12:46:15 RRSAgent has joined #swxg 12:46:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-swxg-irc 12:48:11 hhalpin has changed the topic to: "Social Web XG Meeting August 19th" 12:50:02 Zakim, what's the conference code? 12:50:02 sorry, hhalpin, I don't know what conference this is 12:50:44 rreck has joined #SWXG 12:52:52 aloha 12:53:19 cperey has joined #swxg 12:53:26 Rob has joined #swxg 12:53:27 hi 12:53:35 hi 12:55:06 tpa has joined #swxg 12:55:38 tpa has joined #swxg 12:55:44 bblfish has joined #swxg 12:56:06 melvster has joined #swxg 12:57:33 7994, right? 12:57:46 hi 12:57:53 hi all 12:57:59 yes, it spells SWXG on the phone 12:58:07 I'm in Amsterdam now :-) 12:58:08 hi :) 12:58:13 Well, nobody else seemed to be there, so I've hung up. 12:58:38 i did the same 12:59:18 i just joined again but didnt see an indication of it in the chat channel 12:59:50 Zakim, this is SWXG 12:59:50 ok, tinkster; that matches INC_SWXG()9:00AM 13:00:12 +??P14 13:00:14 + +46.1.08.01.aabb 13:00:32 + +1.785.583.aacc 13:00:32 oshani has joined #swxg 13:00:39 one is me :) 13:00:42 and me 13:00:43 +??P18 13:00:51 Zakim, ??P18 is me 13:00:51 +AlexPassant; got it 13:00:59 ill call in again 13:01:03 + +63.59.2.aadd 13:01:05 -??P9 13:01:10 Zakim, ??P14 is me 13:01:10 +melvster; got it 13:01:17 + +1.617.848.aaee 13:01:27 +??P9 13:01:28 +??P21 13:01:30 Zakim, who is on the phone? 13:01:30 On the phone I see +1.505.982.aaaa, melvster, +46.1.08.01.aabb, +1.785.583.aacc, AlexPassant, +63.59.2.aadd, +1.617.848.aaee, ??P9, ??P21 13:01:33 zakim +1.617.848.aaee is me 13:01:39 Zakim, who's making noise? 13:01:41 Zakim, aadd is me 13:01:41 +tpa; got it 13:01:45 hajons has joined #swxg 13:01:49 hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P9 (59%), +1.505.982.aaaa (9%), ??P21 (10%) 13:01:53 one is me too. 13:01:59 Zakim, ??P9 is hhalpin 13:01:59 +hhalpin; got it 13:02:08 zakim ??P21 is me 13:02:11 how do I claim a number? 13:02:14 +FabGandon 13:02:16 zakim, ??P21 is me 13:02:16 +rreck; got it 13:02:16 1. Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-08-19T13:00-15:00Z 13:02:19 - +1.785.583.aacc 13:02:40 + +1.785.583.aaff 13:02:41 zakim, +1.617.848.aaee is me 13:02:41 +cperey; got it 13:02:58 +MIT531 13:03:00 chair: hhalpin 13:03:01 Zakim, +1.785.583.aaff might be me 13:03:01 I don't understand '+1.785.583.aaff might be me', tinkster 13:03:14 Zakim, +1.785.583.aaff is me 13:03:14 +tinkster; got it 13:03:19 (I think) 13:04:49 +??P0 13:04:51 + +1.314.683.aagg 13:04:57 Zakim, MIT531 is NathanEagle 13:04:57 sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'MIT531' 13:04:58 zakim, ??P0 is danbri 13:04:58 +danbri; got it 13:05:10 # chair: hhalpin 13:05:17 chair: hhalpin 13:05:26 I don't mind. 13:05:28 :-) 13:05:48 raphael has joined #swxg 13:06:03 ok 13:06:11 scribe: FabGandon 13:06:23 Rob has joined #swxg 13:06:29 regrets: Mischa, PeterF 13:06:35 Zakim, who's on the phone? 13:06:36 On the phone I see +1.505.982.aaaa, melvster, +46.1.08.01.aabb, AlexPassant, tpa, cperey, hhalpin, rreck, FabGandon, tinkster, oshani, danbri, +1.314.683.aagg 13:06:43 PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 29th July 2009 as a true record 13:06:49 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Aug/0006.html 13:06:50 +1 approve minutes 13:06:51 +1 13:06:52 +1 13:06:55 +1 13:06:57 PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. Aug 26th 13:06:58 +1 13:07:06 RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 29th July 2009 as a true record 13:07:16 +1 13:07:16 +1 weekly meetings 13:07:22 RESOLVED: meet again Wed. Aug 26th 13:07:31 hhalpin: we are back on weekly meetings. 13:07:41 + +1.781.272.aahh 13:07:48 2. General Organization and Task Forces 13:07:50 MacTed has joined #swxg 13:07:55 [DONE] ACTION: Mischa to write up Soren and Jonathan's findings from last telecon for final report. 13:07:58 ... current time may be excluding people of west coast 13:08:04 [CONTINUES] ACTION: DKA to summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread knowledge of these efforts among W3C members 13:08:09 ... for the agenda of next meeting 13:08:13 [CONTINUES] ACTION: hhalpin to summarize metrics and gypsii talk. 13:08:24 [DONE] ACTION: danbri circulate wookie proposal to the xg 13:08:34 [CONTINUES] ACTION:Mischa to describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG. 13:08:34 lkagal has joined #swxg 13:08:40 [CONTINUES] ACTION: hhalpin to have http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous version' link to the current one 13:08:41 Zakim, + +1.781.272.aahh is me 13:08:41 I don't understand '+ +1.781.272.aahh is me', bblfish 13:08:52 +OpenLink_Software 13:08:53 [CONTINUES] ACTION:hhalpin take action to clean up the web-page and make it less intimidating to those who aren't members 13:09:08 Zakim, +1.781.272.aahh is me 13:09:08 +bblfish; got it 13:09:08 Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed 13:09:09 +MacTed; got it 13:09:21 Zakim, mute me 13:09:21 MacTed should now be muted 13:09:23 [DONE] ACTION: Melvster to draft columns=network rows=tech matrix for tech report 13:09:25 danbri: wookie new apache project 13:09:58 .... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Aug/0051.html 13:10:22 ... "Wookie is a Java server application that allows you to upload and deploy widgets for your applications. Wookie is based on the W3C Widgets specification, but widgets can also be included that use extended APIs such as Google Wave Gadgets and OpenSocial." 13:10:34 +1 to DanBri's wookie+ opera+widget proposal 13:10:40 Zakim, who's making noise? 13:10:45 yep 13:10:51 hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: danbri (35%) 13:10:52 Adam has joined #swxg 13:10:54 http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tL_pHzU2JRih72ULVgD0xuQ&output=html 13:11:31 hhalpin : melvin went through the use cases, deduced the functionalities, 13:11:37 yes 13:11:38 yes 13:12:13 +karl 13:13:29 melvster : put up a template for identifying what can be done with existing frameworks 13:13:38 Yes/Partial/No is good. "Planned" might be a good additional value? 13:13:44 hhalpin : so many possible use cases 13:13:46 i think its helpful to keep the number, but each have an owner 13:13:59 +1 with Ron's recommendation 13:14:05 Zakim, unmute me 13:14:05 MacTed should no longer be muted 13:14:13 7.7 was my user story, so I can be made its champion. 13:14:15 .... some use cases are very technical other not, there are a lot of differences 13:14:59 +1 common level of abstraction 13:15:09 ... should we use a questionnaire to compare them and get a feeling of what people think about 13:16:33 the distinction is between the feature and the "how" it is implemented 13:16:55 but you don't want to make the use case/stories too complex 13:17:01 feature is useful, i think we are not in a position to recommend the how 13:17:02 quite tricky! 13:17:02 so you have to keep them simple 13:17:18 ted : you would need single sign on to to some oif these things 13:17:31 we could say, i think it might be done using.. 13:17:32 (it might need to be in text). 13:17:40 ... what have been implented that allows this use cases ? 13:17:51 how the feature is implemented 13:18:40 it's a third dimension? 13:18:57 henry : an additional problem is how there are implemented 13:19:06 plus, as technology changes it would deprecate our how to analysis, whereas the feature isnt deprecated 13:19:17 ... we may need an additional matrix / set of criteria 13:19:33 aha 13:19:39 to decompose the use case in to the parts that make it up? 13:19:46 + +1.631.265.aaii 13:19:51 yes, I think we're heading into decomposition of use-case. 13:20:27 well it's all interesting 13:20:31 i think #1 each gets a champion 13:20:34 and a lot of work 13:20:34 there are some use cases that are way too big 13:20:41 agreed bblfish. 13:20:43 hhalpin : instead of a questionnaire should we have 4 people looking at the use cases ? 13:20:47 +1 champions call 13:20:50 So, let's get champions. 13:20:59 ok, I am interested in this project. 13:21:28 +1 for the questionnaire to select use cases 13:21:30 does that make sense? 13:21:33 so we have micro groups for each use cases 13:21:38 makes sense 13:21:39 yes, makes sense 13:21:43 -1 dropping usecases that have champions 13:21:45 pair programming on use cases 13:21:54 hhalpin: vote on each use case and the one with enough champions will be kept and detailed. 13:22:05 +1 drop duplicates 13:22:12 ok... 13:22:15 ted: don't drop any of them unless they are duplicates. 13:22:42 questionaire sounds useful yep 13:22:46 or unless it doesnt have a champion 13:22:47 but we should simplify. 13:22:54 ACTION: hhalpin to make WBS for use-cases champions 13:22:54 Created ACTION-66 - Make WBS for use-cases champions [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-08-26]. 13:23:05 Zakim, mute me 13:23:05 MacTed should now be muted 13:23:11 3. User Stories 13:23:14 remember that once we have been through the process, there could be maintenance 13:23:21 [CONTINUES] ACTION: adam to write up the boeing use case for enterprise social networks 13:23:30 [CONTINUES] ACTION:hhalpin to write up the social network data exchange story 13:23:46 [CONTINUES] ACTION: tpa to look for similar use cases list to expand ours 13:23:55 [CONTINUES] ACTION: tinkster to add user story along lines of... if you enable import of contacts from other sites, then it lowers the barrier to entry for new people signing up at your site, hence get more users, hence get more advertising revenue. 13:24:07 [DONE] ACTION: danbri to write up orkut/i18n/"looking for" issue 13:24:15 danbri: other invited guesses 13:24:24 [CONTINUES] ACTION: rreck to write up use case based on shill case 13:24:33 hhalpin: open micro-bloging would be interesting to 13:24:36 [CONTINUES] ACTION: rreck to send some thoughts on new template to be sent out to listserv. 13:25:08 [CONTINUES] ACTION: danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets 13:25:16 [CONTINUES] ACTION: danbri and karl to contact Evan of identi.ca over OpenMicroblogging and W3C. 13:25:35 wiki page of invited guesses : http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuestSummaries 13:25:50 s/guesses/guests 13:25:51 [CONTINUES] ACTION:Renato and DanBri and hhalpin to schedule DataPortability.org/XMPP 13:26:06 5. Guest Speaker: Nathan Eagle 13:26:16 on my todo list then: xmpp, identi.ca, dataportability, widgets, microformats / ben ward 13:26:29 5. Guest Speaker: Nathan Eagle 13:27:13 Nathan Eagle was brought to our attention by Hakan. 13:27:49 algorithms trained on mobile phone date 13:28:00 nathan : http://web.media.mit.edu/~nathan/bio.html 13:29:34 hhalpin: how hard to get the data from the phones ? 13:29:44 Reality-mining installed invisible spy phone on mobile phone 13:29:49 and had to get informed consent. 13:30:14 Nathan : we used a logger starting on boot, logging everything, invisible for the user, 13:30:56 ... hard to scale the installation of an app on every handset 13:31:33 scale - the operators have all this data, can get this kinda data without installing spyware 13:31:52 ... you need to have super computer to study the graph you obtain 13:32:52 +q 13:33:07 +q 13:33:27 it would be neat if private privacy based companies had the data instead of the telecos 13:33:39 hhalpin: we are also interested in the fact you have access in this sort of data 13:33:42 thereby usurping telecos 13:33:55 impossible to get the data without the telcos. 13:34:00 ... how hard for a mobile phone company to access these telco data ? 13:34:08 im sure i could have the app send me the data 13:34:20 nathan: telco view these data as their property. 13:34:28 ack Christine 13:34:50 ... these data are viewed more and more valuable and thus the grip is tightening 13:35:23 an new OBAMA initiative! 13:35:35 cperey : the telco are also concerned about regulations. 13:36:18 nathan : telco are also scared of getting burned by the press 13:37:08 ... only governments can force them to release the data. 13:37:50 individuals should own their data we all agree but we have like few cards to play 13:38:07 ... the only use for this data right now is for juridical action 13:38:12 if we vote with our dollar we would have no where to turn 13:38:15 ack hajons 13:38:33 -q 13:39:03 hajons: different cases in different countries. 13:39:37 ... hard to explain to the user what kind of data we need and why 13:40:05 I don't understand, on the iPhone every app can get access to geo location data 13:40:08 imagine if you own the data and someone else holds it for you, you will still be at their mercy 13:40:08 ... very tricky area and regional problem. 13:40:27 so it should be real easy to create a service to post that info somewhere 13:41:17 nathan: PR is still a big deal in china, but users' reaction is different from one region to another 13:41:27 laptop manufactures put chips in equipment that US govt doesnt like 13:41:48 CDR the format operators keep the telephone info in 13:41:51 interested in this idea that a little app could be put on by installed that provides richer data, i.e. by handset manufacturers apple 13:41:58 for instance Lenovo isnt allowed in certain places 13:42:02 ... a mobile phone company can install app hich produce much interesting data than the logs of operators. 13:42:37 also interested in this fact that the location isn't in CDR unless a call is made... 13:42:43 hhalpin: did you deal with the reality of the variety of handsets 13:43:01 nathan : no we worked only with a set of donated nokia 13:43:33 ...? problem on the iPhone because of the background apps problem (?) 13:43:52 iphone background apps problem - apps running in the background effectively sleep. 13:44:00 ... can't do any processing. 13:44:28 http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/ 13:45:12 hhalpin: geolocation APIs, what needs to be standardized for contextual data in general? 13:45:28 ... did you have access to contact books? 13:46:05 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/08/14/0900282106.abstract 13:46:07 nathan: we show how top link behaviour and real network of friends 13:46:20 Full article: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/08/14/0900282106.full.pdf+html 13:46:44 also : http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2009/817/1 13:46:56 (v interesting) 13:47:19 extract : Just by analyzing the calling patterns, the researchers could accurately label two people as friends or nonfriends more than 95% of the time. 13:47:43 hhalpin: how to validate friendship 13:48:00 i wonder if you could infer fellow terrorist cell members? i wonder who might fund that analysis. 13:48:00 nathan: no way around to ask people to get ground truth 13:48:22 .. then use it on the 4 billion data set 13:48:38 hhalpin: where did you get the data? 13:48:39 nonfriends = acquaintances who would not describe themselves as friends (i.e. colleagues, business contacts, etc). Not necessarily enemies. 13:49:10 nathan: orginal study reality mining at MIT 5 year ago 13:50:04 hhalpin: how can I choose to grant to a company the acces to my location/calls/etc. and make sure the other can't? 13:50:24 .. what kind of rich data can you get from mobile phones. 13:50:25 so, the telcos get locations when calls are made. 13:50:29 but what else is out there? 13:50:48 nathan: we didn't really use that much data from phone calls 13:50:55 +q 13:50:56 ... used bluetooth scanning 13:51:11 +1 on bluetooth 13:51:13 Bluetooth range is about 10m. 13:51:44 category of mobile social network: proximity communities 13:51:48 ... to evaluate proximity of people in context (e.g. always clos at 3am sunday morning) 13:51:48 so proximity data gathered via bluetooth is the most important. 13:52:27 ... other expermient with 10 000 bluetooth+GPS+ microphone on every ten minutes for some sec 13:52:43 s/ten minutes/ten seconds/ 13:52:51 ... use the sampling to detect their context, the media they consume, etc. 13:52:54 what is the name of this study? 13:53:08 RRSAgent, pointer? 13:53:08 See http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-swxg-irc#T13-53-08 13:53:28 RRSAgent, make minutes public 13:53:28 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', karl. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:53:30 ... over 85% of the random sample agreed to do it 13:53:36 RRSAgent, make log public 13:54:00 hhalpin: needed with a special phone? 13:54:16 ack hajons 13:54:16 nathan: need the right kind of phone 13:54:51 I think newer versions of iPhone os will (already does?) allow background apps 13:55:04 hajons: one subject of the group is to define ontology to describe context 13:56:01 nathan: I work with raw sensor data 13:56:14 .. not an expert on sharing context 13:56:33 ... having a common vocabulary would make sense 13:57:03 "behaviour signatures ... eg dinner with a person on a regular basis ... high likelyhood will report as a friend, ... true in africa, india, finland ... universal rules about our species" 13:57:04 ... there seems to be an overlap between the different experiments done around the world 13:57:10 bblfish, quite possibly. How else is one supposed to run an HTTP server on an iPhone? ;-) 13:57:33 this is a great discussion 13:57:46 ... there could be some universal way to describe generic context e.g. having diner -> friend 13:58:29 hhalpin: you worked in very different places and found that there are some similarities. 13:58:39 -cperey 13:58:51 i think its time i turn my phone off when im not using it. 13:59:01 So, it's in the PNAS paper this behavioral signature. 13:59:18 thanks so much for presenting to us 13:59:36 +1 13:59:51 +1 13:59:57 +1 14:00:04 wonderful information 14:00:15 hhalpin: what is the best paper? 14:00:15 100 is PNAS paper 14:00:22 nathan: IEEE paper 14:00:34 IEE paper is 10,000 mobile ambient experiment 14:00:47 is IEEE available? 14:00:55 yes please send the draft 14:01:09 yes please send draft too :-) 14:01:14 for the record, the draft must not be public 14:01:20 IEEE paper ? http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=4580547 14:01:27 +1 14:01:35 +1 for book draft 14:02:27 hhalpin: we are interested in helping researchers to share data. Can you share the data? 14:02:53 nathan: I have never seen "sharing agreement" work to my satisfaction. 14:03:01 Sensor data from Noka: http://www.sensorplanet.org/ 14:03:23 Nokia: simple concerns - http://alpha.nokoscope.com/eb2/login 14:03:36 ... attempts never really materialized because of privacy implications 14:03:43 we cant even determine how to share what my friends are to my satisfaction 14:04:09 s/Nokia:/Nokia,/ 14:04:15 ... the reality mining data is online and publicly available but is kind of an exception to the rule 14:04:24 http://reality.media.mit.edu/download.php - reality mining data 14:05:07 ... I like the idea of people having to cite my paper before thy use this data. 14:05:18 ... I spent 3 years gathering these data. 14:06:09 hhalpin: we realized it is hard to get data and we hope improve it 14:06:11 factions? 14:06:23 companies? 14:06:37 mobile datas? 14:06:37 nathan: many other groups have had the same agenda for many years. 14:06:58 ... I can give you a list of these groups 14:07:12 http://crawdad.cs.dartmouth.edu/ 14:08:42 im overwhelmed 14:09:12 head spinning 14:09:24 nathan: we saw differences in radius, phone frequencies and duration patterns, e.g. in Africa an average of 3sec. 14:09:27 glad its not just me 14:09:37 Not in near-term 14:09:59 User-generated content in developing world! 14:10:27 nathan: we need to develop content for developing world 14:10:32 hhalpin: example? 14:10:40 im sure that problem would be solved when the providers recognize it enhances the data they have 14:11:03 nathan : like a job posting liste, item to sell 14:11:41 ... the current cost of it is to high right now 14:11:57 -AlexPassant 14:12:29 http://txteagle.com/ 14:12:43 Mechanical Turk... 14:12:49 Mobile Mechanical Turk for developing world. 14:13:51 Wonderful ! really! 14:13:59 great! thanks 14:14:00 nathan: send me a reminder to send you the draft. 14:14:08 good question harry 14:14:37 "biggeset impact, trying to encourage legislation, and operators to change pricing schmes" 14:14:41 proposes ... ACTION: hhalpin to ask Nathan Eagle for the draft of his chapter 14:14:57 ACTION: hhalpin to ask Nathan Eagle for the draft of his chapter 14:14:57 Created ACTION-67 - Ask Nathan Eagle for the draft of his chapter [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-08-26]. 14:15:22 Nathan - data standardization is premature 14:15:22 - +1.505.982.aaaa 14:15:24 - +1.314.683.aagg 14:15:25 WOW, that was awesome 14:15:26 -MacTed 14:15:35 very interesting 14:15:38 -tinkster 14:15:40 Meeting adjourned 14:15:48 .aagg is me 14:16:54 FabGandon: aren't most people native speakers (of at least one language)? 14:17:16 s/FabGandon: are/FabGandon, are/ 14:17:44 hhalpin: we need to try to finish the Use Cases doc 14:18:01 rreck: we should focus on finalizing the use cases 14:18:14 hhalpin: may be less invited speakers ? 14:18:27 sounds good 14:18:36 can we also discuss the use cases on the mailing list? 14:18:53 so for example deal with each use case as a seperate mail, and work it out online? 14:19:12 hhalpin: we push over next month the use case document 14:19:28 that would make sense... 14:19:37 some of the use-cases have been discussed very heavily, and others haven't. 14:19:41 henry: take the use cases one by one and send email for each one? 14:19:53 yes 14:20:05 hhalpin: five at a time not to flood the list ? 14:20:25 ACTION: bblfish to send some e-mail about use-cases out... 14:20:25 Created ACTION-68 - Send some e-mail about use-cases out... [on Henry Story - due 2009-08-26]. 14:21:02 henry: if no one answers on a use case we just drop it 14:21:12