13:58:01 RRSAgent has joined #sparql 13:58:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/28-sparql-irc 13:58:05 trackbot, start meeting 13:58:07 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:58:07 Zakim has joined #sparql 13:58:09 Zakim, this will be 77277 13:58:09 ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 13:58:10 Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 13:58:10 Date: 28 July 2009 13:58:11 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:58:14 zakim, this will be SPARQL 13:58:15 ok, LeeF, I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM already started 13:58:19 + +3539149aaaa 13:58:32 zakim, aaaa is me 13:58:32 +AxelPolleres; got it 13:58:47 +[IPcaller] 13:58:48 +EricP 13:58:52 Zakim, IPCaller is me 13:58:52 +kasei; got it 13:59:17 ericP: ah, ok. wiki lists you as scribing today, but I was asked last week... preference? 13:59:20 + +1.919.200.aabb 13:59:35 + +49.261.287.aacc 13:59:38 Zakim, +1.919.200.aabb is me 13:59:38 +SimonKJ; got it 13:59:47 +LeeF 13:59:51 Zakim, aacc is me 13:59:51 +SimonS; got it 14:00:14 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Vacation_List 14:00:40 zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:00:40 ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:00:43 +Ivan 14:01:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:01:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/28-sparql-minutes.html ivan 14:01:01 +??P12 14:01:03 zakim, ??P12 is me 14:01:03 +AndyS; got it 14:01:11 +Ed_Simon 14:01:40 Zakim, Ed_Simon is me 14:01:40 +AlexPassant; got it 14:01:43 :) 14:02:03 +??P19 14:02:07 zakim, who is on the phone 14:02:07 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AxelPolleres 14:02:16 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:02:16 On the phone I see AxelPolleres, kasei, EricP, SimonKJ, SimonS, LeeF, Ivan, AndyS, AlexPassant, ??P19 14:02:18 zakim, ??P19 is me 14:02:19 +LukeWM; got it 14:02:29 +??P20 14:02:37 Zakim, ??P20 is me 14:02:37 +kjetil_; got it 14:02:50 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-07-21 14:02:54 Regrets: Birte, Bijan, SteveH, Chime 14:03:08 bglimm has joined #SPARQL 14:03:19 just tarting, birte 14:03:33 who is scribing? 14:03:34 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-14 14:03:46 ericP was on scribe list I think 14:03:50 I was asked, but not listed on the wiki... 14:04:11 Prateek has joined #sparql 14:04:12 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-07-28 14:04:37 scribe: Eric 14:04:50 scribenick ericP 14:04:58 + +1.937.775.aadd 14:04:59 Zakim, mute me 14:05:00 kjetil_ should now be muted 14:05:19 zakim, aadd is Prateek 14:05:19 +Prateek; got it 14:05:25 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-07-21 14:06:03 Agenda points to 2009-07-14 14:06:13 PROPOSED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-21 14:06:45 RESOLVED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-21 14:07:20 sure 14:07:22 pgearon has joined #sparql 14:07:30 greg to scribe next week. 14:07:44 + +1.216.445.aaee 14:07:49 Zakim, aaee is me 14:07:49 +john-l; got it 14:08:02 topic: Liasons 14:08:02 + +1.312.863.aaff 14:08:15 ericP: nothing to report from HCLS or XQuery 14:08:24 Zakim, aaff is me 14:08:24 +pgearon; got it 14:08:27 AxelPolleres: nothing to report from RIF 14:08:59 no news from liaisons 14:09:02 topic: actions 14:09:32 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/16 14:09:42 continued 14:10:09 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/19 continued 14:10:16 I have started to get 403 errors on the wiki, it worked 10 minutes ago 14:10:41 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/55 14:10:55 all 14:11:07 I had loaded the agenda first thing, I just hot reload and got 403 14:11:35 hopefully a temporary glitch, just be nice to see the action/issue list 14:11:42 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Vacation_List 14:11:55 