IRC log of svg on 2009-08-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:29:16 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
06:29:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/08/05-svg-irc
06:29:18 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
06:29:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
06:29:20 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:29:20 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
06:29:21 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:29:21 [trackbot]
Date: 05 August 2009
06:29:41 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
06:29:48 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
06:29:52 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
06:29:52 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
06:31:06 [Zakim]
+??P1
06:31:32 [Zakim]
+??P2
06:31:46 [jwatt]
hmm
06:31:47 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
06:31:48 [shepazu]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
06:31:48 [Zakim]
+shepazu; got it
06:31:58 [anthony]
Zakim, [IP is me
06:31:58 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
06:32:28 [jwatt]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
06:32:28 [Zakim]
+jwatt; got it
06:32:44 [jwatt]
Zakim, ??P2 isn't actually me, I was just joking
06:32:44 [Zakim]
I don't understand you, jwatt
06:32:49 [jwatt]
idiot
06:34:38 [jwatt]
Zakim, who's noisy
06:34:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's noisy', jwatt
06:34:39 [jwatt]
ack
06:35:02 [Zakim]
-shepazu
06:35:51 [shepazu]
zakim, code?
06:35:51 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
06:36:22 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
06:36:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.919.824.aaaa
06:36:50 [shepazu]
Zakim, aaaa is me
06:36:50 [Zakim]
+shepazu; got it
06:37:17 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
06:37:17 [heycam]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/0024.html
06:37:45 [anthony]
Topic: SVG DOM improvements
06:38:02 [anthony]
CM: DS you just sent an email about this
06:38:04 [anthony]
DS: I did
06:38:18 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/4A791DAB.1020504@w3.org
06:38:18 [shepazu]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Aug/0010.html
06:38:50 [anthony]
DS: Occurred to me how can we find out what methods are used
06:39:01 [anthony]
... could look at the libraries Dojo
06:39:14 [anthony]
... and what other libraries think are available to browers
06:39:21 [anthony]
... might give us a clue to the degree of use
06:39:53 [anthony]
... and those libraries would be affected by any changes we make in the DOM
06:39:57 [anthony]
... so we need to look at those
06:40:08 [anthony]
... we need to be careful about what we change
06:40:48 [anthony]
... I think it would be really valuable to make a survey of what DOM methods are implemented
06:40:57 [anthony]
... be useful to figure out interoperability
06:42:05 [anthony]
CM: I opened up a couple of example pages
06:42:19 [anthony]
... and some were pretty impressive
06:43:13 [anthony]
DS: If we can figure out what DOM methods are used and implemented
06:43:20 [anthony]
... we can use that as a starting point
06:43:30 [anthony]
... to figure out what things we change, if we change anything
06:44:13 [anthony]
CM: Figuring out what is implemented is easy and something we can do
06:44:32 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
06:45:07 [anthony]
DS: Dojo may not code to the lowest common denominator
06:45:20 [anthony]
... so may only be one method to survey what's out there
06:45:38 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
06:45:40 [anthony]
CM: So if it's not implemented it may be an indication that it's not used out there
06:45:59 [anthony]
... ideally the test suite will test the the features so we can figure out what's implemented
06:46:13 [anthony]
DS: I'm not convinced that the test suite tests all of the interface
06:46:21 [anthony]
CM: How do you want to go about it?
06:46:31 [anthony]
DS: It may be something we can automate
06:46:52 [anthony]
... as a first pass solution we can go through the methods to see if they return something
06:46:59 [anthony]
... and that might be a really fast way of doing it
06:47:02 [anthony]
... as survey
06:47:09 [anthony]
... not testing implementability
06:47:13 [anthony]
... just seeing if it's done
06:47:37 [anthony]
... If people are open to it, I'd like for us to have some actions come out of this
06:47:51 [anthony]
CM: Maybe a good way to go about this is to have a wiki page that has the interfaces
06:47:55 [anthony]
... and assign them to people
06:47:59 [anthony]
DS: Sounds like a good idea
06:48:09 [anthony]
CM: I don't mind being assigned interfaces
06:48:27 [anthony]
... so whoever makes the wiki page can randomly assign them
06:48:37 [anthony]
... are you going to do that [DS]?
