14:53:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:53:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-irc
14:54:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:54:13 <msporny> zakim, this will be RDFa
14:54:13 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:22 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
14:54:26 <msporny> Chair: Ben_Adida
14:54:34 <msporny> Regrets: Michael_Hausenblas
14:54:42 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny, Mark_Birbeck
14:54:57 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:55:37 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Aug/0039.html
14:55:48 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:55:58 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:56:31 <msporny> previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html
14:56:35 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:56:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
15:00:23 <msporny> zakim, code?
15:00:23 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), msporny
15:00:54 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:01:01 <Zakim> +??P7
15:01:07 <msporny> zakim, I am P7
15:01:07 <Zakim> sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named 'P7'
15:01:10 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P7
15:01:10 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:03:04 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:03:29 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:03:57 <msporny> present+ Shane_McCarron
15:04:03 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:04:12 <msporny> present+ Ben_Adida
15:04:47 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:05:22 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:05:45 <markbirbeck> Sorry I'm late. Just coming.
15:05:56 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:06:00 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:06:03 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:06:03 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:06:43 <Zakim> + +1.208.761.aaaa
15:06:48 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa
15:06:48 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:08:04 <msporny> Topic: Action Items
15:08:49 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to summarize architectural issues (security) re: @profile proposal for tokenizing the web. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
15:08:58 <msporny> -- done
15:09:44 <msporny> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:09:53 <msporny> -- continues
15:10:05 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to author wiki page with charter template for RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:10:16 <msporny> benadida: have made some progress on that, got up early to work on it.
15:10:20 <benadida> worth reviewing --> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-ig-charter
15:10:27 <msporny> benadida: might want to have people start reviewing that now.
15:10:37 <msporny> benadida: Focuses around two activities.
15:10:42 <msporny> benadida: Provide input to HTML WG on RDFa.
15:10:50 <msporny> benadida: RDFa in XHTML v1.1
15:11:18 <msporny> benadida: The proposals we're making for simpler syntax (@profile, @token) will push us towards 1.1 for XHTML+RDFa
15:11:28 <msporny> benadida: Those are the two foci of the RDFa IG.
15:11:37 <msporny> -- continues
15:12:03 <msporny> Topic: Continued @profile discussion
15:14:03 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Aug/0037.html
15:14:15 <msporny> benadida: That's the summary of the issue...
15:14:26 <msporny> s/issue.../issues.../
15:14:39 <msporny> markbirbeck: @profile is how do we find a bunch of tokens.
15:15:31 <msporny> benadida: We didn't go too deep without you here, Mark.
15:15:46 <msporny> benadida: The security issue seems to have struck a chord with Manu and Shane.
15:16:10 <msporny> benadida: The parser now needs to dereference 3rd party resources and that is an issue with Javascript and XMLHttpRequest.
15:16:31 <msporny> markbirbeck: Right.
15:16:42 <msporny> markbirbeck: The substance of my proposal was about the tokenisation aspect.
15:16:59 <msporny> markbirbeck: We should consider using the tokenization term.
15:17:12 <msporny> markbirbeck: We should attempt to address the xmlns: issues that people have been concerned about.
15:17:36 <msporny> markbirbeck: The issues that you are raising are with the mechanism of finding other tokens.
15:18:21 <msporny> benadida: The question is where in the stack does the tokenization happen?
15:19:09 <msporny> markbirbeck: I think tokenization does exist.
15:19:16 <msporny> markbirbeck: This is purely about languages that reflect RDF.
15:19:32 <msporny> markbirbeck: You're saying that tokenization is part of the CURIE stack.
15:19:51 <msporny> markbirbeck: Language (N3, RDF/XML) has its own way of expressing RDF.
15:20:22 <msporny> markbirbeck: CURIEs do a pretty good job of summarizing URIs.
15:20:40 <msporny> markbirbeck: Why not allow the syntax to not need colons for expressing CURIEs.
15:21:33 <msporny> benadida: Right, so to be precise: In any implementation, where would it live?
15:21:47 <msporny> benadida: This would have to live in the layer above the RDF store...
15:21:57 <msporny> benadida: You have to resolve the CURIE into a URI before you put it into the RDF store.
15:22:43 <msporny> Shane: Mark's proposal is in essence, in an existing RDFa document today, with a minor change to the processing model, you could declare a token mapping /in-line/ and then use that token mapping as a defined term.
15:23:29 <msporny> Shane: you could do something like <span token="shane=http://example.org/shane#" property="shane">Shane McCarron</span>
15:23:41 <msporny> benadida: I think the common goal we want is the simpler syntax.
15:24:03 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:24:38 <ShaneM> <span xmlns:shane="http://www.halindrome.com/me" rel="shane">Shane McCarron</span>
15:25:25 <msporny> Manu: These are separate issues, tokenization and @profile.
15:25:40 <msporny> benadida: Well, what's the goal?
15:25:51 <msporny> markbirbeck: So, there are a number of goals.
15:25:58 <msporny> markbirbeck: One of them is that xmlns: is problematic.
15:26:40 <msporny> markbirbeck: We're trying to make it easier to author.
15:26:54 <msporny> markbirbeck: The big problem with Microformats was never really the syntax.
15:27:07 <msporny> markbirbeck: The vocabularies don't scale.
15:27:14 <msporny> markbirbeck: There isn't a unified parsing mechanism.
15:27:56 <msporny> markbirbeck: The goal of tokenization is to provide Microformats-like markup.
15:28:51 <msporny> markbirbeck: I'm proposing a solution for what we agree is a particular problem.
15:29:02 <msporny> markbirbeck: Tokenization isn't an end in itself.
15:29:06 <msporny> markbirbeck: it isn't.
15:29:09 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about why remote vocabs are a problem
15:29:35 <msporny> ack shanem
15:29:35 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about why remote vocabs are a problem
15:30:11 <msporny> ShaneM: I don't think anybody disagrees that we need to provide an easier markup mechanism.
15:30:42 <msporny> ShaneM: The issue isn't @token - it's that having collections of those terms expressed remotely in a way that is discoverable, is problematic
15:31:01 <msporny> ShaneM: it's problematic because we have issues with Javascript + XMLHttpRequest.
15:31:14 <msporny> markbirbeck: Yes, I understand that.
15:31:55 <msporny> markbirbeck: There are ways of loading remote URLs in Javascript.
15:32:13 <msporny> markbirbeck: We still haven't addressed the conceptual question...
15:32:52 <msporny> markbirbeck: There are conceptual issues about mapping at the RDF level.
15:33:15 <msporny> markbirbeck: We need to get the conceptual level right.
15:33:24 <msporny> benadida: I think we agree on the approach.
15:33:49 <msporny> benadida: I think it's a symptom of the conceptual issue.
15:34:29 <msporny> benadida: I think we're putting too much responsibility on the parser.
15:34:38 <msporny> benadida: The parser has to dereference 3rd party resources.
15:34:49 <msporny> benadida: It's a symptom of the larger issue.
15:34:55 <msporny> markbirbeck: I fundamentally disagree with you.
15:35:26 <msporny> markbirbeck: There is an issue - how do you get the document?
15:35:37 <msporny> markbirbeck: But that doesn't tell you anything about the fundamental distinction.
15:36:11 <msporny> markbirbeck: We have a way of mapping text to URIs.
15:36:25 <msporny> markbirbeck: currently in RDFa.
15:36:34 <msporny> markbirbeck: So, using owl:sameAs is problematic.
15:36:56 <msporny> markbirbeck: All @token does is add a way of mapping text to URIs.
15:37:32 <msporny> q+ xmlns: and IE
15:37:39 <msporny> q-
15:37:47 <msporny> q+ msporny xmlns and IE
15:37:52 <msporny> q+
15:38:31 <markbirbeck> Slightly modify Shane's example, by adding a colon:
15:38:33 <markbirbeck> <span xmlns:shane="http://www.halindrome.com/me" rel="shane:">Shane McCarron</span>
15:41:47 <msporny> markbirbeck: So, we can already to the markup above.
15:42:33 <msporny> markbirbeck: When you're working out CURIEs, the above works.
15:44:29 <msporny> markbirbeck: The proposal doesn't hinge on @profile or @token - it's just a way to use colon-less reserved words in @property/@rel/etc.
15:45:00 <msporny> benadida: I don't think we can look at that goal separately from making the syntax simpler.
15:47:42 <msporny> benadida: If we're looking at the end-goal - looking at the proposal piece-meal doesn't help.
15:48:53 <msporny> markbirbeck: What I want to stress is that the rdf:subproperty approach requires some mechanism to load an external document.
15:50:35 <benadida> google's markup:
15:50:36 <benadida> <div xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#" typeof="v:Review">
15:50:36 <benadida>    <p><strong><span property="v:itemReviewed">Blast 'Em Up</span> 
15:50:36 <benadida> Review</strong></p>
15:50:36 <benadida>    <p>by <span property="v:reviewer">Bob Smith</span></p>
15:50:37 <benadida>    <p><span property="v:dtReviewed">March 20, 2009</span></p>
15:50:38 <benadida>    <p><span property="v:description">This is a great game. I 
15:50:40 <benadida> enjoyed it from the opening battle to the final showdown 
15:50:42 <benadida> with the evil aliens.</span></p>
15:50:44 <benadida>    <p><span property="v:rating">4.5</span> out of 5 stars</p>
15:50:46 <benadida> </div>
15:51:21 <benadida> <div prefix="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#" typeof="Review">
15:51:22 <benadida>    <p><strong><span property="itemReviewed">Blast 'Em Up</span> 
15:51:22 <benadida> Review</strong></p>
15:51:22 <benadida> ...
15:52:05 <msporny> benadida: You have to dereference at some point.
15:52:14 <msporny> benadida: But the key is, /when/ you do it.
15:52:36 <msporny> benadida: Mark, in your proposal, until you dereference the 3rd party resource, you've got nothing that you can do any processing on.
15:52:59 <msporny> markbirbeck: If you went the @profile route, then yes, you are correct.
15:53:06 <msporny> markbirbeck: There are different ways of doing it.
15:53:23 <msporny> markbirbeck: One way is where @profile is hardwired or well-known.
15:54:01 <msporny> markbirbeck: Your proposal achieves something different than where I see the whole Microformats-style going.
15:54:15 <ShaneM> Note that these two approaches (token and default prefix) are complementary.
15:54:27 <msporny> markbirbeck: provided that they don't use any of the standard terms (such as next/prev/etc).
15:54:52 <msporny> prefix : reference
15:55:35 <ShaneM> q+ to disagree about what curies know about references
15:55:41 <msporny> ack xmlns:
15:55:43 <msporny> ack IE
15:55:46 <msporny> ack msporny
15:56:02 <msporny> noooooooo!
15:56:05 <msporny> :)
15:57:10 <msporny> markbirbeck: With your proposal, its very difficult to mix vocabularies.
15:57:27 <msporny> markbirbeck: doing this is difficult if not impossible: profile="a=b c=d"
15:57:33 <msporny> markbirbeck: with your proposal.
15:57:47 <msporny> benadida: There is some way that we need to resolve these reserved words.
15:57:57 <msporny> benadida: To fully resolve it, I'd rather we delegate it to the RDF stack.
15:58:09 <msporny> benadida: Rather than pushing that functionality into the RDFa processor.
15:58:32 <msporny> benadida: Adding another layer of resolution in the parser is going to cause us more problems than solve issues.
15:59:43 <msporny> markbirbeck: That is a separate discussion - how do we load other stuff.
15:59:55 <msporny> markbirbeck: Even if you forget the owl:sameAs stuff.
16:00:02 <msporny> markbirbeck: One issue is how we map things.
16:00:19 <msporny> markbirbeck: how do we map yahoo's products to google's products.
16:00:23 <msporny> markbirbeck: I'm not talking about that.
16:00:31 <msporny> markbirbeck: I'm talking about simply the abbreviation mechanism.
16:00:46 <msporny> markbirbeck: my criticism of your proposal, is that there are 2 major criticisms.
16:00:56 <msporny> markbirbeck: one - you're using suffixes instead of tokens
16:01:17 <msporny> markbirbeck: we came up with an algorithm in XHTML+RDFa so that you can distinguish those from values.
16:01:37 <msporny> markbirbeck: problem two - you only solve the problem for one vocabulary in any given context.
16:01:47 <msporny> benadida: problem one is a small weakness - I agree.
16:01:55 <msporny> benadida: problem two, I disagree with.
16:02:34 <msporny> benadida: Google can, in their schema, say v:title maps to dc:title
16:03:28 <msporny> markbirbeck: What happens when I want to add properties from the Good Relations vocabulary?
16:03:59 <msporny> markbirbeck: how can I mix vocabularies?
16:04:06 <msporny> benadida: That's not a problem, it's a feature
16:04:21 <msporny> benadida: We're addressing authors that want to just use one vocabulary.
16:04:45 <ShaneM> q+ to mention that authors can create hybrid vocabs too
16:04:50 <msporny> markbirbeck: We're getting to the crux of the problem we're trying to solve.
16:05:08 <msporny> markbirbeck: Most may not understand how to mix vocabularies.
16:06:09 <msporny> markbirbeck: Most of the work I'm doing requires that you use many, many vocabularies.
16:06:20 <msporny> markbirbeck: We should work out what we're trying to achieve.
16:06:36 <msporny> ack shanem
16:06:36 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to disagree about what curies know about references and to mention that authors can create hybrid vocabs too
16:06:57 <msporny> ShaneM: I disagree that CURIEs don't know about references.
16:07:16 <msporny> ShaneM: we built into a CURIEs a way to specify a default prefix.
16:07:28 <msporny> ShaneM: reserved words are also processed first.
16:07:40 <msporny> ShaneM: I think being able to set the default prefix can be enabled.
16:08:14 <msporny> benadida: What are the next steps?
16:08:29 <msporny> markbirbeck: There may be a way of harmonizing the two.
16:08:40 <msporny> ShaneM: The two proposals are complimentary.
16:08:53 <ShaneM> I wonder if it is possible to define a hybrid "vocabulary" that encompasses all of the existing microformat terms?  
16:09:20 <msporny> markbirbeck: Ben, your proposal is that we enable default prefix.
16:09:59 <msporny> markbirbeck: If we're happy that @token is resolved, then we may be able to enable default prefix.
16:10:28 <msporny> benadida: Worried about teaching these features.
16:10:38 <msporny> markbirbeck: I think we focus on the language elements that address the use cases.
16:11:13 <ShaneM> reserved terms are checked first in the RDFa processing model... If we permitted "tokens" then those would get evaluated before looking for a default prefix.  Ben seems to agree with this.
16:12:15 <msporny> benadida: I'm worried about the consequences to the stack with your solution... what role are we giving the parser.
16:14:03 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:14:05 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:16:54 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
16:23:55 <Zakim> -msporny
16:23:56 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:23:57 <Zakim> Attendees were msporny, ShaneM, Ben_Adida, +1.208.761.aaaa, markbirbeck
16:41:17 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:41:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:41:39 <msporny> regrets+ Steven_Pemberton
16:41:49 <msporny> regrets+ Ralph_Swick
16:41:51 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:41:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:42:42 <msporny> s/minutes.html#action10]/minutes.html#action10] -- continues/
16:42:43 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:42:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:58:22 <msporny> rrsagent, bye
16:58:22 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:58:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to summarize architectural issues (security) re: @profile proposal for tokenizing the web. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [1]
16:58:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-irc#T15-08-49
16:58:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to produce proposed diff re: XMLLiteral change [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [2]
16:58:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-irc#T15-09-44
16:58:22 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to author wiki page with charter template for RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [3]
16:58:22 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/06-rdfa-irc#T15-10-05