IRC log of rif on 2009-07-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:10 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rif

14:45:10 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/28-rif-irc

14:45:51 [csma]

zakim, this will be rif

14:45:51 [Zakim]

ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes

14:46:05 [csma]

Meeting: RIF telecon 28 July 2009

14:46:23 [csma]

Chair: Chris Welty

14:46:55 [csma]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0040.html

14:47:31 [csma]

csma has changed the topic to: #rif 28 July RIF telecon; agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0040.html

14:47:56 [csma]

rrsagent, make log public

14:48:02 [csma]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:48:02 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/28-rif-minutes.html csma

14:48:12 [csma]

zakim, clear agenda

14:48:12 [Zakim]

agenda cleared

14:48:46 [csma]

agendum+ Admin

14:49:03 [csma]

agendum+ Liaisons

14:49:10 [csma]

agendum+ Actions review

14:49:41 [csma]

agendum+ LC public comments

14:50:21 [csma]

agendum+ Next steps (incl. telecon schedule)

14:50:39 [csma]

agendum+RIF and XML data

14:50:52 [csma]

agendum+ Test cases

14:50:59 [csma]

agendum+ AOB

14:51:30 [csma]

Regrets: AxelPolleres

14:57:55 [MichaelKifer]

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14:59:17 [ChrisW]

ChrisW has joined #rif

14:59:27 [ChrisW]

i'm running late

15:00:30 [Harold]

Harold has joined #rif

15:00:39 [LeoraMorgenstern]

LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif

15:00:54 [DaveReynolds]

DaveReynolds has joined #rif

15:00:58 [StellaMitchell]

StellaMitchell has joined #rif

15:01:17 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started

15:01:24 [Zakim]

+Leora_Morgenstern

15:01:45 [Zakim]

+??P16

15:01:56 [Zakim]

+Stella_Mitchell

15:02:11 [Zakim]

+??P21

15:02:26 [csma]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:02:26 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, ??P21

15:02:37 [csma]

zakim, ??P21 is me

15:02:37 [Zakim]

+csma; got it

15:02:56 [csma]

Scribe: Stella Mitchell

15:02:57 [Zakim]

+ +1.631.833.aaaa

15:03:11 [MichaelKifer]

zakim, aaaa is me

15:03:11 [Zakim]

+MichaelKifer; got it

15:03:11 [csma]

scribenick: Stella_Mitchell

15:04:32 [csma]

zakim, next item

15:04:32 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]

15:04:34 [Zakim]

+Sandro

15:04:45 [csma]

Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie

15:05:13 [StellaMitchell]

csma: any agenda ammendments?

15:05:50 [StellaMitchell]

csma: will approve minutes from last week at next telecon

15:06:05 [StellaMitchell]

csma: minutes of June 23 are missing

15:06:17 [Gary_Hallmark]

Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif

15:06:48 [csma]

next item

15:07:09 [Zakim]

+ +1.503.533.aabb

15:07:17 [Gary]

zakim, aabb is me

15:07:17 [Zakim]

+Gary; got it

15:07:20 [StellaMitchell]

csma: any news from liaisons?

15:08:01 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: OWL's ??? is delayed

15:08:55 [StellaMitchell]

s/???/implementation report/

15:09:03 [Zakim]

+ +49.715.22.aacc

15:09:09 [AdrianP]

AdrianP has joined #rif

15:09:18 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: I believe Hassan was the scribe on June 23 - it was a short meeting

15:10:03 [Harold]

zakim, aacc is me

15:10:03 [Zakim]

+Harold; got it

15:10:18 [Zakim]

+??P8

15:11:06 [csma]

next item

15:11:36 [StellaMitchell]

action-896 continued

15:12:01 [AdrianP]

done

15:12:09 [StellaMitchell]

action-895 closed

15:12:09 [trackbot]

ACTION-895 Ask participants of RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments closed

15:12:23 [StellaMitchell]

action-894 ??

15:12:40 [StellaMitchell]

action-893, action-892-continued

15:13:32 [AdrianP]

AdrianP has joined #rif

15:13:49 [StellaMitchell]

action-889 closed

15:13:49 [trackbot]

ACTION-889 Answer FAQ 4.1 closed

15:14:05 [StellaMitchell]

action-888 closed

15:14:06 [trackbot]

ACTION-888 Answer FAQ 4.3 closed

15:14:12 [StellaMitchell]

action-887 closed

15:14:12 [trackbot]

ACTION-887 Answer FAQ 4.2 closed

15:14:33 [StellaMitchell]

action-886 closed

15:14:33 [trackbot]

ACTION-886 Answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4 closed

15:15:48 [StellaMitchell]

action-883 closed

15:15:49 [trackbot]

ACTION-883 Answer FAQ 3.7 closed

15:16:47 [StellaMitchell]

csma: faq 3.9, 3.10, 3.11 have not been assigned

15:18:28 [StellaMitchell]

....are there volunteers for these faq sections?

15:19:37 [StellaMitchell]

leora: I can do 3.9

15:19:56 [AdrianP]

AdrianP has joined #rif

15:20:03 [StellaMitchell]

action: csma to ask jos and axel to answer 3.10 and 3.11

15:20:03 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-897 - Ask jos and axel to answer 3.10 and 3.11 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-08-04].

15:20:19 [StellaMitchell]

action: leora to answer faq 3.9

15:20:19 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-898 - Answer faq 3.9 [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-08-04].

15:20:39 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:20:45 [StellaMitchell]

action-875 continued

15:23:03 [ChrisW]

ChrisW has joined #rif

15:23:10 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:23:10 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, csma, MichaelKifer, Sandro, Gary, Harold, ??P8, [IBM]

15:23:19 [ChrisW]

zakim, ibm is temporarily me

15:23:19 [Zakim]

+ChrisW; got it

15:24:32 [StellaMitchell]

action-858 closed

15:24:32 [trackbot]

ACTION-858 Announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense closed

15:24:47 [StellaMitchell]

action-857 closed

15:24:47 [trackbot]

ACTION-857 Announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog closed

15:25:47 [StellaMitchell]

action-850 continued

15:25:54 [StellaMitchell]

action-833 continued

15:26:47 [StellaMitchell]

action-891 closed

15:26:47 [trackbot]

ACTION-891 Post media-type registration to IETF lists closed

15:26:55 [StellaMitchell]

action-890 closed

15:26:55 [trackbot]

ACTION-890 Answer FAQ 3.8 closed

15:27:27 [StellaMitchell]

action-870 closed

15:27:28 [trackbot]

ACTION-870 Contact MOZ closed

15:27:33 [StellaMitchell]

action-874 closed

15:27:33 [trackbot]

ACTION-874 Contact Guido Governatori. closed

15:27:38 [StellaMitchell]

action-859 closed

15:27:38 [trackbot]

ACTION-859 Annoucne to swi-prolog closed

15:27:45 [StellaMitchell]

action-863 closed

15:27:45 [trackbot]

ACTION-863 Contact Jos de Roo closed

15:27:55 [csma]

next item

15:28:09 [AdrianP]

Zakim, ??P8 is me

15:28:09 [Zakim]

+AdrianP; got it

15:28:26 [StellaMitchell]

csma: we have had two new public comments since last week

15:28:40 [StellaMitchell]

...from ontoprise about ontobroker support of RIF

15:29:07 [StellaMitchell]

s/from/one is from/

15:29:24 [StellaMitchell]

csma: what constitutes an implementation report?

15:29:48 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: I will check into this

15:30:45 [StellaMitchell]

harold: can you ask them if I can create a link to advertise ontobroker support?

15:30:59 [StellaMitchell]

csma: I will ask

15:32:02 [csma]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Jul/0005.html

15:32:04 [sandro]

action: sandro to look for a template for implementation reports

15:32:04 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-899 - Look for a template for implementation reports [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-08-04].

15:32:27 [StellaMitchell]

csma: the other email to the public list has two fairly minor comments

15:32:34 [StellaMitchell]

...means that he reviewed the specs

15:32:57 [StellaMitchell]

...we need to reply to that email

15:33:42 [StellaMitchell]

cw: will start the wiki page to respond to these public comments

15:33:45 [Zakim]

+Sandro.a

15:33:54 [StellaMitchell]

s/to respond/to organize the responses/

15:33:55 [Zakim]

-Sandro

15:34:08 [sandro]

zakim, Sandro.a is Sandro

15:34:08 [Zakim]

+Sandro; got it

15:34:18 [csma]

next item

15:36:53 [StellaMitchell]

cw: we need evidence for the AC that there is community interest in RIF...public comments are one indication of that, and there are also other ways it can be shown

15:37:48 [StellaMitchell]

csma: public comment period was to end at the end of this week...do we want to extend this?

