00:35:41 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7373] Need to fix "If a Document or image was returned by the XMLHttpRequest API" now that the document pointer concept is gone. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0219.html> 4** [Bug 7374] legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0218.html> 4** [Bug 7375] Incorrect specification for window.postMessage()'s hand
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02:36:14 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7374] legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0220.html>
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03:52:33 <pimpbot> planet: Jonny Axelsson: Conditional Comments in HTML5? <11http://my.opera.com/jax/blog/show.dml/4257206>
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05:06:53 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7377] New: s/Dahltröm/Dahlström/ <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0221.html>
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06:22:17 <hsivonen> Hixie: awesome. Does the W3C's own pubrules checker violate the caching advice on DTDs?
06:37:14 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7378] New: element name case fixup table is missing two SVG1.2T entries <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0222.html>
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07:07:22 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7378] element name case fixup table is missing two SVG1.2T entries <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0225.html> 4** [Bug 7379] HTML5 should reference SVG1.1 as well as SVG1.2T <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0224.html> 4** [Bug 7379] New: HTML5 should reference SVG1.1 as well as SVG1.2T <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0223.html>
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07:37:27 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7381] Clarify default encoding wording and add some examples for non-latin locales. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0229.html> 4** [Bug 7380] Suggest heuristic detection of UTF-8 <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0228.html> 4** [Bug 7381] New: Clarify default encoding wording and add some examples for non-latin locales. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-
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08:07:34 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6853] restore meta keywords, search engines use them <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0231.html> 4** [Bug 7374] legend as child of details, figure is unstylable and thus unusable <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0230.html>
08:07:35 <pimpbot> changes: "mike: added ARIA-integration version at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/aria/ - based on validator.nu HTML5+ARIA schema" (4 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0194.html>
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09:07:49 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7382] U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN in escaping text spans <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0233.html> 4** [Bug 7382] New: U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN in escaping text spans <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0232.html>
09:09:00 <anne2> MikeSmith, can I get editbugs?
09:09:20 <MikeSmith> anne2: yeah, I thought you had them already
09:09:26 <MikeSmith> will do it right now
09:09:44 <anne2> cheers, there was a few times I thought I'd add the NE keyword but couldn't
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09:10:05 <anne2> never really needed it before
09:11:14 <MikeSmith> OK, done
09:37:56 <pimpbot> changes: "mike: tweaked the metainfo for the ARIA version so that that gets labeled correctly" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0196.html>
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11:08:20 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7384] New: editorial: " (either an HTMLImageElement or an HTMLCanvasElement)" is missing HTMLVideoElement <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0235.html> 4** [Bug 7383] New: drawImage(video) and createPattern(video) should say that the aspect-ratio-corrected dimensions must be used <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0234.html>
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11:26:00 <Stevef> zcorpan: is http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements up to date?
11:26:01 <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Elements and Attributes (at simon.html5.org)
11:27:08 <anne2> last updated August 5
11:27:12 <anne2> should be pretty accurate
11:28:24 <Lachy> yeah, it looks accurate. The last elements dropped from HTML5 were datagrid and bb, and they're both gone from the list
11:29:37 <Stevef> ok thanks
11:30:31 <anne2> more up to date than html5-diff
11:30:37 <anne2> should prolly fix that before pubtime
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11:44:28 <ed_work> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#dom-context-2d-drawimage wish that was more open for other graphic sources, e.g SVGImageElement (similar to HTMLImageElement), and SVGSVGElement for more interesting cases
11:44:29 <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
11:51:11 <anne2> ed_work, I proposed that
11:51:37 <anne2> ed_work, the response was that allowing SVG was in effect allowing anything due to <foreignObject>
11:52:35 <anne2> ed_work, I was not entirely convinced, but decided not to argue it further at the time
11:52:55 <ed_work> anne2: don't see how allowing e.g the svg:video and svg:image elements to fetch their references and load them similarly to html:image and html:video is harmful
11:53:45 <ed_work> and it would be fine by me to not allow <foreignObject> to draw anything if rendered through drawImage
11:56:35 <anne2> I don't think it's being seen as harmful
11:56:56 <hsivonen> ed_work: is there a use case for SVGImageElement and SVGVideoElement drawing onto canvas that isn't already addressed by the corresponding HTML elements?
11:57:02 <anne2> I think the issue was perceived too big to tackle with plug-ins, etc.
11:57:10 <anne2> CSS, security, etc.
11:57:27 <hsivonen> Gecko can already draw a whole window onto canvas, no?
11:57:32 <hsivonen> but only with chrome privs
11:57:53 <hsivonen> the whole thing is security-tainted basically
11:58:08 <anne2> hsivonen, I'm not sure if plug-ins work correctly there and figuring out security for the Web is definitely hard
11:58:30 <anne2> hsivonen, probably you'd have to forbid extracting anything from the <canvas> at that point, but that'd be a shame
12:01:29 <ed_work> hsivonen: well, I don't see a point in explicitly forbidding those cases (throwing exceptions that is), why should I have to duplicate my elements if I happened to do most of an app in svg?
12:03:30 <hsivonen> ed_work: supporting those cases makes sense from Web dev point of view
12:03:42 <hsivonen> seems to add spec & browser complexity, though
12:05:43 <ed_work> for video and image? complex to fetch the right url and load it? come on ;)
12:11:04 <anne2> complex to support more element types that work differently with respect to sizing?
12:11:15 <anne2> complex to support additional elements in general
12:16:59 <hsivonen> sigh. script execution and parsing has ended up as being even more intertwingled than I though
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13:47:49 <DanC> re "Does the W3C's own pubrules checker violate the caching advice on DTDs?" quite possibly; the advice is newer than the checker. I suggest reporting the problem to spec-prod@w3.org.
13:48:27 <DanC> I seem to recall that Ian Jacobs said the integration with patent policy database stuff means that the offline checker is no longer supported. :-/
13:55:05 <pimpbot> planet: WebSocket for HTML5 <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1253683/websocket-for-html5>
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14:08:18 <DanC> I haven't read the "... text alternatives ..." thread; anybody care to nominate a few messages that summarize the thread?
14:11:06 <hsivonen> DanC: I suggest http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1015.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1046.html
14:11:07 <pimpbot> Title: Re: feedback requested on WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 document from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
14:13:48 <DanC> thanks
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15:02:04 <Julian> DanC, +1 (your comment on "valid URL" in HTML5)
15:03:48 <anne2> might make sense if web addresses was actually worked on :/
15:04:00 <DanC> in what way is it not actually worked on?
