12:59:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wam
12:59:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-wam-irc
13:00:06 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
13:00:09 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
13:00:21 <Zakim> +Marcos
13:00:27 <ArtB> Chair: Art
13:00:34 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0426.html
13:00:41 <ArtB> Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference
13:00:48 <ArtB> Date: 30 July 2009
13:01:15 <Marcos> argh, there is a guy with vacuum cleaner outside my office :( 
13:01:17 <ArtB> Regrets: Frederick, Robin
13:01:20 <drogersuk> drogersuk has joined #wam
13:01:41 <ArtB> Present: Art, Marcos, David, Mohammed
13:02:22 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
13:03:04 <ArtB> Topic: Review and tweak agenda
13:03:11 <ArtB> AB: agenda posted on 29 July ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0426.html ). Any change requests?
13:03:21 <ArtB> [ None ]
13:03:23 <ArtB> Topic: Announcements
13:03:30 <ArtB> AB: No call on August 6; next call is August 13. Any other short announcements?
13:03:38 <mdadas> mdadas has joined #wam
13:03:50 <ArtB> [ None ]
13:03:57 <ArtB> Topic: A&E spec
13:03:58 <Zakim> + +49.208.4.aabb
13:04:05 <ArtB> Present+ Marcin
13:04:17 <ArtB> AB: The A&E spec should be close to being ready for a LCWD publication ( http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-api/ ). There were two related threads recently.
13:04:28 <ArtB> AB: first is "localStorage and preferences" ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0284.html ). Any follow-ups on this thread?
13:05:03 <ArtB> AB: Marcos, where do we stand on this thread?
13:05:17 <ArtB> MC: we decided to keep localStorage
13:05:38 <ArtB> ... we will not try to combine them
13:05:52 <ArtB> AB: any other comments on this thread?
13:06:01 <ArtB> MC: no; conclusion was not to make a change
13:06:27 <ArtB> AB: on July 9 Robin responded ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0156.html ) to the A&E ToDo list with some proposals. Two items appear to be open: 1) need FPWD of Window Modes spec; 2) showNotification method
13:07:07 <timeless_mbp> timeless_mbp has joined #wam
13:07:16 <ArtB> MC: Robin and I spent a lot of time on the A+E spec last week
13:07:33 <ArtB> ... I haven't uploaded the latest changes yet
13:08:05 <ArtB> MC: among the recent changes ....
13:08:10 <ArtB> ... added usage examples
13:08:44 <ArtB> ... remove attributes definitions and point to the related defns in the P+C spec
13:08:54 <ArtB> s/remove att/removed att/
13:08:58 <Zakim> +Josh_Soref
13:09:05 <ArtB> Present+ Josh
13:09:05 <mdadas> mdadas has joined #wam
13:09:18 <ArtB> ... removed window mode attribute
13:09:29 <ArtB> ... it will be defined in the Window Modes spec
13:09:33 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
13:09:33 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
13:09:35 <Zakim> +Mike
13:09:49 <marcin> marcin has joined #wam
13:09:50 <ArtB> ... the A+E spec now has no dependencies on the WM spec
13:09:54 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
13:09:54 <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
13:09:54 <ArtB> Present+ Mike
13:10:01 <ArtB> AB: that's good
13:10:20 <ArtB> MC: so we can now finish A+E ASAP
13:10:28 <ArtB> ... we specified showNotification method
13:10:41 <ArtB> ... it is based on some old text from HTML5
13:10:59 <ArtB> ... it was originally in HTML5 but it was removed from it because of lack of interest by implementors
13:11:08 <ArtB> ... but our use case is a bit different
13:11:30 <ArtB> ... we have only taken the bits we need 
13:11:35 <ArtB> AB: ok; good idea
13:12:17 <ArtB> MC: I made the storage area a "product" wrt conformance
13:12:38 <ArtB> ... but our storage area is different then what is defined in Web Storage spec
13:12:49 <timeless_mbp> s/then/than/
13:12:58 <ArtB> ... because some of our key value pairs are read only
13:13:18 <ArtB> ... e.g. if they are from the config file
13:13:32 <ArtB> AB: any other major changes?
13:13:40 <ArtB> MC: no; I think I've covered them all
13:13:48 <ArtB> ... we are close to having this finished
13:13:56 <ArtB> ... mostly just Editorial changes 
13:14:09 <ArtB> ... some links need to be added
13:14:28 <ArtB> ... may need to put a dependency on HTML5 defitions but not sure
13:14:57 <ArtB> AB: what is the ETA for us to have a doc ready to approve or not a LCWD?