06:48:40 [anthony]
DS: I suppose I could
06:48:58 [anthony]
AG: Anyway to use the IDL?
06:49:21 [anthony]
CM: When it builds the spec it creates an XML doc with the method names and the return types
06:49:31 [anthony]
... since I'm familiar with the file
06:49:35 [anthony]
... I could whip something up
06:50:00 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to Extract the interface and method names from the IDL
06:50:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2645 - Extract the interface and method names from the IDL [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-08-12].
06:50:29 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Follow up on ACTION-2645 and assign work to the extracted interface and method names
06:50:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2646 - Follow up on ACTION-2645 and assign work to the extracted interface and method names [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-08-12].
06:51:28 [anthony]
DS: JWatt you had some issues with what I had worked up with the APIs
06:51:49 [anthony]
s/APIs/DOM APIs/
06:53:19 [anthony]
JW: That what was a while ago
06:53:26 [anthony]
... I think I can remember changing the names
06:53:37 [anthony]
... so for things like CreateElement
06:54:08 [heycam]
s/CreateElement/document.createElement/
06:54:16 [anthony]
... We have that method on that document interface already
06:54:25 [anthony]
... the suggestion was to add it to the element inteface
06:55:42 [anthony]
... what I was thinking that when you create an element it puts in the name space of the element you just called upon
06:55:54 [anthony]
s/upon/it on/
06:56:08 [ChrisL]
that sounds like a useful default
06:56:10 [anthony]
... so when you have some SVG element and you want to create some children you don't have to
06:56:17 [anthony]
... specify the name space every time
06:56:49 [anthony]
... the problem with document.createElement is it puts it in the NULL space
06:57:20 [anthony]
... it would be nice if each element could take an object to set the attributes, the main thing I was thinking about
06:57:26 [anthony]
... was getting rid of the name space stuff
06:57:31 [anthony]
... which people seem to find so hard
06:57:59 [ChrisL]
element.dwim.createElement :)
06:58:04 [anthony]
... then it would have a different behaviour with elements that have name spaces
06:58:19 [heycam]
Web DOM Core (zcorpan's DOM Core rewrite) says document.createElement() uses the HTML namespace: http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core#dom-document-createelement
06:58:53 [anthony]
CL: Someone has done this and use the HTML name space
06:58:59 [anthony]
... see above link
06:59:31 [anthony]
JW: That's in the HTML name space
07:00:09 [anthony]
... Opera and Webkit stick it in the HTML name space
07:00:19 [anthony]
... FF puts it in the NULL name space
07:00:24 [anthony]
... but either way it will still work
07:00:28 [jwatt]
JW: not sure about Opera
07:01:10 [anthony]
CL: What they've done is that they've made it easy for HTML and harder for everyone else
07:02:03 [anthony]
JW: Basically we could do the same on other documents
07:02:13 [anthony]
... I was think we could go to the name space of the root element
07:02:26 [anthony]
...and when the document is created it uses the root name space
07:02:36 [anthony]
CM: I think that's a good idea actually
07:02:50 [anthony]
DS: I think this is do-able, I don't think it's enough
07:03:11 [anthony]
JW: By doing that it would no longer be inconsistent
07:03:42 [Zakim]
-heycam