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/61 done 14:12:03 +q 14:12:14 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/62 done 14:12:29 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues 14:12:36 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/63 done 14:13:15 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/68 done 14:13:45 q+ to propose that F&R should be early in the meeting 14:13:46 topic: Establish task-forces for some time-permitting features 14:14:07 q+ to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues vis a vis http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues 14:14:16 ack pgearon 14:14:19 action-55 continued! 14:14:26 ack me 14:14:27 kjetil_, you wanted to propose that F&R should be early in the meeting 14:16:12 Zakim, mute me 14:16:12 kjetil_ should now be muted 14:16:24 we will discuss F&R before negation. 14:16:46 LeeF: should we be using issue tracker or the wiki? 14:16:57 q+ to say that HTTP RESTful is missing from the agenda too 14:17:12 q+ 14:17:14 AxelPolleres: goal of the page is to aggregate e.g. update issues on the update page 14:17:17 Is the Update page supposed to have all the things w have discussed so far? 14:17:26 ack Lee 14:17:26 LeeF, you wanted to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues vis a vis http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues 14:17:35 ack me 14:17:37 kjetil_, you wanted to say that HTTP RESTful is missing from the agenda too 14:17:40 ACTION: Lee to create (& link) tracked issues for everything listed at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues 14:17:40 Created ACTION-70 - Create (& link) tracked issues for everything listed at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/UpdateIssues [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-08-04]. 14:17:59 kjetil: would like HTTP ReSTful update on the agenda today 14:18:23 AxelPolleres: wanted to start with issues we've already discussed. happy to get to [HTTP ReSTful update] 14:18:55 kjetil, update is high-level discussion -- would like that before detailed discussion 14:19:15 kjetil: update is high-level discussion -- would like that before detailed discussion 14:19:29 ... would like a straw poll 14:19:39 can someone explain to me what the high-level discussion is that's different from what we'd already resolved? 14:19:44 q? 14:19:46 -LukeWM 14:19:50 Zakim, mute me 14:19:50 kjetil_ should now be muted 14:19:51 AxelPolleres: will put ReSTful update on next agenda 14:20:10 topic: Establish task-forces for some time-permitting features 14:20:37 LeeF, have we resolved anything regarding HTTP REST Update? 14:20:47 +??P19 14:20:49 kjetil, yes, we resolved to pursue them wherever they make sense 14:21:05 AxelPolleres: while we need to spend telecon time on required features, we don't want to forget time-permitting 14:21:16 zakim, ??P19 is me 14:21:16 +LukeWM; got it 14:21:28 ... would like to find task forces which will meet at other times 14:21:58 ... need one or two folks to drive these issues 14:22:06 kjetil, back on June 2 - see http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-02#resolution_3 14:22:06 ... would like poll progress in a month 14:22:10 AndyS, I think that the update issues discussed so far ought to be on the wikipage, but no one has added anything apart from me as far as I can tell. 14:22:19 q? 14:22:32 I am volunteering for other entailment regimes 14:22:54 I see a lot of things :: "Negation" and "Time Permitting Features" 14:22:58 LukeWM: update wiki page doesn't cover all issues -- encourage group to flush it out 14:23:12 LeeF, we're sidetracking here, but after that, there has come up four concrete alternatives to pursue, some of which are very different 14:23:25 AxelPolleres: think that's covered with LeeF's action to transfer issues list issues to update wiki page 14:23:33 kjetil, ok, that's what i was asking about, since i've been out of the loop for a couple of weeks 14:23:40 LeeF, for example, I and SimonS have forwarded diametrically different proposals 14:23:46 BGP extensions for entailment regimes 14:23:55 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:SPARQL/OWL 14:24:04 AxelPolleres: for BGP entailment regimes, had 5 folks interested 14:24:43 ... Birte and Bijan available to lead Entailment Regime TF 14:25:33 ... expect a report in a month to provide info for F&R doc 14:26:00 LeeF: suggests strawpoll per feature. 