IRC log of core on 2009-07-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:46:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #core
18:46:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-irc
18:46:12 [aphillip]
zakim, this will be I18N
18:46:12 [Zakim]
ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
18:46:22 [aphillip]
RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
18:46:33 [aphillip]
Meeting: Internationalization Teleconference
18:47:03 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
18:47:06 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
18:47:11 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
18:47:35 [aphillip]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Jul/0029.html
18:47:41 [aphillip]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:47:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip
18:51:57 [andrewc]
andrewc has joined #core
18:59:22 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM has now started
18:59:29 [Zakim]
+??P6
19:00:33 [r12a]
r12a has joined #core
19:01:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.790.aaaa
19:01:52 [aphillip]
zakim, ??P6 is andrewc
19:01:52 [Zakim]
+andrewc; got it
19:02:25 [aphillip]
Regrets: DanC, Felix
19:02:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip
19:02:45 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard-home
19:02:45 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
19:02:47 [Zakim]
+Richard
19:03:57 [r12a]
zakim, who's here ?
19:03:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see andrewc, aphillip, Richard
19:03:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see r12a, andrewc, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip
19:07:19 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
19:07:38 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
19:07:51 [aphillip]
Addison: supply text to WG of a suitable selectors normalization health warning
19:08:06 [aphillip]
Richard: respond on our behalf to CSS on ruby issue
19:08:15 [aphillip]
not yet
19:08:21 [aphillip]
addison: set up document edit transition with dan for ws-i18n
19:08:25 [aphillip]
not yet
19:08:32 [aphillip]
richard: look at framework for i18n guidelines and suggest actions to take on document
19:08:46 [aphillip]
started
19:08:56 [aphillip]
obsoleted on beta page
19:09:09 [aphillip]
not rewritten status and republished
19:09:19 [r12a]
http://beta.w3.org/standards/techs/i18n
19:10:32 [aphillip]
richard: publish i18n-guide-frameword as (retired, obsolete) WD
19:10:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aabb
19:12:35 [aphillip]
Topic: auto-rtl/auto-ltr for markup?
19:12:55 [aphillip]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Jul/0019.html
19:13:01 [aphillip]
(and thread)
19:13:17 [aphillip]
richard: changing base direction based on first character (not necessarily the alignment)
19:13:31 [aphillip]
mark: basic issue is that if I type (say) Hebrew in a LTR context
19:13:52 [aphillip]
... my results will be unitelligible because typing order is "funny"
19:14:43 [aphillip]
... users are sometimes confused because UBA in ltr context is not convenient
19:15:02 [aphillip]
... and vice versa (ltr input in rtl contexts)
19:15:36 [aphillip]
... propsal is to have mechanism that adapts based on content
19:15:41 [aphillip]
... mainly on user content
19:16:16 [aphillip]
... link in email was to YouTube, where google uses Javascript to alter dir
19:16:40 [aphillip]
richard: issue arises when you have bidi text with weak chars (such as punct) or unidirectional text with punctuation at edges
19:16:42 [aphillip]
?
19:17:03 [aphillip]
mark: happens when you have some text that matches page direction
19:17:33 [aphillip]
richard: wouldn't solve latter problem
19:17:50 [aphillip]
... still have "strange things" happening
19:17:57 [aphillip]
... in bidi, things still "jump around"
19:18:19 [aphillip]
mark: if I type hebrew1-dash-hebrew2
19:18:25 [aphillip]
if ltr, you get jumping
19:18:47 [aphillip]
richard: but if you have latin and hebrew
19:20:52 [aphillip]
addison: maybe provide ways to contorl override better
19:23:55 [aphillip]
(addison and mark discuss whether getting browser vendors to implement directinoal controls)
19:24:15 [aphillip]
richard: my inclination is that sounds good for like form input
19:24:25 [aphillip]
... but looks like something for implementation
19:24:31 [aphillip]
... might be useful if writing a table
19:24:43 [aphillip]
... but not want this for stuff like list items
19:24:50 [aphillip]
... or <h3> or <p> etc.
19:25:07 [aphillip]
... if we did use markup, rather than auto-ltr/auto-rtl
19:25:23 [aphillip]
... just have 'auto' and that would would be allow content to determine
19:25:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip
19:26:31 [aphillip]
mark: principal benefit for input
19:26:37 [aphillip]
richard: should w3c specificy?
19:26:45 [aphillip]
... or default for implementations?
19:26:50 [aphillip]
andrew: context when processing form?
