IRC log of ua on 2009-07-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:57:24 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:57:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc
16:57:51 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:57:58 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:58:04 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:58:04 [KFord]
zakim, microsoft is kford
16:58:04 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
16:58:40 [Zakim]
+AllanJ
16:58:55 [AllanJ]
Chair: Jim Allan
16:58:56 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
16:59:15 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
16:59:16 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ HTML 5 and UAAG review - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
16:59:18 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Review any new proposals sent to list.
16:59:41 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
16:59:41 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:59:42 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
16:59:45 [Zakim]
9. Tracking user agent status [from KFord]
16:59:46 [Zakim]
10. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from AllanJ]
16:59:47 [Zakim]
11. HTML 5 and UAAG review - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html [from AllanJ]
16:59:49 [Zakim]
12. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from AllanJ]
16:59:51 [KFord]
zakim agenda?
17:00:12 [Eileen]
Eileen has joined #ua
17:00:45 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:00:45 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:01:01 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 9
17:01:01 [Zakim]
agendum 9, Tracking user agent status, closed
17:01:02 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:01:03 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:01:51 [Zakim]
+??P4
17:01:54 [sharper]
zakim, ??P4 is sharper
17:01:54 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:02:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.435.aaaa
17:03:05 [sharper]
present: Allan_James (JA-AllanJ), Harper_Simon (SH-sharper), Ford_Kelly (KF-KFord)
17:03:07 [KFord]
zakim, who's here?
17:03:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, AllanJ, sharper, +1.617.435.aaaa
17:03:08 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Eileen, sharper, RRSAgent, KFord, AllanJ, Zakim, trackbot
17:03:25 [Henny]
Henny has joined #ua
17:03:25 [Eileen]
I'm Kim
17:03:29 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 8
17:03:29 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Review any new proposals sent to list." taken up [from KFord]
17:04:05 [sharper]
present+ Patch_Kim (KP-Eileen)
17:04:51 [sharper]
zakim, close item 1
17:04:51 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
17:04:52 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:04:53 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:04:55 [sharper]
zakim, close item 2
17:04:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2, 23 Jul Survey - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/, closed
17:04:57 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:04:59 [sharper]
zakim, close item 3
17:04:59 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:05:01 [Zakim]
agendum 3, editorís draft status - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/, closed
17:05:03 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:05:03 [sharper]
zakim, close item 4
17:05:04 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:05:05 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Face to face possible meeting dates, closed
17:05:06 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:05:06 [sharper]
zakim, close item 5
17:05:08 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:05:09 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Discussion of other work beyond just guideline document UAAG needs to complete, closed
17:05:10 [sharper]
zakim, close item 6
17:05:11 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:05:12 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:05:13 [Zakim]
agendum 6, Open issues and actions, closed
17:05:14 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:05:15 [sharper]
zakim, close item 7
17:05:16 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:05:18 [Zakim]
agendum 7, HTML 5 and UAAG, closed
17:05:20 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:05:22 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:05:23 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 8
17:05:24 [Zakim]
+??P6
17:05:26 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Review any new proposals sent to list." taken up [from KFord]
17:05:43 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:05:53 [sharper]
zakim, ??P6 is Henny
17:05:53 [Zakim]
+Henny; got it
17:06:04 [sharper]
present+ Swan_Henny (HS-Henny)
17:06:24 [sharper]
present+ Lowney_Greg (GL-Greg)
17:06:36 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
17:06:36 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
17:06:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aabb
17:07:14 [sharper]
regrets: Poehlman_David (DP), Rosmaita_Gregory (GR), Spellman_Jeanne (JS-jeanne)
17:07:38 [sharper]
zakim, +1.425.895.aabb is Greg
17:07:38 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
17:07:58 [sharper]
UAWG: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/
17:08:37 [sharper]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0022.html
17:08:50 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:08:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:09:08 [sharper]
zakim, save agenda
17:09:14 [Zakim]
ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-agenda.rdf
17:09:15 [sharper]
zakim, agenda?
17:09:16 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:09:17 [Zakim]
8. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:09:18 [Zakim]
10. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from AllanJ]
17:09:19 [Zakim]
11. HTML 5 and UAAG review - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html [from AllanJ]
17:09:21 [Zakim]
12. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from AllanJ]
17:09:34 [sharper]
zakim, close item 8
17:09:34 [Zakim]
agendum 8, Review any new proposals sent to list., closed
17:09:35 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:37 [Zakim]
10. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from AllanJ]
17:09:48 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
17:09:49 [sharper]
zakim, close item 10
17:09:50 [Zakim]
agendum 10, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
17:09:51 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:52 [Zakim]
11. HTML 5 and UAAG review - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html [from AllanJ]
17:10:55 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 12
17:10:55 [Zakim]
agendum 12. "Review any new proposals sent to list." taken up [from AllanJ]
17:12:28 [sharper]
present+ Hakkinen_Mark (MH-mth)
17:12:35 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:12:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:12:36 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
17:13:11 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:13:28 [sharper]
Proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html
17:14:14 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
17:14:18 [sharper]
zakim, +[IPcaller] mth
17:14:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+[IPcaller] mth', sharper
17:14:40 [sharper]
zakim, [IPcaller] is mth
17:14:40 [Zakim]
+mth; got it
17:16:11 [sharper]
MH, HS, KP: to explain the 4.7 proposal
17:16:35 [AllanJ]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html
17:17:15 [sharper]
MH: 4.7 to encompass direct nav and structured nav, re last weeks discussion of KP proposal
17:17:26 [sharper]
Guideline 4.7 Provide structured and direct navigation
17:17:33 [sharper]
4.7.1 Structured Navigation: Forward and backward sequential navigation over important (structural and operable) elements in rendered content is provided. (Level A)
17:17:41 [sharper]
4.7.2 Direct navigation: direct movement to important (structural and operable) elements in rendered content is provided. (Level A).
17:17:48 [sharper]
4.7.3 Direct activation: direct movement to and activation of any operable elements in rendered content is provided. (Level AA)
17:18:27 [sharper]
4.7.4 Configure Set of Important Elements: The user has the option to configure the set of important elements for structured navigation, including by element type (e.g., headers, list items, images). (Level AAA) @@Editor's note: Review the definition of "important elements" @@
17:18:44 [sharper]
4.7.5 Direct navigation and activation keystrokes are discoverable both programmatically and via perceivable labels. (Level A)
17:19:09 [sharper]
Background and Discussion at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html
17:20:43 [sharper]
JA: How does this lay over on top of 4.1 is there any duplication?
17:21:23 [sharper]
MH: 4.1.7 - has some relationship to this - complimentary.
17:21:27 [KFord]
q+
17:22:03 [sharper]
GL: wording etc questions
17:22:27 [sharper]
JA: Lets stop at 15 to the hour so we can get into the HTML5
17:22:35 [sharper]
ack KFord
17:23:34 [sharper]
KF: 4.7.3, seems like it also contains the first part of 4.7.2 - both say direct navigation, 4.7.3 with activation.
17:24:16 [sharper]
MH: distinction is directly nav to an active element - 4.7.3 specifically activation so nav and activate are combined in 1 key press.
17:24:47 [sharper]
KF: get the concept, do we need this twice, is it confusing - question for the group
17:26:12 [sharper]
GL: looks like 4.7.3 as written doesn't add anything, because direct commands include a key seq. a UA can comply - no different than defining say ctrl+a and Enter.
17:27:12 [sharper]
MH: difference is that numbers maybe a multi key sequence that would directly activate the element.
17:27:29 [sharper]
GL: don't disagree, but don't think this brings anything.
17:27:44 [sharper]
KP: I think this would work...
17:28:27 [sharper]
GL: nowhere do we already prohibit that kind of thing. dfn. of keyboard commands - maybe overlooks delay between strokes.
17:29:42 [sharper]
KP: from a keyboard point of view fewer are better, problem when you can't put strokes together.
17:29:46 [sharper]
JA: Example?
17:31:07 [Greg]
I suggest we make sure the definition of keyboard command is explicit that there can be no enforced wait in the middle of any sequence, and no having to read.
17:31:16 [sharper]
KP: Firefox, type number and hit enter (or not - config). If there is a wait for a keystroke sequence to resolve (say dialogue) then how do you know if there are more strokes coming to activate something else?
17:32:28 [sharper]
GL: address this by making sure dfn in glossary includes wording that there can be no enforced wait in the middle.
17:34:42 [sharper]
GL: one shouldn't need to get feedback in the middle of the stroke sequence - ie can do alt+F,O, so no wait is required but the sequence type ahead is enacted
17:36:14 [Greg]
If the platform doesn't provide typeahead, I would not expect the UA to add it. (If you want an accessible UA, run one on an accessible OS.)
17:36:39 [sharper]
JA: 4.1.4 is separate activation from action
17:36:41 [Greg]
But if the platform supports typeahead, the UA should support it.
17:37:49 [sharper]
GL: 4.7.3, not required, but included in the best practices
17:39:56 [Greg]
Proposal to remove 4.7.3 as separate SC, instead incorporate it into the best practices as a recommendation that the UA allow the user to avoid having to enter an extra keystroke to activate the element they are navigating to.
17:40:43 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:40:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:40:58 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-UAAG20-20090723/#def-configure
17:42:29 [Greg]
We need to clarify, does "the user has an option to" also require that the use has the option not to?
17:44:28 [Greg]
For example, if we say "the user has the option to be able to navigate via the keyboard", we wouldn't want that to imply that the user MUST have an option to disable keyboard navigation.
17:46:18 [sharper]
ISSUE: Review "the user has the option to be able to navigate via the keyboard"
17:46:18 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-38 - Review "the user has the option to be able to navigate via the keyboard" ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/38/edit .
17:46:37 [Greg]
In 4.7.1, 1."over" - sounds like skipping over, so change to "through" or "between"
17:47:03 [sharper]
GL: 4.7.1 use of word 'over'; to GL means skip
17:47:09 [sharper]
KP switch over to 'to'
17:47:23 [Zakim]
- +1.617.435.aaaa
17:47:50 [sharper]
RESOLVED: switch over to 'to'
17:48:04 [Greg]
4.7 use of "important" makes it not subjective rather than objectively measurable.
17:48:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.435.aacc
17:50:22 [sharper]
ISSUE: need to work on the definition of 'important' so it can be used as an objective measure.
17:50:22 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-39 - Need to work on the definition of 'important' so it can be used as an objective measure. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/39/edit .
17:51:21 [Greg]
Is there any example where it's OK for the UA to not provide keyboard navigation to an enabled element?
17:51:46 [Greg]
3."structural and" can you provide examples where you want to navigate to structural elements that aren't interactive? Would it be something like using tab to navigate to a group of radio buttons, and the focus is put on whichever radio button in that group last had the focus.
17:52:03 [Greg]
4."operable" - we already have the terms "enabled" and "interactive"
17:52:03 [sharper]
JA: we need to take this to the list and thrash it out some more.
17:52:15 [sharper]
zakim, close item 12
17:52:15 [Zakim]
agendum 12, Review any new proposals sent to list., closed
17:52:16 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:52:17 [Zakim]
11. HTML 5 and UAAG review - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html [from AllanJ]
17:54:08 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 11
17:54:08 [Zakim]
agendum 11. "HTML 5 and UAAG review - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:56:07 [AllanJ]
SH: issues with Canvas and Video and small
17:57:06 [sharper]
MH: issues with Canvas and its use for UIs
18:01:15 [KFord]
q+
18:01:33 [AllanJ]
MH: what is difference between UA and web-app functioning as a runtime desktop app
18:01:43 [AllanJ]
...how is user to know?
18:01:48 [sharper]
ack KFord
18:02:10 [Eileen]
(Kim) q+
18:02:25 [AllanJ]
SH: questions about who is responsible for making an application accessible
18:03:05 [sharper]
KF: 508 doesn't mean that it has to be accessible - it just has to state this - and the federal purchasing office has to decide.
18:03:17 [sharper]
KF: 508 in revision
18:04:10 [sharper]
JA: Problems around provision of bespoke accessibility apis.
18:04:24 [sharper]
KF: all manner of HTML5 concerns.
18:05:03 [sharper]
KF: accessibility still expects and is tuned toward web pages - more to web applications - UI model is very different.
18:05:20 [sharper]
KF: so much more that must happen, no clearly defined.
18:05:34 [sharper]
s/no/not
18:06:51 [sharper]
JA: 508 distinction between web and applications is now removed, now mashed together.
18:08:35 [sharper]
ack Eileen
18:10:32 [AllanJ]
DHTML Style Guide Working Group http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide
18:11:13 [KFord]
MSDN keyboard article on keyboard design. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms971323.aspx
18:11:15 [mth]
q+
18:11:35 [Greg]
Microsoft Windows 95 Keyboard Guide - http://tinyurl.com/nsbo7o
18:11:52 [sharper]
ack mth
18:13:52 [AllanJ]
KP: many inconsistencies with common practice keystrokes in web UI
18:14:30 [AllanJ]
MH: authors creating 'new' widgets and writing unique keyboard behavior/metaphor
18:14:44 [AllanJ]
MH: genie is out of bottle
18:15:55 [sharper]
KF: tree example, expect widget semantics - but not really the case in web apps.
18:16:29 [sharper]
KF: tool kits is where the keyboard access needs to be added.
18:18:41 [sharper]
JA: extensibility model in HTML5 is adhoc - adhoc solutions will bubble up with no real spec.
18:19:18 [sharper]
JA: We need to generate issues with HTML5 for UAs
18:22:29 [mth]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2009Jul/
18:22:36 [sharper]
action: AllanJ to 'interface with PF to find out what they are doing HTML5 wise so we don't duplicate work.'
18:22:36 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - AllanJ
18:23:03 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes\
18:23:03 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minutes\', sharper. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:23:08 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:23:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:23:10 [KFord]
MSDN keyboard article on keyboard design. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms971323.aspxI think you can see the archives of PF mail for members at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/feed.rss
18:24:22 [AllanJ]
action: JA to review html5 for UA behavior
18:24:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-213 - Review html5 for UA behavior [on Jim Allan - due 2009-08-06].
18:26:36 [AllanJ]
Action: HS to review forms in HTML5
18:26:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-214 - Review forms in HTML5 [on Henny Swan - due 2009-08-06].
18:27:39 [AllanJ]
Action: KF to review user interaction in HTML5
18:27:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-215 - Review user interaction in HTML5 [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-08-06].
18:28:13 [AllanJ]
Action: MH to review video, audio, image, media in HTML5
18:28:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-216 - Review video, audio, image, media in HTML5 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-08-06].
18:28:47 [sharper]
action sharper Section 3 structure
18:28:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-217 - Section 3 structure [on Simon Harper - due 2009-08-06].
18:30:16 [AllanJ]
action: KP to review user interaction for keyboard in HTML 5
18:30:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-218 - Review user interaction for keyboard in HTML 5 [on Kimberly Patch - due 2009-08-06].
18:31:03 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:31:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:31:35 [Zakim]
-kford
18:31:39 [Zakim]
-Henny
18:31:40 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:31:40 [Zakim]
- +1.617.435.aacc
18:31:42 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:31:48 [Zakim]
-mth
18:31:54 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:31:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:31:58 [Zakim]
-AllanJ
18:32:00 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:32:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were kford, AllanJ, sharper, +1.617.435.aaaa, Henny, Greg, Mark_Hakkinen, mth, +1.617.435.aacc
18:34:12 [sharper]
Action: SH to review Section 3 structure of HTML5
18:34:12 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
18:34:12 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
18:34:31 [sharper]
Action: sharper to review Section 3 structure of HTML5
18:34:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-219 - Review Section 3 structure of HTML5 [on Simon Harper - due 2009-08-06].
18:34:43 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:34:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:35:13 [sharper]
zakim, please part
18:35:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:35:18 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:35:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:35:41 [sharper]
rrsagent, please part
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-actions.rdf :
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AllanJ to 'interface with PF to find out what they are doing HTML5 wise so we don't duplicate work.' [1]
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc#T18-22-36
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to review html5 for UA behavior [2]
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc#T18-24-22
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: HS to review forms in HTML5 [3]
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc#T18-26-36
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to review user interaction in HTML5 [4]
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc#T18-27-39
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MH to review video, audio, image, media in HTML5 [5]
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc#T18-28-13
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KP to review user interaction for keyboard in HTML 5 [6]
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc#T18-30-16
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SH to review Section 3 structure of HTML5 [7]
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc#T18-34-12
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sharper to review Section 3 structure of HTML5 [8]
18:35:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc#T18-34-31