15:04:07 <Julian> Yes, but I think these issues are orthogonal
15:04:21 <Julian> using the term "URL" in the spec for things that aren't URLs is just confusing
15:04:33 <anne2> DanC, it's been silent over a month with respect to comments Hixie and I left on public-iri
15:04:43 <anne2> not over, sorry, for a month
15:05:18 <DanC> hmm... not even an acknowledgement of the comments? I know larry is working on that draft; he calls me about it from time to time
15:05:32 <anne2> nada
15:05:40 <DanC> :-/
15:06:07 <anne2> haven't received replies to my web linking or whatever it's called today either, but did get an acknowledgment from mnot
15:07:30 <Julian> Anne, trying to recall: did you raise anything Hixie didn't later on...?
15:10:03 <DanC> anne2, is your month old comment this request for diffs? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2009Jul/0013.html or are there others from you?
15:10:05 <pimpbot> Title: [draft-duerst-iri-bis-06] differences from HTML5 algorithm from Anne van Kesteren on 2009-07-23 (public-iri@w3.org from July 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
15:10:14 <DanC> oh... I see others
15:10:28 <anne2> there's others
15:10:59 <anne2> Julian, no idea
15:11:03 <hsivonen> Julian, DanC: I think the non-silly thing to do would be making Web Addresses update RFC 3986 so that URL would mean the right thing
15:12:20 <DanC> I wonder what's the process for updating a full IETF standard.
15:12:51 <DanC> it sorta comes down to a question of whether "../xyz" is an appropriate answer to "hurl me an url?"
15:13:03 <Julian> henri, I think it's a terrible idea.
15:13:17 <Julian> DanC, I don't it ever has been done before.
15:13:34 <hsivonen> Julian: why is making de jure terminology match actual usage a terrible idea?
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15:14:05 <Julian> Henri, it only matches actual usage in some places.
15:14:20 <hsivonen> I think it's normal usage to call "../xyz" a "relative URL"
15:14:23 <Julian> Please stop assuming that it's all about those four browsers.
15:14:24 <DanC> hsivonen, are you sure people call ".../xyz" an URL? It's not at all clear to me.
15:14:48 <Julian> it used to be called relative URI in RFC 2396.
15:14:57 <Julian> But a "relative URI" is not a "URI2
15:15:03 <DanC> let's see... wikipedia has googlemark on "url" ...
15:15:10 <Julian> Thus RFC 3986 changed to call it a relative reference
15:15:36 <Julian> you can't but IRIs nor whitespace on the wire in HTTP
15:15:44 <Julian> s/but/put/
15:15:58 <hsivonen> Julian: fwiw, I don't mean it's about the four browsers. I mean it's about all the people out there who think they know what a URL is.
15:16:03 <Julian> (IRIs containing non-ASCII characters)
15:16:04 <anne2> Julian, how does terminology usage have anything to do with "those four browsers"?
15:16:42 <DanC> looks like the "experts" have had a little too much influence on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Locator . that article is full of standards-speak, so doesn't really help
15:16:43 <pimpbot> Title: Uniform Resource Locator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
15:16:44 <hsivonen> fwiw, Gecko calls it nsIURI
15:16:45 <Julian> do you really think there'll be *less* confusion by changing what URL/URI means?
15:16:52 <hsivonen> which is neither URL nor IRI
15:17:06 <DanC> agreed, "it's about all the people out there who think they know what a URL is."
15:17:20 <anne2> DanC, it does mention "In popular usage and in many technical documents and verbal discussions it is often incorrectly used as a synonym for URI."
15:17:32 <anne2> which would supports hsivonen's point
15:17:53 <DanC> huh? it would support my point, which is that "../xyz" is not a URL
15:18:04 <Julian> URL vs URI isn't significant
15:18:05 <hsivonen> people who can read a "URL" on the side of a bus and type it to an address bar and people who author links with "URLs" far outnumber RFC lawyers
15:18:11 <Julian> URI vs IRI vs "Web Address" is
15:18:21 <Julian> URI and URL share the same syntax
15:18:39 <Julian> but those people do not read the HTML spec
15:18:41 <anne2> DanC, ah, I was assuming that Wikipedia would not be that smart, but maybe it is :)
15:19:12 <hsivonen> you need to munge a URL into a URI in order to hand it off to an ASCII-only protocol
15:19:13 <anne2> DanC, I have never really encountered anyone other than a few standards people that knew that URI only includes absolute URIs
15:20:12 <DanC> I suppose it depends on context, somewhat. If you ask them "what goes in an href attribute?" they'd say sure, "../xyz" is fine, but...
15:20:30 <DanC> if they said "hurl me an url" and you replied with "../xyz", they'd look at you funny
15:20:44 <hsivonen> you put an "absolute URL" in the address bar. you can put a "relative URL" in href
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15:22:56 <DanC> meanwhile, there's the question of whether the HTML 5 spec is really meant for joe-on-the-street. It's a standards document, after all, and it's aimed at the same audience as the HTTP and URI specs, so it ought to be reasonably consistent with them.
15:23:32 <hsivonen> it's also aimed at people who write HTML tutorials
15:23:44 <hsivonen> and at enlightened designers
15:23:51 <hsivonen> it's not just for HTTP hackers
15:24:25 <hsivonen> I'd expect the concept to remain visible even if you hide implementation-specific stuff
15:24:51 <anne2> if we could call it IRI I suppose that'd be fine too
15:25:08 <anne2> but I suspect it'd have to be something silly like IRI reference
15:25:22 <hsivonen> I think "Web address" is better than IRI
15:25:36 <hsivonen> URI, IRI and LEIRI are all RFC lawyer terms
15:26:52 <Julian> I still have't given up on making LEIRIs and Web Addresses the same thing. But maybe that's just me.
15:27:43 <hsivonen> trying to kill a wildly successful term like URL (as opposed to updating the spec to match the success)
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15:28:02 <hsivonen> is on terminology level similar to trying to kill a wildly successful format like HTML
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15:28:12 <hsivonen> on the technology level instead of updating it
15:28:23 <DanC> I tried to make that point at the time the URI spec was in development, hsivonen (i.e. "let's just use URL, rather than URI") but I lost.
15:28:35 <anne2> Julian, yeah, makes not too much sense that they're different
15:29:10 <anne2> Julian, especially if the encoding flag is UTF-8 unless explicitly stated otherwise
15:29:20 <DanC> updating the standard definition of URL has some merit; I hope you'll float the idea in mail, hsivonen . it's more work than I want to contemplate, so I'm not interested to advocate it
15:29:31 <Julian> DanC, I don't think we're discussing URL vs URI
15:29:52 <DanC> we're discussing whether "../xyz" is a URL
15:30:26 <hsivonen> Julian: I want references to LEIRIs to be replaced with references to Web addresses / URLs, too
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15:30:38 <DanC> both wikipedia and the java API docs are inconsistent. They say "every URL starts with scheme:" and then they say "there are also relative URLs"
15:31:12 <DanC> "LEIRI" is... well... I find it hard to take seriously.
15:31:17 <Julian> The Java API docs are written in terms of RFC2396 (or earlier) and should be fixed.
15:32:27 <DanC> 3rd google hit for "URL" says they all start with scheme: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/U/URL.html
15:32:28 <pimpbot> Title: What is URL? - A Word Definition From the Webopedia Computer Dictionary (at www.webopedia.com)
15:34:08 <DanC> w3schools doesn't take a hard line either way... http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_url.asp it uses a different term for relative addresses, though
15:34:09 <pimpbot> Title: HTML URL's (at www.w3schools.com)
15:34:51 <Julian> DanC, I think what's being discussed is whether things like "http://example.com/foo/bar/ä ö ü ß" are URLs or URIs. They are not, and never will be.
15:34:54 <DanC> this one clearly says an URL is whatever goes in an href http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/quicklist.html
15:34:55 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Quick List - HTML Code Tutorial (at www.htmlcodetutorial.com)
15:36:07 <DanC> well, that too, Julian. "never will be"? I don't see how we can be certain of that.
15:37:18 <Julian> DanC, it would break lots of specs that rely on certain qualities of URIs
15:37:32 <Julian> Such as being ASCII only, and not containing whitespace
15:37:33 <DanC> yes, there would be a cost to updating all the relevant specs
15:38:12 <Julian> needless additional confusion
15:38:20 <anne2> I don't think anybody was suggesting to change the definition of URI
15:38:29 <anne2> unless it's broken somehow I suppose
15:38:47 <Julian> I totally agree that people are confused today, but changing what URI or URL means IMHO will make things worse not better
15:39:03 <Julian> So what's the proposal then?
15:39:06 <DanC> this tutorial uses URLs only for things that start with scheme: http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/tut/tut8a.html http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/tut/tut8b.html 
15:39:08 <pimpbot> Title: 8a. Linking to Local Files (at www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu)
15:39:32 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7386] New: SharedWorkerGlobalScope <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0236.html>
15:40:38 <DanC> I understood hsivonen's proposal to be: in the new IRI spec, redefine URL to be the same as what it currently calls "web address"
15:40:44 <anne2> Julian, to have URL mean the thing it means in HTML5
15:40:53 <anne2> DanC, me too
15:42:05 <Julian> Anne, URL or valid URL?
15:43:20 <anne2> the latter is a subset, so the former
15:44:37 <Julian> so make it a superset of IRI, but leave URI alone?
15:44:54 <anne2> yes
15:45:19 <Julian> I don#t think that's a good idea.
15:46:11 <anne2> you already said that
15:46:40 <Julian> but last time I said it I was thinking you were proposing something else :-)
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15:48:53 <annevk> fair enough
15:48:59 <annevk> I still think it's a great idea
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15:52:03 <DanC> updating the defintion of URL has some merit, but it's a ton of work to do all the relevant IETF coordination. that's why Roy has said it'll never happen (or words to that effect)
15:52:40 <DanC> standards docs aren't as malleable as street-speak
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15:53:25 <DanC> there's an argument that the IETF did an open call for participation and standardized the term, and now the community is obliged to stick with it.
15:53:57 <annevk> seems Roy doesn't really like what we do anyway so I wouldn't be surprised
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15:54:42 <DanC> you could give him the benefit of the doubt that there's more than "I don't like what you do" behind his positions, annevk
15:55:28 <annevk> his style of flaming and not elaborating much might have put me off a little
15:55:40 <DanC> yes, there is that
15:56:41 <Dashiva> DanC: There's also the argument that most of the people using URL haven't even heard of the IETF :)
15:56:58 <DanC> but they depend on the proper working of lots of IETF products
15:57:18 <Dashiva> Working is independent from naming, though
15:57:36 <kliehm> trackbot, status?
15:57:51 <DanC> not entirely... confusing engineers working with both HTML and HTTP is a recipe for bugs
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15:58:12 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
15:58:14 <Zakim> +Sam
15:58:50 <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
15:58:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
15:58:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
15:58:55 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
15:58:55 <trackbot> Date: 20 August 2009
15:59:05 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
15:59:05 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:59:07 <Zakim> +Mike
15:59:26 <kliehm> present+ Martin_Kliehm
15:59:46 <Zakim> +DanC
15:59:47 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:59:59 <Zakim> +??P25
16:00:02 <rubys> agenda+ scribe 
16:00:13 <rubys> agenda?
16:00:19 <DanC> Zakim, clear agenda
16:00:19 <Zakim> agenda cleared
16:00:24 <rubys> agenda+ scribe 
16:00:32 <rubys> agenda+ open / pending review action items 
16:00:34 <Zakim> +??P27
16:00:45 <rubys> agenda+ raised (and nominated for closure) / Maciej Stachowiak 
16:00:45 <DanC> Zakim, ??P27 is SteveF
16:00:47 <Zakim> +SteveF; got it
16:00:51 <Zakim> +Matt
16:00:55 <rubys> agenda+ creation of an HTML Accessibility Task Force / Michael Cooper 
16:00:57 <DanC> Zakim, ??P25 is JoeW
16:00:57 <Zakim> +JoeW; got it
16:01:02 <annevk> Zakim, passcode?
16:01:02 <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
16:01:03 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #html-wg
16:01:19 <Zakim> +Laura
16:01:24 <Zakim> +Cooper
16:01:26 <rob> rob has joined #html-wg
16:01:37 <Zakim> +??P19
16:01:43 <annevk> Zakim, ??P19 is me
16:01:43 <Zakim> +annevk; got it
16:01:56 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sam, Mike, DanC, Cynthia_Shelly, JoeW, SteveF, Matt, Laura, Cooper, annevk
16:02:08 <Zakim> +Julian
16:02:12 <MikeSmith> Zakim, Mike is me
16:02:12 <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
16:02:25 <Zakim> + +1.510.495.aaaa
16:02:40 <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is RobinW
16:02:40 <Zakim> +RobinW; got it
16:03:27 <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
16:03:27 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sam
16:03:35 <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
16:03:35 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Cynthia_Shelly
16:03:50 <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
16:03:55 <Zakim> + +5454558aabb
16:04:07 <cyns> scribe: cyns
16:04:21 <DanC> Zakim, aabb is Shawn
16:04:21 <Zakim> +Shawn; got it
16:04:34 <rubys> Topic: Issue-56/Action-125 urls-webarch / Julian Reschke 
16:04:49 <DanC> action-125?
16:04:49 <trackbot> ACTION-125 -- Julian Reschke to coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues -- due 2009-08-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:04:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/125
16:04:50 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-125 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:05:00 <MikeSmith> scribenick: cyns 
16:05:00 <cyns> julian:  it think that can be closed.  action is done
16:05:13 <Zakim> +Adrian
16:05:15 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:05:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:05:26 <annevk> Zakim, cynthia_shelly is cyns
16:05:26 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
16:05:48 <cyns> connelly:  I have made a proposal.
16:05:55 <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1052.html
16:05:56 <pimpbot> Title: change "URL" to "web address" throughout the HTML 5 spec (Issue-56 urls-webarch) from Dan Connolly on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:06:01 <rob> Zakim, 1.510.495.aaaa is me
16:06:01 <Zakim> sorry, rob, I do not recognize a party named '1.510.495.aaaa'
16:06:18 <rubys> zakim, aaaa is rob
16:06:18 <Zakim> sorry, rubys, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:06:24 <cyns> sam:  how do we want to procede
16:07:05 <cyns> connelly:  editorial suggestion.  need to hear from the editor.  Someone can take an action to ping him.  also argument against, but not on list.
16:07:20 <cyns> sam:  you could do a bug report.  Ian responds to thme.
16:07:29 <cyns> connelly:  I sent to list, per charter.
16:07:50 <Laura> Laura has joined #html-wg
16:07:51 <cyns> sam:  editor may not take suggestion.  Does not close the issue.  I will get with Ian offline, leave status as is.
16:07:57 <DanC> close action-125
16:07:57 <cyns> close julian's action.
16:07:57 <trackbot> ACTION-125 Coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues closed
16:08:22 <MikeSmith> Zakim, aaaa is really RobEnnals
16:08:22 <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:08:36 <MikeSmith> Zakim, RobinW is really RobEnnals
16:08:36 <Zakim> +RobEnnals; got it
16:08:39 <rubys> Topic: Issue-4/Action-108 html-versioning / Larry Masinter 
16:09:07 <cyns> sam: Larry is not on the call.  I will get with him to get a new date.
16:09:12 <rubys> Topic: Issue-13/Action-86 handling-http-401-status / Julian Reschke  
16:09:17 <kliehm> kliehm has joined #html-wg
16:09:35 <webben> webben has joined #html-wg
16:09:35 <cyns> sam:  Julian, are you ok with closing?
16:09:37 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7387] New: small element should have same content model as a, ins, del <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0237.html>
16:10:00 <MikeSmith> kemp
16:10:03 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1053.html
16:10:05 <pimpbot> Title: Re: ISSUE-13: suggest closing from John Kemp on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:10:28 <cyns> Julian:  I just got mail from John Kent, he was against closing.  haven't read it yet.  want to leave open a few days.
16:10:35 <rubys> s/Kent/Kemp/
16:10:48 <Zakim> +Shepazu
16:10:54 <rubys> Topic: Issue-32/Action-128 table-summary / Cynthia Shelly 
16:11:08 <rubys> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pf-summary/spec.html
16:11:09 <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
16:11:33 <DanC> (folks that want drafts discussed in telcons will please mail pointers a day or 2 in advance)
16:12:21 <rubys> cyns: I created a draft which puts back the summary text from HTML 4, and to add examples from Matt May's book, and to add some suggestions
16:13:04 <rubys> cyns: I think this is a reasonable compromise, but I'm certain that there are others that don't, but I would appreciate feedback.
16:13:14 <rubys> joe: I think it is a good compromise
16:13:21 <rubys> danc: people will want to know why
16:13:48 <kliehm> kliehm has joined #html-wg
16:14:36 <rubys> action: cynthia to send draft to the list, due in three weeks
16:14:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Send draft to the list, due in three weeks [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2009-08-27].
16:14:59 <DanC> ACTION-136: draft regarding summary, in particular
16:14:59 <trackbot> ACTION-136 Send draft to the list, due in three weeks notes added
16:15:35 <rubys> note: action 136 is to be assigned to Matt May
16:15:39 <rubys> Topic: Issue-35/Action-114 aria-processing / Cynthia Shelly 
16:16:39 <kliehm> present+ Martin_Kliehm
16:16:51 <cyns> Steve Faulkner:  taking it to PF for further discussion on Monday.
16:17:03 <Zakim> -JoeW
16:17:15 <gavin> gavin has joined #html-wg
16:17:24 <rubys> action: stevenf to produce a matrix based on Henri's work, due: 2 weeks
16:17:24 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - stevenf
16:17:27 <cyns> Steve Faulkner:  action is to produce a matrix based (loosely) on what Henri has done.
16:17:42 <rubys> Topic: Issue-54/Action-103 doctype-legacy-compat / Julian Reschke 
16:17:55 <DanC> action-103?
16:17:55 <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Julian Reschke to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-08-20 -- OPEN
16:17:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
16:17:56 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:18:20 <cyns> Julian:  pinged [name].  He published a new draft for URI scheme a few days ago.  On track to be finished.
16:18:43 <cyns> there are no technical changes, correct?  No test cases you expect to change from pass to fail?
16:18:53 <rubys> s/[name]/J. Holsten/
16:19:07 <cyns> Julian:  no, but there is a reference to the HTML 5 spec.
16:19:38 <cyns> connelly:  maybe we should make this 'pending review' since we're waiting for people?
16:19:44 <cyns> sam:  ok with that with new date.
16:19:48 <cyns> Julian:  2 weeks.
16:19:49 <DanC> s/connelly/connolly/g
16:19:57 <rubys> Topic: Issue-74/Action-133 canvas-accessibility / Richard Schwerdtfeger 
16:19:57 <cyns> (sorry dan)
16:20:00 <DanC> np
16:20:07 <DanC> just use DanC if it's easier
16:20:32 <Stevef> cyns:meeting set up for friday, tomorrow
16:20:47 <Stevef> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AddedElementCanvas#head-a3a47c8de8c3207a1a646382ae8e4e131768e6dd
16:20:52 <pimpbot> Title: HTML/AddedElementCanvas - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
16:21:05 <Stevef> Expanding on the DOM concept with ARIA and support for Platform Accessibility APIs
16:21:27 <cyns> richard is actively seeking volunteers
16:21:36 <rubys> Topic: Issue-41/Action-97 decentralized-extensibility / Chris Wilson  
16:21:39 <Laura> Canvas on PF HTML Caucus Agenda, 14:00Z Friday 21 August http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2009Aug/0180.html
16:21:40 <pimpbot> Title: PF HTML Caucus Agenda, 14:00Z Friday 21 August from Janina Sajka on 2009-08-19 (wai-xtech@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:22:04 <cyns> Sam: agreed on current status.  any comments?
16:22:18 <rubys> next agendum
16:22:23 <rubys> next agendum
16:22:29 <cyns> Adrian:  trying to put together a proposal, looking at compat with what we have in IE.
16:22:34 <DanC> Zakim, close item 1
16:22:34 <Zakim> agendum 1, scribe, closed
16:22:35 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:22:36 <Zakim> 2. open / pending review action items [from rubys]
16:22:40 <rubys> next agendum
16:22:40 <DanC> Zakim, close item 2
16:22:43 <Zakim> agendum 2, open / pending review action items, closed
16:22:44 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:22:45 <Zakim> 3. raised (and nominated for closure) / Maciej Stachowiak [from rubys]
16:22:49 <DanC> Zakim, next item
16:22:49 <Zakim> agendum 3. "raised (and nominated for closure) / Maciej Stachowiak" taken up [from rubys]
16:23:15 <cyns> Sam:  list of issues proposed for closure.
16:23:26 <cyns> Sam:  I heard 10, 11, 13 to be left open?
16:23:46 <cyns> Sam:  10 is HTML 5 integration, 11 is default encoding, 13 is HB 401 status
16:24:41 <cyns> Sean:  Want to keep open 9, haven't looked at 6
16:24:41 <DanC> (do we have actions for 10, 11, and 13? that would be handy, though I suppose not critical)
16:25:02 <cyns> Doug: 6 is about syntax?
16:25:12 <cyns> Dan:  6 is about whether we do video and audio at all
16:25:19 <cyns> Doug:  close it then
16:25:19 <mjs> Julian said he is ok with closing 13
16:25:31 <annevk> ?ISSUE-10
16:25:34 <DanC> (I don't see "integration" in issue 10; that seems to be about syntax)
16:25:36 <DanC> issue-10?
16:25:36 <trackbot> ISSUE-10 -- how similar should SMIL and <video> attribute names be? -- OPEN
16:25:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/10
16:25:38 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-10 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:25:46 <Julian> mjs, there's new mail from John Kemp we need to digest
16:25:54 <cyns> Doug:  10 is about SMIL, Dick Bolterman wants to follow up on 9
16:25:54 <mjs> ISSUE-10, the action is for the SMIL WG to review
16:26:30 <cyns> Sean:  object supports param, which SMIL needs, video and audio don't have
16:27:14 <cyns> why does SMIL need param
16:27:26 <mjs> Julian: do you understand what his comments enough to propose a spec change?
16:27:36 <mjs> er, sorry, s/:/,/
16:27:52 <Julian> mjs, the mail just came in, so I didn't have time to process it; will do later today
16:28:05 <cyns> Sean:  SMIL has extensibility like object, needed for codecs, different codecs need different attributes
16:28:23 <cyns> [speaker] the way we expect it to work is that the browser does the mapping.
16:28:43 <cyns> Sean:  API isn't robust enough. For example, no way to switch captions on and off
16:28:54 <cyns> [speaker] right, browser should do that
16:29:16 <DanC> s/[speaker]/annevk/
16:29:17 <rubys> s/[speaker]/anne/g
16:29:18 <shepazu> s/[speaker]/anne:/
16:29:19 <cyns> Sean:  If you want author to be able to do it from script, need param 
16:29:41 <MikeSmith> this sounds like a discussion that also needs to get documented on the list
16:29:42 <cyns> Sean:  another example would be multiple audio streams
16:29:59 <cyns> Anne:  API is intentionallly small.  Send to list for discussion?
16:30:02 <cyns> Sean: ok
16:30:14 <cyns> Doug:  is this issue 10?
16:30:49 <MikeSmith> Zakim, Shawn is really SeanHayes
16:30:49 <Zakim> +SeanHayes; got it
16:31:16 <cyns> Sean:  keep 6, 9 and 10 open until some SMIL people are on the call.
16:31:35 <MikeSmith> action-135?
16:31:35 <trackbot> ACTION-135 -- Michael(tm) Smith to seek review from Dick Bulterman -- due 2009-08-27 -- OPEN
16:31:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/135
16:31:37 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-135 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:31:48 <cyns> Doug:  bring Dave Bolterman, SMIL chair, onto call after he's back from vacation.   
16:31:51 <mjs> SMIL people didn't object to closing 6 or 9
16:31:58 <cyns> Sean:  yes, he'd know how it's supposed to work.
16:32:18 <mjs> they only asked to keep 10 open pending their review
16:32:29 <shepazu> s/Dave Bolterman/Dick Bulterman/
16:32:39 <cyns> Connolly:  agree about 6 but maybe not 9
16:32:40 <DanC> I agree about 6, mjs, but not so sure about 9... heard some sentiment for keeping it open too
16:32:43 <webben> webben has joined #html-wg
16:32:57 <mjs> DanC, I don't see any replies to my email about issue-9
16:33:05 <shepazu> ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml
16:33:08 <mjs> DanC, did I miss something?
16:33:17 <DanC> yes, you missed discussion in this telcon
16:33:46 <rubys> people have asked to keep 6, 9, 11, 13, 37 open
16:33:57 <rubys> 10 too
16:34:08 <annevk> maybe we should not bothering closing issues
16:34:15 <annevk> seems to just cause a bunch of overhead...
16:34:25 <shepazu> SVG WG would like to keep open ISSUE-37 - html-svg-mathml, since there are open questions beyond just parsing
16:34:31 <Zakim> +Rich
16:34:31 <mjs> could you ask the people who object to closing issue-6 or issue-9 to send email please, or do so on their behalf?
16:34:45 <DanC> 6?
16:34:51 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-wg
16:34:55 <annevk> issue-6?
16:34:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-6 -- Pros and cons of keeping video and audio in the scope of the HTML working group -- RAISED
16:34:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/6
16:34:56 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-6 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:35:13 <mjs> I saw the objections on 10, 11, 13, and 37
16:35:46 <cyns> Dan:  why 6?
16:36:14 <cyns> Sean:  title is about whether to do it at all, but there's a bunch of stuff about whether to use object, which is still open.
16:36:23 <cyns> Doug:  rename?
16:36:30 <cyns> Sam:  make new one?
16:36:55 <cyns> Doug:  has lots of links and stuff, difficult to reproduce.  I'll remane it.
16:37:11 <cyns> Anne:  are you suggesting using object instead?
16:37:24 <mjs> is anyone going to make a concrete proposal to remove <video> and <audio> in favor of <object>?
16:37:24 <cyns> Sean: use same data model as object
16:37:32 <annevk> mjs, are you dialed in?
16:37:36 <mjs> no
16:37:39 <cyns> Doug:  remane to issue:  content model of video?
16:37:42 <mjs> I can dial in if necessary
16:37:52 <kliehm> s/remane/rename/
16:37:57 <annevk> mjs, what I'm hearing is changing the content model of <video> and <audio> to <object> so that it has <param> and can do SMIL like stuff
16:38:11 <annevk> mjs, apparently in SMIL you have to do some kind of per-codec API
16:38:18 <mjs> annevk, that would seem to be in scope of issue-10
16:38:21 <cyns> Dan:  that looses the orig issue
16:38:55 <mjs> annevk, issue-6 is about whether to have <video>/<audio> at all
16:39:06 <cyns> Sam:  create new issue for content model (missing params) with link to 6
16:39:11 <annevk> mjs, I just mentioned your comments
16:39:22 <cyns> Anne:  is content model covered under 10?
16:39:30 <cyns> Dan:  yes, like that idea
16:39:33 <cyns> Sam:  close 6?
16:39:44 <DanC> +1 close 6, track object stuff under 10
16:39:52 <cyns> Sean:  no objection, as long as we capture under 10
16:40:02 <DanC> issue-10: note discussion 20 Aug of <object param> interaction
16:40:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-10 how similar should SMIL and <video> attribute names be? notes added
16:40:11 <annevk> mjs, yay, one issue less
16:40:14 <rubys> keep 9, 10, 11, 13, 37 open?
16:40:31 <cyns> Sam: close all other issues?
16:40:54 <cyns> Sam:  no objections.  close all other issues from Maceij's list.
16:41:02 <rubys> next agendum
16:41:09 <cyns> Sam:  if you find an error, bring it up on the list.
16:41:19 <cyns> Sam:  Michael Cooper on the call?
16:41:20 <mjs> (I'd still like to hear the actual objection on issue-9 at some point)
16:41:23 <mjs> (yay less issues)
16:41:30 <MichaelC> HTML task force: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force
16:41:31 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Accessibility Task Force (at www.w3.org)
16:41:38 <cyns> Michael:  main concern last week was setting up yet another channel for communication.
16:41:39 <annevk> mjs, I guess 9/10 is the same thing
16:42:01 <rubys> annevk: i thought 9 was captions, and 10 was params
16:42:15 <cyns> Michael:  goal to have a place for focused discussion, joint place for discussion.
16:42:18 <mjs> 9 isn't about captions, at least that wasn't the original intent
16:42:21 <annevk> rubys, 9 says it is about synchronization
16:42:32 <mjs> 9 is about syncing 2 videos so they play in lockstep, and stuff like that
16:42:33 <cyns> Michale:  use HTML list with [a11y] prefix in subject
16:42:48 <DanC> close  ISSUE-5: button-type-radio ISSUE-12: test-case-file-names ISSUE-16: offline-applications-sql ISSUE-17: media-queries-tab-preprocessing ISSUE-20: table-headers ISSUE-26: accessibility/usability of HTML5 and W3C default stylesheets ISSUE-28: http-mime-override ISSUE-34: commonality ISSUE-36 - client-side-storage-sql ISSUE-38 - style-attr-syntax ISSUE-43: client-side image maps <- I'm pretty sure that's (mjs's suggestions - 9, 10, 11, 13, 37)
16:42:49 <mjs> that was why cwilso originally raised it
16:43:05 <cyns> Michael:  on IRC use [???]
16:43:17 <MichaelC> s/[???]/#pf-html
16:43:17 <annevk> s/[???]/#pf-html/
16:43:46 <mjs> DanC, looks right to me
16:44:43 <cyns> cyns: concern about using public HTML list.  It's intimidating for many people to post there, so some communication is happening on private channels.
16:45:05 <Laura> Current W3C HTML WG Email Lists: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/EmailLists
16:45:08 <pimpbot> Title: HTML/EmailLists - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
16:45:30 <cyns> Doug:  Having specialized sub lists can reduce traffic, make people feel safer to post.
16:45:50 <richardschwerdtfe> q?
16:45:51 <cyns> Anne:  I don't like overhead of having to know which list to pick.
16:46:48 <cyns> Doug:  Anne, I understand why you say this, but you're a person who is doing this full time.  For you, not an issue to sort through all the mails.  For people who are jsut trying to participate in a very part time way (15-20% of their time, or less), its easier to manage, and worth the overhead.
16:46:55 <cyns> Anne:  not really convinced.
16:47:14 <cyns> Doug:  I've heard 5 other people chime in.
16:47:17 <Laura> wai-xtech mailing list is for ensuring accessibility considerations are taken into account in all specifications produced by the W3C
16:47:18 <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/EmailLists#head-54b24a97d673114ab597cae2d049a31f8c0c28cc
16:47:21 <pimpbot> Title: HTML/EmailLists - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
16:47:32 <cyns> Anne:  I heard some desire for another list for PF, and ... I don't know.
16:48:02 <cyns> Rich:  I follow several other lists.  but, I have 1500 posts over the last week from HTML.  A separate list will make it easier for me.
16:48:19 <hober> Most mail clients allow you to filter mail with [a11y] separately, so it shouldn't be an issue to have it all on public-html
16:48:34 <cyns> Anne:  is it really needed?  I ahven't seen the private lists.  I don't think it's a good idea, but if there are more people who think it is, ok, do it.
16:48:54 <Laura> Why not use both wai-xtech and public-html ?
16:49:06 <cyns> Anne:  assume most of the "bad idea" people are not on the call.
16:49:34 <cyns> Sam:  take to the list.  Though that's a problem, since the people asking for this are not able to keep up with that list.
16:49:44 <cyns> [speaker] why not do a poll?
16:49:49 <cyns> Sam:  objections to a poll?
16:50:00 <cyns> Sam:  no objections.  I'll set up a poll.
16:50:17 <hober> is the poll "should we have this TF at all?" or "we're having this TF, where should it conduct its business?"
16:50:33 <cyns> Michael:  could we approve the task force now, and work out the communication channel later?
16:51:09 <cyns> Dan:  we're supposed to not make decisions without giving people time to partcipate asynchronously (in HTML)
16:51:27 <cyns> [speaker} can the task force work it out for themselves?
16:51:53 <annevk> s/[speaker}/anne:/
16:51:53 <cyns> Michael:  start by using html or xtech, and figure out what list to use there.
16:52:22 <kliehm> kliehm has joined #html-wg
16:52:33 <cyns> Sam:  We've had a proposal to create HTML Accessiblity Task Force.  Only objections we've heard were to the communications channel.  Those issues resolved.
16:52:38 <Zakim> -Rich
16:52:45 <cyns> Dan:  Dave Singer objected to the whole idea last week.
16:52:54 <cyns> Sam: anyone remember his objection?
16:52:57 <mjs> I also objected to the whole idea last week
16:53:01 <kliehm> kliehm has joined #html-wg
16:53:05 <cyns> Dan:  IP and...
16:53:09 <hober> I'm not crazy about the idea
16:53:22 <DanC> "dsinger: and which IPR realm would it work under? [not sure I scribed that right]" -- http://www.w3.org/2009/08/13-html-wg-minutes.html#item05
16:53:22 <annevk> mjs, what's the objection?
16:53:23 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 13 Aug 2009 (at www.w3.org)
16:53:25 <Laura> Maybe a question on the  poll to ask people if they are interested in participation? (6 to 8 hours per month)
16:53:34 <DanC> "dsinger: there are also governance issues... would the TF be advisory? it couldn't make binding decisions because it's not the actual WG"
16:53:34 <Laura> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force#participation
16:53:36 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Accessibility Task Force (at www.w3.org)
16:53:37 <cyns> Michael:  I don't remember him saying that, but it's covered under charters for respective groups
16:53:49 <rubys> next agendum
16:53:53 <cyns> Sam:  will follow up with people objecting, to make sure we've ok.
16:53:57 <mjs> and I don't think it's been proposed on public-html at all, so we don't know if non-phone participants have objections
16:54:34 <cyns> Sam:  need to follow up, no decision on task force.
16:54:35 <Zakim> +Rich
16:54:57 <cyns> Sam: will follow up with Maceij.  It has been in two meeting notices on the announce list.
16:54:59 <mjs> annevk, same as Dave Singer's + need to make sure information gets back to the full HTML WG (using public-html would address the last of these)
16:55:18 <cyns> Michael:  Sorry I didn't think to send it to HTML Public list, not just announce list.
16:55:29 <Zakim> -annevk
16:55:35 <cyns> Michael:  communication style list.
16:55:49 <cyns> Sam:  minutes go to public list.
16:56:08 <cyns> Sam:  at the end of agenda.  other issues?
16:56:29 <mjs> I think the suggestion should go to public-html with a clearly identifiable subject line (much as DanC and rubys suggested for closing issues)
16:56:47 <cyns> Doug:  Since I'm on the phone... What's the best way to coordinate on SVG issues.  What does the HTML group need SVG group to do?  What can I take back to SVG?  What should we be doing to drive integration issues.
16:57:28 <mjs> Doug, see my reply to Cameron - SVG WG should decide what things are specific issues, on top of what I already filed as bugs
16:57:38 <cyns> Doug:  For example, foreign object allows use of HTML content.  Deliberately left it vaugue, because we didn't think it our place to describe what HTML should do.  While we don't want to step on toes, we don't want it to fall through the cracks.
16:57:50 <mjs> Doug, and decide whether bugzilla bugs or ISSUEs should be filed
16:57:54 <cyns> Sam:  So, you have cross-group issues that haven't been sent to list?
16:58:12 <cyns> Sam:  mailing list, bug reports, or spec text
16:58:17 <mjs> shepazu, I think what HTML does in foreignObject is mainly a CSS/SVG integration issue
16:58:29 <cyns> Doug:  don't know if these issues should be handled by SVG or HTML
16:58:31 <mjs> (same as what <svg> in HTML does layout-wise)
16:58:32 <cyns> Sam:  send to list.
16:58:43 <Zakim> -Rich
16:58:44 <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
16:58:45 <Zakim> -Sam
16:58:45 <Zakim> -SteveF
16:58:47 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:58:47 <Zakim> -Matt
16:58:48 <Zakim> -RobEnnals
16:58:49 <Zakim> -Julian
16:58:49 <cyns> Sam:  meeting ajourned. 
16:58:50 <Zakim> -SeanHayes
16:58:55 <Zakim> -Shepazu
16:58:55 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:58:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:58:56 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Aug 2009 (at www.w3.org)
16:58:57 <Zakim> -Adrian
16:59:00 <Zakim> -Laura
16:59:05 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
16:59:05 <Zakim> MikeSmith is being disconnected
16:59:06 <Zakim> -MikeSmith
16:59:06 <Zakim> -cyns
16:59:29 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:59:39 <Zakim> -DanC
16:59:40 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
16:59:41 <Zakim> Attendees were Sam, DanC, SteveF, Matt, JoeW, Laura, Cooper, annevk, Julian, MikeSmith, +1.510.495.aaaa, Radhika_Roy, +5454558aabb, Adrian, cyns, RobEnnals, Shepazu, SeanHayes,
16:59:43 <Zakim> ... Rich
17:00:21 <shepazu> mjs: will do
17:00:45 <mjs> shepazu: I'm expecting Cameron will follow up but you should feel free to do so as well
17:00:52 <shepazu> k
17:01:00 <mjs> shepazu: I agree that layout and hit testing integration should be defined, in both directions, but I think it's a CSS issue
17:01:38 <kliehm> present+Martin_Kliehm
17:02:04 <mjs> shepazu: HTML layout and hit testing is essentially defined by CSS, and is the same as for generic XML styled with CSS
17:02:17 <DanC> action-86 due next week
17:02:17 <trackbot> ACTION-86 Review Thomas Broyer's IETF ID to see if we can postpone ISSUE-13 due date now next week
17:02:21 <kliehm> present +Martin_Kliehm
17:02:31 <shepazu> mjs: yes, agreed, it's an issue for HTML, SVG, and CSS WGs... which makes it thorny to coordinate on
17:02:50 <mjs> shepazu: I don't think HTML WG needs to be involved at all
17:02:55 <mjs> (except maybe in advisory capacity)
17:03:18 <DanC> ACTION-136 due 10 Sep
17:03:18 <trackbot> ACTION-136 Send draft to the list, due in three weeks due date now 10 Sep
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17:04:32 <shepazu> mjs: so, you think the HTML WG would be cool with the SVG making specific wording in our specs to fill in cracks (subject to public review, of course)?
17:05:02 <mjs> shepazu: either SVG WG or CSS WG should do it, preferably in coordination
17:05:31 <mjs> it's not specifically about HTML, it's about anything subject to CSS layout
17:06:09 <mjs> I will close the issues to be closed when I get to the office
17:06:54 <shepazu> I suspect there will be things related to HTML and not to layout... I guess we'll address them on a case-by-case basis
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17:07:18 <mjs> that's totally possible - those should be SVG/HTML issues
17:07:46 <mjs> however, layout of <svg> inside HTML content, HTML inside <svg:foreignObject>, and hit testing of mixed HTML/SVG are all really SVG/CSS issues
17:08:52 <mjs> because CSS is the place that defines HTML layout and hit testing (and the issues are the same for any other language using CSS layout, even generic XML styled with CSS)
17:09:53 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7386] SharedWorkerGlobalScope <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0239.html> 4** [Bug 7387] small element should have same content model as a, ins, del <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0238.html>
17:10:59 <shepazu> mjs: what about HTML being zoomed to fill the viewport, when used in a <foreignObject> in an SVG with a smallish viewBox... currently, it looks pretty ugly, especially form controls... would that also be a layout/presentation thing?
17:11:49 <mjs> shepazu: mostly it's a layout thing, form control appearance (including when zoomed) is sort of not specified anywhere though
17:12:04 <mjs> shepazu: so if form controls look ugly when zoomed, it's basically a quality-of-implementation bug
17:12:35 <mjs> shepazu: FWIW we plan to fix it in Safari so zoomed form controls look good - besides SVG we need to do it for CSS transforms and for our full-page zoom feature
17:12:51 <mjs> we know they can look broken in some cases right now
17:14:19 <shepazu> mjs: you think it would be reasonable for the SVG spec to say something along the lines of "to preserve the appearance of foreign content when zoomed, implementations should rasterize the presentations at a later stage than determining the viewport" or something advisory like that?
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17:15:32 <mjs> shepazu: I'm not really sure what that means exactly
17:15:41 <shepazu> mjs: actually, WebKit does a pretty good job, though there are serious issues with where you place the search-string highlights and input cursor and such... Opera (surprisingly) is the one that needs the most work right now, I think
17:16:17 <shepazu> mjs: I'll work up some real text and run it by you sometime
17:16:36 <mjs> shepazu: I think it basically comes down to quality-of-implementation bugs, but if CSS Transforms imposes any specific requirements, then it should probably say CSS content affected by an SVG transform should behave the same
17:16:49 <mjs> that or SVG could contain matching requirements
17:17:01 <shepazu> right
17:17:29 <shepazu> CSS Transforms spec seems to be stalled a bit, last I checked... any progress there?
17:18:03 <mjs> I don't know of there being any problems with it
17:19:05 <mjs> I think the bottom line on form controls is this: as far as the specs are concerned (for now anyway), rendering of form controls is completely 100% up to the implementation, so that makes it hard to define a "don't look ugly when zoomed" requirement
17:19:08 <shepazu> maybe I just need to track it better
17:19:37 <shepazu> heh
17:19:51 <mjs> Gecko and WebKit have experimental implementations of 2D transforms and WebKit now also has 3D transforms
17:20:58 <shepazu> mjs: yup... but the spec isn't moving forward
17:21:13 <mjs> I don't know what you mean by "moving forward" in this case
17:21:18 <mjs> like, going to Last Call?
17:21:25 <mjs> (I don't think it needs a lot of material changes)
17:21:30 <shepazu> I heard a complaint about that recently on some mailing list outside w3c
17:21:41 <shepazu> mjs: yeah, like moving on the Rec Track
17:22:09 <shepazu> I guess I should bug the CSS WG about this
17:22:11 <mjs> I can ask the folks at Apple involved in it
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17:40:00 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7389] New: Shouldn't "formnoValidate" be "formNoValidate"? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0240.html>
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17:48:18 <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-08-20 from Sam Ruby on 2009-08-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from July to September 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
17:56:05 <pimpbot> planet: HTML 5: what’s hot, what’s not <11http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/html-5-whats-hot-whats-not/>
17:58:45 <mjs> rubys1: I think it would help if you put highlights in the subject line or at the top of the email
17:59:54 <mjs> rubys1: like an executive summary version of the agenda before the standard "how to dial in" template
18:00:47 <mjs> rubys1: as it is, when I look at that message, I have to scroll way down before I see content that isn't just identical every week
18:02:23 <pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
18:06:40 <mjs> the tracker agenda view doesn't seem to match the email agenda very well
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20:57:15 <rubys> hsivonen and/or Hixie: why is my page not validating?  http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://intertwingly.net/blog/
20:57:16 <pimpbot> Title: (X)HTML5 validation results for http://intertwingly.net/blog/ (at html5.validator.nu)
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21:05:54 <mjs_> rubys: the error seems clear - presumably either a genuine SVG issue or a bug in the validator schema
21:09:47 <rubys> duh, I can read the message.  But it is a valid use of xlink that actually does something useful that either the spec or the validator doesn't support.
21:10:52 <rubys> Interesting: chrome doesn't do anything with the title, but firefox does.
21:12:11 <mjs> I don't think WebKit knows about xlink:title
21:12:20 <rubys> mjs, since you are here; my blog is affected by https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14240
21:12:22 <pimpbot> Title: Bug 14240 Opacity affects clipping of circles (at bugs.webkit.org)
21:13:05 <mjs> Gecko has a full XLink implementation which they had to hack up a little to work with the different SVG semantics for some xlink attributes
21:13:06 <rubys> the intertwingly knot in the lower right is meant to be opacity: 0.3, but when I do that with webkit based browsers, it gets clipped oddly.
21:14:48 <rubys> xlink:title is mentioned in the HTML5 draft, so my thoughts at the moment are on validator bug.
21:14:50 <mjs> rubys: I think xlink:title is only allowed on <a> in SVG, per the schema
21:16:48 <mjs> actually, that's slightly wrong, I think anything in SVG that allows xlink:href also allows xlink:title, but <path> does not allow any of the XLink attributes
21:17:07 <mjs> relevant SVG schema chunk here: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#PathElement
21:17:08 <pimpbot> Title: Paths - SVG 1.1 - 20030114 (at www.w3.org)
21:20:48 <mjs> rubys: what I'm seeing currently on your blog page is that the watermark is present but not faded in Safari
21:20:53 <mjs> rubys: did you add a workaround?
21:21:21 <rubys>   opacity: 0.3;   -webkit-opacity: 1; /* https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14240 */
21:21:23 <pimpbot> Title: Bug 14240 Opacity affects clipping of circles (at bugs.webkit.org)
21:21:32 <rubys> that's in http://intertwingly.net/css/blogx.css
21:23:37 <mjs> rubys: would you mind posting a test case somewhere that doesn't have a WebKit workaround?
21:25:55 <mjs> at the moment I don't see the bug if I hack the opacity back to 0.3 with the Web Inspector
21:27:17 <mjs> rubys: it may have been fixed since you commented in the bug
21:27:45 <rubys> just a sec, I'll simply undo the hack
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21:39:37 <rubys> sorry, had a phone call.  Removed the hack, and it now works with Chrome 3.0.198.1 on Ubuntu with no clipping issues.
21:42:00 <mjs> seems to work on Safari 4.0.3 as well
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21:57:05 <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 canvas with Processing vs. Pure Javascript <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1308703/html5-canvas-with-processing-vs-pure-javascript>
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22:41:17 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7389] Shouldn't "formnoValidate" be "formNoValidate"? <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0242.html> 4** [Bug 7062] replace terms "CDATA element" and "RCDATA element" with... something better <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0241.html>
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