13:15:00 <ArtB> MC: 1 week
13:15:30 <ArtB> AB: we could use the CfC process
13:15:40 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
13:15:40 <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
13:16:00 <ArtB> AB: Mike, can you manage a CfC for A+E LCWD next week?
13:16:20 <ArtB> MS: no, that isn't likely to happen
13:16:40 <ArtB> ... because of the vacation period this isn't a good time to get comments
13:16:43 <ArtB> AB: understood
13:16:44 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
13:16:44 <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
13:18:00 <ArtB> AB: Marcos, by Aug 6 can you send an email to the list that gives the group 1 week to send comments on the proposed LCWD?
13:18:12 <Zakim> + +1.919.536.aacc
13:18:18 <ArtB> ... and then on Aug 13 we can give a Go/NoGo on A+E LCWD
13:18:22 <ArtB> MC: yes; will do
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13:18:32 <ArtB> AB: last comments on A+E?
13:18:37 <Marcos> http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/
13:18:56 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
13:18:56 <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
13:19:34 <ArtB> AB: oh, there is definitely something broken there
13:19:44 <timeless_mbp> Zakim: aacc is abraun 
13:19:51 <ArtB> ... with the P+C link ala .../TR/widgets/
13:19:57 <ArtB> Present+ AndyB
13:20:09 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:20:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-wam-minutes.html ArtB
13:20:20 <Marcos> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/CR-widgets-20090723/
13:20:39 <ArtB> Topic: WARP spec
13:21:01 <ArtB> AB: during the July 9 VC we agreed to publish a LCWD of WARP ( http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-access/ ). However, by the time it was pub ready, I was offline for vacation. Since then, Marcin submitted two related emails. 
13:21:14 <ArtB> AB: first is "@required attribute on <access> element" ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0290.html ). Any comments?
13:21:45 <mdadas> mdadas has joined #wam
13:21:50 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
13:21:50 <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
13:22:10 <ArtB> MH: need to think about <access> in the context of DAP WG
13:22:15 <ArtB> ... and policy formats
13:22:42 <ArtB> ... want access, especially network access, to be handled consistently
13:23:14 <ArtB> ... feature is something we can control; Bryan provided some use cases for controlling network access
13:23:44 <ArtB> ... required attr on <access> was proposed by Bryan
13:24:03 <ArtB> ... it could be specified outside of the W3C
13:24:14 <ArtB> ... but getting consensus in W3C would be best
13:25:07 <ArtB> ... want DAP WG to define access policy 
13:25:32 <ArtB> ... During London f2f meeting we didn't thoroughly discuss this issue, IMO.
13:25:46 <ArtB> MC: I still don't see a good use case for this
13:26:00 <ArtB> ... if operators want to restrict some net access then so be it
13:26:14 <ArtB> ... but that won't make sense in some cases
13:26:31 <ArtB> ... not clear adding this attr helps
13:26:49 <ArtB> ... don't think authors should be bothered with this
13:27:37 <ArtB> MH: don't want to mandate operator define the security policy
13:27:51 <ArtB> ... but may have a use case where a user defines the policy
13:28:18 <ArtB> ... I understand there are different usage scenarios
13:30:19 <ArtB> AB: I'd like to propose we publish the WARP LCWD as is with a long comment period, say until mid-Sept
13:30:36 <ArtB> ... this would allow DAP people, still joining this new WG, some extra time
13:30:43 <ArtB> ... as well as vacationers extra time
13:31:18 <ArtB> ... and then if Marcin, Bryan or anyone else has serious concerns about the model as specified, they can submit comments during the LC comment period
13:31:36 <ArtB> ... I don't want to continue to rehash a decision we already made
13:31:46 <ArtB> AB: any objections to that proposal?
13:31:53 <Zakim> - +33.5.61.30.aaaa
13:31:56 <ArtB> MH: no objection
13:32:07 <ArtB> MC: no objection
13:32:20 <ArtB> RESOLUTION: to publish LCWD of WARP as is
13:32:23 <Zakim> + +33.5.61.30.aadd
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13:32:37 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow submit the publication request for WARP LCWD today
13:32:59 <ArtB> Topic: Window Modes spec
13:33:23 <ArtB> AB: the Window Modes spec ( http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/waf/widgets-wm/ ) hasn't been published yet. Robin submitted a ToDo of things that need to be done before the first publication (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0218.html ) [Thanks Robin!]. We can take some comments now but it would be better to submit your comments to public-webapps.
13:34:14 <ArtB> AB: we no longer have a dependency of A+E on this spec and that's good
13:34:21 <ArtB> ... but the list of items to be done is quite long
13:34:35 <ArtB> AB: any volunteers to help Robin on this?
