IRC log of CSS on 2009-08-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:57:36 [RRSAgent]
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15:57:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:57:42 [bradk]
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15:58:13 [dsinger_]
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15:58:20 [dbaron]
Zakim, this is style
15:58:20 [Zakim]
ok, dbaron; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
15:58:24 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:58:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bradk, plinss, dsinger, [Microsoft]
15:58:40 [dsinger_]
Zakim, mute me
15:58:40 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:58:46 [dbaron]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:58:54 [sgalineau]
sgalineau has joined #css
16:00:00 [dsinger_]
Zakim, i am dsinger
16:00:01 [Zakim]
ok, dsinger_, I now associate you with dsinger
16:00:22 [dsinger_]
Zakim, mute me
16:00:22 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
16:00:59 [dsinger_]
Welcome to the 12 step group Confusing Specs Support
16:01:16 [Zakim]
16:01:51 [Zakim]
16:02:01 [dbaron]
Zakim, [Mozilla] has dbaron
16:02:01 [Zakim]
+dbaron; got it
16:02:02 [dsinger_]
dsinger_ has changed the topic to: Confusing Specs Support group
16:03:37 [sgalineau]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
16:03:37 [Zakim]
+sylvaing, arronei; got it
16:03:46 [Zakim]
16:04:02 [howcome]
howcome has joined #css
16:04:04 [Zakim]
16:04:24 [Zakim]
16:04:27 [dbaron]
Zakim, ??P16 is fantasai
16:04:27 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:04:41 [ChrisL]
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16:05:25 [ChrisL]
zakim, help
16:05:25 [Zakim]
Please refer to for more detailed help.
16:05:28 [Zakim]
Some of the commands I know are:
16:05:29 [Zakim]
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
16:05:31 [Zakim]
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
16:05:34 [Zakim]
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
16:05:36 [Zakim]
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
16:05:39 [Zakim]
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
16:05:41 [Zakim]
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
16:05:43 [Zakim]
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
16:05:46 [Zakim]
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
16:05:49 [Zakim]
16:05:50 [Zakim]
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
16:05:52 [Zakim]
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
16:05:54 [Zakim]
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
16:05:56 [Zakim]
list conferences - reports the active conferences
16:05:57 [bradk]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:58 [Zakim]
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
16:06:00 [Zakim]
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
16:06:02 [Zakim]
I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/12/09 02:16:52 $
16:06:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bradk, plinss, dsinger (muted), [Microsoft], Bert, [Mozilla], hyatt, fantasai, Hakon_Lie, ChrisL
16:06:07 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
16:06:07 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has dbaron
16:06:35 [fantasai]
fantasai has joined #css
16:06:44 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: here
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
16:06:58 [fantasai]
Zakim, who is here?
16:06:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bradk, plinss, dsinger (muted), [Microsoft], Bert, [Mozilla], hyatt, fantasai, Hakon_Lie, ChrisL
16:06:58 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:07:01 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
16:07:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see fantasai, ChrisL, howcome, sgalineau, dsinger_, bradk, RRSAgent, Zakim, oyvinds, hyatt, dbaron, anne2, myakura, krijnh, karl, CesarAcebal, Lachy, dsinger, plinss_,
16:07:04 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has dbaron
16:07:05 [Zakim]
... shepazu, Hixie, plinss, Bert, trackbot
16:07:41 [fantasai]
16:07:43 [fantasai]
Topic: Gradients
16:08:06 [fantasai]
Hyatt: Now that we have css3-image module, it seems like gradients work that is implemented in Mozilla and WebKit would fit well in there
16:08:18 [Zakim]
+ +49.238.aaaa
16:08:20 [fantasai]
Hyatt: Both Robert and I saw that draft and thought it would be a logical fit
16:08:32 [fantasai]
Brad: Think it's a good idea
16:08:42 [fantasai]
fantasai: I had a blank Gradients section in there before publication
16:08:55 [fantasai]
Hyatt: Mozilla and WebKit's syntax are very different
16:09:03 [fantasai]
Hyatt: So Robert and I need to start working on text for it
16:09:20 [CesarAcebal]
zakim, +49.238.aaaa is me
16:09:20 [Zakim]
+CesarAcebal; got it
16:09:30 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Looking at Mozilla page, can't see it.
16:09:36 [fantasai]
dbaron: Need to use 3.6 alpha
16:09:59 [fantasai]
howcome: You can also do gradients with inset box-shadows, but this is a better solution
16:10:07 [dsinger_]
Hm. If Chris can't see it, what is the fallback?
16:11:26 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think the syntax is very verbose. Is it verbose because we need room for extensions, or is it verbose because no one's bothered to simplify it yet
16:12:14 [fantasai]
Bert: I'm strongly opposed to gradients in CSS. you can do this with background images
16:12:51 [fantasai]
?: It gives a chance to reduce bandwidth greatly.
16:12:55 [dbaron]
16:13:14 [dbaron]
hyatt: Web inspector was able to remove 40 images (or was it 40K images?)
16:13:16 [fantasai]
Bert: Next people are going to reimplement SVG in CSS, I don't want to get there
16:13:40 [fantasai]
Sylvain: IE has proved that people go through great lengths to reproduce features, and they hate it
16:14:11 [hyatt]
dbaron: 40 images
16:14:15 [fantasai]
howcome: It's reducing use of images, CSS is good at that
16:14:43 [ChrisL]
I don't think this is reimplementing the whole of SVG. Its a fairly limited piece of functionality
16:14:43 [fantasai]
Bert: ... [couldn't catch it]
16:14:52 [dsinger_]
Hm. Would Bert prefer an image 'codec' that is a generator?
16:14:58 [fantasai]
howcome: I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think gradients are that far out there
16:15:33 [fantasai]
Bert: Next people want circles and ovals etc. Each one takes 5 minutes, but it takes a long time to learn the whole thing
16:15:34 [Zakim]
16:15:45 [ChrisL]
It doesn't seem to be particularly complex to me
16:15:49 [fantasai]
ChrisL: The boat has already sailed, CSS is no longer simple. It takes a lot of effort to understand real-world style sheets
16:16:32 [Zakim]
16:16:52 [fantasai]
ChrisL: you could do this with images or data URIs
16:17:00 [fantasai]
ChrisL: But the syntax gets very verbose
16:17:08 [fantasai]
ChrisL: So I can see the motivation for this
16:17:25 [fantasai]
howcome: Need vector representations for this
16:17:47 [fantasai]
ChrisL: And in Opera you have SVG support so you can do vector versions of complicated things
16:18:02 [fantasai]
ChrisL: This seems like low-hanging fruit, if you just want a simple gradient
16:18:52 [fantasai]
Brad: I think gradients are a common design element and to be able to specify one ... has a lot of merit
16:19:52 [fantasai]
Hyatt: They're in the same category as shadows and rounded corners
16:20:03 [fantasai]
Hyatt: It's a common effect
16:20:25 [fantasai]
Peter: I think gradients should be usable anywhere you can use a color
16:20:27 [Zakim]
16:20:35 [fantasai]
fantasai: That won't work. Colors are 0D, gradients are 2D
16:20:43 [Zakim]
16:20:49 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:20:49 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
16:21:08 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Yes, some places that don't have a geometric region, these need to have colors not gradients
16:21:41 [fantasai]
dbaron: Also, e.g. 'color' is inherited
16:22:33 [fantasai]
Peter: Agreed, don't need to expand it everywhere now, but will want to apply it other places e.g. text
16:22:48 [fantasai]
Hyatt: You can do that in webkit by specifying a clip for the text
16:22:58 [fantasai]
dbaron: In Gecko you can probably do it with filters
16:22:58 [Zakim]
16:23:06 [dbaron]
... filters or clip-path
16:23:17 [fantasai]
ChrisL: ...
16:23:23 [Zakim]
16:23:27 [fantasai]
Hyatt: That's why we want it as an image type, you can use it for many different things
16:23:50 [bradk]
my phone connection keeps dropping. sorry.
16:24:04 [fantasai]
s/.../I would be concerned if we add syntax for gradients 3 ways for 3 different use cases.. if we add it differently for backgrounds and foreground/
16:25:13 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Hard to use with border-image.
16:25:27 [dbaron]
Ah right... 'mask' was the third of those SVG properties ('clip-path', 'filter', 'mask')
16:25:39 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Can't say, e.g. use this gradient for the top borde,r this for the bottom, etc.
16:26:15 [dbaron]
?: Also, mozilla applies 'background-repeat' to gradients in terms of repeating the gradient rather than just tiling an image.
16:26:15 [fantasai]
Hyatt: With gradients in CSS you can also animate them
16:26:20 [fantasai]
16:26:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: The problem with that is that it's specific to backgrounds, hard to make it generic if it's not a rectangular region
16:26:51 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:26:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, [Microsoft], Bert, [Mozilla], hyatt, fantasai, Hakon_Lie, ChrisL, CesarAcebal, [Apple], bradk
16:26:53 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
16:26:53 [Zakim]
[Apple] has dsinger
16:26:54 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has dbaron
16:26:59 [fantasai]
Peter: Straw poll on adding gradients?
16:27:16 [fantasai]
dsinger: Would like proposers to come up with an exact proposal
16:28:29 [fantasai]
fantasai: Should have a resolution on whether or not we are receptive to gradients
16:28:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: That way they know the whole thing won't get thrown out because we decide its out of scope or something
16:29:10 [ChrisL]
+1 to add to images module. "So what exactly is a gradient in CSS? It is an image, usable anywhere that image URLs were used before. That’s right… anywhere"
16:29:26 [fantasai]
Sylvain: You could create gradient patterns with Canvas, turn it into a data URI. Probably how people would do it today
16:29:54 [fantasai]
Hyatt wants to copy language from HTML5(?)
16:30:20 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Can you get elliptical gradients?
16:30:53 [dbaron]
ChrisL, well, the non-background uses actually need to define a size better...
16:31:12 [fantasai]
Peter: Straw poll
16:31:15 [fantasai]
Sylvain: yes
16:31:18 [fantasai]
Arron: yes
16:31:20 [fantasai]
Bert: no
16:31:22 [fantasai]
dbaron: yes
16:31:28 [fantasai]
Hyatt: in favor
16:31:30 [fantasai]
Brad: in favor
16:31:31 [Zakim]
16:31:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: abstain
16:31:52 [anne2]
anne2: in favor
16:31:53 [fantasai]
howcome: We should be careful not to do too much, but I think this is one of the things we should do
16:31:59 [Zakim]
16:32:00 [fantasai]
Chris: in favor
16:32:33 [fantasai]
dsinger: abstain. Think we should look at what we're doing and find the edges of where we want to go, but I think we should go forward here
16:32:37 [fantasai]
Peter: in favor
16:33:08 [fantasai]
Peter: Only seeing one objection, so I'd say go ahead and draft a proposal
16:33:43 [hyatt]
yes it should, but we use different syntax from mozilla
16:33:51 [hyatt]
yeah :)
16:34:12 [hyatt]
16:34:35 [Bert]
(I want to put my H2 vertically, I want to hyphenate words, I want to rotate the F as in Finnegan's Wake, I want the OBJECT element to be as high as it s content... so many things that you need CSS for. Gradients is frivolous and thus harmful. :-( )
16:35:19 [fantasai]
Topic: Media Queries
16:35:49 [hyatt]
don't everyone talk at once... ;)
16:36:17 [plinss]
16:36:21 [fantasai]
Bert: Original question was that Media Queries spec replaces part of the CSS2.1 grammar
16:36:35 [fantasai]
Bert: But the "this part" doesn't refer to something correct. Can't just replace that production
16:37:03 [fantasai]
Bert: one proposal I made, that Anne agrees with, is to rewrite the grammar in Appendix G of CSS2.1 so that it contains a single token that Media Queries can easily replace
16:37:07 [plinss]
16:37:12 [fantasai]
Bert: new media_query_list token from Appendix G
16:37:28 [dbaron]
This proposal sounds good to me, except I wonder if it might be clearer if the CSS 2.1 production had a different name so that it wouldn't look like CSS 2.1 had media queries.
16:37:29 [fantasai]
Bert: That is the only thing that needs to be changed, in 2 places: Media Queries Module and CSS2.1 Appendix G
16:37:41 [fantasai]
Bert: Also dbaron raised another issue in response to this one
16:37:54 [fantasai]
Bert: Whether @media should allow no media query at all, e.g. @media { }
16:37:58 [fantasai]
Bert: That I don't think we should do
16:38:43 [CesarAcebal]
Oops, I'm afraid I had my microphone mute when I answered the pool, sorry (it's the first time I use it). ;) Anyway, my position about gradients was "abstain", since I mostly agree with Bert, but I have no a clear position about what to keep and what to get rid of.
16:38:51 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'm pretty sure we discussed this already and decided we don't want to allow @media { }
16:39:22 [fantasai]
Bert: In response to dbaron's comment on IRC, maybe we should have media_list instead of media_query_list
16:39:31 [fantasai]
Peter: So two items, one changing the grammar for this fix
16:39:38 [fantasai]
Peter: Any objections?
16:39:59 [fantasai]
Bert: Changing to this grammar is not substantive for 2.1, btw, it just makes the grammar a little verbose but it defines exactly the same language
16:40:06 [fantasai]
fantasai: I agree with the change
16:40:25 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accept Bert's proposal to change grammar, using media_list instead of media_query_list
16:40:42 [Zakim]
16:40:45 [oyvinds]
I remember finding the terminology "production A: B replaces C: D" slightly confusing, but with the right wording media_list probably makes more sense
16:40:52 [fantasai]
Peter: Second item, allowing @media { } ... fantasai says we have a previous resolution not to accept that, is everyone ok with that?
16:41:00 [fantasai]
ChrisL: yeah, seems good
16:41:07 [Zakim]
16:41:18 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: @media { } invalid
16:41:43 [fantasai]
dbaron: Still a question as to whether other uses of media queries make an empty media query list invalid
16:41:52 [fantasai]
dbaron: Right now it defines emtpy media query list as matching everything
16:42:09 [fantasai]
dbaron: So I think that's relevant for things like <link rel="stylesheet" media="">
16:42:23 [fantasai]
Bert: That's currently an error
16:42:42 [anne2]
My suggestion is to remove that from Media Queries, make it an error, and require UAs to treat media="" as media="all"
16:42:43 [fantasai]
dbaron: If you combine Media Queries with HTML5 that says media attr takes media queries, that's no longer true
16:43:06 [anne2]
(the latter would require a change to HTML5, that Ian is willing to make)
16:43:18 [dbaron]
anne2, ok, that's fine with me
16:43:43 [dbaron]
anne2, as long as somebody tells me if there are any other cases that should have the same behavior as media="" in HTML (on link and style, I presume)
16:43:57 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish updated CR draft of Media Queries with these changes
16:44:13 [anne2]
dbaron, <?xml-stylesheet?> and presumably <svg:style>
16:44:13 [dbaron]
Of course, I think I have a whole bunch of tests that depended on the other behavior...
16:44:23 [fantasai]
Topic: Shadow vs Layout
16:44:37 [anne2]
dbaron, the behavior for <style media> should not change, just conformance
16:45:39 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think we have agreement that shadows not affect layout for box-shadow
16:45:58 [fantasai]
fantasai: I know Hyatt wanted somem comprehensive text on overflow, but can't fit it into css3-background
16:46:43 [fantasai]
Hyatt: Also, should say that it applies to border-image
16:47:24 [fantasai]
Hyatt: Brad had an example where the border-image was used to create shadows
16:47:41 [fantasai]
Hyatt: Don't want scrollbars, especially horizontal scrollbars
16:48:11 [fantasai]
Brad: It's not just the scrollbar appearing, but also extra whitespace appearing b/c shadow is pushing out the edge of the container
16:48:26 [fantasai]
Hyatt: I was the only one on the list that objected to this, but I think mostly I was being a lazy implementor
16:48:55 [fantasai]
ChrisL: Particularly for horizontal scrollbars, it would be fairly easy to arrange things so they fit but now you add a drop-shadow and it doesn't fit anymore
16:49:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: Just wanted to understand reasoning, not objecting
16:49:35 [fantasai]
fantasai: Are margins included in scrollable area?
16:49:42 [Zakim]
16:49:45 [fantasai]
Hyatt: Varies from browser to browser, whether child margins are included in scrollable area
16:49:52 [fantasai]
Peter: Have a higher-level concern about this
16:50:01 [fantasai]
Peter: Agree that visual effects should never affect layout
16:50:13 [fantasai]
Peter: Concern is that presence or absence of scrollbar afffects layout
16:50:20 [Zakim]
16:50:32 [fantasai]
Peter: What about scrolling mechanism that doesn't affect layout?
16:50:41 [fantasai]
Hyatt: Webkit has that, scrollbars that appear over content
16:51:18 [Bert]
(We have marquee for overflow, too.)
16:52:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: Discussion on www-style said that even if you already have scrollbars, don't want to be able to scroll further to be able to see these effects
16:52:08 [fantasai]
Peter: Don't see why not
16:52:11 [Zakim]
16:52:55 [bradk]
my connection sucks
16:53:06 [Zakim]
16:53:15 [oyvinds]
animating/pulsating shadows would cause the scrollbar "thumb" to animate too
16:53:42 [fantasai]
fantasai attempts to summarize the discussion on www-style
16:54:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: It's not about whether scrollbars appear or disappear, shadows should just be clipped
16:55:57 [fantasai]
fantasai: they should not increase the size of the scrollable area
16:56:46 [fantasai]
Peter: I think whether it increase the scrollable area should be a UA decision
16:57:33 [fantasai]
bradk, why is your connection so crappy?
16:58:16 [fantasai]
Hyatt: Want these two concepts of overflow documented in a spec
16:58:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: Has to be in CSS3 module, too much for 2.1
16:59:23 [fantasai]
e.g. css3-box
17:00:02 [fantasai]
Hyatt: add a sentence for border-image
17:00:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: I propose adding Brad Kemper as co-editor of css3-background
17:01:00 [fantasai]
17:01:02 [Zakim]
17:01:03 [fantasai]
meeting closed
17:01:03 [Zakim]
17:01:03 [Zakim]
17:01:04 [Zakim]
17:01:05 [Zakim]
17:01:06 [Zakim]
17:01:07 [Zakim]
17:01:12 [Zakim]
17:01:13 [Zakim]
17:01:15 [Zakim]
17:01:16 [Zakim]
17:01:16 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:17 [Zakim]
Attendees were bradk, plinss, dsinger, Bert, dbaron, sylvaing, arronei, hyatt, Hakon_Lie, fantasai, ChrisL, CesarAcebal
17:33:04 [dbaron]
anne2, so if empty media lists are supposed to be valid for every known use of media queries except @media... maybe @media should be the one where the spec makes an exception, rather than making exceptions for all the others?
17:34:21 [anne2]
the idea was to make them invalid (like in HTML4) but require UAs to treat them as all because of compat
17:35:04 [anne2]
I don't feel strongly either way
17:36:02 [dbaron]
ah, ok
17:36:29 [dbaron]
well, code-wise, I might make the @media case the exception
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