IRC log of mediafrag on 2009-08-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:03:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc
12:03:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:03:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #mediafrag
12:03:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
12:03:44 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see IA_MFWG()8:00AM already started
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Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
12:03:46 [trackbot]
Date: 12 August 2009
12:04:03 [Zakim]
+Yves
12:04:49 [Zakim]
+ +49.300.aabb
12:04:57 [raphael]
zakim, aabb is me
12:04:57 [Zakim]
+raphael; got it
12:05:31 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.801.2.aacc
12:06:13 [silvia]
aacc is silvia
12:06:20 [raphael]
zakim, aacc is silvia
12:06:20 [Zakim]
+silvia; got it
12:06:52 [Zakim]
+mhausenblas
12:07:15 [silvia]
1. ADMIN:
12:07:25 [silvia]
* Roll call
12:07:31 [silvia]
regrets from Guillaume and Conrad
12:07:44 [silvia]
* PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 15 & 22 July 2009 telecon:
12:07:51 [silvia]
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-mediafrag-minutes.html
12:07:51 [silvia]
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/22-mediafrag-minutes.html
12:07:55 [mhausenblas]
+1
12:07:56 [davy]
+1
12:07:58 [raphael]
+1
12:08:00 [erik]
+1
12:08:00 [Yves]
+1
12:08:12 [raphael]
s/1. ADMIN:/Topic: 1. ADMIN
12:08:21 [silvia]
* ACTION-92: Erik and Raphael to coordinate the writing of papers (ongoing ? re-raise around 15/09/09)
12:08:48 [silvia]
2. UC & REQUIREMENTS:
12:09:00 [silvia]
s/2. UC & REQUIREMENTS:/Topic: 2. UC & REQUIREMENTS
12:09:17 [silvia]
Zakim, mute me
12:09:17 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
12:09:25 [silvia]
* ACTION-68: Raphael to ask the Media Annotations WG to review our document
12:09:47 [silvia]
there are actions on the MA WG chair - Raphael will follow up
12:10:04 [silvia]
* To be discussed: Live Streaming UC (see Mail Silvia ? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0028.html)
12:10:07 [raphael]
I will also ask this Friday at the HCG telecon
12:10:08 [silvia]
Zakim, unmute me
12:10:08 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
12:11:27 [silvia]
there are actually two questions:
12:11:52 [Zakim]
-silvia
12:12:43 [Zakim]
+silvia
12:13:19 [silvia]
* procedural question - how to extend the use cases document
12:13:24 [silvia]
* technical discussion
12:13:39 [silvia]
raphael: likes the extension, but we need to clarify
12:13:48 [silvia]
... difference between query and hash
12:16:56 [silvia]
... need to have a complete specification
12:17:44 [silvia]
... procedure: just write the specification and commit it
12:18:02 [silvia]
ACTION: silvia to write specification for streaming use case
12:18:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-94 - Write specification for streaming use case [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-08-19].
12:19:27 [silvia]
general agreement to the use case
12:19:37 [silvia]
mhausenblas: did you have a mobile use case to it?
12:20:14 [silvia]
... there may be additional requirements around requirements on resources for media addressing
12:20:43 [silvia]
... mobile area is a good selling point for media fragment use
12:21:05 [silvia]
... I will keep this in mind an highlight it if we need more requirements around this
12:21:37 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
12:21:37 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
12:22:03 [silvia]
TOPIC: 3. SPECIFICATION
12:22:08 [silvia]
3.1 Syntax: (Yves)
12:22:16 [silvia]
* ACTION-49: Yves to Draft the HTTP-Range syntax for different units
12:22:16 [silvia]
(completing all the syntax for the two way handshake) (ongoing ? re-raise around 15/08/09, after IETF Meeting)
12:22:48 [raphael]
ACTION: michael to review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage
12:22:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-95 - Review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-08-19].
12:23:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
12:23:05 [silvia]
Yves: reports on IETF meeting and extension of HTTP-Range syntax
12:23:24 [raphael]
Chair: Erik
12:23:29 [raphael]
Scribe: Silvia
12:23:31 [silvia]
... progress is made and once it's agreed, it will be ratified by IANA
12:23:33 [raphael]
scribenick: silvia
12:23:46 [silvia]
... have more info by the end of the month
12:24:04 [raphael]
Present: Yves, Davy, Erik, Silvia, Michael, Raphael
12:24:05 [silvia]
(re-raise around 30/08/09)
12:24:06 [Yves]
s/will/should/
12:24:10 [raphael]
Regrets: Jack
12:24:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
12:24:21 [silvia]
* ACTION-93: Michael to revisit the TC and see which are affected by the temporal-optional-comma-decision
12:24:55 [silvia]
mhausenblas: was discussion on temporal-optional-comma-decision finalised?
