IRC log of sparql on 2009-08-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:53:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:53:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:53:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:53:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #sparql
13:53:19 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
13:53:19 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
13:53:20 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:53:20 [trackbot]
Date: 25 August 2009
13:53:22 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:53:22 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
13:53:26 [LeeF]
Chair: Axel
13:58:38 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
13:58:52 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:58:53 [Zakim]
13:59:33 [AxelPolleres]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:59:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see EricP
13:59:36 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:59:36 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:59:37 [Zakim]
13:59:43 [Zakim]
13:59:47 [Zakim]
14:00:25 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:00:25 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:00:27 [Zakim]
14:00:39 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has changed the topic to:
14:00:40 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P11 is me
14:00:40 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
14:01:09 [Zakim]
14:01:13 [AxelPolleres]
zakim, who is on the phone
14:01:13 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AxelPolleres
14:01:22 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
14:01:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see EricP, kasei (muted), Ivan, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, SimonS
14:01:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see AxelPolleres, Zakim, RRSAgent, SimonS, AlexPassant, AndyS, ivan, karl, kjetil, LeeF, iv_an_ru, KjetilK, kasei, trackbot, ericP
14:02:14 [AxelPolleres]
zakim, who is here?
14:02:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see EricP, kasei (muted), Ivan, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, SimonS
14:02:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see AxelPolleres, Zakim, RRSAgent, SimonS, AlexPassant, AndyS, ivan, karl, kjetil, LeeF, iv_an_ru, KjetilK, kasei, trackbot, ericP
14:02:22 [LeeF]
Regrets: AndyS, SteveH, pgearon, LukeWM, Chimezie
14:02:37 [AxelPolleres]
anybody on IRC trtying to dial in still?
14:03:07 [AxelPolleres]
14:03:42 [Zakim]
14:03:48 [ericP]
scribenick: ericP
14:03:50 [KjetilK]
Zakim, ??P15 is me
14:03:50 [Zakim]
+KjetilK; got it
14:04:14 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:04:14 [Zakim]
KjetilK should now be muted
14:04:20 [ericP]
topic: Admin
14:04:43 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: want to see if we can get a pub by september
14:04:49 [Zakim]
14:04:52 [AxelPolleres]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
14:05:08 [AxelPolleres]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at
14:05:13 [Zakim]
14:05:20 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P17 is me
14:05:20 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:05:32 [AlexPassant]
14:05:33 [ericP]
next meeting: 1 Sept (note this corrects the agenda)
14:05:41 [ericP]
next scribe: AlexPassant
14:05:41 [ivan]
Regrets for next meeting
14:05:51 [ericP]
topic: Liason reports
14:06:14 [ericP]
14:06:21 [ericP]
topic: Action Tracker
14:06:53 [ericP]
-> pending actions
14:07:17 [LeeF]
My action is still valid & pending.
14:07:19 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: action 16 on Lee appears stale
14:07:31 [LeeF]
Not stale.
14:07:35 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: action 19 on iv_an_ru appears stale
14:07:38 [LeeF]
Except in time :)
14:08:19 [Prateek]
Prateek has joined #sparql
14:08:26 [LeeF]
Half done
14:08:48 [Zakim]
14:08:49 [LeeF]
Just leave it, I think
14:09:14 [AndyS]
14:09:38 [LeeF]
I have nothing to report on 77
14:10:01 [ericP]
topic: Status report FWPDs end-of-September
14:10:52 [ericP]
AndyS: do you mind adding special forms (e.g. coalese) to the functions and operators mission?
14:11:25 [ericP]
... the only special functions we have are &&, || and BOUND
14:11:56 [LeeF]
Glitter has other functions besides those that are in this category (well, at least one)
14:12:22 [ericP]
... COALESCE also needs to see the variables (instead of its values)
14:13:50 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: AndyS, please send mail reminding the group that you are extending action 75
14:14:05 [AxelPolleres]
topic: SPARQL/Query
14:14:21 [AxelPolleres]
14:14:25 [ericP]
AndyS: first one is subselect
14:14:36 [ericP]
... steve and i discussed how we'd edit the doc
14:15:03 [ericP]
... since it's a refinment of the current doc, we'll work in HTML in CVS
14:15:20 [ericP]
... we'll work on major sections in the wiki
14:16:04 [AxelPolleres]
Ivan: same space can be used as DAWG.
