13:03:00 RRSAgent has joined #wam 13:03:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-wam-irc 13:03:12 ScribeNick: ArtB 13:03:14 Scribe: Art 13:03:17 Chair: Art 13:03:24 Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference 13:03:27 + +47.23.69.aabb 13:03:29 Marcos, public-webapps / whatwg ? 13:03:30 Date: 20 August 2009 13:03:33 Zakim, aabb is me 13:03:33 +arve; got it 13:03:48 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0741.html 13:04:03 Regrets: Frederick 13:04:19 +Marcos 13:04:29 Present: Art, Bryan, Marcin, Arve, Marcos 13:05:06 Topic: Review and tweak agenda 13:05:13 AB: draft agenda submitted on August 19 ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0741.html ). Since then there have been some comments on the A&E spec and View Modes (VM) spec. 13:06:01 AB: should we add A+E spec today or continue discussions on the mail list? 13:06:05 ... any prefs? 13:06:19 MH: I suggest using the mail list 13:06:25 AB: any objections to that? 13:06:28 [ None ] 13:06:42 AB: we'll keep the agenda as is 13:06:43 Topic: Announcements 13:06:52 AB: the draft agenda agenda included 3 reminders/announcements. Does anyone have any short announcements they want to make? 13:07:03 [ None ] 13:07:11 Topic: P&C spec: IRI/URI normalization 13:07:21 AB: last week Marcin started a thread ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0644.html ) regarding IRI/URI normalization and the P&C Candidate. This email was sent to the I18N Core WG. 13:07:51 AB: Addison indicated the I18N WG would review the email 13:08:00 ... but I don't think that has yet happened 13:08:16 AB: Marcin, do you want to discuss this today? 13:08:27 MH: I don't know when they will review my email 13:08:36 ... but Addison said they will review it 13:08:46 ... I don't know when they have telcos 13:09:00 AB: any followup for today? 13:09:04 MH: I don't think so 13:09:27 AB: do we defer discussion until I18N WG has responded? 13:09:35 MC: yes; I have nothing to add today 13:09:41 Topic: P&C Test Suite status 13:09:48 AB: Marcos sent an email about the P&C Test suite ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0671.html ) and he solicited comments/feedback. He also included a pointer to the P&C Test Suite Edition (aka TSE) ( http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/Overview_TSE.html#prologue ). 13:10:21 AB: any comments for Marcos? 13:10:46 http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/tests/ 13:10:47 AB: Marcos, can you give us an update of your related discussions with the MWTS WG? 13:10:58 MC: all tests will go in the URI above 13:11:15 ... this will be the template we use 13:11:23 ... explains how to write a test 13:11:38 ... Still hoping to get more guidance from MWTS WG 13:12:02 ... Will try to minimize dependencies on other specs 13:12:20 ... The tests will be targeted at the P+C UA 13:12:28 ... Want to minimize resolution 13:13:04 ... Working with Kai Hendry on structuring, verification, etc. 13:13:13 ... Kai will make tests and so will I 13:13:21 ... We will then verify each others tests 13:13:42 ... Tests will only be added to the official test suite when someone has verified a test 13:14:04 ... Others are free to write tests too and to verify them 13:14:21 ... Opera will contribute tests but they need to be ported to our tempate 13:14:28 BS: how does one verify? 13:14:47 MC: make sure it is written correctly i.e. the test actually tests the assertion 13:14:57 ... this isn't pure science 13:15:15 ... we must have someone else do the verificatin 13:15:39 ... the TS is very important so we need to do it right 13:15:58 AB: any comments or feedback for Marcos? 13:16:22 BS: re the process, you automatically extracted the assertions, right? 13:16:24 MC: yes 13:16:38 BS: and that depends on some specific markup to work, right? 13:16:40 MC: yes 13:16:51 ... is that some W3C-specific mechanism? 13:17:10 MC: yes but any other spec writer could use this mechanism 13:17:27 ... no magic is used 13:17:41 BS: this is an interesting convention for others to use 13:17:45 MC: agree 13:18:17 AB: I agree this is a neat mechanism 13:18:54 ... perhaps you can give a related talk at the November TPAC meeting e.g. a Lightning Talk 13:18:59 MC: yes, I can do that 13:19:10 BS: what's the prereq to make this work? 13:19:36 MC: must read the spec at least once; use links to definitions 13:21:01 AB: re the "minimize resolution", what do you mean? 13:21:33 MC: want a test to test just one particular aspect of the UA 13:22:10 RRSAgent, make log Public 13:22:27 ... want each test case to be as precise and targeted as possible 13:22:55 AB: right, atomic test cases 13:23:25 MC: will create a way to make it easy to download all the tests 13:23:35 ... and a XML format that describes the tests 13:23:40 ... that will also need review 13:24:00 AB: are there any actions for the rest of u? 13:24:14 MC: please start reviewing the TSE and send comments 13:24:45 ... the test suite will meet Opera's needs; want it to also meet other's needs 13:24:56 BS: I will certainly take a look at it 13:25:29 AB: how many test cases are now verified? 13:25:40 MC: none are yet verified 13:25:50 ... I expect we will need at least 200 test cases 13:25:58 ... I just uploaded the document yesterday 13:26:37 ... We are being a bit cautious about the test cases as we want someone from MWTS e.g. Dom to give a "Blessing" before we start creating a bunch of tests 13:26:58 ... I've been looking at a bunch of test suites e.g. CSS, Annes, etc. 13:27:14 ... We want to leverage as much "Collective Wisdom" as possible 13:27:27 ... and thus get it right the 1st time 13:28:20 AB: do you need someone to ping Dom about this? 13:28:27 MC: I've already done that 13:28:54 ... on the MWTS mail list for sure, perhaps public-webapps too 13:29:06 ... I'll send another request today 13:29:22 AB: this is excellent; thanks! 13:29:38 Topic: View Modes spec: 13:29:48 AB: Marcin recently updated the View Modes (VM) spec ( http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/waf/widgets-vm/ ). Let's first see where we are the FPWD's ToDo list created by Robin a few weeks ago ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0218.html ). Based on that discussion, we will probably need to assign actions for some of the list items. 13:30:27 MH: several of these items are now done 13:30:43 ... I am keeping a list; the rest should be done by tomorrow 13:31:00 ... Event intitializers still needs to be discussed 13:31:08 ... that thread was started by Cam and Robin 13:31:39 MH: need to copy some definitions and/or link to them 13:32:24 AB: any comments about Marcin's status? 13:33:03 AB: do we want to cover http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0764.html today? 13:33:10 MC: yes; I think so 13:33:26 MH: yes 13:33:47 Topic: View Modes spec: Proposal: split the specification, add new events 13:34:10 AB: earlier today, Marcin submitted a proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0764.html to split the VM spec into two 13:34:39 MH: there is some inconistency between VM and MQ spec 13:34:59 ... I think it would be better to split the spec into two separate specs 13:35:15 ... keep the MQ and Events together in a new spec 13:35:31 ... Ch #3 of the current doc would go in one spec 13:35:39 ... Ch #4 would go in the new spec 13:36:15 AB: any feedback on splitting the spec? 13:37:25 ... Given this proposal is very recent, I'm a little reluctant to make a decision on the split now 13:37:39 ... OTOH, if this is blocking progress, we can increase the urgency of a decision 13:37:47 MH: I'm OK with waiting 13:38:40 AB: if we do a split, are you Marcin, willing to be the main Editor and driver? 13:38:43 MH: yes 13:39:59 MH: the one spec probably will not be part of the Widgets 1.0 spec suite but the other will be 13:40:54 AB: I'll respond to the proposal and ask WG members to submit feedback on the proposal by August 27 13:41:41 ACTION: barstow respond to Marcin's VM spec split 13:41:42 Created ACTION-394 - Respond to Marcin's VM spec split [on Arthur Barstow - due 2009-08-27]. 13:42:12 MH: I will follow-up with my email with some more details and include CSS WG 13:42:16 AB: good idea 13:42:27 AB: any other feedback on the spec split? 13:42:53 MC: I have no objections to the spec split 13:43:09 BS: I don't have a strong opinion; 13:43:37 ... want to get a better understanding of what is put in the widget spec space versus the broader Web Apps use cases 13:44:08 MH: CSS Media Queries is relevant here 13:45:06 ... if the View Modes is part of the Widgets spec suite, reader will assume the context is for widgets 13:45:55 BS: need to get a better understanding of what goes into the two different specs 13:47:08 MH: think we need a separate document that ties all of the Widgets specs together 13:47:10 http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/#widgets-1.0-family-of-specifications 13:47:57 ACTION: barstow what is good way to capture the notion of "Family of Widget Specs"? 13:47:57 Created ACTION-395 - What is good way to capture the notion of "Family of Widget Specs"? [on Arthur Barstow - due 2009-08-27]. 13:48:11 http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/#widgets-1.0-family-of-specifications has 6 docs 13:48:28 AB: anything else on the spec split for today? 13:48:30 http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-apis/#widgets-1.0-family-of-specifications has 7 docs 13:48:31 [ No ] 13:48:41 Topic: VM spec: Best practice and scalability 13:48:48 AB: earlier this week Richard Tibbett sent an email about the VM spec ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0667.html ) and I don't think anyone has yet responded. 13:49:12 AB: I believe Richard is a member of the WG 13:50:15 AB: one option is to postpone discussion until Richard can join us 13:50:32 ... another option is to follow-up on the mail list 13:50:37 MC: I prefer the mail list option 13:50:44 AB: any other opinions? 13:50:49 MH: mail list 13:51:06 AB: all - please followup Richard 13:51:12 ... email on the list 13:51:28 BS: think we need some discussion Richard's email 13:51:49 ... need more discussion about events and scalability 13:52:02 Topic: URI Scheme spec: next steps 13:52:14 AB: the last publication of the URI Scheme spec was 18 June. What is the status of that spec ( http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/waf/widgets-uri/ ) and what are the next steps? 13:52:39 AB: I notice now that Robin isn't here 13:53:05 ... We will postpone discussion unless someone has some urgent comments on this spec 13:53:09 [ None ] 13:53:31 Topic: AOB 13:53:49 AB: Marcos, any recent emails we want to discuss now? 13:53:57 MC: not really 13:54:06 AB: WebStorage? 13:54:25 MC: WebStorage changing to arbitrary data will affect A+E spec 13:54:37 ... the LCWD is no longer correct 13:54:52 AB: that's not good 13:55:14 MC: a lot of the related discussions are happening on the WHAT WG mail list 13:55:28 ... which I don't follow 13:55:34 ... nor the HTML5 list 13:55:44 BS: what's the main change? 13:55:59 MC: Storage used to just be Strings and now it can be anything 13:56:13 ... that will affect implementation 13:56:36 ... could in theory store the Storage or Window object 13:56:52 ... need to understand the reason the spec was changed 13:57:11 ... think there is a now a req to store structured data e.g. JSON 13:57:34 ... originally, Storage was just for Strings 13:58:14 BS: so now I could store an image? 13:58:22 MC: yes, I think in theory that is now possible 13:58:32 ... Look at the latest ED 13:58:46 http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/ 13:58:46 http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/ 13:59:13 AB: so this has the potential to have a serious impact on the A+E LC? 13:59:35 MC: the spec will need to change 13:59:51 ... not clear yet if that change will be considered Serious or not 14:00:01 ... I need to learn more about "why" the spec changed 14:00:17 AB: any other AOB for today? 14:00:22 [ None ] 14:00:35 AB: Meeting Adjourned 14:00:40 -Art_Barstow 14:00:42 -Marcos 14:00:44 -arve 14:00:46 RRSAgent, make minutes 14:00:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-wam-minutes.html ArtB 14:00:49 - +49.208.4.aaaa 14:01:24 zakim, bye 14:01:24 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +49.208.4.aaaa, Bryan_Sullivan, Art_Barstow, +47.23.69.aabb, arve, Marcos 14:01:24 Zakim has left #wam 14:03:13 timeless_mbp has joined #wam 14:04:53 RRSAgent, bye 14:04:53 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-wam-actions.rdf : 14:04:53 ACTION: barstow respond to Marcin's VM spec split [1] 14:04:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-wam-irc#T13-41-41 14:04:53 ACTION: barstow what is good way to capture the notion of "Family of Widget Specs"? [2] 14:04:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-wam-irc#T13-47-57