19:27:04 [aphillip]
... might lose context for directionality
19:27:17 [aphillip]
... input some info into form with auto field
19:27:20 [aphillip]
.. so display right
19:27:31 [aphillip]
... based on content
19:27:37 [aphillip]
... but then the content is redisplayed badly
19:31:13 [aphillip]
(conversation)
19:31:22 [aphillip]
richard: perhaps on <input> or <form>
19:37:26 [aphillip]
richard: provide some evidence of user requirement, not just annecdotal
19:37:42 [aphillip]
mark: was originated by israeli team
19:38:03 [aphillip]
mark: like addison's popup control suggestion
19:38:12 [aphillip]
...will pass on for comment
19:38:37 [Zakim]
-MarkD
19:38:40 [aphillip]
(exuent mark and markus)
19:38:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip
19:40:49 [r12a]
@ i18n
19:41:19 [aphillip]
Topic: Techniques or Best Practices
19:41:45 [aphillip]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Jul/0018.html
19:42:26 [aphillip]
richard: so (fanfare)... might end up be a w3 discussion too
19:42:34 [aphillip]
... best practices is a catchy title
19:42:42 [aphillip]
... but are these really best practices
19:42:59 [aphillip]
... the bidi might be close to them
19:43:07 [aphillip]
... but language tagging is more like technique stuff
19:43:15 [aphillip]
... and want to make changes to bidi
19:43:31 [aphillip]
... for stuff like "if you find that say scroll bar moves then workaround is X"
19:43:43 [aphillip]
... and that's more technique
19:44:07 [aphillip]
(meant to mention that title and tooltip might want 'auto dir detect')
19:44:14 [aphillip]
(when discussing with Mark, etc.)
19:44:39 [aphillip]
(might be useful there....... but I digress)
19:45:01 [aphillip]
... so anyway, lots of "techniquey" stuff
19:45:57 [aphillip]
... could call "tips" or "guidelines"...
19:46:04 [aphillip]
...so: call it "Techniques" ?
19:46:23 [aphillip]
... and then search/replace in document
19:46:27 [aphillip]
andrew: yeah
19:46:30 [aphillip]
addison: yeah
19:50:07 [aphillip]
richard: will also introduce a few more techniques
19:50:20 [aphillip]
... also matty had some feedback
19:50:33 [aphillip]
... found way of getting current browser a bit problematic
19:50:51 [aphillip]
... thinking of putting back stuff like IE and Opera switching scroll bar sides
19:50:57 [aphillip]
... in a mroe generic way
19:51:08 [aphillip]
... toying with solutions to that
19:52:01 [aphillip]
richard: one thing that confused was link took to top of page unless there was something to be said
19:52:08 [aphillip]
... and only one time is that the case
19:55:00 [aphillip]
Topic: Working with Time Zones
19:55:08 [aphillip]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Jul/0017.html
19:55:39 [aphillip]
richard: not totally clear on target of document
19:55:44 [aphillip]
... who is the audience
19:56:04 [aphillip]
... focused on datastructures
19:56:31 [aphillip]
addison: current doc focused on xmlschema
19:56:41 [aphillip]
richard: how far are we opening topic up?
19:57:32 [aphillip]
richard: brief history should be first
19:57:38 [aphillip]
... then what is a time zone
19:57:50 [aphillip]
... and only then data structures, etc.
19:59:00 [aphillip]
richard: when talking about utc offsets, distance from equator isn't strictly determiner
19:59:11 [aphillip]
... some examples in original text were quite useful
19:59:16 [aphillip]
... restore those?
20:00:06 [aphillip]
richard: field-based time... the "field-based resprentation of computer time is more complicated" instead of just "the human based...."
20:00:46 [aphillip]
richard: might need a section on "oh and by the way there is the way we write"
20:00:56 [aphillip]
addison: as with my original document (but omitted here)
20:01:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:01:24 [aphillip]
richard: wall time is never explained
20:01:38 [aphillip]
... no one understands unless we define
20:01:46 [aphillip]
... was written into the document
20:02:10 [aphillip]
richard: if youR application (in past-and-future events)
20:02:15 [aphillip]
richard: needs more examples
20:02:54 [aphillip]
richard: guidelines for ambiguous forms, and calendars, and......
20:03:00 [aphillip]
... lots of things could be done
20:03:06 [aphillip]
... need to scope well
20:03:13 [aphillip]
... looking forward to do/dont's
20:03:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:04:17 [aphillip]
richard: say "incremental time" in section on "field based"
20:04:26 [aphillip]
... it's a true statement about both
20:06:32 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
20:06:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:07:36 [Zakim]
-aphillip
20:07:38 [Zakim]
-andrewc
20:07:46 [Zakim]
-Richard
20:07:48 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM has ended
20:07:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.408.790.aaaa, aphillip, andrewc, Richard, +1.650.253.aabb, MarkD
20:08:03 [r12a]
r12a has left #core
20:08:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:08:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #core