18:46:06 RRSAgent has joined #core 18:46:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-irc 18:46:12 zakim, this will be I18N 18:46:12 ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 18:46:22 RRSAgent, set logs world-visible 18:46:33 Meeting: Internationalization Teleconference 18:47:03 Chair: Addison Phillips 18:47:06 Scribe: Addison Phillips 18:47:11 ScribeNick: aphillip 18:47:35 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Jul/0029.html 18:47:41 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:47:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip 18:51:57 andrewc has joined #core 18:59:22 I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM has now started 18:59:29 +??P6 19:00:33 r12a has joined #core 19:01:23 + +1.408.790.aaaa 19:01:52 zakim, ??P6 is andrewc 19:01:52 +andrewc; got it 19:02:25 Regrets: DanC, Felix 19:02:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip 19:02:45 zakim, dial richard-home 19:02:45 ok, r12a; the call is being made 19:02:47 +Richard 19:03:57 zakim, who's here ? 19:03:57 On the phone I see andrewc, aphillip, Richard 19:03:58 On IRC I see r12a, andrewc, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip 19:07:19 Topic: Agenda 19:07:38 Topic: Action Items 19:07:51 Addison: supply text to WG of a suitable selectors normalization health warning 19:08:06 Richard: respond on our behalf to CSS on ruby issue 19:08:15 not yet 19:08:21 addison: set up document edit transition with dan for ws-i18n 19:08:25 not yet 19:08:32 richard: look at framework for i18n guidelines and suggest actions to take on document 19:08:46 started 19:08:56 obsoleted on beta page 19:09:09 not rewritten status and republished 19:09:19 http://beta.w3.org/standards/techs/i18n 19:10:32 richard: publish i18n-guide-frameword as (retired, obsolete) WD 19:10:39 + +1.650.253.aabb 19:12:35 Topic: auto-rtl/auto-ltr for markup? 19:12:55 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Jul/0019.html 19:13:01 (and thread) 19:13:17 richard: changing base direction based on first character (not necessarily the alignment) 19:13:31 mark: basic issue is that if I type (say) Hebrew in a LTR context 19:13:52 ... my results will be unitelligible because typing order is "funny" 19:14:43 ... users are sometimes confused because UBA in ltr context is not convenient 19:15:02 ... and vice versa (ltr input in rtl contexts) 19:15:36 ... propsal is to have mechanism that adapts based on content 19:15:41 ... mainly on user content 19:16:16 ... link in email was to YouTube, where google uses Javascript to alter dir 19:16:40 richard: issue arises when you have bidi text with weak chars (such as punct) or unidirectional text with punctuation at edges 19:16:42 ? 19:17:03 mark: happens when you have some text that matches page direction 19:17:33 richard: wouldn't solve latter problem 19:17:50 ... still have "strange things" happening 19:17:57 ... in bidi, things still "jump around" 19:18:19 mark: if I type hebrew1-dash-hebrew2 19:18:25 if ltr, you get jumping 19:18:47 richard: but if you have latin and hebrew 19:20:52 addison: maybe provide ways to contorl override better 19:23:55 (addison and mark discuss whether getting browser vendors to implement directinoal controls) 19:24:15 richard: my inclination is that sounds good for like form input 19:24:25 ... but looks like something for implementation 19:24:31 ... might be useful if writing a table 19:24:43 ... but not want this for stuff like list items 19:24:50 ... or

or

etc. 19:25:07 ... if we did use markup, rather than auto-ltr/auto-rtl 19:25:23 ... just have 'auto' and that would would be allow content to determine 19:25:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip 19:26:31 mark: principal benefit for input 19:26:37 richard: should w3c specificy? 19:26:45 ... or default for implementations? 19:26:50 andrew: context when processing form? 19:27:04 ... might lose context for directionality 19:27:17 ... input some info into form with auto field 19:27:20 .. so display right 19:27:31 ... based on content 19:27:37 ... but then the content is redisplayed badly 19:31:13 (conversation) 19:31:22 richard: perhaps on or

19:37:26 richard: provide some evidence of user requirement, not just annecdotal 19:37:42 mark: was originated by israeli team 19:38:03 mark: like addison's popup control suggestion 19:38:12 ...will pass on for comment 19:38:37 -MarkD 19:38:40 (exuent mark and markus) 19:38:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip 19:40:49 @ i18n 19:41:19 Topic: Techniques or Best Practices 19:41:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Jul/0018.html 19:42:26 richard: so (fanfare)... might end up be a w3 discussion too 19:42:34 ... best practices is a catchy title 19:42:42 ... but are these really best practices 19:42:59 ... the bidi might be close to them 19:43:07 ... but language tagging is more like technique stuff 19:43:15 ... and want to make changes to bidi 19:43:31 ... for stuff like "if you find that say scroll bar moves then workaround is X" 19:43:43 ... and that's more technique 19:44:07 (meant to mention that title and tooltip might want 'auto dir detect') 19:44:14 (when discussing with Mark, etc.) 19:44:39 (might be useful there....... but I digress) 19:45:01 ... so anyway, lots of "techniquey" stuff 19:45:57 ... could call "tips" or "guidelines"... 19:46:04 ...so: call it "Techniques" ? 19:46:23 ... and then search/replace in document 19:46:27 andrew: yeah 19:46:30 addison: yeah 19:50:07 richard: will also introduce a few more techniques 19:50:20 ... also matty had some feedback 19:50:33 ... found way of getting current browser a bit problematic 19:50:51 ... thinking of putting back stuff like IE and Opera switching scroll bar sides 19:50:57 ... in a mroe generic way 19:51:08 ... toying with solutions to that 19:52:01 richard: one thing that confused was link took to top of page unless there was something to be said 19:52:08 ... and only one time is that the case 19:55:00 Topic: Working with Time Zones 19:55:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Jul/0017.html 19:55:39 richard: not totally clear on target of document 19:55:44 ... who is the audience 19:56:04 ... focused on datastructures 19:56:31 addison: current doc focused on xmlschema 19:56:41 richard: how far are we opening topic up? 19:57:32 richard: brief history should be first 19:57:38 ... then what is a time zone 19:57:50 ... and only then data structures, etc. 19:59:00 richard: when talking about utc offsets, distance from equator isn't strictly determiner 19:59:11 ... some examples in original text were quite useful 19:59:16 ... restore those? 20:00:06 richard: field-based time... the "field-based resprentation of computer time is more complicated" instead of just "the human based...." 20:00:46 richard: might need a section on "oh and by the way there is the way we write" 20:00:56 addison: as with my original document (but omitted here) 20:01:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip 20:01:24 richard: wall time is never explained 20:01:38 ... no one understands unless we define 20:01:46 ... was written into the document 20:02:10 richard: if youR application (in past-and-future events) 20:02:15 richard: needs more examples 20:02:54 richard: guidelines for ambiguous forms, and calendars, and...... 20:03:00 ... lots of things could be done 20:03:06 ... need to scope well 20:03:13 ... looking forward to do/dont's 20:03:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip 20:04:17 richard: say "incremental time" in section on "field based" 20:04:26 ... it's a true statement about both 20:06:32 Topic: AOB? 20:06:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip 20:07:36 -aphillip 20:07:38 -andrewc 20:07:46 -Richard 20:07:48 I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM has ended 20:07:49 Attendees were +1.408.790.aaaa, aphillip, andrewc, Richard, +1.650.253.aabb, MarkD 20:08:03 r12a has left #core 20:08:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-core-minutes.html aphillip 20:08:28 Zakim has left #core