IRC log of rdfa on 2009-08-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:45:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:46:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:46:08 [msporny]
zakim, this will be rdfa
14:46:08 [Zakim]
ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
14:46:19 [msporny]
Scribe: Manu_Sporny
14:46:27 [msporny]
ScribeNick: msporny
14:46:44 [msporny]
Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:46:52 [msporny]
Chair: Manu_Sporny
14:47:17 [msporny]
14:47:33 [msporny]
14:47:43 [msporny]
Present: Manu_Sporny
14:47:52 [msporny]
Regrets: Ben_Adida, Ralph_Swick
14:49:10 [msporny]
rrsagent, make log public
14:49:16 [msporny]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:49:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate msporny
15:00:33 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:00:53 [markbirbeck]
zakim, code?
15:00:53 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:01:34 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:01:42 [Zakim]
15:01:43 [msporny]
zakim, I am ??P3
15:01:43 [Zakim]
+msporny; got it
15:01:46 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:01:47 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:01:47 [Zakim]
15:02:11 [Zakim]
15:04:13 [msporny]
Topic: Action Items
15:04:28 [msporny]
ACTION: Ben to author wiki page with charter template for RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in]
15:04:49 [msporny]
-- done
15:05:07 [msporny]
ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template.
15:05:24 [msporny]
Manu: Ben said that we should review RDFa IG charter template.
15:05:59 [msporny]
ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in]
15:06:03 [msporny]
-- continues
15:06:23 [msporny]
Steven: RDFa IG has suggestions for RDFa 1.1
15:06:40 [msporny]
Steven: Can an RDFa IG do RDFa 1.1?
15:06:52 [msporny]
Steven: We would need a WG for a next version of RDFa 1.1
15:10:08 [msporny]
markbirbeck: Why don't you co-chair RDFa?
15:10:26 [msporny]
Manu: Not sure if I have the time to do so, but Ben may want this as well as he's increasingly busy these days.
15:11:37 [Steven]
"This document defines three types of groups:
15:11:37 [Steven]
Working Groups. Working Groups typically produce deliverables (e.g., Recommendation Track technical reports, software, test suites, and reviews of the deliverables of other groups). There are Good Standing requirements for Working Group participation as well as additional participation requirements described in the W3C Patent Policy [PUB33].
15:11:37 [Steven]
Interest Groups. The primary goal of an Interest Group is to bring together people who wish to evaluate potential Web technologies and policies. An Interest Group is a forum for the exchange of ideas.
15:11:37 [Steven]
Coordination Groups. A Coordination Group manages dependencies and facilitates communication with other groups, within or outside of W3C.
15:11:40 [Steven]
15:11:44 [Steven]
15:11:49 [Steven]
15:12:07 [msporny]
Manu: We need to speak with Ralph about generating an RDFa 1.1 in an IG.
15:12:24 [msporny]
Topic: RDFa IG (review/approve charter) and Suggestions for RDFa 1.1
15:13:05 [msporny]
Manu: any other requirements for a WG?
15:13:53 [msporny]
Steven: We need a staff contact.
15:14:40 [msporny]
Steven: Is 1 year enough?
15:15:02 [msporny]
Manu: Don't know if we want more time...
15:15:13 [msporny]
markbirbeck: I agree with Steven, we need more time
15:15:16 [msporny]
Manu: Two years?
15:15:29 [msporny]
markbirbeck: Should it be the embedded metadata interest group?
15:15:34 [Steven]
It lways takes longer than you expect
15:16:16 [msporny]
markbirbeck: As time moves on, we may find ourselves dealing with other types of embedded metadata.
15:16:24 [msporny]
Steven: Yes, it's good if we generalize without making it vague.
15:17:08 [msporny]
Manu: So, this group would talk about RDFa, Microformats, and Microdata?
15:17:17 [msporny]
markbirbeck: Maybe we should throw in Linked Data as well.
15:17:27 [msporny]
markbirbeck: We are not interested in SPARQL or pure RDF/XML or N3.
15:17:39 [msporny]
markbirbeck: We're interested in expressing metadata/RDF in HTML.
15:17:56 [msporny]
markbirbeck: We might want to broaden the participation.
15:18:49 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:19:01 [msporny]
Manu: +1 to the idea
15:19:19 [msporny]
Manu: this wouldn't change much of the language in the charter.
15:19:32 [msporny]
Steven: I dislike the out of scope section.
15:19:45 [msporny]
markbirbeck: Yes, you're right.
15:19:57 [msporny]
markbirbeck: Everything else is out of scope, so why specifically mention HTML5.
15:20:04 [Zakim]
15:20:19 [ShaneM]
zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
15:20:19 [Zakim]
+ShaneM; got it
15:20:49 [msporny]
15:21:41 [msporny]
Steven: If an IG is not allowed to RDFa 1.1, we have to do a WG.
15:21:58 [msporny]
ShaneM: +1
15:22:00 [msporny]
Manu: +1
15:22:02 [markbirbeck]
15:22:22 [msporny]
Topic: Features in RDFa 1.1
15:22:43 [msporny]
Steven: Let's not discuss that - that's a task of the new WG.
15:22:53 [msporny]
Manu: Anyone else object to not talking about it?
15:23:03 [msporny]
Manu: No objections noted, continuing on.
15:23:46 [msporny]
Topic: @profile discussion
15:25:43 [msporny]
Manu: Ben was asking for a way to set the default prefix.
15:26:59 [msporny]
Manu: and that would in-turn use RDF reasoning agents to figure out the proper term.
15:29:12 [msporny]
Manu: What Mark is saying is that @token is for specifying mappings for CURIEs.
15:30:00 [msporny]
Manu: Mark is asserting that loading external vocabularies is a separate discussion, but @token does apply to that discussion.
15:30:30 [ShaneM]
q+ to remind that OWL is a red herring
15:30:35 [msporny]
markbirbeck: There may not even be an OWL/RDFs reasoning agent behind the mapping.
15:30:55 [msporny]
markbirbeck: I'm trying to propose a simple mechanism for mapping URIs.
15:31:39 [msporny]
markbirbeck: URIs are kinda like the infrastructure... we're trying to make URIs easier to manage.
15:32:03 [msporny]
ack shanem
15:32:03 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to remind that OWL is a red herring
15:32:15 [msporny]
ShaneM: You mentioned OWL - OWL is a red herring.
15:32:30 [msporny]
ShaneM: You don't need OWL to say X is the same as Y.
15:32:43 [msporny]
ShaneM: Crafting ontologies are not for the meek.
15:33:10 [markbirbeck]
15:33:13 [msporny]
ShaneM: Having an inline mechanism for defining additional reserved words is orthogonal to this other stuff.
15:33:49 [msporny]
ShaneM: If we can have an inline mechanism for defining additional reserved words, there is value in that.
15:34:17 [msporny]
ShaneM: Ben wants to solve the use case...
15:37:29 [msporny]
ShaneM: How do we specify vocabularies that are easy for people to access?
15:37:39 [msporny]
ack markbirbeck
15:38:07 [msporny]
markbirbeck: Don't know if OWL is quite a red herring - I think they mean RDFS...
15:38:20 [msporny]
markbirbeck: We're talking about mapping one property to another.
15:38:30 [msporny]
markbirbeck: He is talking about mapping properties/classes.
15:38:42 [Zakim]
15:38:43 [msporny]
Manu: We may want to approach this from another direction.
15:38:58 [Steven]
phone probs, brb
15:39:08 [msporny]
Manu: Thinking about it from conformance levels might be helpful.
15:39:17 [msporny]
Manu: RDFa Level 1 - all triples are generated from the document.
15:39:51 [msporny]
Manu: RDFa Level 2 - Loading external network documents is required for processor conformance.
15:39:59 [Steven]
zakim, dial ste
15:39:59 [Zakim]
I am sorry, Steven; I do not know a number for ste
15:40:15 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:40:15 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:40:17 [Zakim]
15:40:17 [msporny]
markbirbeck: I don't know if we need to make the differentiation.
15:40:50 [msporny]
markbirbeck: W3C has many specs that require network access.
15:41:10 [msporny]
markbirbeck: We're talking about using a URI to specify a profile.
15:41:17 [msporny]
markbirbeck: You start with a document and then you specify fallbacks.
15:41:39 [msporny]
markbirbeck: Nobody said that the thing pointed to by @profile must be an RDFa document.
15:42:17 [msporny]
markbirbeck: It could be a JSON formatted document... you could retrieve information.
15:42:35 [msporny]
markbirbeck: That doesn't require XMLHttpRequest...
15:42:51 [msporny]
markbirbeck: You could do it with a <script> tag: <script source="predefined_vocab.js" />
15:43:15 [ShaneM]
q+ to discuss dereferencing
15:43:17 [msporny]
markbirbeck: You can't really do anything with the triples in Ben's proposal unless you've done the RDF schema mapping.
15:43:36 [msporny]
markbirbeck: We should really discuss the dereferncing mechanisms...
15:43:44 [msporny]
ack shanem
15:43:44 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to discuss dereferencing
15:44:12 [msporny]
ShaneM: I don't agree with Ben's approach entirely... but you can do something with the triples.