13:34:50 <ArtB> MH: yes, as a co-Editor of this spec I pinged Robin
13:35:01 <ArtB> ... but didn't get a response yet
13:35:15 <ArtB> AB: how can I help
13:35:32 <ArtB> MH: if you were to follow-up with Robin, that would be good
13:35:58 <ArtB> ... some practical editing questions really
13:36:06 <ArtB> MC: just go ahead and edit the spec
13:36:11 <ArtB> MH: ok; that's fine
13:36:39 <ArtB> AB: is there a risk of overwritting each other changes?
13:36:51 <ArtB> MC: not now since the spec is basically empty
13:37:30 <ArtB> AB: so Marcin, either make a change directly or make a proposal on the list
13:37:33 <ArtB> MH: ok
13:37:41 <ArtB> AB: anything else on WM spec?
13:37:45 <ArtB> [ No ]
13:37:58 <ArtB> Topic: P&C spec
13:38:03 <ArtB> AB: the P&C spec ( http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/ ) is now in Candidate state and that means we have to create the test suite.
13:38:25 <ArtB> AB: Marcos proposed ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0310.html ) a high-level testing strategy. Any comments on this proposal?
13:39:07 <ArtB> DR: how does this tie into the widget testing workshop?
13:39:38 <ArtB> MC: I'm not sure if the output from the WS will be directly useable
13:40:05 <ArtB> ... need to create the template 
13:40:12 <ArtB> ... and then the test cases themselves
13:40:33 <ArtB> ... also need to create the list of assertions
13:41:26 <ArtB> ... perhaps the WS will be used to create more "acid tests" then test case for the spec
13:41:49 <ArtB> DR: this begs the question: why have the WS?
13:42:08 <ArtB> MC: I am very concerned about the quality of the test cases
13:42:28 <ArtB> ... only want high quality test cases in the spec's test suite
13:43:22 <ArtB> AB: any other comments on MC's proposal?
13:43:23 <drogersuk> I am in agreement with Marcos. So the question is, is this an action on Dom?
13:43:30 <ArtB> AB: it looks like a good proposal to me
13:43:49 <ArtB> MC: Kai and I will create the template
13:43:57 <ArtB> ... and a "how to write a test" proposal
13:44:04 <ArtB> ... and then send that to Dom for approval
13:44:26 <ArtB> ... I won't be able to attend the WS
13:45:04 <ArtB> ... if anyone wants to help Kai and I, that would be great
13:45:09 <drogersuk> We need to encourage the right people to come along if you have concerns about the quality too
13:45:44 <ArtB> MC: I think we can start generating tests
13:45:47 <drogersuk> I will circulate to our compliance lists, I suspect there is already some cross-over
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13:45:54 <ArtB> ... Opera may submit their test suite
13:46:06 <ArtB> ... hope the test suite can be completed before the WS
13:46:24 <ArtB> ... and then any test case created at the WS could potentially be added
13:47:31 <ArtB> AB: a general question is how to manage spec changes during the CR phase
13:47:53 <ArtB> ... naturally, we must be careful about major changes that would affect an implementation base on the 23 July Candidate
13:48:12 <ArtB> AB: today in IRC, Marcos mentioned a "bug" in the CR that should be fixed
13:48:39 <drogersuk> it would be great if you could put that on the public mailing list
13:49:25 <ArtB> AB: we need to document all bugs; we need to notify impementors about bugs, etc.
13:49:50 <ArtB> MH: I found a bug; but not clear how to address it
13:50:44 <ArtB> AB: so the straman proposal when a bug in the CR is found, is to send an email to public-webapps with a subject like
13:50:59 <ArtB> ... [widgets] BUG ALERT for P+C spec: <description>
13:51:00 <marcin> it is not essentially a "bug", but a "feature' of the spec. We just need to clarify whether it operates on octets or characters
13:52:13 <ArtB> AB: want to make sure the Public knows when we have identified a bug
13:52:25 <ArtB> MH: yes, agree we need to document all bugs
13:53:38 <ArtB> AB: Marcos agreed earlier today to submit an email to the list that describes a bug he found
13:53:45 <ArtB> MC: we could publish an errata
13:54:13 <ArtB> AB: my understanding is the W3C's erratta process only applies to RECs
13:54:16 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
13:54:16 <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
13:54:22 <ArtB> ... perhaps Mike can verify
13:54:43 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
13:54:43 <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
13:54:44 <ArtB> MS: yes that's correct, errata are for RECs, not for WDs or CRs
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13:55:52 <Marcos> Test suite edition of the P&C: http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/Overview_TSE.html
13:56:00 <ArtB> MC: regarding testable assertions, I created a "Test Suite Edition" of the P+C spec
13:56:09 <ArtB> ... it removes some redundancy
13:56:21 <ArtB> ... and removes assertions that cannot be tested
13:56:38 <ArtB> ... it identifies all of the testable assertions
13:57:22 <ArtB> ... In "orange", you should be Testable Assertion and some Identifier
13:57:32 <ArtB> ... [ if using a "modern" browser ]
13:57:54 <ArtB> ... We will then use Dom's assertion extractor to create the assertion list
13:58:30 <ArtB> ... This work has resulted in identifying some redundancies that can removed from the spec as Editorial changes
13:58:41 <ArtB> ... This will give us a much better spec
13:58:58 <ArtB> AB: this is good work Marcos; I like this approach!
13:59:25 <ArtB> MC: I want to use this approach for the other widgets specs too
13:59:40 <ArtB> ... but will need to get agreement from the other Editors
13:59:42 <drogersuk> +1
14:00:18 <ArtB> MC: after I complete this task, I will create a list of changes 
14:00:37 <ArtB> AB: any other comments about P+C testing?
14:01:07 <ArtB> Topic: Widget URI spec
14:01:21 <ArtB> AB: Marcin submitted two emails for the URI spec ( http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/waf/widgets-uri/ ). 
14:01:34 <ArtB> AB: 1st is "Internationalization, widget IRI?" ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JulSep/0339.html ). There is also some followup on the public-uri mail list ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2009Jul/0017.html ). Any comments?
14:02:30 <ArtB> MH: I submitted some comments for the IRI draft
14:02:42 <ArtB> ... 3987 RFC
14:03:05 <ArtB> ... We should not expect a resolution from that group soon
14:04:00 <ArtB> ... Need to make sure URI to IRI mapping in P+C is clear
14:04:21 <ArtB> ... I think we can mandate a URI to IRI conversion
14:04:54 <ArtB> ... We should also talk to I18N Core WG
14:05:08 <Marcos> "For interoperability, manipulations of Zip relative paths MUST be performed on the string obtained by decoding the file name field using the appropriate encoding, and not on the bytes initially stored in the archive. For the sake of comparison and matching, it is RECOMMENDED that a user agent treat all Zip-relative paths as [UTF-8]."
14:05:17 <ArtB> MC: we have some text in the spec [ see above ]
14:05:43 <Marcos> "and not on the bytes initially stored in the archive" 
14:05:54 <marcin> ok, this is ok for zip-rel-path
14:06:06 <marcin> we have the issue with IRIs in config.xml
14:06:15 <ArtB> MC: this is an interop hurdle for widgets
14:06:34 <ArtB> MH: two issues: 1. zip-rel-path grammar change needed
14:06:56 <ArtB> MC: I think we should talk about this offline
14:07:03 <ArtB> ... not clear if it is a bug or not
14:08:07 <ArtB> [ some discussion between MC and MH ... ]
14:09:15 <ArtB> MH: need to consider the text editor the author uses to create the config.xml file
14:09:55 <ArtB> MC: I think there is an authoring requirement or guideline that needs to be added
14:10:01 <ArtB> ... but it won't affect the WUA
14:10:07 <ArtB> MH: I agree we can take this offline
14:10:28 <ArtB> AB: anything else on Widget URI spec for today?
14:10:51 <ArtB> AB: one concern I have is raising the level of visibility of this spec
14:11:54 <timeless_mbp> ScribeNick: timeless_mbp 
14:12:14 <timeless_mbp> Scribe: timeless
14:12:30 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
14:12:30 <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
14:12:42 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
14:12:43 <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
14:12:50 <timeless_mbp> AB: I think we're actually done with the widget uri discussion
14:12:53 <timeless_mbp> Topic: AOB
14:13:00 <drogersuk> Version 1.01 of BONDI is now available at http://bondi.omtp.org . It contains some minor edits and errata.
14:14:16 <timeless_mbp> AB: the next meeting is August 13
14:14:21 <timeless_mbp> AB: meeting adjourned
14:14:32 <timeless_mbp> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:14:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-wam-minutes.html timeless_mbp
14:15:23 <Zakim> -??P11
14:16:03 <Marcos> RRSAgent, make minutes public
14:16:03 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', Marcos.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:16:49 <timeless_mbp> RRSAgent, bye
14:16:49 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-wam-actions.rdf :
14:16:49 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow submit the publication request for WARP LCWD today [1]
14:16:49 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-wam-irc#T13-32-37