12:03:40 RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag 12:03:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc 12:03:42 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:03:42 Zakim has joined #mediafrag 12:03:44 Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG 12:03:44 ok, trackbot, I see IA_MFWG()8:00AM already started 12:03:45 Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference 12:03:46 Date: 12 August 2009 12:04:03 +Yves 12:04:49 + +49.300.aabb 12:04:57 zakim, aabb is me 12:04:57 +raphael; got it 12:05:31 + +61.2.801.2.aacc 12:06:13 aacc is silvia 12:06:20 zakim, aacc is silvia 12:06:20 +silvia; got it 12:06:52 +mhausenblas 12:07:15 1. ADMIN: 12:07:25 * Roll call 12:07:31 regrets from Guillaume and Conrad 12:07:44 * PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 15 & 22 July 2009 telecon: 12:07:51 http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-mediafrag-minutes.html 12:07:51 http://www.w3.org/2009/07/22-mediafrag-minutes.html 12:07:55 +1 12:07:56 +1 12:07:58 +1 12:08:00 +1 12:08:00 +1 12:08:12 s/1. ADMIN:/Topic: 1. ADMIN 12:08:21 * ACTION-92: Erik and Raphael to coordinate the writing of papers (ongoing ? re-raise around 15/09/09) 12:08:48 2. UC & REQUIREMENTS: 12:09:00 s/2. UC & REQUIREMENTS:/Topic: 2. UC & REQUIREMENTS 12:09:17 Zakim, mute me 12:09:17 silvia should now be muted 12:09:25 * ACTION-68: Raphael to ask the Media Annotations WG to review our document 12:09:47 there are actions on the MA WG chair - Raphael will follow up 12:10:04 * To be discussed: Live Streaming UC (see Mail Silvia ? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0028.html) 12:10:07 I will also ask this Friday at the HCG telecon 12:10:08 Zakim, unmute me 12:10:08 silvia should no longer be muted 12:11:27 there are actually two questions: 12:11:52 -silvia 12:12:43 +silvia 12:13:19 * procedural question - how to extend the use cases document 12:13:24 * technical discussion 12:13:39 raphael: likes the extension, but we need to clarify 12:13:48 ... difference between query and hash 12:16:56 ... need to have a complete specification 12:17:44 ... procedure: just write the specification and commit it 12:18:02 ACTION: silvia to write specification for streaming use case 12:18:03 Created ACTION-94 - Write specification for streaming use case [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2009-08-19]. 12:19:27 general agreement to the use case 12:19:37 mhausenblas: did you have a mobile use case to it? 12:20:14 ... there may be additional requirements around requirements on resources for media addressing 12:20:43 ... mobile area is a good selling point for media fragment use 12:21:05 ... I will keep this in mind an highlight it if we need more requirements around this 12:21:37 zakim, mute me 12:21:37 silvia should now be muted 12:22:03 TOPIC: 3. SPECIFICATION 12:22:08 3.1 Syntax: (Yves) 12:22:16 * ACTION-49: Yves to Draft the HTTP-Range syntax for different units 12:22:16 (completing all the syntax for the two way handshake) (ongoing ? re-raise around 15/08/09, after IETF Meeting) 12:22:48 ACTION: michael to review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage 12:22:48 Created ACTION-95 - Review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-08-19]. 12:23:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 12:23:05 Yves: reports on IETF meeting and extension of HTTP-Range syntax 12:23:24 Chair: Erik 12:23:29 Scribe: Silvia 12:23:31 ... progress is made and once it's agreed, it will be ratified by IANA 12:23:33 scribenick: silvia 12:23:46 ... have more info by the end of the month 12:24:04 Present: Yves, Davy, Erik, Silvia, Michael, Raphael 12:24:05 (re-raise around 30/08/09) 12:24:06 s/will/should/ 12:24:10 Regrets: Jack 12:24:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 12:24:21 * ACTION-93: Michael to revisit the TC and see which are affected by the temporal-optional-comma-decision 12:24:55 mhausenblas: was discussion on temporal-optional-comma-decision finalised? 12:25:35 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0038.html 12:26:22 Franck made a counter-proposal 12:26:45 Yves: the trailing comma is not giving us anything useful 12:26:49 ... I am fine with this proposal 12:27:25 zakim, unmute me 12:27:25 silvia should no longer be muted 12:28:23 we are discussion Frank's proposal: remove case 2 and 4 which are redondant 12:28:31 silvia: happy with this proposal - it removes the option to specify the same case in two different ways 12:28:38 +1 with this proposal 12:28:59 Yves is happy to change the grammar in the specification 12:29:17 +1 12:29:19 ACTION: Yves to make change to temporal-optional-comma specification 12:29:19 Created ACTION-96 - Make change to temporal-optional-comma specification [on Yves Lafon - due 2009-08-19]. 12:29:20 +1 12:29:35 we now have working group agreement on this specification 12:29:37 +1 12:29:48 Yves will reply to Franck 12:30:22 RESOLUTION: the working group agrees to the temporal-optional-comma specification proposed by Franck 12:30:29 3.2 UA Server HTTP Communication (Conrad/Raphael) 12:30:35 * ACTION-69: Conrad to draw a representation of the general structure of 12:30:36 a media resource, for streamable formats (ongoing ? re-raise around 01/09/09, when having had full discussion) 12:30:41 ongoing 12:30:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 12:31:01 raphael will follow up on this thread 12:31:10 4. TEST CASES: (Michael) 12:31:16 * See: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases 12:31:50 TC0002: empty time segment - npt 12:32:40 empty time segment 12:32:46 e.g. #t=0,0 12:32:57 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred 12:33:03 +1 12:33:06 +1 12:33:13 +1 12:33:14 +1 12:33:29 RESOLUTION: TC0002 is approved 12:33:55 TC0003: empty space segment 12:34:04 empty space segment 12:34:11 e.g. #xywh=0,0,0,0 12:34:19 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred 12:34:20 +1 12:34:22 +1 12:34:23 +1 12:34:29 +1 12:34:41 RESOLUTION: TC0003 is approved 12:34:48 TC0004: empty space segment - aspect 12:34:57 empty space segment - aspect 12:35:03 #aspect=0:0 12:35:13 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred 12:36:36 Yves; no restriction on the values except they must be integers 12:36:56 ... many ratio out there already, and more can be proposed later on 12:37:10 +1 for current proposal 12:37:11 Yves: capturing all the restrictions in the syntax itself is not necessary 12:37:35 +1 12:37:37 +1 12:37:37 +1 12:37:56 RESOLUTION: TC0004 is approved 12:38:03 -- 12:38:03 TC0005: empty track segment 12:38:10 empty track segment 12:38:27 e.g. #track="" (I think) 12:38:33 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred 12:38:50 Yves: should it not rather mean the whole resource? 12:39:05 I agree TC0005 is similar to TC0001 12:39:18 ... selection is based on nothing defined, so it is similar to TC0001 and should be all 12:39:43 mhausenblas: is there an implementation yet? 12:39:47 Michael: search for implementation in the real world of the track thing. Does that exist at all? 12:39:49 yves: don't think so 12:40:11 ... it's more a theoretical experiment right now 12:40:31 mhausenblas: if there are none, we are free to specify 12:40:45 For consistency, I would prefer to have the same behavior than TC0001 12:40:59 postpone ? 12:41:07 ... I hesitate to propose to resolve it without more empirical experience 12:42:34 We can look at what DVD players do ... when a command parameter ask to play a dvd with an empty track name 12:42:48 ... my guess is that the default language is used ... and not err 12:44:15 silvia: let's look at it from a programmer pov - if I composed it through a tick list and no tracks were ticked, I'd probably expect all tracks to be delivered 12:44:23 Correction, re TC0005 12:44:26 Proposal: 200, the entire representation is returned 12:44:29 +1 12:44:32 +1 12:44:32 +1 12:44:32 +1 12:44:33 +1 12:44:57 -- 12:44:57 TC0006: empty named segment 12:45:08 e.g. #id="" (I think) 12:45:15 currently: 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred 12:45:28 Yves: we should apply the same logic 12:45:31 general agreement 12:45:42 Proposal: 200, the entire representation is returned 12:45:45 +1 12:45:49 s/Yves: we should apply the same logic/Yves: we should apply the same logic as with TC0005 12:45:51 +1 12:45:52 +1 12:45:55 +1 12:46:29 Raphael notes that Silvia abstain and does not +1 on TC005 12:46:40 Raphael notes that Silvia abstain and does not +1 on TC0006 (oups) 12:47:03 we should probably revisit 07 12:47:23 as the definition of "empty" is different depending on the axis 12:48:14 Yves, TC0007? Really? 12:48:22 Should we add more Test Cases when there is an ID (or a Track) ... but not defined in the video 12:48:28 silvia: is considering the comparison between empty id and and id that doesn't exist 12:49:25 .. but they are different 12:49:34 yves: we should add a test case for non-existing ID 12:49:51 ... but when no ID is specified, it should refer to the full resource 12:49:55 -- 12:50:01 revisit TC0007 12:50:26 Yves: since #t=, now refers to the full resource, we should revisit TC0007 12:50:32 #t=,&id='ID0' 12:50:33 What about if you replace your input by: "#xywh=0,0,0,0&t=," 12:50:34 ? 12:50:54 ... should now refer to the named fragment ID0 12:51:52 For now, can we change the status of TC0007 from approved to un-reviewed ? 12:52:02 Proposal: 200, return representation for named fragment ID0 12:52:03 ... but keep the previous agreement in the record 12:52:19 silvia: can we add the new proposal then? 12:52:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 12:53:21 +1 12:53:23 +1 12:53:26 +1 12:54:05 adding TC10mwith #t=0,0&id='ID0' 12:54:45 Michael: add a new test case 10, which captures the former intention of TC0007 12:54:58 and return 416 for TC10 12:55:03 this new test case will read #t=0,0&id='ID0' 12:55:09 +1 12:55:12 +1 for michael proposal to add TC0010 ... I have also used before the example with an empty space segment 12:55:39 +1 12:55:56 same for non existing track name ... non existing id 12:56:08 so we need TC0011 and TC0012 12:56:18 adding a new test case TC0011 for non-existing id 12:56:34 e.g. #id="none" 12:56:42 RESOLUTION: TC0005 is approved 12:56:45 RESOLUTION: TC0006 is approved 12:56:50 reply: 416, would yield an empty resource, hence client must have erred 12:57:01 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:57:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas 12:57:46 RESOLUTION: TC0005 is approved 12:57:49 RESOLUTION: TC0006 is approved 12:57:57 RESOLUTION: TC0007 to be changed as discussed 12:58:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:58:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas 12:58:15 RESOLUTION: TC010, TC011, TC012 to be added as discussed 12:58:32 erik: we have run out of time 12:58:46 -thierry 12:58:49 -Yves 12:58:51 -silvia 12:58:53 -mhausenblas 12:58:54 ...thanks everyone 12:58:55 -Erik 12:58:58 davy has left #mediafrag 12:59:01 great job, silvia! 12:59:04 -raphael 12:59:05 IA_MFWG()8:00AM has ended 12:59:06 Attendees were thierry, +329331aaaa, Yves, Erik, Davy, +49.300.aabb, raphael, +61.2.801.2.aacc, silvia, mhausenblas 12:59:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 12:59:14 +1 to Yves proposal!!!! 12:59:15 ;) 12:59:47 bye, zakim 12:59:54 s/raphael/yves 12:59:56 :-) 13:00:07 zakim, bye 13:00:07 Zakim has left #mediafrag 13:00:39 Topic: AOB 13:00:41 none 13:00:43 meeting adjourned 13:00:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 13:01:41 actually: raphael - TC0005 and TC0006 are not approved, but are to be changed as discussed 13:01:44 RRSAgent, bye 13:01:44 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-actions.rdf : 13:01:44 ACTION: silvia to write specification for streaming use case [1] 13:01:44 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc#T12-18-02 13:01:44 ACTION: michael to review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage [2] 13:01:44 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc#T12-22-48 13:01:44 ACTION: Yves to make change to temporal-optional-comma specification [3] 13:01:44 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc#T12-29-19 13:01:46 that's why I didn't write them ike that