07:04:08 [anthony]
... to make element.CreateElement use the name space of the element on which it's called
07:04:37 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
07:04:38 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
07:04:38 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
07:04:44 [anthony]
... and then hopefully that will simplify things for users
07:04:52 [anthony]
DS: I understand what you are saying
07:05:10 [anthony]
... I think that is a good first stab at implementing something better
07:06:12 [anthony]
... I made a script library
07:06:17 [anthony]
... that does such sorts of things
07:06:23 [anthony]
... I just don't think it goes far enough
07:06:32 [anthony]
... I don't think that's the real thing that makes it hard to use SVG
07:07:02 [anthony]
... I think the real problem the element not being immediately being inserted into the DOM
07:07:11 [anthony]
... I think there is a case for that
07:07:35 [anthony]
... I think there is a case to have a method that inserts and sets the attributes
07:07:52 [anthony]
JW: It makes sense to extend that
07:08:02 [anthony]
DS: That's where I disagree
07:08:15 [anthony]
... I think we'd be overloading CreateElement
07:08:29 [anthony]
JW: You're saying that forget about the name space issues for the moment
07:08:45 [heycam]
this works for me in firefox: javascript:HTMLDocument.prototype.createElement=function(n){alert('yo '+n)};document.createElement('svg')
07:09:25 [anthony]
... passing in parameters to pass in object literals for attribute values
07:09:34 [anthony]
DS: I can see both sides of this issue
07:09:48 [anthony]
... I personally think it's being overridden in this way
07:10:02 [anthony]
... I don't know what effect it would have on the JavaScript
07:10:13 [anthony]
CM: There is overloading in Java
07:10:18 [anthony]
JW: Default arguments?
07:10:20 [anthony]
CM: No
07:10:26 [anthony]
... effectively you can do something like that
07:10:32 [anthony]
JW: You can get the same effect?
07:10:34 [anthony]
CM: Yes
07:10:55 [anthony]
... To me this passing in attributes to CreateElement to create the element makes sense
07:11:15 [anthony]
... We could pass in a dictionary name of values
07:11:22 [anthony]
... e.g. a map of objects
07:11:37 [anthony]
DS: So when I was talking about adding some methods to SVG
07:11:46 [anthony]
... we were talking about one thing
07:12:04 [anthony]
... but here we are talking about overriding CreateElement
07:12:15 [anthony]
... and this puts us into the same area as the WebApps working group
07:12:29 [anthony]
CM: Is WebApps going to continue to work on DOM Core?
07:12:36 [anthony]
DS: Not sure what's going to happen to that document
07:12:47 [anthony]
... we have talked about taking on WebDOM
07:13:47 [anthony]
... I'm concerned about the length of time it would take to do that
07:13:57 [anthony]
... it something we need to take to the WebApps working group
07:14:09 [anthony]
... I'm not absolutely that they would want to take on these features
07:14:28 [anthony]
... I'm concerned that some of the things we are trying to do here is at odds with what they are doing
07:14:48 [anthony]
JW: To me it's a no-brainer whether it goes through them or not
07:15:19 [anthony]
DS: I've proposed things that I thought were pretty sensible
07:15:39 [anthony]
... and they got caught up
07:19:54 [anthony]
... I can bring this to the WebApps working group and see what they say
07:22:10 [anthony]
CL: Has there been any feedback about it?
07:22:16 [anthony]
... how have they responded?