12:25:35 [Yves]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0038.html
12:26:22 [silvia]
Franck made a counter-proposal
12:26:45 [silvia]
Yves: the trailing comma is not giving us anything useful
12:26:49 [silvia]
... I am fine with this proposal
12:27:25 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
12:27:25 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
12:28:23 [raphael]
we are discussion Frank's proposal: remove case 2 and 4 which are redondant
12:28:31 [silvia]
silvia: happy with this proposal - it removes the option to specify the same case in two different ways
12:28:38 [raphael]
+1 with this proposal
12:28:59 [silvia]
Yves is happy to change the grammar in the specification
12:29:17 [mhausenblas]
+1
12:29:19 [silvia]
ACTION: Yves to make change to temporal-optional-comma specification
12:29:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-96 - Make change to temporal-optional-comma specification [on Yves Lafon - due 2009-08-19].
12:29:20 [erik]
+1
12:29:35 [silvia]
we now have working group agreement on this specification
12:29:37 [silvia]
+1
12:29:48 [silvia]
Yves will reply to Franck
12:30:22 [silvia]
RESOLUTION: the working group agrees to the temporal-optional-comma specification proposed by Franck
12:30:29 [silvia]
3.2 UA Server HTTP Communication (Conrad/Raphael)
12:30:35 [silvia]
* ACTION-69: Conrad to draw a representation of the general structure of
12:30:36 [silvia]
a media resource, for streamable formats (ongoing ? re-raise around 01/09/09, when having had full discussion)
12:30:41 [silvia]
ongoing
12:30:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
12:31:01 [silvia]
raphael will follow up on this thread
12:31:10 [silvia]
4. TEST CASES: (Michael)
12:31:16 [silvia]
* See: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases
12:31:50 [silvia]
TC0002: empty time segment - npt
12:32:40 [silvia]
empty time segment
12:32:46 [silvia]
e.g. #t=0,0
12:32:57 [silvia]
416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred
12:33:03 [raphael]
+1
12:33:06 [silvia]
+1
12:33:13 [davy]
+1
12:33:14 [erik]
+1
12:33:29 [silvia]
RESOLUTION: TC0002 is approved
12:33:55 [silvia]
TC0003: empty space segment
12:34:04 [silvia]
empty space segment
12:34:11 [silvia]
e.g. #xywh=0,0,0,0
12:34:19 [silvia]
416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred
12:34:20 [raphael]
+1
12:34:22 [davy]
+1
12:34:23 [erik]
+1
12:34:29 [silvia]
+1
12:34:41 [silvia]
RESOLUTION: TC0003 is approved
12:34:48 [silvia]
TC0004: empty space segment - aspect
12:34:57 [silvia]
empty space segment - aspect
12:35:03 [silvia]
#aspect=0:0
12:35:13 [silvia]
416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred
12:36:36 [raphael]
Yves; no restriction on the values except they must be integers
12:36:56 [raphael]
... many ratio out there already, and more can be proposed later on
12:37:10 [raphael]
+1 for current proposal
12:37:11 [silvia]
Yves: capturing all the restrictions in the syntax itself is not necessary
12:37:35 [silvia]
+1
12:37:37 [davy]
+1
12:37:37 [erik]
+1
12:37:56 [silvia]
RESOLUTION: TC0004 is approved
12:38:03 [silvia]
--
12:38:03 [silvia]
TC0005: empty track segment
12:38:10 [silvia]
empty track segment
12:38:27 [silvia]
e.g. #track="" (I think)
12:38:33 [silvia]
416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred
12:38:50 [silvia]
Yves: should it not rather mean the whole resource?
12:39:05 [raphael]
I agree TC0005 is similar to TC0001
12:39:18 [silvia]
... selection is based on nothing defined, so it is similar to TC0001 and should be all
12:39:43 [silvia]
mhausenblas: is there an implementation yet?
12:39:47 [raphael]
Michael: search for implementation in the real world of the track thing. Does that exist at all?
12:39:49 [silvia]
yves: don't think so
12:40:11 [silvia]
... it's more a theoretical experiment right now
12:40:31 [silvia]
mhausenblas: if there are none, we are free to specify
12:40:45 [raphael]
For consistency, I would prefer to have the same behavior than TC0001
12:40:59 [raphael]
postpone ?
12:41:07 [silvia]
... I hesitate to propose to resolve it without more empirical experience
12:42:34 [raphael]
We can look at what DVD players do ... when a command parameter ask to play a dvd with an empty track name
12:42:48 [raphael]
... my guess is that the default language is used ... and not err
12:44:15 [silvia]
silvia: let's look at it from a programmer pov - if I composed it through a tick list and no tracks were ticked, I'd probably expect all tracks to be delivered
12:44:23 [raphael]
Correction, re TC0005
12:44:26 [raphael]
Proposal: 200, the entire representation is returned
12:44:29 [mhausenblas]
+1
12:44:32 [raphael]
+1
12:44:32 [erik]
+1
12:44:32 [silvia]
+1
12:44:33 [davy]
+1
12:44:57 [silvia]
--
12:44:57 [silvia]
TC0006: empty named segment
12:45:08 [silvia]
e.g. #id="" (I think)
12:45:15 [silvia]
currently: 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred
12:45:28 [silvia]
Yves: we should apply the same logic
12:45:31 [silvia]
general agreement
12:45:42 [raphael]
Proposal: 200, the entire representation is returned
12:45:45 [erik]
+1
12:45:49 [mhausenblas]
s/Yves: we should apply the same logic/Yves: we should apply the same logic as with TC0005
12:45:51 [raphael]
+1
12:45:52 [mhausenblas]
+1
12:45:55 [davy]
+1
12:46:29 [raphael]
Raphael notes that Silvia abstain and does not +1 on TC005
12:46:40 [raphael]
Raphael notes that Silvia abstain and does not +1 on TC0006 (oups)
12:47:03 [Yves]
we should probably revisit 07
12:47:23 [Yves]
as the definition of "empty" is different depending on the axis
12:48:14 [mhausenblas]
Yves, TC0007? Really?
12:48:22 [raphael]
Should we add more Test Cases when there is an ID (or a Track) ... but not defined in the video
12:48:28 [silvia]
silvia: is considering the comparison between empty id and and id that doesn't exist
12:49:25 [silvia]
.. but they are different
12:49:34 [silvia]
yves: we should add a test case for non-existing ID
12:49:51 [silvia]
... but when no ID is specified, it should refer to the full resource
12:49:55 [silvia]
--
12:50:01 [silvia]
revisit TC0007
12:50:26 [silvia]
Yves: since #t=, now refers to the full resource, we should revisit TC0007
12:50:32 [silvia]
#t=,&id='ID0'
12:50:33 [raphael]
What about if you replace your input by: "#xywh=0,0,0,0&t=,"
12:50:34 [raphael]
?
12:50:54 [silvia]
... should now refer to the named fragment ID0
12:51:52 [raphael]
For now, can we change the status of TC0007 from approved to un-reviewed ?
12:52:02 [silvia]
Proposal: 200, return representation for named fragment ID0
12:52:03 [raphael]
... but keep the previous agreement in the record
12:52:19 [silvia]
silvia: can we add the new proposal then?
12:52:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
12:53:21 [mhausenblas]
+1
12:53:23 [davy]
+1
12:53:26 [raphael]
+1
12:54:05 [mhausenblas]
adding TC10mwith #t=0,0&id='ID0'
12:54:45 [silvia]
Michael: add a new test case 10, which captures the former intention of TC0007
12:54:58 [mhausenblas]
and return 416 for TC10
12:55:03 [silvia]
this new test case will read #t=0,0&id='ID0'
12:55:09 [erik]
+1
12:55:12 [raphael]
+1 for michael proposal to add TC0010 ... I have also used before the example with an empty space segment
12:55:39 [silvia]
+1
12:55:56 [raphael]
same for non existing track name ... non existing id
12:56:08 [raphael]
so we need TC0011 and TC0012
12:56:18 [silvia]
adding a new test case TC0011 for non-existing id
12:56:34 [silvia]
e.g. #id="none"
12:56:42 [raphael]
RESOLUTION: TC0005 is approved
12:56:45 [raphael]
RESOLUTION: TC0006 is approved
12:56:50 [silvia]
reply: 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred
12:57:01 [mhausenblas]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:57:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
12:57:46 [silvia]
RESOLUTION: TC0005 is approved
12:57:49 [silvia]
RESOLUTION: TC0006 is approved
12:57:57 [silvia]
RESOLUTION: TC0007 to be changed as discussed
12:58:10 [mhausenblas]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:58:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
12:58:15 [silvia]
RESOLUTION: TC010, TC011, TC012 to be added as discussed
12:58:32 [silvia]
erik: we have run out of time
12:58:46 [Zakim]
-thierry
12:58:49 [Zakim]
-Yves
12:58:51 [Zakim]
-silvia
12:58:53 [Zakim]
-mhausenblas
12:58:54 [silvia]
...thanks everyone
12:58:55 [Zakim]
-Erik
12:58:58 [davy]
davy has left #mediafrag
12:59:01 [mhausenblas]
great job, silvia!
12:59:04 [Zakim]
-raphael
12:59:05 [Zakim]
IA_MFWG()8:00AM has ended
12:59:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were thierry, +329331aaaa, Yves, Erik, Davy, +49.300.aabb, raphael, +61.2.801.2.aacc, silvia, mhausenblas
12:59:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
12:59:14 [mhausenblas]
+1 to Yves proposal!!!!
12:59:15 [mhausenblas]
;)
12:59:47 [raphael]
bye, zakim
12:59:54 [raphael]
s/raphael/yves
12:59:56 [raphael]
:-)
13:00:07 [raphael]
zakim, bye
13:00:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #mediafrag
13:00:39 [raphael]
Topic: AOB
13:00:41 [raphael]
none
13:00:43 [raphael]
meeting adjourned
13:00:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
13:01:41 [silvia]
actually: raphael - TC0005 and TC0006 are not approved, but are to be changed as discussed
13:01:44 [raphael]
RRSAgent, bye
13:01:44 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-actions.rdf :
13:01:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: silvia to write specification for streaming use case [1]
13:01:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc#T12-18-02
13:01:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael to review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage [2]
13:01:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc#T12-22-48
13:01:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Yves to make change to temporal-optional-comma specification [3]
13:01:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc#T12-29-19
13:01:46 [silvia]
that's why I didn't write them ike that