13:57:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
13:57:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/07-pf-irc
13:57:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
13:57:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pf
13:57:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
13:57:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:57:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
13:57:28 <trackbot> Date: 07 August 2009
13:57:35 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM has now started
13:57:42 <Zakim> +??P0
13:58:09 <Stevef> zakim, ??PO is Stevef
13:58:09 <Zakim> sorry, Stevef, I do not recognize a party named '??PO'
13:58:25 <Stevef> zakim, ??P0 is Stevef
13:58:25 <Zakim> +Stevef; got it
13:58:30 <Zakim> + +49.699.435.aaaa
13:58:49 <kliehm> zakim, aaaa is kliehm
13:58:49 <Zakim> +kliehm; got it
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13:59:40 <Zakim> +Cooper
14:00:46 <janina> janina has joined #pf
14:01:06 <janina> zakim, call janina
14:01:06 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
14:01:07 <Zakim> +Janina
14:01:25 <Zakim> +jcraig
14:02:14 <kliehm> zakim, mute me
14:02:14 <Zakim> kliehm should now be muted
14:03:52 <Stevef> scribe:Stevef
14:05:37 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
14:05:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:05:58 <Gez> Gez has joined #pf
14:06:18 <jcraig> Zakim, IPcaller is Gez
14:06:18 <Zakim> +Gez; got it
14:08:21 <kliehm> zakim, unmute me
14:08:21 <Zakim> kliehm should no longer be muted
14:11:07 <Stevef> q+
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14:12:50 <chaals> zakim, code?
14:12:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 92473 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chaals
14:13:27 <cyns> cyns has joined #pf
14:13:40 <Zakim> +??P6
14:13:53 <chaals> zakim, ??P6 is me
14:13:53 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
14:14:03 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:14:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/07-pf-minutes.html chaals
14:14:28 <chaals> rrsagent, make logs member
14:19:12 <Stevef> janina: how do we want to organise moving forward on canvas?
14:19:16 <janina> q?
14:19:35 <kliehm> q+
14:20:10 <Stevef> chaals: best guess creating a shadow tree in the dom, build relevant pieces of canvas
14:20:12 <jcraig> q+
14:20:55 <Stevef> janina: can we agree that aria is going to be part of html5 and we can count on it for canvas?
14:21:40 <Stevef> janina: canvas work will be predicated on aria will be incorporated, put a stake in the sand
14:22:25 <Stevef> kliehm: lack of msaa support for new elements in html, AT see nothing
14:23:04 <Stevef> kliehm: testing for support needed, maybe steve can test?
14:23:05 <Tim> Tim has joined #pf
14:23:46 <Stevef> kliehm: developers working with canvas have an idea of an object, but can't be done yet, just a bit map
14:24:48 <Stevef> kliehm: google using canvas rather than svg, because its faster, chaals said their is already a dom tree, but have to recerate it
14:24:58 <Stevef> q
14:25:08 <chaals> q+
14:25:10 <cyns> +1
14:25:11 <Stevef> q+
14:25:29 <jcraig> ack k
14:25:31 <cyns> q+\
14:25:38 <cyns> q+
14:25:53 <chaals> q+ to say that the browser would do what it could, but we need to recognise taht in general it won't be good enough
14:27:28 <jcraig> ack s
14:27:47 <Stevef> kliehm: need to map objects painted on canvas
14:28:37 <Stevef> stevef: the current fallback method breaks down when any interaction and compexity is added to canvas
14:29:29 <Stevef> jcraig: agree complexity gets out of hand, biggest problem now is theoretical, there are no examples
14:29:47 <janina> q?
14:29:55 <Stevef> jcraig:no good way to get shadow dom exposed
14:29:56 <chaals> q- \
14:30:02 <chaals> ack jc
14:30:49 <Zakim> -chaals
14:31:14 <Stevef> jcraig: better to let browser vendors working on providing access to shadow DOM
14:31:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:31:30 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
14:31:49 <chaals> zakim, ipcaller is me
14:31:49 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
14:33:06 <kliehm> agrred
14:33:19 <kliehm> s/agrred/agreed
14:33:38 <jcraig> s/better to let browser vendors working on providing access to shadow DOM/better to let browser vendors work on providing access to shadow DOM and attempt to fix the potential focus management issues. otherwise, we may end up with a theoretical spec that isn't actually useful./
14:34:01 <chaals> ack me
14:34:01 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say that the browser would do what it could, but we need to recognise taht in general it won't be good enough
14:34:08 <chaals> ack cyns
14:35:08 <Stevef> cyns:1 all browser vendors on this call
14:35:17 <chaals> q+ to say timelines are important... which isn't necessarily in our favour
14:35:36 <Stevef> jcraig: using existing implementaions better than creating new object model
14:35:45 <jcraig> jcraig: also, future js libs might abstract some of the potential onus on the developer. 
14:36:14 <Stevef> cyns: noticded table API in HTML5, and wondered whether similar approach for cnavas may be useful/
14:36:16 <jcraig> s/object/pseudo-object
14:37:07 <Stevef> jcarig: at the time you are drawing it javascript knows what it is, but dispaears once destroyed
14:37:42 <jcraig> s/jcarig/jcraig
14:37:51 <Stevef> q+
14:38:08 <chaals> CS: If there is a set of objects being built in creating a canvas, then that could be a place to hang an accessibility API.
14:38:20 <jcraig> s/once destroyed/once destroyed. nothing hangs around other than image data./
14:38:35 <janina> q?
14:38:36 <chaals> ack me
14:38:37 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say timelines are important... which isn't necessarily in our favour
14:40:03 <kliehm> q+
14:40:16 <cyns> q+
14:40:36 <Stevef> chaals: no objects in canvas, running with what we already have is better, inventing something new will take too long
14:41:29 <Stevef> chaals: if we get libraries being built that facilitate accessibility, that will be good,the technology is poor because you have to doo a lot of the work yourself
14:42:13 <Stevef> chaals: svg is sorta OK, but still problematic
14:43:36 <Stevef> chaals: something we can do to help authors build an object tree, will help, but speed is an issue and developers vendors don't want to reduce cnavas speed
14:44:09 <jcraig> s/cnavas/canvas/
14:44:52 <Stevef> chaals: so we should go with ARIA and expect that ARIA 2.0 will provide more complete enhancements that canvas needs
14:45:00 <jcraig> q?
14:45:40 <jcraig> Stevef: when I was looking into canvas, i thought about the similarity of image map
14:45:49 <chaals> steve: When looking into it, thinking of the similarity between an image map and working with a canvas.
14:46:02 <jcraig> Stevef: certain areas are interactive.
14:46:34 <jcraig> q+
14:46:36 <chaals> ... you will have some basic elements that you can add roles and states to.
14:47:24 <kliehm> ach me
14:47:27 <kliehm> ack me
14:47:29 <chaals> ack Stevef
14:47:35 <Stevef> kliehm: enabling auto generation of text in a canvas, and need some structruers that cannot be mapped to ARIA or html
14:48:11 <jcraig> q-
14:48:27 <Stevef> cyns: accessibility APIs are not new, lots of people who have worked on API's, so its not new territory
14:48:58 <jcraig> q+ to say, the abstraction to ax apis isn't new, but any browser implementation of a new canvas pseudo-object tree is
14:49:03 <chaals> ack cyns
14:49:15 <Stevef> cyns: v2 of ARIA, and it should have an API, and co developing it with html should be a reasonable thing to do
14:49:30 <janina> q?
14:49:37 <chaals> ack me
14:49:37 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say "duh", yes, that will provide some simple ones
14:50:43 <kliehm> we need to markup the shadow dom for some examples and see common elements like text, or perhaps things that cannot be represented by HTML and ARIA. No need to map it automatically now, just make an inventory of use cases.
14:50:59 <Stevef> chaals: we need an ARIA 2.0, that will help us make things easier, putting an image map on canvas will make things easier for simple things
14:51:24 <cyns> also alt and other WCAG 1.1.1 techniques covers many use cases
14:51:43 <Stevef> q+ to say i was not saying to use image maps, but to have something similar implemented in canvas
14:52:19 <cyns> q+
14:53:06 <Stevef> jcraig: vendors concerned about new web technologies, image map idea might be a solution
14:53:55 <cyns> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AddedElementCanvas#head-c43887ef27c016a20e53d16718ab16a398b6899d
14:54:06 <Stevef> janina: next steps for meeting, cllect a set of examples to further refine approach, its already in wiki page
14:54:10 <jcraig> s/image map idea might be a solution/image map idea is an interesting idea since aria semantics could be tacked on to the image image dom elements/
14:55:46 <Stevef> jcraig:if browser has canvas it will not render anything inside cnavas
14:56:27 <Stevef> cyns: will speak to direct draw people at microsft
14:56:48 <janina> q?
14:57:17 <chaals> stevef: not talking of using image map as fallbback
14:57:32 <jcraig> s/anything inside cnavas/anything inside cnavas to the accessibility api. we also need to think about how that should/could work
14:57:42 <chaals> ... using it as an idea of something tha culd be built in to canvas to handle focus management and provide a basic structure to hang ARIA from.
14:58:09 <jcraig> ack s
14:58:09 <Zakim> Stevef, you wanted to say i was not saying to use image maps, but to have something similar implemented in canvas
14:58:10 <chaals> ... if developers are creating interactions mouse-based, an easy win would be to create a form of focus that is natively accesible 
14:58:18 <chaals> ... image map was an analogy
14:58:20 <chaals> q+
14:58:24 <jcraig> ack c
14:58:31 <jcraig> ack cy
14:58:45 <Stevef> cyns: no approaches are mutually exclusive
14:58:50 <jcraig> q-
14:58:53 <jcraig> q+
14:59:24 <Stevef> cyns: we can do all of these things, but need easy API as end goal
14:59:58 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #pf
15:00:07 <richardschwerdtfe> what is the call in for this?
15:00:14 <janina> We're about to close!
15:00:16 <chaals> zakim, code?
15:00:16 <Zakim> the conference code is 92473 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chaals
15:00:21 <cyns> +1 to focus feature in canvas API.  
15:00:39 <richardschwerdtfe> I was told the time was to start at 10 cst at the last call
15:00:47 <janina> edt
15:00:50 <richardschwerdtfe> it won't let me in
15:00:58 <Stevef> chaals: image map should not be an analogy, because image maps work now and can resolve some issues
15:01:05 <janina> probably because we're past the hour, and zakim was scheduled for 60 minutes
15:01:12 <richardschwerdtfe> this stinks
15:01:17 <janina> we missed you
15:01:28 <jcraig> q?
15:01:33 <jcraig> ack c
15:01:34 <richardschwerdtfe> I was told the meeting was at 11pm est at yesterday's pf call
15:01:36 <jcraig> ack me
15:01:47 <Stevef> chaals: it is a technique that works out of the box today
15:02:05 <richardschwerdtfe> I can't get it
15:02:29 <Stevef> cyns: alt on area is gone?
15:02:42 <richardschwerdtfe> so, I saw a comment on canvas
15:02:50 <richardschwerdtfe> what was discussed?
15:03:01 <janina> we'll have pretty good minutes in about 5
15:03:03 <Stevef> chaals: i siad there is a change in the model of image maps
15:03:05 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/07-pf-minutes.html chaals
15:03:23 <chaals> s/maps/maps that I think would be bad for this/
15:03:42 <chaals> [I will not be available next week]
15:04:18 <richardschwerdtfe> what is the object model we would be staying with?
15:04:31 <richardschwerdtfe> there is no object model in canvas and one is needed
15:05:10 <richardschwerdtfe> putting an image map on canvas is a punt
15:05:26 <Zakim> -kliehm
15:05:27 <chaals> rich, the plan is to go with building a model based on aria (because we know it alrready, and we expect to have to make ARIA 2 in any case with stuff that is currently missing), with HTML image maps able to handle some simpler cases...
15:05:27 <Zakim> -Stevef
15:05:27 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
15:05:29 <Zakim> -Gez
15:05:29 <Zakim> -Janina
15:05:35 <janina> zakim, bye
15:05:35 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Stevef, +49.699.435.aaaa, kliehm, Cooper, Janina, jcraig, Cynthia_Shelly, Gez, chaals
15:05:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pf
15:05:49 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
15:05:58 <chaals> well, it is a solution for some of the things we want, and it will work out of the bo.
15:05:58 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
15:05:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/07-pf-minutes.html janina
15:06:10 <richardschwerdtfe> aria 2 is a punt
15:06:16 <chaals> we agree that there needs to be an object model...
15:06:16 <jcraig> s/scribe: jcraig/scribe: stevef
15:06:18 <kliehm> rich, also we'll look at the Wiki examples to come up with use cases how the fallback DOM of those would look like.
15:06:31 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
15:06:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/07-pf-minutes.html jcraig
15:06:47 <chaals> but planning on developing  a new object model is as much of a punt as aria 2
15:06:52 <richardschwerdtfe> why not create a basic object model and associate the objects with hdcs?
15:07:02 <richardschwerdtfe> why is that a punt
15:07:03 <richardschwerdtfe> ?
15:07:07 <chaals> what we got now: aria 1, image maps, dom.
15:07:12 <chaals> what's hdcs?
15:07:19 <richardschwerdtfe> there is no DOM in a canvas?
15:07:22 <jcraig> s/scribe: jcraig/scribe: stevef/
15:07:25 <kliehm> nope
15:07:25 <richardschwerdtfe> there is no DOM in a canvas
15:07:43 <richardschwerdtfe> handle for a device context
15:07:53 <chaals> canvas is an object in the DOM. It doesn't normally have anything useful, except that it *does* have children.
15:08:10 <richardschwerdtfe> what children?
15:08:18 <richardschwerdtfe> are they device context children?
15:08:19 <chaals> creating a basic object model is the same as creating aria2 - theory for now.
15:08:27 <richardschwerdtfe> not really
15:08:31 <chaals> whatever children people give it.
15:08:58 <chaals> right now, element content as a fallback. Except were making an imagemap would be a smart move, this is unlikely to be used.
