IRC log of svg on 2009-08-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:28:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
06:28:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to
06:28:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
06:28:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
06:28:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:28:29 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
06:28:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:28:30 [trackbot]
Date: 12 August 2009
06:28:59 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
06:29:06 [Zakim]
06:29:31 [Zakim]
06:29:33 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
06:29:33 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
06:30:13 [Zakim]
06:30:30 [ed]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
06:30:30 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
06:32:48 [heycam]
06:37:48 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
06:38:41 [Zakim]
06:42:28 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
06:42:40 [ChrisL]
Scribe: Chris
06:42:48 [ChrisL]
ScribeNick: ChrisL
06:43:39 [ChrisL]
06:43:44 [ChrisL]
Meeting: SVG WG
06:44:03 [ChrisL]
Topic: SVG 1.1 Second Edition progress, tests
06:44:31 [ChrisL]
CM: Checking up where we are at. Close to finish. Did all my spec editing actions and test for my section of erratta
06:44:43 [ChrisL]
... reviewed tests already linked by other people
06:45:01 [ChrisL]
..can pick up one or two other tests from the slackers
06:45:18 [ChrisL]
s/.. can/... can/
06:45:27 [heycam]
06:46:22 [ChrisL]
CL: I will go looking for which tests are needed. Not done yet sorry
06:46:45 [ChrisL]
CM: Can't review my own tests
06:46:52 [ChrisL]
... please review tests
06:47:16 [Zakim]
06:47:22 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P4 is me
06:47:22 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
06:47:33 [ChrisL]
CM: Couple of outstanding errata, two from Doug one from JWatt
06:47:45 [ChrisL]
... should we discuss at next weeks telcon?
06:47:48 [ChrisL]
DS: Sure
06:48:52 [ChrisL]
DS: JWatt said he had resewrvations about complicating the model for clipping and visibility
06:49:37 [ChrisL]
CM: After that, only a couple of admin tasks like building the PDF
06:49:54 [Zakim]
06:50:05 [ChrisL]
... but would like to see a couple of items on todays agenda resolved before publication
06:50:15 [ChrisL]
zakim, ??P5 is Anthony
06:50:15 [Zakim]
+Anthony; got it
06:50:25 [ChrisL]
zakim, ??P5 is JWatt
06:50:25 [Zakim]
I already had ??P5 as Anthony, ChrisL
06:50:29 [jwatt]
jwatt has joined #svg
06:50:46 [ChrisL]
zakim, Anthony is really JWatt
06:50:46 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'Anthony'
06:50:53 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here
06:50:53 [Zakim]
ChrisL, you need to end that query with '?'
06:50:56 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
06:50:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, heycam, ed, ChrisL, anthony, Anthony
06:50:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jwatt, ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, heycam, ed, eseidelDesk, shepazu, anthony, karl, ed_work, trackbot
06:51:26 [ChrisL]
CM: JWatt, we will discuss some of this next week
06:51:40 [ChrisL]
Topic: Test suite template
06:52:11 [ChrisL]
CM: Anthony, you had things to discuss? Sections for test description section?
06:52:51 [ChrisL]
AG: Not sure about which is the best structure
06:53:11 [ChrisL]
C: Current template split into descriotion, operator script and pass criteria
06:53:35 [ChrisL]
... automatic conversion put all previous stuff into one of these, not eassy to split automatically
06:53:44 [ChrisL]
s/C: CM:/
06:54:12 [ChrisL]
CM: So we need to split them manually?
06:54:28 [ChrisL]
AG: Split some where it was obvious. Others need a bit more work
06:54:52 [ChrisL]
CM: How would we use the different sections? ie whats the impact of having it all on one bit?
06:55:20 [ChrisL]
AG: Its a better organisation, easier to read, and to check
06:56:16 [ChrisL]
CL: Splitting may make it easier to see tests that have poor pass criteria
06:56:34 [ChrisL]
CM: No impact on actually running the tests though
06:56:49 [ChrisL]
CM: Status of harness generation scripts?
06:57:18 [ChrisL]
AG: For SE its same as the old one, needs to be modified to grab stuff from new template. Have not modified the harness
06:57:35 [ChrisL]
... used these scripts for 1.2T testsuite.
06:58:31 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Anthony to fix up 1.1SE test suite harness for new template
06:58:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2647 - Fix up 1.1SE test suite harness for new template [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-08-19].
