15:37:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:37:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-CSS-irc
15:55:17 <oyvinds> oyvinds has joined #css
15:55:37 <glazou> tjena oyvinds 
15:56:10 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:56:10 <Zakim> ok, glazou, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
15:56:21 <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aabb
15:56:45 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
15:56:53 <glazou> Zakim, +aabb is dsinger_ 
15:56:53 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '+aabb'
15:57:05 <glazou> Zakim, aabb  is dsinger_ 
15:57:05 <Zakim> +dsinger_; got it
15:57:09 <dsinger_> Zakim, mute me
15:57:09 <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
15:58:45 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
15:58:49 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
15:58:49 <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
15:59:22 <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see +95089aaaa, dsinger_ (muted), [Mozilla]
15:59:23 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
15:59:39 <dbaron> Zakim, aaaa is Daniel_Glazman
15:59:39 <Zakim> +Daniel_Glazman; got it
16:00:06 <dbaron> That way we wont disconnect glazou when we're puzzled by the number.
16:00:13 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
16:00:19 <glazou> hehe :)
16:00:44 <dsinger_> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Daniel_Glazman, dsinger_ (muted), [Mozilla]
16:00:45 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:00:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see sgalineau, dsinger_, oyvinds, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, Lachy, karl, myakura, MikeSmith^away, shepazu, arronei, dsinger, anne2, krijnh, plinss_, Hixie,
16:00:49 <Zakim> ... jdaggett, fantasai, trackbot, Bert, plinss
16:01:05 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:01:05 <hyatt> hyatt has joined #css
16:01:16 <sgalineau> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:01:16 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:01:21 <Zakim> + +49.238.aacc
16:01:34 <dbaron> Zakim, aacc is Bert
16:01:40 <Zakim> +??P32
16:01:44 <Zakim> +Bert; got it
16:02:06 <dbaron> Zakim, ??P32 is fantasai
16:02:23 <hyatt> i joined
16:02:24 <Zakim> + +1.281.419.aadd
16:02:26 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaee
16:02:28 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:02:28 <hyatt> that is me
16:02:34 <hyatt> the 281 one
16:02:38 <dbaron> Zakim, aadd is hyatt
16:02:38 <plinss> zakim +1.858.216 is me
16:02:42 <dbaron> Zakim, aaee is plinss
16:02:59 <dbaron> Zakim is pretty slow today
16:03:04 <Zakim> +hyatt; got it
16:03:08 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
16:03:09 <glazou> for those interested in linguistic maps of the whole world, I strongly recommend http://www.muturzikin.com/countries.htm
16:04:26 <Bert> "Linguistic map of antarctica" and it isn't even empty...
16:04:27 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:04:49 <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Daniel_Glazman, dsinger_ (muted), [Mozilla], [Microsoft], Bert, fantasai, hyatt, plinss, SteveZ
16:04:51 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:04:51 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:05:09 <annevk> annevk has joined #css
16:05:24 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:05:39 <glazou> ScribeNick: szilles 
16:05:58 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0120.html
16:06:11 <annevk> Zakim, passcode?
16:06:14 <fantasai> STYLE
16:06:22 <dbaron> 78953
16:06:28 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
16:06:35 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0114.html 
16:06:38 <szilles> Item: Background-break and border-break
16:07:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:07:10 <annevk> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:07:10 <Zakim> +annevk; got it
16:07:13 <glazou> hi anne2 
16:07:14 <glazou> er
16:07:20 <annevk> hi
16:07:34 <szilles> DH: I was attempting to simplify the two properites because people will often want the same values on both properties and not all the combinations of the independent properties make sense
16:07:56 <szilles> EE: I think a combination does make sense, but I am not sure what the values should be
16:08:16 <szilles> EE: what behaviors should we be trying to acheive
16:08:35 <szilles> EE: for border break we might want more sophistication in the styling
16:08:54 <szilles> EE: e.g. "hidden" adds padding
16:08:56 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:09:10 <szilles> DH: I might want to see a different background in each box
16:09:17 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:10:02 <szilles> DH: Is this the right way to do the "bounding box" because some of the current renderings are awkward
16:10:37 <szilles> DH: could we drop certain features from the combined property knowing that we might do things better in a future version
16:11:26 <szilles> Most oftern the authors will just be specifying background-break
16:12:24 <Bert> DBaron: author...
16:12:25 <dbaron> DB: Most of the time authors won't be using both borders and backgrounds.
16:12:29 <szilles> s /oftern/often/
16:13:22 <szilles> DG: there is also the issue of authors being able to reduce complexity and still allow authors to get the features they want
16:13:54 <szilles> DB: having just one property does not necessarily help with readability in the most common case
16:14:48 <szilles> DH: a simplification is that the author would say the same thing whether they were only doing borders, only doing background or both together
16:15:36 <glazou> :)
16:15:48 <szilles> BB: concern about the name
16:15:57 <glazou> even glazou has initials can you believe it ?-)
16:16:20 <szilles> BB: i like having a single property describing how to handle boxes near (page) breaks
16:17:32 <szilles> DH: by using a new mechanism, like background attachment fixed, you can get backgrounds on the page when there are multiple columns on the page
16:17:47 <szilles> DH: for otherwise, you can only affect the column boxes
16:18:20 <szilles> Action: EE: Draft a proposed combindation of the properties
16:18:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-167 - Draft a proposed combindation of the properties [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-08-05].
16:18:40 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0014.html 
16:18:49 <szilles> Mean and Max functions in CSS3
16:19:06 <dbaron> s/Mean/Min/
16:19:09 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0015.html
16:19:20 <szilles> DB: there is a message that says these should be added inside Calc; I support that addition
16:19:36 <annevk> EE: would calc() be required to do this?
16:19:57 <fantasai> I don't want to write width: calc(min(80ch, 100vw));
16:20:00 <szilles> EE: Allowing it in calc makes sense, but do we need to require it in calc
16:20:38 <Bert> I think EE asks if it is always calc(min(A,B)) or is min(A,B) on its own also fine?
16:20:45 <annevk> calc(min(80em-2px,100vw)) ?
16:20:51 <szilles> DH: do you mean that you could just say min width instead of requiring calc(min(width))
16:21:25 <dbaron> I'm ok with allowing it at toplevel, but then there's the question of whether to allow or disallow min(20em-2px, 19em)
16:21:26 <szilles> DH: it might be simpler to just allow usage in calc right now
16:21:51 <szilles> DH: if we specify it and not allow it inside calc people would object
16:22:18 <szilles> BB: But this changes the model of calc, changing calcs output from a vector to a tree
16:22:26 <fantasai> min(calc(20em-2px), 19em);
16:22:27 <annevk> calc(min(80em - max(12em+16px,12.5em),100vw))
16:22:48 <dbaron> I'd actually probably be happy with making min() just be syntactic sugar for calc(min()), etc.
16:23:08 <szilles> EE: How about allowing calc inside min, but not min inside calc; that would solve most of the use cases people seem to want
16:23:13 <annevk> +1 to dbaron
16:23:35 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:23:51 <Zakim> -dsinger_
16:23:55 <dsinger> zakim [apple] has dsinger
16:24:16 <sgalineau> +1
16:24:46 <szilles> DB: what I meant by my syntactic sugar suggestion is that you could use other calc expressions inside the min()
16:25:06 <dbaron> min(20em-2px, 19em)
16:25:07 <dbaron> rather than
16:25:12 <dbaron> min(calc(20em-2px), 19em)
16:25:23 <glazou> alc(min(80em - max(12em+16px,12.5em),100vw))
16:25:29 <sgalineau> dbaron, are we saying we like the latter or the former ?
16:25:52 <annevk> (that one was rather crazy :) )
16:26:55 <dbaron> another possibility is that we allow calc() inside calc(), as the same thing as ()
16:26:58 <Bert> min(1em,thick)
16:27:04 <sgalineau> whoa
16:28:03 <fantasai> someone mentioned also width: min(20em, auto);
16:28:04 <szilles> BB: some keywords are easier than others; for example what about 'inherit"
16:28:57 <szilles> DG: the expresion calcultaion should be based on the used or computed value, but certainly not the specified value
16:29:49 <szilles> EE: if we are allowing keywords, that makes the storage of the result value more complicated; it is no longer just a triple
16:30:24 <szilles> DB: you have to already deal with complexity in values like width
16:30:36 <glazou> auto - 10px
16:30:39 <dbaron> DB: so having trees isn't much additional complexity
16:30:42 <sgalineau> min(auto-10px,10%+2.5em)
16:31:26 <szilles> SZ: there are some "auto"s that when used in expressions would give circular calculations
16:32:20 <szilles> DG: I hear that people agree on allowing min inside calc; but do we want keywords too
16:32:35 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
16:33:13 <szilles> BB: I would like the result of computing the result be independent of the property for which the value is being computed
16:33:23 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
16:33:40 <szilles> DB: but, percentages already have different meanings for different properties
16:34:29 <szilles> EE: I think having calc inside min would solve most of the use case why should we do more
16:34:44 <fantasai> EE: s/calc/calc and keywords/
16:35:00 <fantasai> I think it's more important to allow keywords inside min than min inside calc
16:35:30 <szilles> CL: The implementations that currently do not require spaces around "+" and "-" might change if keywords are allowed giving them a use case for the spaces
16:36:22 <szilles> DG: Summary: I hear peoiple supporting both calc inside min and keywords
16:37:02 <szilles> DG: I hear no objection to DB's proposal that min(x, y) is siyntactic sugar for calc(min(x,y))
16:38:01 <Bert> I think "syntactic sugar" means: if the only thing inside calc() is another functional notation ("foo()"), then calc() can be left out.
16:38:41 <szilles> Action: DG: negotiatie with HL to update his module with the above additions
16:38:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-168 - Negotiatie with HL to update his module with the above additions [on Daniel Glazman - due 2009-08-05].
16:39:15 <fantasai> RESOLVED: add min() and max() to calc(), allowing min() and max() alone assuming wrapped calc()
16:39:23 <fantasai> RESOLVED: allow keywords in expressions
16:41:37 <szilles> CSS Media Queries
16:41:52 <fantasai> Topic: Media Queries
16:41:55 <hyatt> "happy" :)
16:42:15 <fantasai> dsinger, there will be
16:42:18 <Bert> rrsagent, pointer?
16:42:18 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-CSS-irc#T16-42-18
16:42:42 <szilles> AvK: What is the next step; do we publish a new draft
16:42:57 <dsinger_> Sorry, Insufficient Access Privileges :-(
16:43:25 <dbaron> rrsagent, make logs public
16:43:36 <szilles> AvK: I can make edits to satisfy the 4 comments so far. Should the next step be WD or CR
16:43:40 <dsinger_> q+
16:44:21 <szilles> BB: if the changes are only editorial then the new draft can also be a CR
16:44:53 <dbaron> It might be nice to see a diff at some point (e.g., when we're about to make the decision to publish).
16:44:55 <szilles> AvK: I will have a new draft for next week
16:45:11 <szilles> Action: AvK: prepare new CR with the editorial changes
16:45:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-169 - Prepare new CR with the editorial changes [on Anne van Kesteren - due 2009-08-05].
16:46:18 <szilles> DS: the media and audio tags allow a media query in the source selection; should the users accessability needs be added to thet query
16:46:39 <szilles> CL: that sounds like a good idea
16:47:22 <szilles> EE: people have said that they want different styling when an image is loaded, but this like the above should be in a future version
16:48:19 <szilles> AvK: I think that we should allow these features, but I would prefer a "registry" approach to adding new query categories rather than requiring a spec update for each addition
16:49:06 <szilles> DS: The idea is that one could inquire about the accessability features that might be included in a given source file
16:49:23 <annevk> media="all" media="all and (captioning)"
16:49:31 <oyvinds> oyvinds has joined #css
16:49:34 <szilles> Summary: people think this is a good idea
16:49:59 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0046.html 
16:50:21 <szilles> Specificity increass due to repetition of psuedoclasses
16:50:57 <hyatt> seems hacky but legal to me
16:51:04 <szilles> EE: yes, specificity inreases and multiple occurances are legal and it does work
16:51:17 <hyatt> i'd hate  to have to special case this to not increase specificity
16:51:18 <fantasai> and it is hacky :)
16:51:24 <hyatt> that would just create work for implementors
16:51:33 <szilles> BB: it is a bit hacky and I am not sure it should increase specificity
16:51:59 <szilles> SG: I would just like an example that shows that it is legal and it does increase specificity
16:52:31 <szilles> PL: This is a giant hack and calling it out is bad form
16:52:45 <szilles> DB: this applies to everything but tags
16:53:32 <szilles> DG: it does not apply to tags because only one element selector is allowed per chain
16:54:17 <szilles> Action: EE: Add a clarifying note to the selector to say multiple occurances are allowed and increase specificity
16:54:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-170 - Add a clarifying note to the selector to say multiple occurances are allowed and increase specificity [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-08-05].
16:54:50 <hyatt> some of the pseudo elements are sufficiently complex (nth-child) that i suspect most implementors just do a list for selectors :)
16:54:56 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jul/0120.html
16:55:02 <szilles> Box Shadow and Border Image
16:55:48 <szilles> EE: I want to lock down a practical version of the spec. I would prefer leaving the spec as it currently is
16:56:14 <szilles> EE: I posted my reasons for wanting this;
16:56:50 <szilles> EE: The main question is how to handle "spreads"; 
16:58:37 <szilles> CL: taking an arbitrary geometry bigger takes converting a path around the object to a stroke; then converting that to two paths and taking the union of the paths
16:59:24 <szilles> PL: are we OK with saying the spread is (may be) ignored for borders (it works on boxes)
17:00:15 <szilles> EE: I am happy with saying implementations may choose to implement spread on border images if they want
17:02:18 <szilles> EE: I am arguing for the proposal posted by RC and DH, rather than what CL proposed; We want the UA to compute an appropriate shadow for a border imaged box
17:02:58 <szilles> CL and DH: We should say "spread" is ignored for border-image
17:03:08 <glazou> argl noise !
17:03:13 <dsinger_> zakim, who is noisy?
17:03:23 <Zakim> dsinger_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bert (24%)
17:03:48 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
17:04:11 <ChrisL> zakim, drop bert
17:04:11 <Zakim> Bert is being disconnected
17:04:12 <Zakim> -Bert
17:04:15 <ChrisL> :)
17:04:39 <glazou> bert: but you were the only one :)
17:05:10 <glazou> lol
17:05:13 <szilles> decision: allow CL time to read the RC/DH discussion
17:05:29 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:05:30 <Zakim> -hyatt
17:05:31 <szilles> Adjourned at 10:05 PDT
17:05:32 <Zakim> -plinss
17:05:32 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:05:34 <Zakim> -annevk
17:05:42 <Zakim> -Daniel_Glazman
17:05:47 <glazou> /quit
17:05:51 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0361.html
17:05:57 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:06:05 <fantasai> That's the start of the thread
17:06:15 <szilles> Above is start of RC/DH discussion on shadows
17:06:29 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:06:30 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:06:31 <Zakim> Attendees were +95089aaaa, +1.408.398.aabb, dsinger_, David_Baron, Daniel_Glazman, sylvaing, +49.238.aacc, Bert, +1.281.419.aadd, +1.858.216.aaee, fantasai, hyatt, plinss, SteveZ,
17:06:33 <Zakim> ... annevk, ChrisL, [Apple]
17:17:41 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
17:23:03 <dbaron> boy, Zakim forgot all the identification we did
18:01:43 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
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19:23:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #CSS
19:41:22 <annevk> annevk has left #css
19:48:18 <annevk> annevk has joined #css
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21:01:29 <sgalineau> sgalineau has joined #css
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