15:38:22 [StellaMitchell]

cw: csma, do you expect industry comments on PRD?

15:38:44 [StellaMitchell]

....or implementation commitments?

15:39:17 [StellaMitchell]

csma: mark proctor is interested in doing an implementation

15:40:03 [StellaMitchell]

...ctic also interested in doing an implementation

15:40:27 [StellaMitchell]

...ilog/ibm, oracle, adrian-with-tibco

15:41:21 [StellaMitchell]

cw: commitment to do an implemention is more powerful than public comments

15:41:48 [StellaMitchell]

cw: and what about the academic rules community...is there interest in RIF?

15:42:22 [AdrianP]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:42:22 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, csma, MichaelKifer, Gary, Harold, AdrianP, ChrisW, Sandro

15:42:51 [StellaMitchell]

mk: yes, have seen interest. there is some confusion among people about who can send reviews/comments?

15:43:20 [StellaMitchell]

s/comments?/comments/

15:44:14 [StellaMitchell]

csma: so, do we have enough of a story to move to the next step?

15:44:42 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: we should send a reminder that deadline is approaching

15:44:55 [StellaMitchell]

cw: we planned on having 3 weeks to put together CR case

15:45:16 [StellaMitchell]

harold: do we need to make it more clear that anyone in the public can comment?

15:45:39 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: it is already stated in all documents

15:46:14 [sandro]

"We're appreciate a comment from anyone who has taken the time to read the draft"

15:47:35 [StellaMitchell]

adrian: I can contact event processing and decision ?? communities

15:47:50 [AdrianP]

I will remind the CEP community to send comments

15:48:20 [AdrianP]

the CEP community is very interested in rules, reaction rules

15:49:10 [sandro]

http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/CR_Transition_Request

15:49:19 [StellaMitchell]

csma: then we prepare our case and send a request to CR?

15:49:24 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: yes, see above as example

15:49:39 [StellaMitchell]

s/to CR/to move to CR/

15:50:45 [StellaMitchell]

csma: so we are looking at end of August, early Sept to move to CR

15:52:05 [StellaMitchell]

zakim, next item

15:52:05 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "RIF and XML data" taken up [from csma]

15:52:40 [StellaMitchell]

Topic: UCR

15:53:02 [StellaMitchell]

csma: ILOG person pointed out to me that UCR doesn't have PRD examples

15:53:25 [StellaMitchell]

leora: also, other shortcomings of UCR - it should be redone

15:53:52 [StellaMitchell]

csma: that's much more work than that I was suggesting

15:54:03 [LeoraMorgenstern]

the problem with UCR is that

15:54:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]

(1) the examples that we do have aren't covered by dialects like BLD and PRD

15:54:26 [StellaMitchell]

adrian: original goal of UCR was to show how rules can be used

15:54:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]

(2) we don't have non-trivial examples of what RIF can be used for.

15:54:58 [StellaMitchell]

cw: is anyone willing to work on this?

15:55:27 [StellaMitchell]

leora: I can work on the UCR examples

15:56:22 [StellaMitchell]

....could use help from harold and michael about non-trivial applications of bld

15:56:41 [StellaMitchell]

cw: one use case supported at the core level is mapping between data sources

15:57:23 [Harold]

Another non-trivial use case: Dave's OWL 2 RL rules in RIF.

15:57:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]

Thank you, Harold.

15:58:09 [StellaMitchell]

Topic: telecon schedule for August

15:58:43 [StellaMitchell]

csma: I will not be able to attend a telecon until aug 25th or after

15:58:58 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: i'll be on vacation aug 11

15:59:31 [StellaMitchell]

cw: we should meet within the next 2 weeks to discuss CR

16:00:25 [StellaMitchell]

cw: I can do a telecon aug 11

16:00:53 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is talking?

16:01:07 [Zakim]

ChrisW, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (78%), Gary (7%), Harold (13%)

16:01:47 [StellaMitchell]

csma: next meeting, aug 11?

16:01:56 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: how about next week,?

