15:57:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:57:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-CSS-irc
15:57:42 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
15:58:13 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
15:58:20 <dbaron> Zakim, this is style
15:58:20 <Zakim> ok, dbaron; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
15:58:24 <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:58:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see bradk, plinss, dsinger, [Microsoft]
15:58:40 <dsinger_> Zakim, mute me
15:58:40 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:58:46 <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:54 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
16:00:00 <dsinger_> Zakim, i am dsinger
16:00:01 <Zakim> ok, dsinger_, I now associate you with dsinger
16:00:22 <dsinger_> Zakim, mute me
16:00:22 <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
16:00:59 <dsinger_> Welcome to the 12 step group Confusing Specs Support
16:01:16 <Zakim> +Bert
16:01:51 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:02:01 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
16:02:01 <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
16:02:02 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has changed the topic to: Confusing Specs Support group
16:03:37 <sgalineau> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
16:03:37 <Zakim> +sylvaing, arronei; got it
16:03:46 <Zakim> +hyatt
16:04:02 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:04:04 <Zakim> +??P16
16:04:24 <Zakim> +Hakon_Lie
16:04:27 <dbaron> Zakim, ??P16 is fantasai
16:04:27 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:04:41 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:05:25 <ChrisL> zakim, help
16:05:25 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
16:05:28 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
16:05:29 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
16:05:31 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
16:05:34 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
16:05:36 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
16:05:39 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
16:05:41 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
16:05:43 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
16:05:46 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
16:05:49 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:05:50 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
16:05:52 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
16:05:54 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
16:05:56 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
16:05:57 <bradk> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:58 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
16:06:00 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
16:06:02 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/12/09 02:16:52 $
16:06:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see bradk, plinss, dsinger (muted), [Microsoft], Bert, [Mozilla], hyatt, fantasai, Hakon_Lie, ChrisL
16:06:07 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
16:06:07 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
16:06:35 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #css
16:06:44 <fantasai> RRSAgent: here
16:06:44 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-CSS-irc#T16-06-44
16:06:58 <fantasai> Zakim, who is here?
16:06:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see bradk, plinss, dsinger (muted), [Microsoft], Bert, [Mozilla], hyatt, fantasai, Hakon_Lie, ChrisL
16:06:58 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
16:07:01 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
16:07:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see fantasai, ChrisL, howcome, sgalineau, dsinger_, bradk, RRSAgent, Zakim, oyvinds, hyatt, dbaron, anne2, myakura, krijnh, karl, CesarAcebal, Lachy, dsinger, plinss_,
16:07:04 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
16:07:05 <Zakim> ... shepazu, Hixie, plinss, Bert, trackbot
16:07:41 <fantasai> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JulSep/0054.html
16:07:43 <fantasai> Topic: Gradients
16:08:06 <fantasai> Hyatt: Now that we have css3-image module, it seems like gradients work that is implemented in Mozilla and WebKit would fit well in there
16:08:18 <Zakim> + +49.238.aaaa
16:08:20 <fantasai> Hyatt: Both Robert and I saw that draft and thought it would be a logical fit
16:08:32 <fantasai> Brad: Think it's a good idea
16:08:42 <fantasai> fantasai: I had a blank Gradients section in there before publication
16:08:55 <fantasai> Hyatt: Mozilla and WebKit's syntax are very different
16:09:03 <fantasai> Hyatt: So Robert and I need to start working on text for it
16:09:20 <CesarAcebal> zakim, +49.238.aaaa is me
16:09:20 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
16:09:30 <fantasai> ChrisL: Looking at Mozilla page, can't see it.
16:09:36 <fantasai> dbaron: Need to use 3.6 alpha
16:09:59 <fantasai> howcome: You can also do gradients with inset box-shadows, but this is a better solution
16:10:07 <dsinger_> Hm. If Chris can't see it, what is the fallback?
16:11:26 <fantasai> fantasai: I think the syntax is very verbose. Is it verbose because we need room for extensions, or is it verbose because no one's bothered to simplify it yet
16:12:14 <fantasai> Bert: I'm strongly opposed to gradients in CSS. you can do this with background images
16:12:51 <fantasai> ?: It gives a chance to reduce bandwidth greatly.
16:12:55 <dbaron> s/?:/hyatt:/
16:13:14 <dbaron> hyatt: Web inspector was able to remove 40 images (or was it 40K images?)
16:13:16 <fantasai> Bert: Next people are going to reimplement SVG in CSS, I don't want to get there
16:13:40 <fantasai> Sylvain: IE has proved that people go through great lengths to reproduce features, and they hate it
16:14:11 <hyatt> dbaron: 40 images
16:14:15 <fantasai> howcome: It's reducing use of images, CSS is good at that
16:14:43 <ChrisL> I don't think this is reimplementing the whole of SVG. Its a fairly limited piece of functionality
16:14:43 <fantasai> Bert: ... [couldn't catch it]
16:14:52 <dsinger_> Hm. Would Bert prefer an image 'codec' that is a generator?
16:14:58 <fantasai> howcome: I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think gradients are that far out there
16:15:33 <fantasai> Bert: Next people want circles and ovals etc. Each one takes 5 minutes, but it takes a long time to learn the whole thing
16:15:34 <Zakim> -bradk
16:15:45 <ChrisL> It doesn't seem to be particularly complex to me
16:15:49 <fantasai> ChrisL: The boat has already sailed, CSS is no longer simple. It takes a lot of effort to understand real-world style sheets
16:16:32 <Zakim> +bradk
16:16:52 <fantasai> ChrisL: you could do this with images or data URIs
16:17:00 <fantasai> ChrisL: But the syntax gets very verbose
16:17:08 <fantasai> ChrisL: So I can see the motivation for this
16:17:25 <fantasai> howcome: Need vector representations for this
16:17:47 <fantasai> ChrisL: And in Opera you have SVG support so you can do vector versions of complicated things
16:18:02 <fantasai> ChrisL: This seems like low-hanging fruit, if you just want a simple gradient
16:18:52 <fantasai> Brad: I think gradients are a common design element and to be able to specify one ... has a lot of merit
16:19:52 <fantasai> Hyatt: They're in the same category as shadows and rounded corners
16:20:03 <fantasai> Hyatt: It's a common effect
16:20:25 <fantasai> Peter: I think gradients should be usable anywhere you can use a color
16:20:27 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:20:35 <fantasai> fantasai: That won't work. Colors are 0D, gradients are 2D
16:20:43 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:20:49 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:20:49 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:21:08 <fantasai> ChrisL: Yes, some places that don't have a geometric region, these need to have colors not gradients
16:21:41 <fantasai> dbaron: Also, e.g. 'color' is inherited
16:22:33 <fantasai> Peter: Agreed, don't need to expand it everywhere now, but will want to apply it other places e.g. text
16:22:48 <fantasai> Hyatt: You can do that in webkit by specifying a clip for the text
16:22:58 <fantasai> dbaron: In Gecko you can probably do it with filters
16:22:58 <Zakim> -bradk
16:23:06 <dbaron> ... filters or clip-path
16:23:17 <fantasai> ChrisL: ...
16:23:23 <Zakim> +bradk
16:23:27 <fantasai> Hyatt: That's why we want it as an image type, you can use it for many different things
16:23:50 <bradk> my phone connection keeps dropping. sorry.
16:24:04 <fantasai> s/.../I would be concerned if we add syntax for gradients 3 ways for 3 different use cases.. if we add it differently for backgrounds and foreground/
16:25:13 <fantasai> ChrisL: Hard to use with border-image.
16:25:27 <dbaron> Ah right... 'mask' was the third of those SVG properties ('clip-path', 'filter', 'mask')
16:25:39 <fantasai> ChrisL: Can't say, e.g. use this gradient for the top borde,r this for the bottom, etc.
16:26:15 <dbaron> ?: Also, mozilla applies 'background-repeat' to gradients in terms of repeating the gradient rather than just tiling an image.
16:26:15 <fantasai> Hyatt: With gradients in CSS you can also animate them
16:26:20 <fantasai> s/?/Hyatt
16:26:45 <fantasai> fantasai: The problem with that is that it's specific to backgrounds, hard to make it generic if it's not a rectangular region
16:26:51 <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:26:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, [Microsoft], Bert, [Mozilla], hyatt, fantasai, Hakon_Lie, ChrisL, CesarAcebal, [Apple], bradk
16:26:53 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
16:26:53 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
16:26:54 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has dbaron
16:26:59 <fantasai> Peter: Straw poll on adding gradients?
16:27:16 <fantasai> dsinger: Would like proposers to come up with an exact proposal
16:28:29 <fantasai> fantasai: Should have a resolution on whether or not we are receptive to gradients
16:28:46 <fantasai> fantasai: That way they know the whole thing won't get thrown out because we decide its out of scope or something
16:29:10 <ChrisL> +1 to add to images module. "So what exactly is a gradient in CSS? It is an image, usable anywhere that image URLs were used before. That’s right… anywhere"
16:29:26 <fantasai> Sylvain: You could create gradient patterns with Canvas, turn it into a data URI. Probably how people would do it today
16:29:54 <fantasai> Hyatt wants to copy language from HTML5(?)
16:30:20 <fantasai> ChrisL: Can you get elliptical gradients?
16:30:53 <dbaron> ChrisL, well, the non-background uses actually need to define a size better...
16:31:12 <fantasai> Peter: Straw poll
16:31:15 <fantasai> Sylvain: yes
16:31:18 <fantasai> Arron: yes
16:31:20 <fantasai> Bert: no
16:31:22 <fantasai> dbaron: yes
16:31:28 <fantasai> Hyatt: in favor
16:31:30 <fantasai> Brad: in favor
16:31:31 <Zakim> -bradk
16:31:33 <fantasai> fantasai: abstain
16:31:52 <anne2> anne2: in favor
16:31:53 <fantasai> howcome: We should be careful not to do too much, but I think this is one of the things we should do
16:31:59 <Zakim> +bradk
16:32:00 <fantasai> Chris: in favor
16:32:33 <fantasai> dsinger: abstain. Think we should look at what we're doing and find the edges of where we want to go, but I think we should go forward here
16:32:37 <fantasai> Peter: in favor
16:33:08 <fantasai> Peter: Only seeing one objection, so I'd say go ahead and draft a proposal
16:33:43 <hyatt> yes it should, but we use different syntax from mozilla
16:33:51 <hyatt> yeah :)
16:34:12 <hyatt> -zomg-dont-implement-me-yet-gradient(...)
16:34:35 <Bert> (I want to put my H2 vertically, I want to hyphenate words, I want to rotate the F as in Finnegan's Wake, I want the OBJECT element to be as high as it s content... so many things that you need CSS for. Gradients is frivolous and thus harmful. :-( )
16:35:19 <fantasai> Topic: Media Queries
16:35:49 <hyatt> don't everyone talk at once... ;)
16:36:17 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jun/0536.html
16:36:21 <fantasai> Bert: Original question was that Media Queries spec replaces part of the CSS2.1 grammar
16:36:35 <fantasai> Bert: But the "this part" doesn't refer to something correct. Can't just replace that production
16:37:03 <fantasai> Bert: one proposal I made, that Anne agrees with, is to rewrite the grammar in Appendix G of CSS2.1 so that it contains a single token that Media Queries can easily replace
16:37:07 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Aug/0124.html
16:37:12 <fantasai> Bert: new media_query_list token from Appendix G
16:37:28 <dbaron> This proposal sounds good to me, except I wonder if it might be clearer if the CSS 2.1 production had a different name so that it wouldn't look like CSS 2.1 had media queries.
16:37:29 <fantasai> Bert: That is the only thing that needs to be changed, in 2 places: Media Queries Module and CSS2.1 Appendix G
16:37:41 <fantasai> Bert: Also dbaron raised another issue in response to this one
16:37:54 <fantasai> Bert: Whether @media should allow no media query at all, e.g. @media { }
16:37:58 <fantasai> Bert: That I don't think we should do
16:38:43 <CesarAcebal> Oops, I'm afraid I had my microphone mute when I answered the pool, sorry  (it's the first time I use it). ;) Anyway, my position about gradients was "abstain", since I mostly agree with Bert, but I have no a clear position about what to keep and what to get rid of.
16:38:51 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm pretty sure we discussed this already and decided we don't want to allow @media { }
16:39:22 <fantasai> Bert: In response to dbaron's comment on IRC, maybe we should have media_list instead of media_query_list
16:39:31 <fantasai> Peter: So two items, one changing the grammar for this fix
16:39:38 <fantasai> Peter: Any objections?
16:39:59 <fantasai> Bert: Changing to this grammar is not substantive for 2.1, btw, it just makes the grammar a little verbose but it defines exactly the same language
16:40:06 <fantasai> fantasai: I agree with the change
16:40:25 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept Bert's proposal to change grammar, using media_list instead of media_query_list
16:40:42 <Zakim> -bradk
16:40:45 <oyvinds> I remember finding the terminology "production A: B replaces C: D" slightly confusing, but with the right wording media_list probably makes more sense
16:40:52 <fantasai> Peter: Second item, allowing @media { } ... fantasai says we have a previous resolution not to accept that, is everyone ok with that?
16:41:00 <fantasai> ChrisL: yeah, seems good
16:41:07 <Zakim> +bradk
16:41:18 <fantasai> RESOLVED: @media { } invalid
16:41:43 <fantasai> dbaron: Still a question as to whether other uses of media queries make an empty media query list invalid
16:41:52 <fantasai> dbaron: Right now it defines emtpy media query list as matching everything
16:42:09 <fantasai> dbaron: So I think that's relevant for things like <link rel="stylesheet" media="">
16:42:23 <fantasai> Bert: That's currently an error
16:42:42 <anne2> My suggestion is to remove that from Media Queries, make it an error, and require UAs to treat media="" as media="all"
16:42:43 <fantasai> dbaron: If you combine Media Queries with HTML5 that says media attr takes media queries, that's no longer true
16:43:06 <anne2> (the latter would require a change to HTML5, that Ian is willing to make)
16:43:18 <dbaron> anne2, ok, that's fine with me
16:43:43 <dbaron> anne2, as long as somebody tells me if there are any other cases that should have the same behavior as media="" in HTML (on link and style, I presume)
16:43:57 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish updated CR draft of Media Queries with these changes
16:44:13 <anne2> dbaron, <?xml-stylesheet?> and presumably <svg:style>
16:44:13 <dbaron> Of course, I think I have a whole bunch of tests that depended on the other behavior...
16:44:23 <fantasai> Topic: Shadow vs Layout
16:44:37 <anne2> dbaron, the behavior for <style media> should not change, just conformance
16:45:39 <fantasai> fantasai: I think we have agreement that shadows not affect layout for box-shadow
16:45:58 <fantasai> fantasai: I know Hyatt wanted somem comprehensive text on overflow, but can't fit it into css3-background
16:46:43 <fantasai> Hyatt: Also, should say that it applies to border-image
16:47:24 <fantasai> Hyatt: Brad had an example where the border-image was used to create shadows
16:47:41 <fantasai> Hyatt: Don't want scrollbars, especially horizontal scrollbars
16:48:11 <fantasai> Brad: It's not just the scrollbar appearing, but also extra whitespace appearing b/c shadow is pushing out the edge of the container
16:48:26 <fantasai> Hyatt: I was the only one on the list that objected to this, but I think mostly I was being a lazy implementor
16:48:55 <fantasai> ChrisL: Particularly for horizontal scrollbars, it would be fairly easy to arrange things so they fit but now you add a drop-shadow and it doesn't fit anymore
16:49:27 <fantasai> fantasai: Just wanted to understand reasoning, not objecting
16:49:35 <fantasai> fantasai: Are margins included in scrollable area?
16:49:42 <Zakim> -bradk
16:49:45 <fantasai> Hyatt: Varies from browser to browser, whether child margins are included in scrollable area
16:49:52 <fantasai> Peter: Have a higher-level concern about this
16:50:01 <fantasai> Peter: Agree that visual effects should never affect layout
16:50:13 <fantasai> Peter: Concern is that presence or absence of scrollbar afffects layout
16:50:20 <Zakim> +bradk
16:50:32 <fantasai> Peter: What about scrolling mechanism that doesn't affect layout?
16:50:41 <fantasai> Hyatt: Webkit has that, scrollbars that appear over content
16:51:18 <Bert> (We have marquee for overflow, too.)
16:52:00 <fantasai> fantasai: Discussion on www-style said that even if you already have scrollbars, don't want to be able to scroll further to be able to see these effects
16:52:08 <fantasai> Peter: Don't see why not
16:52:11 <Zakim> -bradk
16:52:55 <bradk> my connection sucks
16:53:06 <Zakim> +bradk
16:53:15 <oyvinds> animating/pulsating shadows would cause the scrollbar "thumb" to animate too
16:53:42 <fantasai> fantasai attempts to summarize the discussion on www-style
16:54:24 <fantasai> fantasai: It's not about whether scrollbars appear or disappear, shadows should just be clipped
16:55:57 <fantasai> fantasai: they should not increase the size of the scrollable area
16:56:46 <fantasai> Peter: I think whether it increase the scrollable area should be a UA decision
16:57:33 <fantasai> bradk, why is your connection so crappy?
16:58:16 <fantasai> Hyatt: Want these two concepts of overflow documented in a spec
16:58:24 <fantasai> fantasai: Has to be in CSS3 module, too much for 2.1
16:59:23 <fantasai> e.g. css3-box
17:00:02 <fantasai> Hyatt: add a sentence for border-image
17:00:50 <fantasai> fantasai: I propose adding Brad Kemper as co-editor of css3-background
17:01:00 <fantasai> agreed
17:01:02 <Zakim> -Hakon_Lie
17:01:03 <fantasai> meeting closed
17:01:03 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:01:03 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
17:01:04 <Zakim> -hyatt
17:01:05 <Zakim> -bradk
17:01:06 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:01:07 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:12 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:13 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:01:15 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:01:16 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
17:01:16 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:17 <Zakim> Attendees were bradk, plinss, dsinger, Bert, dbaron, sylvaing, arronei, hyatt, Hakon_Lie, fantasai, ChrisL, CesarAcebal
17:33:04 <dbaron> anne2, so if empty media lists are supposed to be valid for every known use of media queries except @media... maybe @media should be the one where the spec makes an exception, rather than making exceptions for all the others?
17:34:21 <anne2> the idea was to make them invalid (like in HTML4) but require UAs to treat them as all because of compat
17:35:04 <anne2> I don't feel strongly either way
17:36:02 <dbaron> ah, ok
17:36:29 <dbaron> well, code-wise, I might make the @media case the exception
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