11:59:20 RRSAgent has joined #pling 11:59:21 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-pling-irc 11:59:21 + +1.703.405.aaaa 11:59:28 zakim, call thomas-781 11:59:28 ok, tlr; the call is being made 11:59:29 +Thomas 11:59:36 zakim, code? 11:59:36 the conference code is 75464 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), rigo 11:59:43 Giles has joined #pling 11:59:47 zakim, who is on the phone? 11:59:47 On the phone I see +1.703.405.aaaa, Thomas 12:00:17 + +33.9.66.40.aabb 12:00:25 zakim, aabb is Rigo 12:00:25 +Rigo; got it 12:00:37 + +30281039aacc 12:00:47 zakim, aacc is Giles 12:00:47 +Giles; got it 12:00:48 +Ashok_Malhotra 12:00:58 zakim, aaaa is Alissa 12:00:58 +Alissa; got it 12:01:24 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/2009-08-12 12:01:37 + +358.504.87aadd 12:02:06 zakim, aadd is Hannes 12:02:06 +Hannes; got it 12:05:32 zakim, who is here? 12:05:33 On the phone I see Alissa, Thomas, Rigo, Giles, Ashok_Malhotra, Hannes 12:05:35 On IRC I see Giles, RRSAgent, Zakim, rigo, Ashok_Malhotra, tlr 12:06:12 ScribeNick: tlr 12:06:15 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/2009-08-12 12:06:18 topic: action item review 12:06:24 http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-pling-minutes.html 12:06:39 http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-pling-minutes.html#action01] --PENDING 12:06:43 [PENDING] ACTION: RI &RW to followup with MA WG actions 12:06:55 Meeting: PLING 12:06:57 Chair: Rigo 12:06:59 Scribe: Thomas 12:07:10 topic: Device API Working Group 12:07:17 http://www./2009/dap/ 12:08:04 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/ 12:08:07 (ups) 12:08:38 rigo: general ideas around policy binding; would like to present these to the TAG 12:08:44 ... try to get to general policy hook requirement 12:08:58 ashok: one paragraph? Will be happy for TAG to start thinking about it 12:09:06 ACTION: rigo to send paragraph about policy binding to Ashok 12:09:26 scribenick: rigo 12:09:42 TLR presenting DAP 12:10:12 basic charter to create client side APIs that do interesting stuff, escaping from browser sandbox 12:10:30 ...especially for mobile sector 12:10:47 ...e.g. do stuff with camera or microphone on mobile phones 12:10:56 ...got input from Nokia 12:11:05 http://bondi.omtp.org/1.0/apis/index.html 12:11:20 ...and from OMTP that have presented their BONDI APIs 12:11:34 ...one of the concerns is security and policy aspects 12:11:57 lkagal has joined #pling 12:12:01 ...mobile in particular, security and privacy 12:12:50 ...policy part of BONDI and from Nokia, what a policy framework could look like 12:12:56 http://www.w3.org/2008/security-ws/papers/SecurityPolicyNokia.pdf 12:13:25 ...WG currently coming together, not meeting regularly yet, starting regular meetings in september 12:13:30 +Lalana_Kagal 12:13:54 ...reviewing the current APIs, policy will be the most difficult field 12:14:20 ...also different notion of identity, arch question of what identity of widget 12:14:31 ...expect this to take lot of energy 12:14:36 http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-widgets-access-20090804/ 12:14:57 Sorry, I'm late. 12:14:57 ...widget access request spec is taken into account 12:15:05 ...has to fit into the security model 12:15:45 ...also related spec under dev that deals with URI schemes for widgets, fitting into origin framework 12:16:25 ...that's the environment. Security related questions will be interesting. Other question is what is deployable on the web 12:16:52 ...a lot of things can be easily specified, but not deployable or not used even if deployed. 12:17:15 ...people should review nokia position paper and the OMTP contributions BONDI APIs. 12:18:08 RW: hook for policy, should be done here or in DAP. 12:18:40 tlr: well formed input will be taken seriously, but has to be prepared. Preparation should take place in PLING 12:19:07 GH: are major OS creators involved? 12:19:27 tlr: google, nokia, but don't know about symbian 12:19:41 ...inviting other players to join 12:20:50 zakim, mute me 12:20:50 sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 12:20:56 zakim, I am thomas 12:20:56 ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas 12:22:05 topic: NESSI and Nexof-RA, Software & Services Standardization 12:22:07 rigo: GRID as Web Services reloaded? Different connotation in Europe 12:22:09 ... entire unit @ commission occupied 12:22:17 ... GRID unit now moving into Cloud computing 12:22:27 ... Cloud as complex interaction hidden behind API 12:22:31 ... perhaps related to DAP 12:22:46 [ DAP is about JavaScript APIs that access client capabilities, so... ] 12:22:56 rigo: metadata problem -- input, output known, but what does it do? 12:23:37 ... semantics lacking standardization 12:23:42 ... agree on how to name the things 12:23:58 ... device capability ontology 12:24:04 ... NESSI is European technology platform 12:24:09 ... roof for all kinds of European research projects 12:24:31 ... supported by Nexof-RA project 12:24:48 ... policy and privacy metadata 12:25:02 ... have worked on some of this in WS2, SAWSDL 12:25:10 ... as a heads-up, want to direct them to PLING 12:25:11 -Hannes 12:25:35 +Hannes 12:26:01 hannes: this is a frequent topic 12:26:06 ... WSDL is basically an XML schema 12:26:10 ... doesn't tell you about semantics 12:26:34 ... haven't yet seen any promising approach 12:26:48 ... that would allow you not to have to go through standardization, but define semantics 12:26:55 ... so you can define new services using ontologies, and the like 12:26:57 ... what am I missing? 12:27:00 rigo: SAWSDL 12:27:16 http://www.w3.org/TR/sawsdl/ 12:27:25 WSDL just tells you what the message formats are 12:27:40 rigo: in several of the meetings at the commission, heard lots of presentations using WSM* from DERI Innsbruck 12:27:52 ... but mapped back to SAWSDL 12:28:09 ack tlr 12:28:17 Semantic Annotations for WSDL and XML Schema 12:28:23 ashok: you've been speaking of this for a long time 12:28:25 ... what's the uptake? 12:28:43 rigo: will take a long time, then take up 12:28:53 ... saw prototypes where they've done this 12:29:01 ... haven't seen serious industrial uptake 12:29:22 ... business models around separate ontologies 12:29:50 ... will need description for cloud 12:29:52 ashok: yes! 12:29:57 rigo: use case will become more significant 12:30:27 ... no need for ad-hoc discovery at this point 12:30:35 ... but will need this for sensor networks and the like 12:30:45 rigo: anyway, this is just a heads-up 12:30:52 ... will try to funnel them here 12:30:58 ... 12-14 EU projects in the area 12:31:03 ... large constituency 12:31:15 ... # of projects translates into 80M research funding 12:31:27 giles: I wanted this in 2002! It's been a long time. 12:31:47 No - I saw this presented in ISWC 2002 12:32:05 rigo: wonder whether we face same as in security area 12:32:09 ... lack of deployment there ... 12:32:10 (Semantic Web for WSDL) 12:32:21 ... need to see the social context 12:32:27 s/I wanted this/I saw this presented/ 12:32:32 topic: Best practices for privacy awareness 12:32:39 rigo: goes to the geolocation discussion 12:33:25 ... the geolocation spec has some guidance, but doesn't want policy 12:33:33 ... API, but further consideration should be taken elsewhere 12:34:04 rigo: how to attach policy information? 12:34:21 ... suggestion would be a PLING note on how to achieve awareness 12:34:33 ... think about EU directive 2002/58 12:34:43 ... ui must make user aware whenever geo location is exchanged 12:34:50 ... one-time permission that's currently targeted 12:34:55 ... will lead to clash in Europe 12:35:57 ... is this a good idea to have this best practices document? interest in contributing? 12:36:07 alissa: what do you think the impact would be? 12:36:17 ... anybody going to read it, use it, reference it, or similar to experience in geolocation WG 12:36:25 ... got impression that even if something was out there, it would be ignored 12:38:03 rigo: best practice makes it harder to just say "oh, we conform to W3C standards, it's all fine" 12:38:27 -Ashok_Malhotra 12:38:34 FYI, Some work on privacy awareness in social networks http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2009/Papers/ISWC/rmp-ws/paper.pdf 12:38:47 alissa: trade-off between trying to encourage implementers to be better vs trying to preserve well-rounded approach 12:38:56 Mobile phones get cyborg vision - interesting use-case - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8193951.stm 12:40:45 rigo: In this overall context, raised to geolocation folks that geopriv use case runs into a weird social problem 12:40:51 topic: the geopriv use case 12:42:06 rigo: geopriv has location info element with usage rules attached 12:42:08 ... if you use location info, you have to follow the usage rules 12:42:09 alissa: ack 12:42:24 rigo: frequent engineering mistake 12:42:42 ... customer takes general conditions into supermarket? 12:43:29 ... think it makes sense in the emergency calling situation, but not on Web in general 12:43:35 ... economic and social power to impose rules? 12:43:48 hannes: that comparison sounds like an engineering thinking problem 12:44:03 ... if you don't have any choices, then it doesn't make sense to provide any information that provides different alternatives 12:44:32 ... if company does not want to give choices, then policy object attached to protocol data doesn't help 12:44:36 q+ alissa 12:45:00 ... in the Internet, you have different shops -- you'd pick the one that fits needs best 12:45:10 ... that's precisely why you want to describe the shop's policy 12:45:49 alissa: the way that the Web paradigm has worked 12:45:53 ... is that none of the choices are satisfactory 12:46:12 ... not enough incentives 12:46:18 ... geopriv wants to reserve that 12:46:24 ... have users express what their preferences would be 12:46:28 ... might get rejected 12:46:36 ... use policy preferences as wedge to begin turn paradigm around 12:46:41 ... so choices are more in line with what users prefer 12:46:50 ... as far as geopriv use cases go 12:46:57 ... emergency service case is exception 12:47:05 ... because in that case policy is mostly irrelevant 12:47:17 ack a 12:47:33 hannes: didn't try to replicate P3P's work 12:47:44 q+ 12:48:04 ... these are access control policies 12:48:20 ... in certain cases, allow distribution of information, in certain cases, don't allow 12:48:25 ... almost like creative commons 12:48:28 ... no enforcement 12:48:54 ... malicious actors can do whatever 12:49:29 rigo: what I hear is similar to what the art 29 wp said to P3P 12:49:57 alissa: burden on service provider to define policy 12:50:02 ... with geopriv, that incentive is on user 12:50:07 ... user has every incentive 12:50:17 ... appreciate pain people have gone through 12:50:19 q? 12:50:32 ... "look, you still violated my policy" 12:50:42 ... on location indication, there's a law 12:50:51 ... if you can point at a violation, then you have a hook for enforcement 12:50:57 q? 12:51:07 ... unless service provider can't read policy 12:51:11 ack th 12:51:29 hannes: that's why we want to have this as part of the standard 12:52:49 rigo: management complexity? 12:56:11 +1 12:57:18 tlr: so, what if the location provider just asks the user? 12:57:37 alissa: I think that's a game changer 12:57:55 ... if you have the strong defaults anyway, the value diminishes 12:58:26 ... note different situation in the US 12:58:35 no I wanted to express agreement with Thomas 12:59:34 q+ 12:59:37 tlr: so, people just need to click one more "ok" button? 13:00:09 alissa: that's still preferable to clicking "ok" with no say over what the policy is at all 13:00:12 q? 13:00:43 giles: rather than approaching from the angle of people setting policy, one thing that might work better is to look at it as privacy preferences in social networks 13:00:47 ... that seems to have stronger incentives 13:01:16 ... set privacy preferences in a single place? 13:01:27 tlr: like fireeagle? 13:01:30 giles: yes 13:02:05 ... user has several different social applications 13:02:07 ... users are lazy, set preferences in a single place 13:02:09 ... and that's the policy you're talking about 13:02:13 ... set once, apply everywhere might work 13:02:39 rigo: question is who sets that first step 13:02:54 ... if within framework you're given options 13:03:05 ... that's a place where the geopriv model makes sense 13:03:26 giles: don't want to set preferences again 13:03:42 hannes: we're running out of time; would like to continue the discussion 13:03:55 rigo: umh, we're out of time for 3 minutes 13:03:57 ... mailing list? 13:04:04 hannes: dive deeper on separate call? 13:04:14 ... lots of latency to e-mail discussion 13:05:01 got to go... 13:05:06 rigo: let's go for focused discussion 13:05:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:05:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-pling-minutes.html tlr 13:05:24 -Hannes 13:05:35 rrsagent, make log public 13:05:48 adjourned 13:06:08 -Alissa 13:06:10 -Rigo 13:06:10 -Lalana_Kagal 13:06:12 -Giles 13:06:17 -Thomas 13:06:18 P3P_PLING()8:00AM has ended 13:06:20 Attendees were +1.703.405.aaaa, Thomas, +33.9.66.40.aabb, Rigo, +30281039aacc, Giles, Ashok_Malhotra, Alissa, +358.504.87aadd, Hannes, Lalana_Kagal 13:06:23 i/NESSI/tlr 13:06:28 i/NESSI/ScribeNick: tlr 13:06:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:06:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-pling-minutes.html tlr 13:12:05 i/GRID/ScribeNick: tlr 13:12:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:12:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-pling-minutes.html tlr 15:02:05 Zakim has left #pling 17:21:38 lkagal has joined #pling 19:44:56 lkagal has joined #pling