16:03:49 [StellaMitchell]

csma: next meeting is aug 11, cw can attend, sandro maybe, csma maybe

16:04:30 [StellaMitchell]

cw: subsequent meeting aug 25th

16:05:06 [StellaMitchell]

Topic: RIF and XML data

16:05:49 [StellaMitchell]

csma: I updated this document since last week

16:06:31 [StellaMitchell]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=RIF%2BXML_data-schema

16:08:06 [StellaMitchell]

csma: I still need to do more work on the xpath/xquery part o the specification

16:08:28 [StellaMitchell]

s/part o/ part of/

16:09:21 [StellaMitchell]

csma: the document is currently not easy to read because it assumes deep familiarity with XDM (xpath/xquery data model)

16:11:11 [StellaMitchell]

csma: Dave and Gary have looked over the document - any further comments from them?

16:11:27 [StellaMitchell]

dave: basically what I said in my email

16:12:12 [StellaMitchell]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0041.html

16:12:48 [StellaMitchell]

s/email/email (link below)/

16:13:45 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to look at this yet. How do you deal with xml element names? just concatenating?

16:13:49 [StellaMitchell]

csma: yes

16:14:00 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: this may be ugly

16:15:13 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: ...because in the xml world, namespace names do not always end with punctuation

16:16:40 [AdrianP]

Zakim, mute me

16:16:40 [Zakim]

AdrianP should now be muted

16:17:04 [StellaMitchell]

dave: in the current proposal, he has 2 versions for each case

16:17:13 [StellaMitchell]

...but needs extra details about the qname

16:19:08 [StellaMitchell]

csma: would like to avoid specific syntax for handling xml data source

16:20:22 [StellaMitchell]

csma: gary commented that we didn't consider using functions and predicates, but only frames

16:21:19 [StellaMitchell]

...but frames can be written as predicates

16:22:58 [StellaMitchell]

gary: I think we need extra hints with the import - I don't think we can automatically detect what will be the best encoding

16:23:46 [StellaMitchell]

sandro: another possibility is that we could generate all the mappings that might be useful

16:24:19 [StellaMitchell]

csma: yes, I prefer this option

16:24:22 [StellaMitchell]

gary: sounds good

16:26:02 [StellaMitchell]

dave: what is the argument for multiple mappings?

16:26:14 [StellaMitchell]

...better interoperation if there is only one mapping

16:26:33 [StellaMitchell]

gary: ordering will be lost in the frames mapping

16:27:42 [StellaMitchell]

gary: different mappings are better for different situations

16:28:18 [AdrianP]

a general query construct woul be helpful, not just for integrating XML data, but e.g. SQL queries, SPARQL queries, XQuery/XPath queries, ...

16:28:42 [StellaMitchell]

gary: with multiple representations, we may have a problem when translating back

16:29:19 [StellaMitchell]

s/back/back to xml/

16:31:12 [StellaMitchell]

cw: can you update the document by the end of august?

16:31:14 [StellaMitchell]

csma: yes

16:31:20 [StellaMitchell]

cw: aob?

16:31:30 [ChrisW]

action: csma to update with text and examples by end of Aug (XML data document)

16:31:31 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-900 - Update with text and examples by end of Aug (XML data document) [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-08-04].

16:31:37 [Zakim]

-Gary

16:31:38 [Zakim]

-Stella_Mitchell

16:31:42 [Zakim]

-MichaelKifer

16:31:43 [Zakim]

-Leora_Morgenstern

16:31:46 [Zakim]

-Harold

16:31:47 [ChrisW]

zakim, list attendees

16:31:47 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, DaveReynolds, csma, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Sandro, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, +49.715.22.aacc,

16:31:49 [Zakim]

... Harold, ChrisW, AdrianP

16:31:49 [Zakim]

-DaveReynolds

16:31:49 [Zakim]

-AdrianP

16:31:53 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:31:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/28-rif-minutes.html ChrisW

16:31:54 [MichaelKifer]

MichaelKifer has left #rif

16:33:02 [ChrisW]

stella, you see the minutes

16:33:03 [ChrisW]

?

16:33:07 [StellaMitchell]

yes, thanks

16:33:18 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the phone?

16:33:18 [Zakim]

On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro

16:40:38 [Zakim]

-ChrisW

16:40:40 [Zakim]

-Sandro

16:40:41 [Zakim]

-csma

16:40:41 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended

16:40:43 [Zakim]

Attendees were Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, DaveReynolds, csma, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Sandro, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, +49.715.22.aacc, Harold, ChrisW, AdrianP

16:40:54 [csma]

csma has left #rif