14:16:42 [AxelPolleres]
ericP: let's take this offline, will check.
14:16:51 [ericP]
ACTION: ericP to figure out where to find SPARQL2 CVS edit space
14:16:51 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP
14:17:16 [ericP]
AndyS: subselect looks pretty good
14:17:20 [ericP]
... need to sort out syntax
14:17:44 [ericP]
... basically, subselect has no prolog or dataclauses
14:17:58 [ericP]
... steve has tbe mappings from syntax to algebra
14:18:10 [LeeF]
I thought we already decided against it?
14:18:22 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: what about FROM in subselects?
14:18:49 [ericP]
AndyS: if you don't have vars in datasetclauses, there's not much motivation
14:18:53 [SimonS]
How about different default graphs?
14:18:56 [SimonS]
14:19:00 [AndyS]
14:19:02 [ivan]
14:19:09 [ericP]
LeeF: i thing we've already ruled them out
14:19:28 [ericP]
SimonS: second motivation could be different default graph in the subquery
14:19:38 [ericP]
q+ to mention query composability
14:19:45 [ivan]
ack SimonS
14:20:05 [ericP]
AndyS: would like to motivated with missing usability of the lang
14:20:26 [ivan]
ack ivan
14:20:33 [ericP]
ivan: we can mark these as issues in the WG to solicit feedback from the public
14:20:43 [LeeF]
q+ to talk about re-opening decided issues
14:22:25 [LeeF]
14:22:35 [LeeF]
I note that is still open
14:22:38 [LeeF]
Contrary to my memory.
14:23:17 [ericP]
ericP: i assumed a major motivation for subselects was to have query composability, so scripts could be composed with concatonation
14:23:38 [ericP]
LeeF: consensus in earlier discussion was that there was no reason to re-define the dataset
14:24:15 [ericP]
... we can just write it down in the issues and move on
14:24:22 [ericP]
... we'll have to address it before last call
14:25:19 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: there is only one proposal for variable scoping
14:25:57 [ericP]
AndyS: [re aggregates] have a list of issues
14:26:09 [ericP]
... multisets v.s bags (choosing multisets)
14:26:24 [ericP]
... syntax around project expression (ericP's prob)
14:26:58 [ericP]
... have some minor issues mapping from abstract syntax to algebra issues
14:27:47 [ericP]
... we're looking at things that syntactically look like functions, but we're safe because uris are unique [and cheap - ED]
14:27:58 [AxelPolleres]
14:29:08 [ericP]
ericP: created and tested a grammer, using AS var
14:29:26 [ericP]
LeeF: project_Expressions should own the syntax
14:29:36 [Zakim]
14:30:05 [AxelPolleres]
issue there if binindg to AS variable already exists
14:30:06 [ericP]
AndyS: only algebra implication is that they create var bindings, so what if they already exist
14:30:34 [ericP]
(facist) LeeF: propose: requires an AS, requires a var, and error if the var is used
14:30:54 [LeeF]
ISSUE: What happens when expressions are projected with the same name as an existing variable?
14:30:54 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-36 - What happens when expressions are projected with the same name as an existing variable? ; please complete additional details at .
14:31:07 [LeeF]
ACTION: Axel to start thread on mailing list re: ISSUE-36
14:31:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-82 - Start thread on mailing list re: ISSUE-36 [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-01].
14:31:07 [ericP]
AndyS: Virtuoso uses a slightly different syntax so need to take to mailing list
14:31:44 [AxelPolleres]
14:31:48 [LeeF]
14:32:39 [ericP]
AndyS: [Re: Negation] last time we straw polled, there was emphasis on the NOT EXISTS and we said we'd mention MINUS
14:32:59 [ericP]
... am working on formalizing the relationship between the two
14:33:43 [ericP]
ericP: found diffs between them?
14:34:10 [ericP]
AndyS: yes in OPTIONALs and FILTERs cases
14:34:43 [ericP]
... same issues that arrise in vars introduced in OPTIONALs
14:35:04 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: add a pointer to that email thread?
14:35:26 [ericP]
AndyS: not sure it will make a difference
14:35:46 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: propose a link to concrete examples
14:35:49 [ivan]
14:35:56 [ericP]
14:36:12 [ericP]
AndyS: prefer to leave to editors to see what they can get done
14:36:31 [ericP]
ivan: current negation page is inconsistent with the examples we want to use
14:36:43 [ericP]
14:37:11 [LeeF]
14:37:12 [LeeF]
14:37:27 [ericP]
AndyS: pref [NOT] EXISTS
14:37:36 [ericP]
ivan: does NOT show up elsewhere?
14:37:39 [LeeF]
14:37:42 [ivan]
14:37:53 [AxelPolleres]
strawpoll on [NOT] EXISTS
14:37:55 [AxelPolleres]
14:38:05 [SimonS]
14:38:10 [kasei]
14:38:18 [Prateek]
14:39:26 [ericP]
ivan: EXISTS { .. } is usefull
14:39:36 [AxelPolleres]
P1 EXISTS P2 != P1 P2
14:39:38 [ericP]
... (not as useful as negation, but still useful)
14:39:57 [AxelPolleres]
strawpoll !EXISTS
14:40:02 [ivan]
14:40:07 [AxelPolleres]
14:40:13 [LeeF]
14:40:27 [SimonS]
14:40:29 [kasei]
14:40:53 [AndyS]
14:41:01 [AxelPolleres]
strawpoll UNSAID
14:41:02 [ericP]
ericP: "!" vs. "NOT" seems syntactic but atomic EXISTS is a new feature
14:41:03 [ivan]
14:41:08 [LeeF]
14:41:09 [AxelPolleres]
14:41:09 [AndyS]
14:41:14 [ericP]
14:41:18 [kasei]
14:41:29 [SimonS]
14:41:43 [AlexPassant]
+1 on exists / not exists
14:42:29 [AxelPolleres]
andyS: have already sent an example on EXISTS
14:42:32 [ericP]
ivan: if we are motivated by EXISTS, then sure, "NOT EXISTS", otherwise two keywords is funny and potentially confusing
14:42:58 [ericP]
ericP: we need to not just see it, but decide if we're motivated by it
14:43:15 [AxelPolleres]
topic: Errata
14:44:03 [ericP]
LeeF: AndyS and i have lists
14:44:20 [ericP]
... we don't need to handle them by FPWD
14:44:37 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Lee to synchronize list of Errata with AndyS
14:44:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-83 - Synchronize list of Errata with AndyS [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-09-01].
14:45:00 [ericP]
AndyS: would like to sync before FPWD
14:45:16 [ivan]
14:45:17 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: when do you think we'll have a 1st version for us to review?
14:45:28 [ericP]
AndyS: steve and i haven't disucssed that
14:45:42 [ericP]
... maybe by the end of september
14:46:05 [ericP]
... we can vary any two of { time , resources , content }
14:46:20 [ericP]
... would like text on each mandatory feature
14:46:38 [ericP]
... not necessarily consistent, noted in the SOTD
14:46:38 [AxelPolleres]
14:47:11 [ericP]
ivan: FPWD will contain only new features? or will it integrate with SPARQL1?
14:47:36 [ericP]
AndyS: timeliness might dictate just the new features. haven't consulted steve
14:48:10 [ericP]
... following structure of SPARQL1 until someone persuades us otherwise
14:48:34 [ericP]
ivan: a delta doc for FPWD is easier, quicker, and potentially better for public feedback
14:48:43 [ericP]
... does it cause us more work later?
14:49:03 [Zakim]
14:49:10 [KjetilK]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
14:49:10 [Zakim]
+KjetilK; got it
14:49:27 [ericP]
AndyS: will give progress reports at every conference
14:49:27 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: AndyS and SteveH to decide whether FPWD should be inegrated or only new features
14:49:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-84 - And SteveH to decide whether FPWD should be inegrated or only new features [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-09-01].
14:50:43 [ericP]
SimonS: we integrate now (to save later integration) and hilight new sections
14:50:51 [AxelPolleres]
Topic: SPARQL/Update
14:51:08 [SimonS]
14:51:28 [ericP]
SimonS: plan is to extend SPARUL submission
14:51:36 [ericP]
... plan to use CVS from the start
14:52:49 [AxelPolleres]
pls use q, thanks!
14:53:02 [ivan]
14:53:05 [SimonS]
14:53:09 [ivan]
ack ivan
14:53:10 [AndyS]
q+ to ask what's the cost of retro fitting the XSLT process to the existing SPARQL/Query
14:53:28 [ericP]
ericP: [mentions xml-spec]
14:53:47 [ericP]
ivan: sharing text between the two motivates using the same approach for both
14:53:55 [AxelPolleres]
14:54:26 [AndyS]
EricP: Choices: CVS+xml-spec , CVS+HTML, wiki.
14:54:35 [AxelPolleres]
ack SimonS
14:54:42 [ericP]
14:55:26 [AxelPolleres]
ack AndyS
14:55:26 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask what's the cost of retro fitting the XSLT process to the existing SPARQL/Query
14:55:26 [ericP]
SimonS: didn't know about xml-spec, but prefer to use same authoring tool
14:56:14 [AndyS]
14:58:28 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Eric to look into xmlspec for SPARQL/Query with AndyS
14:58:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-85 - Look into xmlspec for SPARQL/Query with AndyS [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-09-01].
14:59:04 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:59:04 [Zakim]
KjetilK should now be muted
14:59:09 [ericP]
AxelPolleres: what's a reasonable ETA for Update?
14:59:33 [ericP]
SimonS: Paul is on vacation for two weeks, but i could create a first version in the mean time
15:00:01 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: SimonS to draft first version of SPARQL/Update by 2009-09-15
15:00:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-86 - Draft first version of SPARQL/Update by 2009-09-15 [on Simon Schenk - due 2009-09-01].
15:00:03 [AndyS]
15:00:22 [AndyS]
q+ to ask where SPARQL/Update/Protocol goes for FPWD?
15:01:02 [ericP]
AndyS: where will the ReSTful update stuff go?
15:01:28 [ericP]
SimonS: also had that question
15:01:43 [ericP]
q+ to propose protocol
15:01:53 [AxelPolleres]
Can we put this on email? I need to run.
15:01:56 [ericP]
SimonS: expected another doc, or protocol
15:02:09 [ericP]
... prefer separate, no strong opinion
15:02:10 [ericP]
15:02:18 [AndyS]
ack AndyS
15:02:18 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask where SPARQL/Update/Protocol goes for FPWD?
15:02:37 [Zakim]
15:02:39 [Zakim]
15:02:40 [Zakim]
15:02:41 [Zakim]
15:02:47 [Zakim]
15:02:54 [Zakim]
15:02:56 [AxelPolleres]
need to run, eric, can you do the minutes? Thanks for scribing!
15:04:22 [SimonS]
Andy, Eric, I stay on the phone as this affects me as well.
15:05:03 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #sparql
15:06:39 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, make records public
15:06:43 [AndyS] (out of date but a start)
15:11:06 [ericP]
ACTION: ericP to find the editor's draft of features and rats
15:11:06 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - ericP
15:11:14 [Zakim]
15:11:25 [LeeF]
ACTION: eric to find the editor's draft of features and rats
15:11:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-87 - Find the editor's draft of features and rats [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-09-01].
15:11:43 [LeeF]
EricP, AndyS - I think that document is at
15:12:37 [ericP]
i doubt SimonS, Paul, AndyS, and SteveH have access there
15:12:39 [ericP]
will check
15:12:48 [ericP]
not sure now
15:14:34 [ericP]
misha: launched gene expression atlas
15:14:54 [ericP]
... genes X anatomy
15:15:24 [ericP]
15:15:33 [Zakim]
15:15:34 [Zakim]
15:16:47 [AndyS]
Leef: what's that in CVS space?
15:18:20 [Zakim]
15:18:21 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:18:22 [Zakim]
Attendees were EricP, Ivan, kasei, AxelPolleres, AlexPassant, SimonS, KjetilK, LeeF, AndyS, Prateek
15:28:25 [LeeF]
AndyS, I don't know, sorry
15:28:33 [AndyS]
I think it's cvs co -d SPARQL WWW/2009/sparql
15:28:51 [AndyS]
That at least finds a copy of the rationale doc.
15:48:08 [SimonS]
access denied for me
15:50:30 [SimonS]
SimonS has left #sparql
16:12:49 [AndyS]
There is access control applied. My previously uploaded SSH key works so maybe my access was copied over from DAWG space.
16:48:20 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, make records public
17:22:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sparql