07:22:20 [anthony]
DS: People like it
07:22:37 [anthony]
CM: I would rather take it to WebApps first
07:22:43 [anthony]
... and if nobody is interested there
07:22:49 [anthony]
... we can work on it ourselves
07:23:56 [anthony]
DS: I guess the other part is I like the insert interface
07:24:06 [anthony]
... which is different to CreateElement
07:24:26 [anthony]
... InsertElement and InsertElementNS would basically need the element name and optionally the name space
07:24:30 [Zakim]
-shepazu
07:24:50 [Zakim]
+shepazu
07:25:17 [shepazu]
Element.prototype.insertElement = function( elementName, attributeObj, index ) {
07:25:33 [shepazu]
Element.prototype.insertElementNS = function( namespace, elementName, attributeObj, index ) {
07:25:52 [anthony]
DS: The first one would insert it into the name space
07:26:05 [anthony]
... the second creates the element in the name space you specify
07:26:17 [anthony]
... the index can be left off
07:26:27 [anthony]
... or if there the location of where you want to insert it
07:26:45 [anthony]
... it would be a bit faster and a convenience
07:26:53 [shepazu]
Element.prototype.insertAtIndex = function( el, index ) {
07:27:21 [anthony]
... Rather than insert before element or insert after element
07:27:25 [anthony]
... have an insert at index
07:27:29 [anthony]
... this is where I want this element
07:28:10 [anthony]
CM: It's odd there is only insert before
07:28:25 [anthony]
DS: I think it was an over looked
07:28:30 [anthony]
... so this just solves all the cases
07:28:35 [heycam]
s/insert before/insertBefore/
07:28:59 [anthony]
... I'd like to actually propose all of these
07:29:18 [anthony]
JW: It wasn't that it was ideas that I talked about it was that the names were changed
07:29:28 [anthony]
... InsertElement and InsertElementNS
07:29:37 [anthony]
... to me it's like InsertBefore
07:30:18 [anthony]
... I wouldn't be expecting to pass a name
07:30:51 [anthony]
... CreateElement and CreateChild is what I'd like use as the naming sorts
07:31:11 [anthony]
DS: I think CreateChild is a little vague but I'm not going to argue that
07:31:55 [anthony]
JW: It almost makes sense to have just one function
07:31:59 [anthony]
... and just overload it
07:32:08 [anthony]
... to allow it to insert at another index
07:32:22 [anthony]
... It could be a bit of a problem because, if you have an index
07:32:29 [anthony]
... by default you want to create it so it doesn't append
07:32:38 [anthony]
... but you want to also pass something in
07:32:40 [anthony]
... for an index
07:32:43 [anthony]
... or append
07:33:09 [anthony]
... I guess -1 could be the default
07:33:17 [anthony]
... and that would mean do not insert this a child
07:33:23 [anthony]
DS: Please no
07:33:35 [anthony]
... using -1 as a default is not a good idea
07:34:01 [ChrisL]
(reminds me of putting -999 into data as a "missing value" value)
07:34:07 [anthony]
AG: Using -1 is a bad idea
07:35:37 [anthony]
CM: Don't think about it as defaults
07:35:43 [anthony]
... think about it as overloaded methods
07:36:03 [anthony]
JW: Lets make it undefined then, it doesn't get inserted
07:36:17 [anthony]
CM: I think it if you don't pass the value in at all
07:36:43 [anthony]
JW: I guess I'm coming at this from the way our implementation works
07:37:41 [anthony]
... you could say passing in a negative number does a prepend
07:37:57 [anthony]
CM: I don't think it's something we need to discuss if it's an implementation detail
07:38:10 [anthony]
DS: We need to define what negative numbers do
07:38:21 [anthony]
... I wouldn't object to overloading CreateElement so much
07:38:37 [anthony]
... but we may constrain what is useful
07:38:50 [anthony]
CM: I think I agree with Doug with the index thing
07:39:09 [anthony]
... I'm happy with overloading with specifying attributes
07:39:36 [anthony]
JW: I'm not as enthusiastic about adding an index to CreateElement as I am to other methods
07:39:52 [anthony]
DS: Having CreateElement and CreateChild makes more sense to me
07:39:58 [anthony]
... then overloading CreateElement
07:40:02 [ChrisL]
element.addKid
07:40:35 [jwatt]
heh
07:40:41 [jwatt]
nice and short
07:41:32 [anthony]
CM: I agree we should have some functionality to create an element and add some attributes
07:41:51 [anthony]
JW: I agree, which is why I thought of having CreateElement and CreateChild
07:42:35 [anthony]
... if you guys are happy to have it as two methods then I'm find with that
07:42:38 [jwatt]
s/CreateElement/createElement/
07:42:49 [jwatt]
s/CreateChild/createChild/
07:43:17 [anthony]
DS: I think InsertElement at index if you want to insert things at a different location
07:43:59 [anthony]
... I can draft something up
07:44:23 [shepazu]
Topic: DOMFocusIn, DOMFocusOut, and DOMActivate
07:44:57 [anthony]
DS: In DOM 3 Events we are talkinga bout deprecating DOMFocusIn/Out/Activate
07:45:02 [anthony]
CL: What would use instead?