15:44:19 [msporny]
ShaneM: You can compare them.
15:44:47 [msporny]
ShaneM: If you can't retrieve the remote document.
15:45:23 [msporny]
ShaneM: if you can't get the remote document, and it's never been cached before, you can't figure out what the triples mean.
15:45:48 [msporny]
ShaneM: Caching requires the ability to dereference the source.
15:46:23 [msporny]
ShaneM: There are security models here that mean that it's a problem.
15:46:33 [msporny]
ShaneM: Requring the external mechanism makes it challenging to go forward with it.
15:46:50 [msporny]
q+ requiring derefernceing mechanisms.
15:47:13 [msporny]
q+ to discuss requiring derefernceing mechanisms
15:47:33 [msporny]
markbirbeck: The amount of time that it works outweighs the the amount of times that didn't work.
15:48:12 [msporny]
markbirbeck: Say it's google crawling, if they can't get the external vocabulary, they don't have a complete representation of the document.
15:48:30 [msporny]
markbirbeck: The big issue is with the Javascript parsers.
15:48:55 [msporny]
markbirbeck: There is no magic solution, but there is no magic solution for any networked architecture.
15:49:02 [msporny]
ack msporny
15:49:02 [Zakim]
msporny, you wanted to discuss requiring derefernceing mechanisms
15:50:27 [ShaneM]
q+ to discuss ambiguity of content when things are dereferenced vs. when they are not
15:50:53 [msporny]
ack shane
15:50:53 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to discuss ambiguity of content when things are dereferenced vs. when they are not
15:51:07 [msporny]
Manu: This is the web - we dereference all the time.
15:51:38 [msporny]
Manu: If in 1% of the cases, we can't dereference, so what?
15:52:05 [msporny]
ShaneM: Without a profile, terms are meaningless.
15:52:09 [Zakim]
15:52:15 [Steven]
phone died again
15:52:28 [msporny]
ShaneM: Combine that situation with the ability to have a default prefix.
15:53:23 [msporny]
ShaneM: The default prefix mechanism is only complementary when external loading works.
15:53:35 [msporny]
markbirbeck: good point.
15:53:38 [msporny]
Manu: +1
15:54:09 [msporny]
I have to go in 2 minutes - HTML WG telecon.
15:54:53 [msporny]
ShaneM: <span defaultprefix="" profile="" rel="fish" />
15:55:06 [msporny]
ShaneM: if the external document foo, failed to load (which contains fish)
15:55:27 [ShaneM]
remember that microformats dont map to triples
15:55:32 [msporny]
ShaneM: Then the term that is generated would be" and not
15:57:15 [msporny]
markbirbeck: Loading default tokens for known @profiles is not a big deal.
15:57:19 [msporny]
ShaneM: yes, that is a big deal.
15:57:39 [msporny]
ShaneM: if Google updates its token list, and you're loading an old one, that's a big deal.
15:57:47 [msporny]
ShaneM: your triples are different.
15:57:50 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:57:50 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:57:51 [Zakim]
15:58:09 [msporny]
markbirbeck: It's probably not the case that there are hundreds of vocabularies flying around.
15:58:20 [msporny]
I really have to go, going to stop scribing now.
15:58:54 [msporny]
markbirbeck: We want a generic mechanism - follow your nose that works on everything.
15:59:29 [msporny]
markbirbeck: But we also should be okay with people hard coding things into their parsers.
15:59:36 [ShaneM]
Remember that HTTP supports GET and HEAD - caching is relatively easy. triple stores can be cached.
15:59:51 [msporny]
Bye guys - have a great weekend... good call, thing we're making progress :0
15:59:56 [Zakim]
16:01:51 [Steven]
I have to go too, another call in an hour (XForms 1.1 PR transition) and have to eat in the meantime
16:01:56 [Zakim]
16:07:01 [Zakim]
16:07:08 [Zakim]
16:07:09 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:07:11 [Zakim]
Attendees were msporny, Steven, markbirbeck, ShaneM
16:15:41 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:02:46 [msporny]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate msporny
17:03:21 [msporny]
Present+ Mark_Birbeck, Shane_McCarron, Steven_Pemberton
17:03:37 [msporny]
Regrets+ Michael_Hausenblas
17:03:40 [msporny]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate msporny
17:58:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
18:07:15 [msporny]
rrsagent, bye
18:07:15 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
18:07:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to author wiki page with charter template for RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in] [1]
18:07:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:07:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu to finalize RDFa IG charter template. [2]
18:07:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
18:07:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in] [3]
18:07:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in