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06:29:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:29:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
06:29:21 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:29:21 <trackbot> Date: 05 August 2009
06:29:41 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
06:29:48 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
06:29:52 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
06:29:52 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
06:31:06 <Zakim> +??P1
06:31:32 <Zakim> +??P2
06:31:46 <jwatt> hmm
06:31:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
06:31:48 <shepazu> Zakim, ??P1 is me
06:31:48 <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
06:31:58 <anthony> Zakim, [IP is me
06:31:58 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
06:32:28 <jwatt> Zakim, ??P2 is me
06:32:28 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
06:32:44 <jwatt> Zakim, ??P2 isn't actually me, I was just joking
06:32:44 <Zakim> I don't understand you, jwatt
06:32:49 <jwatt> idiot
06:34:38 <jwatt> Zakim, who's noisy
06:34:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', jwatt
06:34:39 <jwatt> ack
06:35:02 <Zakim> -shepazu
06:35:51 <shepazu> zakim, code?
06:35:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
06:36:22 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
06:36:35 <Zakim> + +1.919.824.aaaa
06:36:50 <shepazu> Zakim, aaaa is me
06:36:50 <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
06:37:17 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
06:37:17 <heycam> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/0024.html
06:37:45 <anthony> Topic: SVG DOM improvements
06:38:02 <anthony> CM: DS you just sent an email about this
06:38:04 <anthony> DS: I did
06:38:18 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/mid/4A791DAB.1020504@w3.org
06:38:18 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Aug/0010.html
06:38:50 <anthony> DS: Occurred to me how can we find out what methods are used
06:39:01 <anthony> ... could look at the libraries Dojo
06:39:14 <anthony> ... and what other libraries think are available to browers
06:39:21 <anthony> ... might give us a clue to the degree of use
06:39:53 <anthony> ... and those libraries would be affected by any changes we make in the DOM
06:39:57 <anthony> ... so we need to look at those
06:40:08 <anthony> ... we need to be careful about what we change
06:40:48 <anthony> ... I think it would be really valuable to make a survey of what DOM methods are implemented
06:40:57 <anthony> ... be useful to figure out interoperability
06:42:05 <anthony> CM: I opened up a couple of example pages
06:42:19 <anthony> ... and some were pretty impressive
06:43:13 <anthony> DS: If we can figure out what DOM methods are used and implemented
06:43:20 <anthony> ... we can use that as a starting point
06:43:30 <anthony> ... to figure out what things we change, if we change anything
06:44:13 <anthony> CM: Figuring out what is implemented is easy and something we can do
06:44:32 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
06:45:07 <anthony> DS: Dojo may not code to the lowest common denominator
06:45:20 <anthony> ... so may only be one method to survey what's out there
06:45:38 <Zakim> +ChrisL
06:45:40 <anthony> CM: So if it's not implemented it may be an indication that it's not used out there
06:45:59 <anthony> ... ideally the test suite will test the the features so we can figure out what's implemented
06:46:13 <anthony> DS: I'm not convinced that the test suite tests all of the interface
06:46:21 <anthony> CM: How do you want to go about it?
06:46:31 <anthony> DS: It may be something we can automate
06:46:52 <anthony> ... as a first pass solution we can go through the methods to see if they return something
06:46:59 <anthony> ... and that might be a really fast way of doing it
06:47:02 <anthony> ... as survey
06:47:09 <anthony> ... not testing implementability
06:47:13 <anthony> ... just seeing if it's done
06:47:37 <anthony> ... If people are open to it, I'd like for us to have some actions come out of this
06:47:51 <anthony> CM: Maybe a good way to go about this is to have a wiki page that has the interfaces
06:47:55 <anthony> ... and assign them to people
06:47:59 <anthony> DS: Sounds like a good idea
06:48:09 <anthony> CM: I don't mind being assigned interfaces
06:48:27 <anthony> ... so whoever makes the wiki page can randomly assign them
06:48:37 <anthony> ... are you going to do that [DS]?
06:48:40 <anthony> DS: I suppose I could
06:48:58 <anthony> AG: Anyway to use the IDL?
06:49:21 <anthony> CM: When it builds the spec it creates an XML doc with the method names and the return types
06:49:31 <anthony> ... since I'm familiar with the file
06:49:35 <anthony> ... I could whip something up
06:50:00 <anthony> ACTION: Cameron to Extract the interface and method names from the IDL
06:50:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2645 - Extract the interface and method names from the IDL [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-08-12].
06:50:29 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to Follow up on ACTION-2645 and assign work to the extracted interface and method names
06:50:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2646 - Follow up on ACTION-2645 and assign work to the extracted interface and method names [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-08-12].
06:51:28 <anthony> DS: JWatt you had some issues with what I had worked up with the APIs
06:51:49 <anthony> s/APIs/DOM APIs/
06:53:19 <anthony> JW: That what was a while ago
06:53:26 <anthony> ... I think I can remember changing the names
06:53:37 <anthony> ... so for things like CreateElement
06:54:08 <heycam> s/CreateElement/document.createElement/
06:54:16 <anthony> ... We have that method on that document interface already
06:54:25 <anthony> ... the suggestion was to add it to the element inteface
06:55:42 <anthony> ... what I was thinking that when you create an element it puts in the name space of the element you just called upon
06:55:54 <anthony> s/upon/it on/
06:56:08 <ChrisL> that sounds like a useful default
06:56:10 <anthony> ... so when you have some SVG element and you want to create some children you don't have to
06:56:17 <anthony> ... specify the name space every time
06:56:49 <anthony> ... the problem with document.createElement is it puts it in the NULL space
06:57:20 <anthony> ... it would be nice if each element could take an object to set the attributes, the main thing I was thinking about
06:57:26 <anthony> ... was getting rid of the name space stuff
06:57:31 <anthony> ... which people seem to find so hard
06:57:59 <ChrisL> element.dwim.createElement :)
06:58:04 <anthony> ... then it would have a different behaviour with elements that have name spaces
06:58:19 <heycam> Web DOM Core (zcorpan's DOM Core rewrite) says document.createElement() uses the HTML namespace: http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core#dom-document-createelement
06:58:53 <anthony> CL: Someone has done this and use the HTML name space
06:58:59 <anthony> ... see above link
06:59:31 <anthony> JW: That's in the HTML name space
07:00:09 <anthony> ... Opera and Webkit stick it in the HTML name space
07:00:19 <anthony> ... FF puts it in the NULL name space
07:00:24 <anthony> ... but either way it will still work
07:00:28 <jwatt> JW: not sure about Opera
07:01:10 <anthony> CL: What they've done is that they've made it easy for HTML and harder for everyone else
07:02:03 <anthony> JW: Basically we could do the same on other documents
07:02:13 <anthony> ... I was think we could go to the name space of the root element 
07:02:26 <anthony> ...and when the document is created it uses the root name space
07:02:36 <anthony> CM: I think that's a good idea actually
07:02:50 <anthony> DS: I think this is do-able, I don't think it's enough
07:03:11 <anthony> JW: By doing that it would no longer be inconsistent
07:03:42 <Zakim> -heycam
07:04:08 <anthony> ... to make element.CreateElement use the name space of the element on which it's called
07:04:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
07:04:38 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
07:04:38 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
07:04:44 <anthony> ... and then hopefully that will simplify things for users
07:04:52 <anthony> DS: I understand what you are saying
07:05:10 <anthony> ... I think that is a good first stab at implementing something better
07:06:12 <anthony> ... I made a script library
07:06:17 <anthony> ... that does such sorts of things
07:06:23 <anthony> ... I just don't think it goes far enough
07:06:32 <anthony> ... I don't think that's the real thing that makes it hard to use SVG
07:07:02 <anthony> ... I think the real problem the element not being immediately being inserted into the DOM
07:07:11 <anthony> ... I think there is a case for that
07:07:35 <anthony> ... I think there is a case to have a method that inserts and sets the attributes
07:07:52 <anthony> JW: It makes sense to extend that
07:08:02 <anthony> DS: That's where I disagree
07:08:15 <anthony> ... I think we'd be overloading CreateElement
07:08:29 <anthony> JW: You're saying that forget about the name space issues for the moment
07:08:45 <heycam> this works for me in firefox:  javascript:HTMLDocument.prototype.createElement=function(n){alert('yo '+n)};document.createElement('svg')
07:09:25 <anthony> ... passing in parameters to pass in object literals for attribute values
07:09:34 <anthony> DS: I can see both sides of this issue
07:09:48 <anthony> ... I personally think it's being overridden in this way
07:10:02 <anthony> ... I don't know what effect it would have on the JavaScript
07:10:13 <anthony> CM: There is overloading in Java
07:10:18 <anthony> JW: Default arguments?
07:10:20 <anthony> CM: No
07:10:26 <anthony> ... effectively you can do something like that
07:10:32 <anthony> JW: You can get the same effect?
07:10:34 <anthony> CM: Yes
07:10:55 <anthony> ... To me this passing in attributes to CreateElement to create the element makes sense
07:11:15 <anthony> ... We could pass in a dictionary name of values
07:11:22 <anthony> ... e.g. a map of objects
07:11:37 <anthony> DS: So when I was talking about adding some methods to SVG
07:11:46 <anthony> ... we were talking about one thing
07:12:04 <anthony> ... but here we are talking about overriding CreateElement
07:12:15 <anthony> ... and this puts us into the same area as the WebApps working group
07:12:29 <anthony> CM: Is WebApps going to continue to work on DOM Core?
07:12:36 <anthony> DS: Not sure what's going to happen to that document
07:12:47 <anthony> ... we have talked about taking on WebDOM
07:13:47 <anthony> ... I'm concerned about the length of time it would take to do that
07:13:57 <anthony> ... it something we need to take to the WebApps working group
07:14:09 <anthony> ... I'm not absolutely that they would want to take on these features
07:14:28 <anthony> ... I'm concerned that some of the things we are trying to do here is at odds with what they are doing
07:14:48 <anthony> JW: To me it's a no-brainer whether it goes through them or not
07:15:19 <anthony> DS: I've proposed things that I thought were pretty sensible
07:15:39 <anthony> ... and they got caught up
07:19:54 <anthony> ... I can bring this to the WebApps working group and see what they say
07:22:10 <anthony> CL: Has there been any feedback about it?
07:22:16 <anthony> ... how have they responded?
07:22:20 <anthony> DS: People like it
07:22:37 <anthony> CM: I would rather take it to WebApps first
07:22:43 <anthony> ... and if nobody is interested there
07:22:49 <anthony> ... we can work on it ourselves
07:23:56 <anthony> DS: I guess the other part is I like the insert interface
07:24:06 <anthony> ... which is different to CreateElement
07:24:26 <anthony> ... InsertElement and InsertElementNS would basically need the element name and optionally the name space
07:24:30 <Zakim> -shepazu
07:24:50 <Zakim> +shepazu
07:25:17 <shepazu> Element.prototype.insertElement = function( elementName, attributeObj, index ) {
07:25:33 <shepazu> Element.prototype.insertElementNS = function( namespace, elementName, attributeObj, index ) {
07:25:52 <anthony> DS: The first one would insert it into the name space
07:26:05 <anthony> ... the second creates the element in the name space you specify
07:26:17 <anthony> ... the index can be left off
07:26:27 <anthony> ... or if there the location of where you want to insert it
07:26:45 <anthony> ... it would be a bit faster and a convenience
07:26:53 <shepazu> Element.prototype.insertAtIndex = function( el, index ) {
07:27:21 <anthony> ... Rather than insert before element or insert after element
07:27:25 <anthony> ... have an insert at index
07:27:29 <anthony> ... this is where I want this element
07:28:10 <anthony> CM: It's odd there is only insert before
07:28:25 <anthony> DS: I think it was an over looked
07:28:30 <anthony> ... so this just solves all the cases
07:28:35 <heycam> s/insert before/insertBefore/
07:28:59 <anthony> ... I'd like to actually propose all of these
07:29:18 <anthony> JW: It wasn't that it was ideas that I talked about it was that the names were changed
07:29:28 <anthony> ... InsertElement and InsertElementNS
07:29:37 <anthony> ... to me it's like InsertBefore
07:30:18 <anthony> ... I wouldn't be expecting to pass a name
07:30:51 <anthony> ... CreateElement and CreateChild is what I'd like use as the naming sorts
07:31:11 <anthony> DS: I think CreateChild is a little vague but I'm not going to argue that
07:31:55 <anthony> JW: It almost makes sense to have just one function
07:31:59 <anthony> ... and just overload it
07:32:08 <anthony> ... to allow it to insert at another index
07:32:22 <anthony> ... It could be a bit of a problem because, if you have an index
07:32:29 <anthony> ... by default you want to create it so it doesn't append
07:32:38 <anthony> ... but you want to also pass something in
07:32:40 <anthony> ... for an index
07:32:43 <anthony> ... or append
07:33:09 <anthony> ... I guess -1 could be the default
07:33:17 <anthony> ... and that would mean do not insert this a child
07:33:23 <anthony> DS: Please no
07:33:35 <anthony> ... using -1 as a default is not a good idea
07:34:01 <ChrisL> (reminds me of putting -999 into data as a "missing value" value)
07:34:07 <anthony> AG: Using -1 is a bad idea
07:35:37 <anthony> CM: Don't think about it as defaults
07:35:43 <anthony> ... think about it as overloaded methods
07:36:03 <anthony> JW: Lets make it undefined then, it doesn't get inserted
07:36:17 <anthony> CM: I think it if you don't pass the value in at all
07:36:43 <anthony> JW: I guess I'm coming at this from the way our implementation works
07:37:41 <anthony> ... you could say passing in a negative number does a prepend
07:37:57 <anthony> CM: I don't think it's something we need to discuss if it's an implementation detail
07:38:10 <anthony> DS: We need to define what negative numbers do
07:38:21 <anthony> ... I wouldn't object to overloading CreateElement so much
07:38:37 <anthony> ... but we may constrain what is useful
07:38:50 <anthony> CM: I think I agree with Doug with the index thing
07:39:09 <anthony> ... I'm happy with overloading with specifying attributes
07:39:36 <anthony> JW: I'm not as enthusiastic about adding an index to CreateElement as I am to other methods
07:39:52 <anthony> DS: Having CreateElement and CreateChild makes more sense to me
07:39:58 <anthony> ... then overloading CreateElement
07:40:02 <ChrisL> element.addKid
07:40:35 <jwatt> heh
07:40:41 <jwatt> nice and short
07:41:32 <anthony> CM: I agree we should have some functionality to create an element and add some attributes
07:41:51 <anthony> JW: I agree, which is why I thought of having CreateElement and CreateChild
07:42:35 <anthony> ... if you guys are happy to have it as two methods then I'm find with that
07:42:38 <jwatt> s/CreateElement/createElement/
07:42:49 <jwatt> s/CreateChild/createChild/
07:43:17 <anthony> DS: I think InsertElement at index if you want to insert things at a different location
07:43:59 <anthony> ... I can draft something up
07:44:23 <shepazu> Topic: DOMFocusIn, DOMFocusOut, and DOMActivate
07:44:57 <anthony> DS: In DOM 3 Events we are talkinga bout deprecating DOMFocusIn/Out/Activate
07:45:02 <anthony> CL: What would use instead?
07:45:12 <anthony> DS: Focus/Blur/Click
07:45:30 <anthony> DS: FocusIn/Out both bubble
07:45:37 <anthony> ... Focus/Blur do niot
07:45:43 <anthony> s/niot/not/
07:49:29 <anthony> ... FocusIn/FocusOut have been proposed to be deprecated
07:50:05 <anthony> ... If they were in SVG we'd add a note in the errata that these are being deprecated in DOM 3 Events
07:50:24 <anthony> ... we'd just be noting that these things are available
07:50:36 <anthony> ... I don't think that there is a problem with noting that
07:50:48 <anthony> ... I don't know how much content uses them
07:50:52 <anthony> ... I've seen them used though
07:50:58 <anthony> JW: I've seen them used though
07:51:16 <anthony> ... I don't know Mozilla would get this to fly
07:51:29 <anthony> ... Webkit would probably follow if Mozilla did it
07:51:54 <anthony> ... it seems to me you have a button and it can either be activated by clicking on it or focus and pressing a key
07:52:04 <anthony> DS: Those things do generate a click event
07:52:21 <anthony> JW: So click doesn't necessarily mean click
07:52:48 <anthony> ... is this the behaviour of all browsers already?
07:52:52 <anthony> DS: Yes, I'm pretty sure
07:52:55 <anthony> ... I did a test
07:53:03 <anthony> JW: There is still a bubble issue then
07:53:17 <anthony> ... can the others be changed?
07:53:19 <anthony> DS: No
07:53:32 <anthony> ... I think there are uses for the bubbling
07:53:50 <anthony> ... the Xform guys thought there might be a use for bubbling
07:54:06 <Zakim> -shepazu
07:54:23 <Zakim> +shepazu
07:54:34 <Zakim> -shepazu
07:54:56 <Zakim> +shepazu
07:55:13 <anthony> CM: I guess you're looking for an indication from us
07:55:27 <anthony> ... whether it's ok
07:55:33 <anthony> DS: I'd like to get your feedback
07:55:48 <anthony> ... I think I'll probably deprecate them, unless I here a really strong argument about it
07:57:23 <anthony> CM: I agree with the general sense to reduce duplication
07:57:36 <anthony> ... I don't know how much content extists
07:57:46 <anthony> ... but it would be good to move to a common set
07:58:00 <anthony> ... I'm not sure of use case for bubbling
07:58:17 <anthony> DS: Did my analysis of what we could do for Tiny 1.2 and Full 1.1 seem ok?
07:58:21 <anthony> CL: It seems reasonable
07:58:27 <anthony> ... I mean we don't really have much of a choice
07:58:37 <anthony> DS: From a process point of view is it ok?
07:59:18 <anthony> ... I'm interested in making SVG as usable to authors as possible
07:59:25 <anthony> ... on thing I haven't tested is Focus/Blur in SVG
07:59:59 <anthony> ... I suspect in FF and other mainstream browsers it works
08:05:41 <Zakim> -shepazu
08:05:59 <Zakim> -heycam
08:06:00 <Zakim> -ChrisL
08:06:02 <Zakim> -anthony
08:06:07 <Zakim> -jwatt
08:06:08 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended
08:06:09 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], heycam, shepazu, anthony, jwatt, +1.919.824.aaaa, ChrisL
08:08:05 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:08:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/05-svg-minutes.html anthony
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