15:09:19 <richardschwerdtfe> an image map does not help
15:09:47 <chaals> giving it dom children that are elements with aria roles, dynamically, is something that can be used to build a fallback that matches the process of using teh canvas in the first place.
15:09:49 <richardschwerdtfe> so what I am suggesting is that we create an object model that can shadow the device contexts used in canvas
15:09:57 <chaals> an image map does not solve the general problem.
15:09:59 <kliehm> an image map would help for some cases, but in others w need a better structure.
15:10:18 <chaals> it solves some of the specific problems, and it has the advantage that it has been invented years ago and works in browsers...
15:10:35 <richardschwerdtfe> an image map will not give you access to text in Bespin
15:10:36 <chaals> we agree about creating an object model that shaows the stuff in the canvas.
15:10:55 <richardschwerdtfe> I really don't think this is as difficult as people are making it out
15:10:58 <chaals> actually, potentially it will.
15:11:05 <chaals> <map>
15:11:33 <richardschwerdtfe> how is that?
15:11:52 <chaals>  <a onclick="doSomeBespinThing()" contenteditable="true" coords="[wherever]">some text</a>
15:12:00 <chaals> [etc]
15:12:07 <chaals> that's HTML 4
15:12:22 <richardschwerdtfe> here is another way to think about this
15:12:29 <chaals> and as you manage teh text or move it you update the a element in the map.
15:12:31 <richardschwerdtfe> in canvas text editor
15:12:33 <chaals> crude, but...
15:12:49 <richardschwerdtfe> you have a device context
15:12:51 <chaals> (a canvas text editor is a stupid idea anyway...)
15:12:55 <richardschwerdtfe> you associate it with an object
15:13:10 <richardschwerdtfe> if it is stupid why do people think so much of Bespin?
15:13:33 <chaals> because it is pretty. People think my computer is pretty too, even though it's a piece of junk.
15:13:48 <richardschwerdtfe> in any  case I am using it as an example
15:13:58 <chaals> sure. and it's a  reasonable example...
15:14:05 <richardschwerdtfe> so you have a device context to which you are drawing text to
15:14:13 <kliehm> Because Bespin is cool. Canvas gives people who know JavaScript the power to manipulate things in a browser. Canvas and scripting is made for people, SVG is generated by machines.
15:14:44 <richardschwerdtfe> the DC maintains color, font information, clipping areas, etc. (much handled by the underlying graphics system)
15:14:49 <richardschwerdtfe> mind that to an object
15:14:53 <richardschwerdtfe> bind that to an object
15:15:03 <chaals> agreed so far (we all agree so far)
15:15:18 <richardschwerdtfe> to that object associate a call back for javascript to provide the text, caret position, and aria properties
15:15:30 <richardschwerdtfe> for those object that support text
15:16:00 <chaals> what kind of object should that be? Something new, or something we already have?
15:16:02 <richardschwerdtfe> you then allow other objects to be created with dcs as children of the container dc - if needed
15:16:07 <richardschwerdtfe> does not matter
15:16:13 <richardschwerdtfe> it is an object
15:16:47 <richardschwerdtfe> a DOM we know about but it may be too heavy weight
15:16:50 <richardschwerdtfe> I am open
15:17:08 <chaals> and I think it does matter - if it is something we have already the implementation burden is lower, the time to market is lower, and we can test it now and see if the idea has legs or needs to be rebuilt. If it is something new, then we start from theory, with no implementation or use experience, and have to rebuild a whole lot of wheels we already have.
15:17:18 <chaals> DOM *may* be too heavy weight. but it may not.
15:17:35 <richardschwerdtfe> by it does not matter I mean it does not matter for accessibility
15:17:47 <chaals> and unlike a structured system like SVG, you only put into the DOM the things you actively need.
15:17:51 <richardschwerdtfe> I am happy use a DOM
15:17:59 <richardschwerdtfe> now this is where it gets interesting
15:18:16 <richardschwerdtfe> you may have private data that is bound to the drawing
15:18:23 <chaals> so you get a wwight benefit (which you need, to convince canvas users to do it at all)
15:19:46 <jcraig> topic: WAI-PF
15:19:47 <richardschwerdtfe> you can create your own object tree mapping of the a visualization
15:20:15 <richardschwerdtfe> chaals you want me to set up a call to talk about it?
15:20:53 <chaals> chaals has changed the topic to: WAI protocols and formats
15:21:07 <chaals> rich, you and me talking?
15:21:11 <richardschwerdtfe> My next call is in just under an hour
15:21:16 <richardschwerdtfe> I am happy to talk about this
15:21:25 <chaals> can you skype me?
15:21:35 <richardschwerdtfe> yes. just a sec
15:21:46 <jcraig> jcraig has left #pf
15:36:16 <chaals> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AddedElementCanvas
15:45:28 <chaals> http://opera.com/smw/2009/06/
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