07:45:12 [anthony]
DS: Focus/Blur/Click
07:45:30 [anthony]
DS: FocusIn/Out both bubble
07:45:37 [anthony]
... Focus/Blur do niot
07:45:43 [anthony]
s/niot/not/
07:49:29 [anthony]
... FocusIn/FocusOut have been proposed to be deprecated
07:50:05 [anthony]
... If they were in SVG we'd add a note in the errata that these are being deprecated in DOM 3 Events
07:50:24 [anthony]
... we'd just be noting that these things are available
07:50:36 [anthony]
... I don't think that there is a problem with noting that
07:50:48 [anthony]
... I don't know how much content uses them
07:50:52 [anthony]
... I've seen them used though
07:50:58 [anthony]
JW: I've seen them used though
07:51:16 [anthony]
... I don't know Mozilla would get this to fly
07:51:29 [anthony]
... Webkit would probably follow if Mozilla did it
07:51:54 [anthony]
... it seems to me you have a button and it can either be activated by clicking on it or focus and pressing a key
07:52:04 [anthony]
DS: Those things do generate a click event
07:52:21 [anthony]
JW: So click doesn't necessarily mean click
07:52:48 [anthony]
... is this the behaviour of all browsers already?
07:52:52 [anthony]
DS: Yes, I'm pretty sure
07:52:55 [anthony]
... I did a test
07:53:03 [anthony]
JW: There is still a bubble issue then
07:53:17 [anthony]
... can the others be changed?
07:53:19 [anthony]
DS: No
07:53:32 [anthony]
... I think there are uses for the bubbling
07:53:50 [anthony]
... the Xform guys thought there might be a use for bubbling
07:54:06 [Zakim]
-shepazu
07:54:23 [Zakim]
+shepazu
07:54:34 [Zakim]
-shepazu
07:54:56 [Zakim]
+shepazu
07:55:13 [anthony]
CM: I guess you're looking for an indication from us
07:55:27 [anthony]
... whether it's ok
07:55:33 [anthony]
DS: I'd like to get your feedback
07:55:48 [anthony]
... I think I'll probably deprecate them, unless I here a really strong argument about it
07:57:23 [anthony]
CM: I agree with the general sense to reduce duplication
07:57:36 [anthony]
... I don't know how much content extists
07:57:46 [anthony]
... but it would be good to move to a common set
07:58:00 [anthony]
... I'm not sure of use case for bubbling
07:58:17 [anthony]
DS: Did my analysis of what we could do for Tiny 1.2 and Full 1.1 seem ok?
07:58:21 [anthony]
CL: It seems reasonable
07:58:27 [anthony]
... I mean we don't really have much of a choice
07:58:37 [anthony]
DS: From a process point of view is it ok?
07:59:18 [anthony]
... I'm interested in making SVG as usable to authors as possible
07:59:25 [anthony]
... on thing I haven't tested is Focus/Blur in SVG
07:59:59 [anthony]
... I suspect in FF and other mainstream browsers it works
08:05:41 [Zakim]
-shepazu
08:05:59 [Zakim]
-heycam
08:06:00 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
08:06:02 [Zakim]
-anthony
08:06:07 [Zakim]
-jwatt
08:06:08 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended
08:06:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were [IPcaller], heycam, shepazu, anthony, jwatt, +1.919.824.aaaa, ChrisL
08:08:05 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:08:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/08/05-svg-minutes.html anthony
08:47:44 [heycam]
heycam has joined #svg
11:37:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg