IRC log of ua on 2009-08-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:32:49 [RRSAgent]
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16:32:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:33:00 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_
16:33:00 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
16:33:16 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:34:34 [AllanJ]
chair: Jim_Allan
16:36:21 [AllanJ]
regrets: Henny_Swan, Kelly_Ford, Jan_Richards, Mark_Hakkinen
16:39:05 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ HTML 5 and UAAG review -
16:39:14 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Review Survey
16:58:26 [mth]
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17:00:01 [jeanne]
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17:00:08 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:00:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:00:27 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:45 [Zakim]
17:01:39 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:01:44 [KimPatch]
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17:01:54 [Zakim]
17:02:08 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:02:08 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:02:28 [sharper]
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17:02:33 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:02:33 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:03:08 [Zakim]
17:03:10 [sharper]
zakim, ??P9 is sharper
17:03:10 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:03:35 [sharper]
present+ Harper_Simon (SH-sharper)
17:03:49 [Zakim]
17:04:29 [mth]
i am only going to be able to do IRC for about 20 minutes.
17:04:57 [Zakim]
17:05:06 [AllanJ]
zakim, [Apple] is really David_Tseng
17:05:06 [Zakim]
+David_Tseng; got it
17:05:15 [dtseng]
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17:07:39 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
17:07:49 [jeanne]
topic: Review of HTML5
17:08:00 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:08:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, AllanJ, sharper, David_Tseng, Kim
17:08:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dtseng, sharper, KimPatch, jeanne, mth, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot
17:08:18 [jeanne]
present+ Jeanne, AllanJ, sharper, David_Tseng, Kim
17:09:36 [jeanne]
present+ Mark (irc)
17:10:47 [AllanJ]
zakim, open agendum 1
17:10:47 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "HTML 5 and UAAG review -" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:11:57 [jeanne]
topic: kelly's comments
17:12:01 [AllanJ]
Topic: 7.2
17:13:18 [jeanne]
Kelly: User agents will need to ensure to reflect the state of this attribute in their accessibility APIs. This may be stating the obvious but is worth calling out since there are various situations today where AT products do or do not show the same text that is visually displayed and this is another potential variable to keep in mind.
17:15:39 [AllanJ]
JA: if HTML says 'hidden' and CSS says "visible" who wins?
17:15:43 [jeanne]
JA: If there is another CSS or some other setting to make it visible, which prevails
17:16:15 [jeanne]
KP: There needs to be a robust user mechanism to allow the user to decide what is visible
17:19:17 [jeanne]
JA: if the script changes an element from hidden to visible, does it fire an event to refresh the page or notify the user?
17:19:44 [jeanne]
DT: There are notifications that can be sent on the Mac that are specific to elements set on the DOM tree.
17:20:57 [mth]
for those who hide form labels off screen with css position... it would have been interesting to consider ".hidden" as as less of a kludge. this seems to really hide and removes it from view of both AT and screen?
17:21:08 [AllanJ]
JS: do we tell HTML that notification of user must be included in their document
17:22:18 [jeanne]
DT: Does HTML5 go into that much detail for the user agent developer.
17:23:12 [jeanne]
JA: Some of the details of how the user agent should respond or be rendered is included in HTML5. But not necessarily this detail that the user needs to be notified.
17:23:47 [jeanne]
JA: Is there some ability in the Accessibility API for mechanisms for notification of layout changes.
17:24:39 [jeanne]
DT: the major ones all support it. But major AT developers may have their own mechanisms for getting content information
17:25:48 [jeanne]
JA: Does it have a generic watcher to watch for DOM changes and pass that information to the notification mechanism?
17:27:06 [jeanne]
DT: the user agent notifies the Accessibility API that a change has happened, then the Accessibility API passes that ifnormation to the AT.
17:28:23 [KimPatch]
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17:29:00 [jeanne]
SH: We talked about Mutation Events last week where HTML5 only fires mutation events when there are changes to the DOM, so AT that is listeninng for mutation events will pick it up. JAAAWS v.10 picks it up.
17:30:09 [jeanne]
... HTML5 only says fire mutation event when appropriate, so that is a problem because it leaves it up to the user agent developer to determine what/when it is appropriate.
17:31:27 [jeanne]
... ARIA has rules for determining the importance of mutation event notifications. But that is not included in HTML5 yet.
17:32:09 [jeanne]
DT: ARIA has different ratings for alerts, it should be the AT to convey that information to the user.
17:33:38 [jeanne]
JA: We need to make a comment to HTML5 and we need to add it to the UAAG guidelines.
17:34:44 [jeanne]
JA: Based on what Simon and David said, the user agent must fire a mutation event and let the accessibility API decide.
17:34:49 [sharper]
17:34:49 [sharper]
3.6.1 Controlling the input stream
17:34:49 [sharper]
Point 8, Remove all child nodes of the document, without firing any mutation events.
17:34:54 [jeanne]
... what is communicated to the user.
17:36:10 [jeanne]
RESOLUTION: We need to comment to HTML5 that 3.6.1 should fire all mutation events and let the accessibility API made the decision of what to do iwth it.
17:37:04 [jeanne]
JA: DT, please review section 2 on Assistive Technology.
17:38:09 [jeanne]
Also an issue: If HTML5 says hidden, and CSS says visible, who decides?
17:39:06 [jeanne]
DT: Not an accessibility issue, it is resolved at the DOM level. THe AT will reflect what is on the screen.
17:45:46 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:45:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
17:51:01 [AllanJ]
JS: cite the item, the issue, and suggest wording
17:51:17 [AllanJ]
...bring deeper issues to UA group
17:53:50 [jeanne]
RESOLUTION: In section 7.2 (Editor's Draft) make it clear whether CSS or HTML takes precedence when they conflict on what is visible.
17:54:14 [jeanne]
Topic HTML5 section 7.4
17:54:24 [AllanJ]
Topic: 7.4 Scroll into view
17:54:25 [jeanne]
topic: HTML5 section 7.4
17:55:03 [jeanne]
kelly's comments:
17:55:33 [jeanne]
This is a DOM Method.
17:56:14 [jeanne]
HTML5: element . scrollIntoView( [ top ] )
17:56:14 [jeanne]
Scrolls the element into view. If the top argument is true, then the element will be scrolled to the top of the viewport, otherwise it'll be scrolled to the bottom. The default is the top.
17:59:05 [jeanne]
DT: should it change the focus, and what element should the focus go to?
17:59:45 [jeanne]
KP: This is a big issue for speech input users, because the user can be issuing a command and the focus will be in a different place than the user expected.
18:00:21 [jeanne]
JA: It can change the point of regard, change the keyboard focus, move the caret in caret-browsing and it can fire an event.
18:03:00 [jeanne]
RESOLUTION: Comment on HTML5 7.4 (Editor's Draft) for HTML5 to clarify on the scrollingIntoView whether it changes the the point of regard, change the keyboard focus, move the caret or fire an event. Does it do some or all of these?
18:04:25 [jeanne]
topic: 7.10 Drag and Drop
18:04:50 [jeanne]
Kelly's comments: this is mouse based.
18:05:09 [AllanJ]
18:05:11 [jeanne]
JA: This falls more on us than on them.
18:14:15 [jeanne]
ReSOLUTION: HTML5 needs a "droppable" attribute so that you know where valid locations for the drop for keyboard or speech users.
18:15:45 [jeanne]
SH: has activation behaviour section
18:16:49 [jeanne]
Suggest to tell them or we need to put in UAAG for being able to stop activation behavior and to know what behavior will activate.
18:18:18 [jeanne]
KP: It is especially important with speech to be able to stop behaviors activating.
18:21:36 [AllanJ]
Resolution: Interactive content - user needs knowledge of which elements can be activated, how to activate, how to stop, what will happen,
18:27:51 [Zakim]
18:27:53 [Zakim]
18:27:54 [Zakim]
18:28:08 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:28:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, AllanJ
18:28:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KimPatch, dtseng, sharper, jeanne, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, trackbot
18:38:38 [Zakim]
18:38:40 [Zakim]
18:38:40 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:38:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jeanne, AllanJ, sharper, Kim, David_Tseng
18:40:11 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:40:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
18:40:54 [jeanne]
Meeting: UAAG WG teleconference
18:41:46 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:41:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
18:42:09 [jeanne]
zakim, bye
18:42:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:42:14 [jeanne]
rrsagent, bye
18:42:14 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items