06:59:09 [ChrisL]
ED: Are we still going to strip out the test descriptions to do svggen like we used to?
06:59:27 [ChrisL]
CL: Think svggen is pointless, no need for svggen any more
06:59:44 [ChrisL]
CL: Same as with 1.2T
06:59:59 [ChrisL]
CM: So no revision number problems either
07:00:21 [ChrisL]
C: Other thing is that test decription has a test component child, what is that for?
07:00:27 [ChrisL]
AG: For subtests
07:01:07 [ChrisL]
... but subtests could have separate pzss criteria so maybe this is not a good idea (looks at template)
07:01:28 [ChrisL]
C: I have been writing the pass criteria all in one section, seems to be fine
07:01:37 [anthony]
07:02:19 [ChrisL]
AG: Should we split up or not in the template?
07:02:46 [ChrisL]
CM: Prefer to not split it up. Though difficult to link to multiple sections of the spec....
07:03:10 [ChrisL]
AG: OK will fix so the script only needs to deal with three sections
07:03:16 [ChrisL]
07:03:43 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Anthony edit the test template to remove child sections for subtests
07:03:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2648 - Edit the test template to remove child sections for subtests [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-08-19].
07:03:49 [Zakim]
07:04:21 [ed]
agenda+ MAMA update
07:04:30 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
07:04:40 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:04:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
07:04:50 [Zakim]
07:04:54 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
07:04:54 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
07:05:04 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
07:05:04 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Doug_Schepers, heycam, ed, ChrisL, anthony
07:05:22 [ChrisL]
AG: I will make the same change to the modules template
07:05:40 [ChrisL]
CM: Do any of the modules have tests yet?
07:05:42 [ChrisL]
07:05:51 [ChrisL]
CM: Best to keep it all consistent
07:06:09 [ChrisL]
Topic: Pinned clip module
07:06:09 [ChrisL]
07:06:32 [ChrisL]
CM: Notice Doug checked it into public repository
07:06:51 [ChrisL]
DS: Alex Danilo sent it to me, so checked it in
07:07:02 [ChrisL]
... in case we need it for SVG2
07:07:10 [ChrisL]
CM: Does he plan to work on it?
07:07:16 [ChrisL]
DS: Will check
07:08:16 [ChrisL]
DS: One of the ogg theora people raised the issue offlist, asking if SVG talks about pixel orientation, where the pixel starts (top left,centre) and pinned clip covers that
07:08:26 [ChrisL]
... asked him to comment on public list
07:09:08 [Zakim]
07:09:34 [Zakim]
07:09:36 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
07:09:36 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
07:09:57 [ChrisL]
CL: We really need to decide as different rendering libraries are off by 0.5 pixel because of this
07:11:21 [Zakim]
07:11:56 [Zakim]
07:11:58 [ChrisL]
CL: Prefer to look at this and decide the majority solution
07:11:58 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
07:11:58 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
07:12:05 [ChrisL]
ED: Opera does centre
07:13:20 [ChrisL]
DS: Should be a SHOULD, but we should pick one
07:13:56 [ChrisL]
CL;: Would like to see a test, then picj what most do
07:14:31 [ChrisL]
DS: Alex said that top left is assumed, so 0,0 is the top left of the top left (quotes from an email)
07:15:01 [ChrisL]
CL: Please get permission to forward that email
07:15:14 [ChrisL]
DS: And the tests he is talking about
07:16:12 [ChrisL]
CL: Would changing be an issue for Opera, is there content that relies on centre pixel positioning?
07:16:15 [ed]
07:16:24 [ChrisL]
ED: Don't think so. Made a test ....
07:17:26 [ed]
<line x1="10" y1="10" x2="100" y2="10" stroke="black"/>
07:17:27 [ed]
<line x1="10" y1="20.5" x2="100" y2="20.5" stroke="black"/>
07:18:34 [ChrisL]
Safari, Opera and Firefox seem to use pixel centres
07:19:04 [ChrisL]
JW: One will give sharp lines, the other gives sharp edges on rectangles
07:19:22 [ChrisL]
ED: Wonder if shape-rendering affects it
07:19:49 [ChrisL]
CM: Shape-rendering set to geometric-precision makes one blurry
07:21:25 [ChrisL]
(We find opoosite results on Mac and on Windows)
07:22:48 [ChrisL]
(some disagrement vs platform, browser version, lcd type ...)