14:26:21 I am interested in BGP entailment regimes (to implement some of them) 14:26:30 strawpoll: who wants to contribute to BGP entailment TF? 14:26:40 +1 14:26:40 I am interested by the BGP one 14:26:45 (+1 means yes, -1 no) 14:26:48 +1 14:26:48 +1 14:26:52 -1 14:26:57 -1 14:27:10 -1 14:27:13 -1 14:27:13 +1 14:27:26 -1 14:27:44 -ei^2 14:27:44 +1 14:28:25 Feature: PropertyPaths 14:28:31 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths 14:28:59 Zakim, unmute me 14:28:59 kjetil_ should no longer be muted 14:29:27 AndyS takes lead on PropPaths 14:29:31 AndyS: i will drive the PropertyPaths TF 14:30:07 Zakim, mute me 14:30:07 kjetil_ should now be muted 14:30:13 kjetil: I expect to provide test cases for PropertyPaths 14:30:29 +1 14:30:30 +1 14:30:30 +1 14:30:30 +1 14:30:32 +1 14:30:39 +1 14:31:07 +1 14:31:17 +0 14:31:32 +0 14:32:13 Feature: Commonly used SPARQL functions 14:32:18 LeeF: it would be great if the TFs meet 14:32:54 ericP: TF can "/invite Zakim #sparql" and "Zakim, space for 5?" to get an ad-hoc conference 14:33:04 s/TF can/TFs can/ 14:34:02 Eric: feature function library I could provide input there. 14:34:14 LeeF: this one will be easier so doesn't need so much formalism 14:34:27 AxelPolleres: would like someone responsible 14:34:51 Axel: I will kick off function library discussion 14:35:32 ericP: existing extensibility mechanism provides a good way to extend the core. 14:36:02 AndyS: rather identifying URIs for common functions. 14:36:18 s/extensibility mechanism provides a good way to extend the core. 14:36:20 2009-07-28T14:36:02Z AndyS: rather identifying URIs for 14:36:22 ERG! 14:36:39 strawpoll: who to contribute in function library? 14:36:41 +1 14:36:45 s/existing extensibility mechanism/existing functions and operators table/ 14:37:04 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:BasicFederatedQuery 14:37:32 feature: federated query 14:37:33 AxelPolleres: champions AndyS, iv_an_ru, SimonS 14:37:51 ... TF lead: SimonS 14:37:54 +1 (hopes to contribute test cases again) 14:37:56 +1 14:37:58 +! 14:38:00 +1 14:38:00 +1 14:38:02 +1 14:38:10 I hope to contribute, but not sure I'll have enough time 14:38:31 as for LeeF 14:38:39 q? 14:38:48 ack LukeWM 14:38:48 ack LukeWM 14:39:00 AxelPolleres: we have folks assigned to all features, please go ahead and start your task forces 14:39:12 topic: minus vs. unsaid 14:39:37 topic: F&R document 14:39:40 Zakim, unmute me 14:39:40 kjetil_ should no longer be muted 14:40:02 kjetil: F&R FPWD published 14:40:21 ... my time is uncertain 14:40:36 ... have inserted tempates for time-permitting features 14:40:46 ... need to get them into shape 14:41:00 AlexPassant: will have time in Aug 14:41:41 AxelPolleres: need to get ahold of time-permitting TF leads to get paragraphs 14:41:43 LukeWM has joined #sparql 14:42:21 ... would like next F&R at same time as FPWDs of Query and Update 14:43:24 ericP: would be nice to give time to get public feedback, but not sure that's feasible given the timeline 14:43:34 AxelPolleres: do we need more advertising? 14:43:47 freetext has been brought up 14:43:56 kjetil: swig? 14:44:02 has it been posted to the semantic-web ml? 14:44:12 it has been chumped on #swig 14:44:22 AxelPolleres: please suggest publication locations 14:44:30 ... we shoudl contact liased WGs 14:44:57 ACTION: Axel to re-check where to announce F&R (e.g. liaisons) 14:44:58 Created ACTION-71 - Re-check where to announce F&R (e.g. liaisons) [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-08-04]. 14:44:59 AndyS: when's last F&R, last call [for Query and Update]? 14:45:09 ivan: it's a note, so we decide the process 14:45:40 kjetil: would like to make a wiki page copying the F&R doc so folks can edit it 14:45:58 ACTION: Alex to take F&R current version back to wiki for editing 14:45:58 Created ACTION-72 - Take F&R current version back to wiki for editing [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-08-04]. 14:46:38 topic: MINUS vs. UNSAID 14:47:15 LeeF: AndyS written up UNSAID and ericP's written MINUS 14:47:23 probably a good idea to create new pages rather than use the Category:Features pages 14:47:28 Zakim, mute me 14:47:28 kjetil_ should now be muted 14:47:33 ... from implementor's perspectice, MINUS is an algebraic op to combine result sets 14:47:58 ... while UNSAID is a FILTER which takes a triple pattern and examines existing bindings 14:48:29 ... from query writer's perspective, in most cases MINUS and UNSAID give you the same results 14:48:53 ... when they don't it's when OPTIONALs introduce vars 14:49:06 ... those queries tend to be strage and artificial 14:49:32 BTW: I will assign actions to the TF leads to kick-off discussions, just to keep track. 14:49:44 q+ 14:49:45 ... someone listed a use case, examining where it is more natural to express one way or another 14:50:09 ack LukeWM 14:50:26 LukeWM: if we banned opts, would it make MINUS and UNSAID equivalent? 14:50:44 LeeF: i think we think they're identical at that point 14:51:03 LukeWM: just wondering if there are compelling use cases for OPTIONALs 14:51:15 i'm not sure it can be identical if we haven't nailed down the antijoin(+restriction) issue that ericP was discussing on the list yesterday. 14:51:26 q+ on OPTIONALs 14:51:39 ack AxelPolleres 14:51:39 AxelPolleres, you wanted to comment on OPTIONALs 14:51:57 LeeF: proposal to prohibit OPTIONALs in the unsaid pattern is interesting 14:52:13 kasei, you're right, but i've been working on the assumption that we are dealing with AntiJoin+Restriction, which is the same semantics as UNSAID for the cases in which the two patterns share no variables I think 14:52:29 AxelPolleres: i think restricting patterns makes it harder 14:52:29 +1 14:52:35 ack Axel 14:52:37 +q 14:52:42 ack pgearon 14:52:56 Messy syntax but that's all, I think. 14:53:40 pgearon: leaning towards eliminating OPTIONALs because you don't want to eliminiate solutions which would have !BOUND vars 14:53:54 +1 pgearon. 14:53:55 if we disallow that, then we probably should equally think about forbidding nesting optionals... ?!? 14:54:13 LeeF: who's uncomfortable with prohibiting OPTIONALs in MINUS 14:54:14 +1 14:54:56 +1 to eric's +1 ;-) 14:55:07 for the unsaid version, I think it makes a lot of sense, since I believe optional is a no-op in that case. not sure about minus. 14:55:09 Unsure about this because optionals appear in the LHS so the compatibility rules seem odd. 14:55:38 Could go either way on this, there's complexity in both choices 14:56:09 ericP: would rather the discomfort occur when folks have to understand what happens with unbound vars rather than have different rules for subtraction sets 14:56:21 LeeF: as long as the semantics is clear, for the corner cases, I think we don't have to worry too much about corner cases arising from OPTIONAL use 14:56:30 (hope that summarizes lee right) 14:57:04 Leef: MINUS (modulo ignoring empty results), UNSAID, OPTIONAL prohibited 14:57:22 we *could* say that OPTIONAL on the right is undefined. Is that a terrible idea if there is no use case to use it? 14:57:38 MIUS-AntiJoin+Restriction 14:57:42 MINUS-AntiJoin+Restriction 14:57:44 +1 14:57:47 +1 14:57:48 -1 14:57:53 -1 14:57:54 -1 14:57:55 0 14:57:56 0 14:58:00 +1 14:58:01 0 14:58:02 0 14:58:11 0 14:58:11 i don't want to drag things down here, but i'm still shaky on the equivalence of unsaid and the antijoin+restriction... 14:58:12 0 14:58:17 -1 14:58:50 maybe I need to re-read the emails 14:58:58 UNSAID 14:58:59 why do they have to be equiv? 14:59:05 0 14:59:08 +1 14:59:09 +1 14:59:10 +1 14:59:11 -1 14:59:11 +1 14:59:11 +1 14:59:12 +1 14:59:12 +1 14:59:14 +1 14:59:20 +1 14:59:28 ericP: they don't but I thought that had been asserted for the case without optionals (perhaps I've misuderstood that, too, though :) 14:59:33 abstain on both 14:59:48 probably for similar reasons to LeeF 14:59:53 MINUS or UNSAID prohibiting OPTIONALs on the RHS 14:59:59 -1 15:00:04 0 15:00:07 +1 15:00:10 -1 15:00:10 0 15:00:12 0 15:00:16 +1 15:00:18 0 (not entirely egainst it, since it seems it might drop worst case complexity) 15:00:19 0 (does not know yet...) 15:00:22 0 15:00:25 -1 15:00:30 0 15:00:41 although I think this might be two different things depending on UNSAID or MINUS 15:00:51 I'd rather "undefine" this pattern, rather than prohibit it 15:02:12 AndyS, sure 15:02:37 LeeF: clear leaning towards UNSAID 15:02:44 LeeF/Eric: at least in FPWD we should sketch both. 15:02:46 ... consistent with having AndyS edit the template 15:03:05 ... plus red spec text inclusing alternatives 15:03:56 topic: wrap-up 15:04:13 AxelPolleres: i'll make actions for TF leads 15:04:30 ... action to get TF leads to kick off discussion 15:04:40 zakim, drop me 15:04:40 Ivan is being disconnected 15:04:41 -Ivan 15:04:43 -EricP 15:04:44 -john-l 15:04:45 AndyS: is your understanding that optional is a no-op in UNSAID? 15:04:45 -AxelPolleres 15:04:46 -SimonKJ 15:04:47 -Prateek 15:04:48 eric, can you try to follow the minutes instructions? :) 15:04:50 -SimonS 15:04:51 -AlexPassant 15:04:55 SimonKJ has left #sparql 15:04:56 -pgearon 15:04:57 -kjetil_ 15:05:03 rrsagent, make minutes public 15:05:03 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', AxelPolleres. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:05:07 -LeeF 15:05:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:05:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/28-sparql-minutes.html AxelPolleres 15:05:43 eric, will leave the minutes magic with you for today, ok? 15:06:00 SimonS has left #sparql 15:06:18 ACTION: Birte to kick of BGP entailment TF 15:06:18 Created ACTION-73 - Kick of BGP entailment TF [on Birte Glimm - due 2009-08-04]. 15:07:04 ACTION: Andy to kick off property paths TF 15:07:04 Created ACTION-74 - Kick off property paths TF [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-08-04]. 15:07:11 kasei - you're right. 15:07:26 ACTION: Axel to kick off Function Library TF 15:07:26 Created ACTION-75 - Kick off Function Library TF [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-08-04]. 15:07:45 ACTION: simon to kick off Basic Federated Query TF 15:07:45 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - simon 15:07:45 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sjohnsto2, sschenk) 15:08:00 ACTION: simon schenk to kick off Basic Federated Query TF 15:08:00 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - simon 15:08:00 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sjohnsto2, sschenk) 15:08:11 ACTION: sschenk to kick off Basic Federated Query TF 15:08:11 Created ACTION-76 - Kick off Basic Federated Query TF [on Simon Schenk - due 2009-08-04]. 15:13:57 LukeWM has joined #sparql 15:17:45 -kasei 15:17:46 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:17:46 On the phone I see AndyS, LukeWM 15:17:56 bye 15:17:56 -LukeWM 15:17:58 -AndyS 15:17:58 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 15:18:00 Attendees were +3539149aaaa, AxelPolleres, EricP, kasei, +49.261.287.aacc, SimonKJ, LeeF, SimonS, Ivan, AndyS, AlexPassant, LukeWM, kjetil_, +1.937.775.aadd, Prateek, 15:18:03 ... +1.216.445.aaee, john-l, +1.312.863.aaff, pgearon 15:18:52 LukeWM has joined #sparql 15:21:03 LukeWM has joined #sparql 15:37:28 AndyS has joined #sparql 15:52:50