IRC log of ua on 2009-08-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:09 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
16:53:19 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:53:32 [KFord]
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zakim list agenda
16:57:21 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:57:28 [Zakim]
16:57:38 [KFord]
zakim, microsoft is kford
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+kford; got it
16:59:14 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
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16:59:49 [Zakim]
17:00:15 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:00:15 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:00:30 [Zakim]
17:00:50 [KFord]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
17:00:50 [KFord]
Agenda+ HTML 5 and UAAG review -
17:00:50 [KFord]
Agenda+ Review any new proposals sent to list.
17:00:55 [Jan]
zakim, is really Henny
17:00:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'is really Henny', Jan
17:01:04 [Jan]
zakim, ??P1 is really Henny
17:01:04 [Zakim]
+Henny; got it
17:01:04 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate KFord
17:01:13 [KFord]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:01:30 [KFord]
17:01:44 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:02:00 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate KFord
17:02:35 [KFord]
17:02:36 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:02:36 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:02:36 [AllanJ]
regrets: +Greg
17:04:13 [KFord]
Chair: Jim_Allan
17:04:35 [KFord]
Present:Jan, Jim, Simon, Henny
17:04:37 [AllanJ]
zakim, agneda?
17:04:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, AllanJ.
17:04:43 [KFord]
17:04:47 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
17:04:47 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
17:04:48 [Zakim]
1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from KFord]
17:04:49 [Zakim]
2. HTML 5 and UAAG review - [from KFord]
17:04:53 [Zakim]
3. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:04:55 [Zakim]
17:05:00 [sharper]
zakim, ??P4 is sharper
17:05:07 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:05:58 [KFord]
zakim, take up item 1
17:05:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from KFord]
17:06:05 [KFord]
zakim, close item 1
17:06:05 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
17:06:06 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:06:08 [Zakim]
2. HTML 5 and UAAG review - [from KFord]
17:06:30 [KFord]
JALLAN: Overall opinions of HTMl5 draft.
17:06:54 [KFord]
Simon: I had read it before, followed lots of discussion.
17:07:12 [KFord]
JAN: Haven't had a chance to review yet.
17:07:37 [KFord]
Jim: bringing up Simon's comments.
17:08:16 [KFord]
Simon: I think what we are saying and what others are saying with respect to access keys might be a bit difficult.
17:08:30 [KFord]
Scribe: KFord
17:09:00 [Zakim]
17:09:23 [mth]
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17:10:32 [KFord]
Simon's mail on concerns is at
17:10:48 [KFord]
17:11:40 [KFord]
Mark: Looking at WAI ARIA. Within the user agent we can identify widgets.
17:13:16 [AllanJ]
KF: ARIA role mapping to Accessibility API exits
17:13:48 [AllanJ]
...if authro doesnot define all behaviors in the script, there is nothing the UA can do.
17:14:10 [AllanJ]
MH: how does UA repair, or preempt mapping
17:14:44 [AllanJ]
KF: Keyboard behaviors are a problem with ARIA and developers
17:16:16 [KFord]
Henny: Saw some comments on lists that the intent is there to do some ARIA in HTML5 but not much action yet.
17:16:17 [AllanJ]
HS: discussion on lists for ARIA in HTML5, intent is to include it
17:16:17 [KimPatch]
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17:16:27 [KFord]
17:16:44 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:16:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate KFord
17:16:55 [Zakim]
17:18:28 [KFord]
Jim: Restating Mark's idea of user agent mapping keys to ARIA roles.
17:18:50 [KFord]
Kim: How viable is that?
17:19:32 [KFord]
Mark: Brings up various technical issues like whgat happens when elements of item are not defined.
17:19:50 [KFord]
17:21:17 [AllanJ]
KF: Question: intrigued by Mark's suggestion. Could HTML 5 require that a specific control have x semantics
17:22:36 [KFord]
Kim: Are there ways to handle things if a developer leaves something out?
17:23:44 [KFord]
Simon: Browsers do handle certain errors today for missing sections of tags and such.
17:26:47 [KFord]
Kim: We try to get people to do things with speech in ways that don't use the mouse if possible.
17:27:20 [KFord]
Kim: What works better with speech is not having to find the mouse but rather being able to say I want to put the mouse in location x.
17:28:32 [AllanJ]
Discussion of Drag-and-drop and accessibility
17:28:59 [KFord]
Kim: If you had an absolute pointing tablet this is easier.
17:29:25 [KFord]
kford: Gave example of iPhone and touch being absolute.
17:29:58 [KFord]
Jim: I was reading in HTML 5 on the drag stuff.
17:30:53 [KFord]
Jim: They kind of talk about user agents without pointing devices and saying the user would need to be able to say what they want to drag.
17:31:21 [KFord]
Kim: Talked about Dragon Naturally Speaking approach where you need to indicate drop target first.
17:34:55 [KFord]
Jim: One thing we can take to WAI is concerns about keyboard, script, AJAX and such. Isn't necessarily specific to HTML5 but problem continues to grow.
17:36:10 [KFord]
Simon: Expressed concern over HTML5 hidden data.
17:40:43 [AllanJ]
KF: DOM should get updated when mutation event fires
17:42:25 [AllanJ]
SH: Decision to fire is at UA discretion. Concern is how does UA decide appropriate firing of event, might be different for different device users or AT users
17:43:01 [KFord]
Jim: A couple of items I noticed that said they were violations.
17:43:52 [AllanJ]
These requirements are a willful violation of the XPath 1.0 specification, motivated by desire to have implementations be compatible with legacy content while still supporting the changes that this specification introduces to HTML regarding which namespace is used for HTML elements. [XPATH10]
17:43:54 [KFord]
Jim: Talked about xpath.
17:44:28 [KFord]
Jim: I looked at user agent behaviors.
17:45:02 [KFord]
Jim: Whole thing is about how things should interact with the DOM. Most seemed pretty reasonable.
17:45:12 [KFord]
Jim: A couple of issues.
17:45:45 [KFord]
Jim: HTML5 definition of plugin is different from ours. They don't define a method of interacting. This is supposed to be to the user agent or platform.
17:46:53 [KFord]
HTML5 definition for plugin.
17:46:54 [KFord]
2.1.4 Plugins
17:46:54 [KFord]
The term plugin is used to mean any content handler for Web content types that are either not supported by the user agent natively or that do not expose a DOM, which supports rendering the content as part of the user agent's interface.
17:47:25 [KFord]
Jim: Also looked at iframe element and attribute called sandbox.
17:47:49 [KFord]
Jim: Sandbox sets behavior such as allowing the iframe to behave like a full browser.
17:50:12 [KFord]
Sandbox definition:
17:50:13 [KFord]
The sandbox attribute, when specified, enables a set of extra restrictions on any content hosted by the iframe. Its value must be an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens. The allowed values are allow-same-origin, allow-forms, and allow-scripts. When the attribute is set, the content is treated as being from a unique origin, forms and scripts are disabled, links are prevented from targeting other browsing contexts, and plugins are disabled. The allow-same-or
17:52:14 [KFord]
Kim: User needs to be in control, they get confused when they set things and then they don't work.
17:52:38 [AllanJ]
Action: JAllan to write SC for user override sandbox attribute in Iframe
17:52:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-220 - Write SC for user override sandbox attribute in Iframe [on Jim Allan - due 2009-08-13].
17:53:14 [KFord]
Jim: My other concern is how many other attributes like this are there floating around? How do we generalize this?
17:54:28 [KFord]
Kim: If you had a way to alert the user about things that the site wants to override this could help.
17:56:05 [AllanJ]
KF: UA override, how to define list.
17:56:19 [AllanJ]
...lots of things could be included.
17:57:02 [AllanJ]
...pop-ups as an example. Authors want them, users block them. if user initiated then ok.
17:57:47 [AllanJ]
...User needs an intelligent way to set overrides, what it does, what can I effect, what will be the results.
18:03:20 [KFord]
Jim: HTML 5 has concept of fallback content. Gives example from canvas.
18:04:04 [KFord]
Jim: I think we have that covered from our cascade of alternatives.
18:05:17 [Zakim]
18:05:22 [KFord]
Jim: Have concerns around datagrid and labels, images and such.
18:05:38 [KFord]
Jim: Need to form these thoughts further.
18:07:31 [Zakim]
18:07:48 [Jan]
zakim, ??P1 is really Henny
18:07:48 [Zakim]
+Henny; got it
18:12:51 [KFord]
zakim close item 2
18:13:46 [KFord]
zakim, close item 2
18:13:46 [Zakim]
agendum 2, HTML 5 and UAAG review -, closed
18:13:48 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:13:49 [Zakim]
3. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
18:15:29 [KFord]
Looking at mail from Simon.
18:17:54 [KFord]
Now talking about
18:21:16 [Jan]
18:23:25 [AllanJ]
ack Jan
18:24:15 [mth]
18:25:08 [AllanJ]
ack mth
18:30:25 [AllanJ]
SH: is there an API or bridge between javascript and platform Accessibility API
18:30:49 [AllanJ]
KF: ARIA helps some (with roles)
18:31:16 [AllanJ]
SH: is there a validity checker or something for accessible Javascript?
18:32:01 [AllanJ]
KF: ARIA attempts to put semantics and mapping to accessibility API
18:32:13 [AllanJ]
...for javascript widgets
18:33:13 [AllanJ]
JR: Java bridge, is a small set of java widgets that are passed to the platform AAPI.
18:33:56 [AllanJ]
...somebody declared a 'winner' for what the specific Java widget set would be.
18:34:23 [mth]
18:35:29 [Zakim]
18:35:53 [Zakim]
18:35:54 [Zakim]
18:35:54 [Zakim]
18:35:56 [Zakim]
18:36:12 [sharper]
Marcos Cáceres, Opera Software ASA
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18:44:25 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
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Attendees were kford, AllanJ, Jan, Henny, sharper, Kim
18:45:35 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:45:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
18:45:46 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
18:45:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:46:15 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:46:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
18:46:37 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
18:46:37 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
18:46:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JAllan to write SC for user override sandbox attribute in Iframe [1]
18:46:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in