07:22:59 [ChrisL]
macbook vs macbook pro seems tobe different
07:23:21 [ChrisL]
ED: Opera versions should be the same on all platforms modulo floating point libraries
07:24:06 [ChrisL]
ISSUE: Whether a given integer coordinate is pixel centre or pixel top-left needs to be determined
07:24:06 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2291 - Whether a given integer coordinate is pixel centre or pixel top-left needs to be determined ; please complete additional details at .
07:24:52 [ChrisL]
Topic: animVal object identity [www-svg]
07:24:52 [ChrisL]
07:24:55 [ed]
may have been confusing the two things btw, sampling is done in the center but the coordinates in the file are top-left I believe
07:25:06 [ed]
(for opera)
07:26:07 [ChrisL]
Brian Birtles was asking if animval is writable. Unclear whether 'same as baseval' is pointer to same object or two copies
07:26:52 [ChrisL]
... can change baseval, but can't change animval. Unless they are piujnters to same object
07:27:09 [ChrisL]
CL: But if they are bing animval, then writing will be overwritten
07:27:21 [ChrisL]
JW: Attempts to write to animval should throw
07:27:27 [ChrisL]
CM: Think shttas the case
07:27:42 [ChrisL]
CM: Second issue is about the exception
07:28:07 [ChrisL]
... BB said it would be more consistent to trying to assign to .animval if there was no throwing
07:28:19 [ChrisL]
... but animval.value does throw
07:28:27 [ChrisL]
CM: Thing its normal
07:28:37 [ChrisL]
JW: Does webidl fix that?
07:28:53 [ChrisL]
CM: It could currently says assigning to readonly is ignored
07:29:07 [ChrisL]
JW: Silently failis hard to debug
07:29:33 [ChrisL]
CM: Related to strict mode in ecma 5, in strict mode it thows
07:29:58 [ChrisL]
JW: Do we currently just reference what ECMA says?
07:30:15 [ChrisL]
CM: Currently we point to third edition?
07:31:00 [ChrisL]
(fourth edition shall not be mentioned)
07:31:30 [ChrisL]
CM: So suggest we resolve the ambiguity by saying its always a separate object to baseval
07:32:27 [Zakim]
07:32:32 [ChrisL]
... its readonly, cant change, animval.value would throw an exception always, not just when there is an animation in progress
07:33:19 [Zakim]
07:33:28 [ed]
Zakim, ??p2 is me
07:33:28 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
07:34:07 [ChrisL]
CM: Would need special processing to see if baseval is recomputed
07:34:18 [ChrisL]
(scribe mayhave misunderstood)
07:34:36 [heycam]
07:34:48 [ChrisL]
CM; tested a bunch of implementations, browser and standalone, they always have distinct objects for baseval and animval
07:34:59 [ChrisL]
07:36:52 [ChrisL]
CM: Proposal is to make them distinct objects
07:36:57 [ChrisL]
JW: Seems fine to me
07:37:18 [ChrisL]
Resolved: Clarify that basevaland animval are separate objects
07:37:32 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Cameron to Clarify that basevaland animval are separate objects
07:37:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2649 - Clarify that basevaland animval are separate objects [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-08-19].
07:38:38 [heycam]
Topic: MAMA
07:39:09 [ChrisL]
ED: Sent mail to guy running MAMA on Opera, some responses
07:39:35 [ChrisL]
... does it run scripts, does it do propoer parsing. Its a static analysis, some parsing but they are not run
07:39:50 [ChrisL]
... so script side effects not seen
07:40:38 [ChrisL]
... also asked for stats on svg on the web, so it only does static analysis and misses mixed html and svg
07:40:55 [Zakim]
07:40:55 [ChrisL]
... pointed him to some frameworks that use svg like dojo and raphael
07:41:04 [ChrisL]
... he could count uses of thise frameworks
07:41:26 [Zakim]
07:41:28 [heycam]
Zakim, [ ism e
07:41:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[ ism e', heycam
07:41:29 [ChrisL]
... asked on stats for methods in SVG DOM used
07:41:30 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
07:41:30 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
07:41:45 [ChrisL]
... will send him the details needed to do that. Can do in static analysis
07:42:12 [ChrisL]
ED: Frequency analysis of svg elements and attributes could be done, is not done yet
07:42:34 [ChrisL]
... does not handle inline svg, easy to add
07:42:45 [ChrisL]
.. asked about svg and stylesheets, no results yet
07:43:05 [ChrisL]
... many people asking for svg stuff to be added to Mama, david story, chaals asked
07:43:06 [ChrisL]
07:43:27 [ChrisL]
ED: Still waiting for answers to some questions
07:43:57 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:43:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
07:44:13 [ChrisL]
Topic: Platform evolution and attributeType="auto" [www-svg]
07:44:13 [ChrisL]
07:45:09 [heycam]
CL: originally we didn't have attributeType
07:45:19 [heycam]
... it was assumed the impl would know if it was a property, otherwise assume it's an attribute
07:45:28 [heycam]
... this only makes a difference with external stylesheets
07:45:41 [heycam]
... if it's a formatting property on an element, it makes no difference
07:46:13 [heycam]
... the only time it makes a difference is if the external style sheet is there and has a higher specificity that overrides the presentation attribute
07:46:23 [heycam]
... since most svgs don't have external stylesheets, there's no discernable effect
07:46:25 [ed]
<style>rect { fill: red !important }</style> for example
07:46:32 [heycam]
... the other time it makes a difference is if there's a prop and attr of the same name
07:46:44 [heycam]
... this came up in amaya
07:46:56 [heycam]
... where it thought width/height attrs on svg were the same as the css properties
07:47:03 [heycam]
... so it would need to keep those distinct
07:47:11 [heycam]
... and because of that one case, attributeType was introduced
07:47:26 [heycam]
... if you really happen to know if there's a conflicting attribute/property on an element, and you want to decide which, you can use attributeType
07:47:37 [heycam]
... so roc's comment about it limiting extensibility with default 'auto' value is true
07:48:02 [heycam]
... in 99% of cases it makes no difference. but if you had to say attributeType="css" for every time you animate a css property, it would be annoying
07:48:23 [heycam]
... so if you we introduce an animatable property in the future with the same name as an attribute, then yes it would cause trouble for future-compat
07:48:26 [heycam]
... so we shouldn't do that
07:48:34 [heycam]
DS: how does width/height differ in css?
07:49:24 [heycam]
CL: width/height properties on root svg help decide how large the svg is in the containing document
07:49:34 [heycam]
... if you try to apply the properties to the svg element itself it wouldn't do anything
07:49:42 [heycam]
... it's kind of a corner case
07:50:13 [heycam]
... 'fill' is another clashing attribute name case
07:50:23 [heycam]
... from smil, and for the painting property
07:50:27 [heycam]
... but you can't disambiguate there
07:50:43 [heycam]
CM: and the SMIL fill is never animatable anyway
07:50:58 [heycam]
CL: so the auto value does what you want in 99% of cases
07:51:08 [heycam]
DS: what needs to be done about this?
07:51:20 [heycam]
CL: an explanation about why it's not a problem in practice would be my suggestion
07:51:38 [heycam]
CM: so we'll say we won't introduce properties that clash in this way
07:53:06 [ChrisL]
ACTION: Chris to respond to RoC on Platform evolution and attributeType="auto"
07:53:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2650 - Respond to RoC on Platform evolution and attributeType="auto" [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-08-19].
07:53:32 [ChrisL]
DS: This should be clarified in the spec as wel as in an email
07:53:49 [ChrisL]
... so clarify the spec and point him to that
07:55:36 [ChrisL]
JW: and hurry, send an nterim response if there will be any delay because SMIL is being implemented currently
07:55:51 [ChrisL]
JW: 3.6 will be a short release, should be in 3.7
07:56:14 [ChrisL]
... Daniel Holbert and Brian Birtles working on it
07:56:41 [ChrisL]
... 3.6 is going straight to beta in a week or two
07:57:01 [ChrisL]
... should ship in January
07:58:02 [ChrisL]
... smil not enabled by default, as incomplete and buggy but can be anabled using about:config
07:58:36 [ChrisL]
... in nightlies, not 3.5
07:58:56 [ChrisL]
DS: Could an extension enable the support?
07:59:07 [jwatt]
s/January/January (my very rough guess)/
07:59:11 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, list attendees
07:59:11 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', ChrisL. Try /msg RRSAgent help
07:59:19 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
07:59:19 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Doug_Schepers, heycam, ed, ChrisL, anthony, [IPcaller]
07:59:37 [Zakim]
07:59:38 [Zakim]
07:59:38 [Zakim]
07:59:39 [Zakim]
07:59:39 [Zakim]
07:59:49 [ChrisL]
present: Doug, Chris, Cameron, Anthony, Erik, Jonothan
08:00:03 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:00:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
08:00:10 [Zakim]
08:00:11 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended
08:00:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were Doug_Schepers, heycam, ed, ChrisL, anthony, [IPcaller]
08:02:04 [ChrisL]
Present: Doug, Chris, Cameron, Anthony, Erik, Jonothan
08:02:09 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:02:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
09:41:56 [jwatt]
09:42:00 [jwatt]
09:42:11 [jwatt]
pointer-events="none" on the root element in a doc
09:42:30 [jwatt]
what should the target of a click in the content area be?
09:43:36 [jwatt]
ed_work? shepazu? anthony?
10:18:50 [ed_work]
10:20:10 [jwatt]
well the title is shown in the title bar
10:20:18 [jwatt]
so it's outside the document in a sense
10:20:33 [jwatt]
right ed_work?
10:21:15 [jwatt]
heh, stunned silence
10:22:44 [jwatt]
but seriously
10:23:06 [jwatt]
are there any use cases for putting pointer-events=none on the root?
10:23:24 [ed_work]
10:23:57 [ed_work]
or hmm...well, sortof
10:24:03 [ed_work]
it inherits
10:24:13 [ed_work]
but is only really applied to graphic elements
10:24:21 [jwatt]
10:24:29 [jwatt]
but why would you do it on the root?
10:24:34 [ed_work]
so say you had 1000 elements you didn't want events for, but a couple that you did want them for
10:25:47 [jwatt]
but what would you expect to happen when a click missed those couple?
10:26:45 [jwatt]
are you likely to be upset if document.documentElement listeners get fired?
10:33:38 [ed_work]
10:35:08 [jwatt]
ed_work: how about having it target the document?
10:35:25 [jwatt]
so no elements
10:36:46 [ed_work]
got a testcase?
10:37:00 [ed_work]
I made one, but maybe I should use addEventListener instead
10:37:27 [jwatt]
<svg xmlns="" height="100" style="pointer-events:none;">
10:37:29 [jwatt]
10:37:31 [jwatt]
function alert_target(event)
10:37:32 [jwatt]
10:37:34 [jwatt]
var target = '<unknown>';
10:37:35 [jwatt]
switch( {
10:37:37 [jwatt]
case window: target = 'window';
10:37:39 [jwatt]
case document: target = 'document';
10:37:40 [jwatt]
case document.documentElement: target = 'document.documentElement';
10:37:42 [jwatt]
10:37:43 [jwatt]
alert(' == '+target);
10:37:45 [jwatt]
10:37:46 [jwatt]
window.addEventListener('click', alert_target, false);
10:37:48 [jwatt]
10:37:49 [jwatt]
<rect width="100%" height="100%" fill="blue"/>
10:37:51 [jwatt]
10:39:44 [ed_work]
is it possible to disable being directed to a changelog page when you update firefox?
10:44:28 [jwatt]
10:45:08 [ed_work]
document.documentElement seems to be the target, are you looking to change that and why?
10:46:45 [ed_work]
argh, getting more and more annoyed with XP every day :P maybe it's reboot time soon
10:47:33 [ed_work]
pointer-events doesn't really apply to the svg element anyway, it's not a graphics element
10:48:41 [jwatt]
I'm extending pointer-events to work in HTML
10:48:46 [jwatt]
where this matters
10:49:31 [jwatt]
if all elements in the document have a computed value of pointer-events:none, then it seems weird/wrong that any element should be the target of the event
10:49:45 [jwatt]
including the root element
10:50:24 [ed_work]
well, that depends on what you want pointer-events to apply to in HTML, maybe it shouldn't apply to the body?
10:50:45 [jwatt]
why not?
10:51:07 [jwatt]
its simpler for users if it applies to all elements
10:52:54 [ed_work]
10:53:43 [ed_work]
I should probably do some testing
10:59:05 [ed_work]
yes, it should be applicable to any element that can get pointer-events (after some testing)
10:59:26 [heycam]
heycam has joined #svg
12:08:12 [karl]
karl has joined #svg