achieve this (drag and drop) 13:47:38 it seems to "Download Your Data" use-case fits well 13:47:40 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Download_your_data 13:47:53 Makes links - friendships 13:48:06 Then there's the ability to move data *about* the linked nodes, the "friends" around. 13:48:08 make the "drag and drop" stuff a social UI use case 13:48:11 +1 links between people and their contribution 13:48:18 Harry: It seems to me that that use case sits well with the download your data use case. What we're talking about is the ability to make links - friendships - whatever youw ant to tcall it and then to move information about the links around. 13:48:35 there are both dependent on a stable digital identity that is somehow either grounded or independent of a paritcular service 13:48:58 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Linking_to_a_remote_friend 13:49:11 i agree with the abstraction harry is making, it just might confuse people whose heads arent in this space 13:49:12 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#CRUD_Operations_on_Social_Data 13:49:12 Harry: both are dependent on a stable digital identity that is either grounded or independent of a particular service. 13:49:40 MacTed: It seems that we're bluring the lines between "what is a use case" and what needs to happen to achieve that goal. 13:49:47 -DKA 13:50:07 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Accepting_a_friendship_request 13:50:13 MacTed: Need to figure out the goal 13:50:29 those are linking operations 13:50:50 MacTed: Separate those from the means. 13:50:51 what about controlling who sees what of my data? 13:50:53 +DKA 13:50:57 is that a different use case? 13:51:03 1. create profile 13:51:10 2. connect to other profiles 13:51:16 HTML5 forms have some special types, eg email ... http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#states-of-the-type-attribute date and time, http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#date-and-time-state ... a "contact picker" seems a plausible addition, and something close to the drag/drop concerns here 13:51:22 3. collect data from other existing profiles (other sites, networks, etc.) 13:51:29 4. delete profile from old site(s) 13:52:03 we need to add that this happens in a distributed fashion :-) 13:52:15 do we have the asymmetric use case danbri mentioned? 13:52:22 So "download your data" as a correction 13:52:29 what about controlling who sees what part of a user's data? where does that fit? 13:52:43 isnt that metadata on the link? 13:53:06 asymetric ... ie. i can follow you on twitter, without any vice-versa 13:53:27 whereas other sites, the site only accepts the relationship if both parties acknowledge/verify it 13:53:34 ?: You can follow on twitter without any vice-versa. 13:53:38 attributes on the linking IMHO 13:53:38 well follow is asymetric linking 13:53:39 "follow use" case? 13:53:49 "follow" as in "reads blog" 13:53:58 i need it right now in a site im building 13:53:59 so I say I know X, but X does not confirm 13:54:22 i believe, endorse, recommend someone but that doesnt mean they reciprocate 13:54:31 "follow" = slightly more general than "reads blog" - I think we're using it here to indicate any contact linking systems which are asymmetric. 13:54:32 social media sites (object centred stuff) tend towards asymmetric ("bookmarking people to track their photos"), contacts/dating sites tend towards symmetric (ie. verified real interpersonal links) 13:54:40 Harry: I was thinking that the CRUD and Drag&Drop are high level functionalities that come out of implementing those 4 lower-level funcionalities. 13:54:55 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Portability_and_Provenance 13:55:17 -DKA 13:55:42 indeed 13:55:51 I'm on the call too. 13:55:52 tinkster, are you on the call? 13:55:55 So I'm proposing to Web Finger 13:55:56 messages from God are generally more discrete 13:56:36 ACTION: MacTed look at first few use-cases and see if he can figure out the base-line use-cases which implement the higher-level functionality currently installed. 13:56:36 Sorry, couldn't find user - MacTed 13:56:53 if he populated his profile 13:57:01 Zakim, next agendum 13:57:01 agendum 3. "Invited Guest Invitations" taken up [from hhalpin] 13:57:24 [CONTINUES] ACTION: danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets 13:57:32 [CONTINUES] ACTION: danbri and karl to contact Evan of identi.ca over OpenMicroblogging and W3C. 13:57:38 [CONTINUES] ACTION:Renato and DanBri and hhalpin to schedule DataPortability.org/XMPP 13:57:43 Zakim, next agendum 13:57:43 agendum 3 was just opened, hhalpin 13:57:49 Zakim, agendum 4 13:57:49 I don't understand 'agendum 4', hhalpin 13:57:58 Zakim, close agendum 3 13:57:58 agendum 3, Invited Guest Invitations, closed 13:57:59 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 13:58:00 4. DanBri on WebFinger [from hhalpin] 13:58:02 Zakim, open agendum 4 13:58:02 agendum 4. "DanBri on WebFinger" taken up [from hhalpin] 13:58:17 yes, problem with OpenId is that the user has to enter a URL to identify himself. But with foaf+ssl you don't have to, nor do you have to enter a password. So I have a feeling that foaf+ssl resolves that openid problem. 13:58:23 -AlexPassant 13:58:32 hhalpin - I log in to the wiki as tthibodeau ... is that what you need? 13:58:39 danbri: has found that users did not understand that something like a document looks could be there. 13:58:47 let me figure out how to unmute 13:58:52 yes i heard oyu 13:58:54 yes, was audible 13:58:55 Zakim, unmute tinkster 13:58:55 tinkster was not muted, MacTed 13:58:55 zakim, unmute tinkster 13:58:57 tinkster was not muted, danbri 13:59:28 Zakim, mute me 13:59:28 MacTed should now be muted 13:59:38 danbri: however, making it more like an e-mail address (user@machine) would work. 13:59:52 danbri: it appears that many social web businesses are interested in this. 13:59:57 http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/fingerpoint/ 14:00:07 tinkster: fingerpoint is a semantic web alternative to webfinger 14:00:07 re google deployment, see http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2009-August/009762.html from Bradfitz "If we serve the information as HTML/XFN/hCard, I'm happy serving it all as RDF/FOAF too. More machine-readable data, the better." 14:00:15 tinkster: that has the same deployment. 14:00:22 so I am wondering if the drag and drop of a home page does not solve this problem 14:00:39 (the fingerXXX problem) 14:00:40 tinker: from the user's standpoint, but with a RDF-based infrastructure. 14:01:18 danbri: toby, do you think your system would require that sparl endpoints be set-up? 14:01:23 tinkster: we just use a static turtle file 14:01:38 ah interesting. 14:01:39 zakim, mute me 14:01:39 tinkster should now be muted 14:01:40 tinkster: and then point to sparql.org, a 3-rd party server, so this would work on small sites. 14:01:56 but i thought the question was about big sites 14:02:28 http://fingerpoint.tobyinkster.co.uk/ - very small fingerpoint setup piggybacking onto sparql.org. You can finger somebody@fingerpoint.tobyinkster.co.uk 14:02:41 ("somebody" is not a placeholder there.) 14:03:18 but does sparql engine have to be in the loop somewhere? 14:03:24 rreck: bigger sites can have their own sparql installation. 14:03:25 thanks all 14:03:27 - +1.314.683.aaaa 14:03:27 bye 14:03:28 bye 14:03:31 -tinkster 14:03:31 bye 14:03:32 -oshani 14:03:32 -cperey 14:03:33 bye 14:03:35 -karl 14:03:36 -MacTed 14:03:42 bye 14:03:42 -melvster 14:03:43 -Adam 14:03:52 -claudio 14:03:56 -bblfish 14:03:57 and smaller sites can piggyback off open sparql endpoints, such as sparql.org. 14:04:02 -danbri 14:04:22 tinkster: so you kind of choose your favorite sparql endpoint 14:04:40 danbri: right now, yes - this greatly simplifies the work of the client. theoretically an alternative path of just providing static data could be followed though. 14:04:48 -FabGandon 14:05:03 that would mean though that the client needs to be able to parse various RDF installations, etc 14:05:38 it would be kind of like friending a sparql endpoint 14:05:54 hmmm 14:06:14 ACTION: tthibodeau to see if first half of use-cases can be fit under following scheme: 1. create profile 2. connect to other profiles and 3 collect data from existing profiles and 4. delete profile 14:06:14 Created ACTION-70 - See if first half of use-cases can be fit under following scheme: 1. create profile 2. connect to other profiles and 3 collect data from existing profiles and 4. delete profile [on Ted Thibodeau - due 2009-09-02]. 14:06:27 trackbot, end meeting 14:06:27 Zakim, list attendees 14:06:27 As of this point the attendees have been +1.314.683.aaaa, +1.510.931.aabb, FabGandon, adam, +1.510.931.aacc, +39.011.228.aadd, cperey, tinkster, MacTed, danbri, oshani, hhalpin, 14:06:28 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:06:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html trackbot 14:06:29 RRSAgent, bye 14:06:29 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-actions.rdf : 14:06:29 ACTION: E-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works [1] 14:06:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc#T13-30-48 14:06:29 ACTION: hhalpin e-mail Amy to tell her Monday-Tuesday works [2] 14:06:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc#T13-30-58 14:06:29 ACTION: MacTed look at first few use-cases and see if he can figure out the base-line use-cases which implement the higher-level functionality currently installed. [3] 14:06:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc#T13-56-36 14:06:29 ACTION: tthibodeau to see if first half of use-cases can be fit under following scheme: 1. create profile 2. connect to other profiles and 3 collect data from existing profiles and 4. delete profile [4] 14:06:29 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-irc#T14-06-14 14:06:31 ... bblfish, AlexPassant, claudio, melvster, karl, +7.717.85.aaff, DKA 14:06:34 bblfish: yes, kind of. The relationship is "host to endpoint" rather than "person to endpoint" though.