IRC log of rif on 2009-07-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:45:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:45:51 [csma]
zakim, this will be rif
14:45:51 [Zakim]
ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:46:05 [csma]
Meeting: RIF telecon 28 July 2009
14:46:23 [csma]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:46:55 [csma]
14:47:31 [csma]
csma has changed the topic to: #rif 28 July RIF telecon; agenda:
14:47:56 [csma]
rrsagent, make log public
14:48:02 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:48:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate csma
14:48:12 [csma]
zakim, clear agenda
14:48:12 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:48:46 [csma]
agendum+ Admin
14:49:03 [csma]
agendum+ Liaisons
14:49:10 [csma]
agendum+ Actions review
14:49:41 [csma]
agendum+ LC public comments
14:50:21 [csma]
agendum+ Next steps (incl. telecon schedule)
14:50:39 [csma]
agendum+RIF and XML data
14:50:52 [csma]
agendum+ Test cases
14:50:59 [csma]
agendum+ AOB
14:51:30 [csma]
Regrets: AxelPolleres
14:57:55 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
14:59:17 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif
14:59:27 [ChrisW]
i'm running late
15:00:30 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:00:39 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:00:54 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:00:58 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:17 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:24 [Zakim]
15:01:45 [Zakim]
15:01:56 [Zakim]
15:02:11 [Zakim]
15:02:26 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, ??P21
15:02:37 [csma]
zakim, ??P21 is me
15:02:37 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:02:56 [csma]
Scribe: Stella Mitchell
15:02:57 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.833.aaaa
15:03:11 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:03:11 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
15:03:11 [csma]
scribenick: Stella_Mitchell
15:04:32 [csma]
zakim, next item
15:04:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]
15:04:34 [Zakim]
15:04:45 [csma]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
15:05:13 [StellaMitchell]
csma: any agenda ammendments?
15:05:50 [StellaMitchell]
csma: will approve minutes from last week at next telecon
15:06:05 [StellaMitchell]
csma: minutes of June 23 are missing
15:06:17 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:06:48 [csma]
next item
15:07:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.533.aabb
15:07:17 [Gary]
zakim, aabb is me
15:07:17 [Zakim]
+Gary; got it
15:07:20 [StellaMitchell]
csma: any news from liaisons?
15:08:01 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: OWL's ??? is delayed
15:08:55 [StellaMitchell]
s/???/implementation report/
15:09:03 [Zakim]
+ +49.715.22.aacc
15:09:09 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
15:09:18 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: I believe Hassan was the scribe on June 23 - it was a short meeting
15:10:03 [Harold]
zakim, aacc is me
15:10:03 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:10:18 [Zakim]
15:11:06 [csma]
next item
15:11:36 [StellaMitchell]
action-896 continued
15:12:01 [AdrianP]
15:12:09 [StellaMitchell]
action-895 closed
15:12:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-895 Ask participants of RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments closed
15:12:23 [StellaMitchell]
action-894 ??
15:12:40 [StellaMitchell]
action-893, action-892-continued
15:13:32 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
15:13:49 [StellaMitchell]
action-889 closed
15:13:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-889 Answer FAQ 4.1 closed
15:14:05 [StellaMitchell]
action-888 closed
15:14:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-888 Answer FAQ 4.3 closed
15:14:12 [StellaMitchell]
action-887 closed
15:14:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-887 Answer FAQ 4.2 closed
15:14:33 [StellaMitchell]
action-886 closed
15:14:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-886 Answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4 closed
15:15:48 [StellaMitchell]
action-883 closed
15:15:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-883 Answer FAQ 3.7 closed
15:16:47 [StellaMitchell]
csma: faq 3.9, 3.10, 3.11 have not been assigned
15:18:28 [StellaMitchell]
....are there volunteers for these faq sections?
15:19:37 [StellaMitchell]
leora: I can do 3.9
15:19:56 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
15:20:03 [StellaMitchell]
action: csma to ask jos and axel to answer 3.10 and 3.11
15:20:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-897 - Ask jos and axel to answer 3.10 and 3.11 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-08-04].
15:20:19 [StellaMitchell]
action: leora to answer faq 3.9
15:20:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-898 - Answer faq 3.9 [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-08-04].
15:20:39 [Zakim]
15:20:45 [StellaMitchell]
action-875 continued
15:23:03 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif
15:23:10 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:23:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, csma, MichaelKifer, Sandro, Gary, Harold, ??P8, [IBM]
15:23:19 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:23:19 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:24:32 [StellaMitchell]
action-858 closed
15:24:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-858 Announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense closed
15:24:47 [StellaMitchell]
action-857 closed
15:24:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-857 Announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog closed
15:25:47 [StellaMitchell]
action-850 continued
15:25:54 [StellaMitchell]
action-833 continued
15:26:47 [StellaMitchell]
action-891 closed
15:26:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-891 Post media-type registration to IETF lists closed
15:26:55 [StellaMitchell]
action-890 closed
15:26:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-890 Answer FAQ 3.8 closed
15:27:27 [StellaMitchell]
action-870 closed
15:27:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-870 Contact MOZ closed
15:27:33 [StellaMitchell]
action-874 closed
15:27:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-874 Contact Guido Governatori. closed
15:27:38 [StellaMitchell]
action-859 closed
15:27:38 [trackbot]
ACTION-859 Annoucne to swi-prolog closed
15:27:45 [StellaMitchell]
action-863 closed
15:27:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-863 Contact Jos de Roo closed
15:27:55 [csma]
next item
15:28:09 [AdrianP]
Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:28:09 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
15:28:26 [StellaMitchell]
csma: we have had two new public comments since last week
15:28:40 [StellaMitchell]
...from ontoprise about ontobroker support of RIF
15:29:07 [StellaMitchell]
s/from/one is from/
15:29:24 [StellaMitchell]
csma: what constitutes an implementation report?
15:29:48 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: I will check into this
15:30:45 [StellaMitchell]
harold: can you ask them if I can create a link to advertise ontobroker support?
15:30:59 [StellaMitchell]
csma: I will ask
15:32:02 [csma]
15:32:04 [sandro]
action: sandro to look for a template for implementation reports
15:32:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-899 - Look for a template for implementation reports [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-08-04].
15:32:27 [StellaMitchell]
csma: the other email to the public list has two fairly minor comments
15:32:34 [StellaMitchell]
...means that he reviewed the specs
15:32:57 [StellaMitchell]
...we need to reply to that email
15:33:42 [StellaMitchell]
cw: will start the wiki page to respond to these public comments
15:33:45 [Zakim]
15:33:54 [StellaMitchell]
s/to respond/to organize the responses/
15:33:55 [Zakim]
15:34:08 [sandro]
zakim, Sandro.a is Sandro
15:34:08 [Zakim]
+Sandro; got it
15:34:18 [csma]
next item
15:36:53 [StellaMitchell]
cw: we need evidence for the AC that there is community interest in RIF...public comments are one indication of that, and there are also other ways it can be shown
15:37:48 [StellaMitchell]
csma: public comment period was to end at the end of this we want to extend this?
15:38:22 [StellaMitchell]
cw: csma, do you expect industry comments on PRD?
15:38:44 [StellaMitchell]
....or implementation commitments?
15:39:17 [StellaMitchell]
csma: mark proctor is interested in doing an implementation
15:40:03 [StellaMitchell]
...ctic also interested in doing an implementation
15:40:27 [StellaMitchell]
...ilog/ibm, oracle, adrian-with-tibco
15:41:21 [StellaMitchell]
cw: commitment to do an implemention is more powerful than public comments
15:41:48 [StellaMitchell]
cw: and what about the academic rules there interest in RIF?
15:42:22 [AdrianP]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:42:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, csma, MichaelKifer, Gary, Harold, AdrianP, ChrisW, Sandro
15:42:51 [StellaMitchell]
mk: yes, have seen interest. there is some confusion among people about who can send reviews/comments?
15:43:20 [StellaMitchell]
15:44:14 [StellaMitchell]
csma: so, do we have enough of a story to move to the next step?
15:44:42 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: we should send a reminder that deadline is approaching
15:44:55 [StellaMitchell]
cw: we planned on having 3 weeks to put together CR case
15:45:16 [StellaMitchell]
harold: do we need to make it more clear that anyone in the public can comment?
15:45:39 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: it is already stated in all documents
15:46:14 [sandro]
"We're appreciate a comment from anyone who has taken the time to read the draft"
15:47:35 [StellaMitchell]
adrian: I can contact event processing and decision ?? communities
15:47:50 [AdrianP]
I will remind the CEP community to send comments
15:48:20 [AdrianP]
the CEP community is very interested in rules, reaction rules
15:49:10 [sandro]
15:49:19 [StellaMitchell]
csma: then we prepare our case and send a request to CR?
15:49:24 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: yes, see above as example
15:49:39 [StellaMitchell]
s/to CR/to move to CR/
15:50:45 [StellaMitchell]
csma: so we are looking at end of August, early Sept to move to CR
15:52:05 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, next item
15:52:05 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "RIF and XML data" taken up [from csma]
15:52:40 [StellaMitchell]
Topic: UCR
15:53:02 [StellaMitchell]
csma: ILOG person pointed out to me that UCR doesn't have PRD examples
15:53:25 [StellaMitchell]
leora: also, other shortcomings of UCR - it should be redone
15:53:52 [StellaMitchell]
csma: that's much more work than that I was suggesting
15:54:03 [LeoraMorgenstern]
the problem with UCR is that
15:54:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]
(1) the examples that we do have aren't covered by dialects like BLD and PRD
15:54:26 [StellaMitchell]
adrian: original goal of UCR was to show how rules can be used
15:54:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]
(2) we don't have non-trivial examples of what RIF can be used for.
15:54:58 [StellaMitchell]
cw: is anyone willing to work on this?
15:55:27 [StellaMitchell]
leora: I can work on the UCR examples
15:56:22 [StellaMitchell]
....could use help from harold and michael about non-trivial applications of bld
15:56:41 [StellaMitchell]
cw: one use case supported at the core level is mapping between data sources
15:57:23 [Harold]
Another non-trivial use case: Dave's OWL 2 RL rules in RIF.
15:57:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Thank you, Harold.
15:58:09 [StellaMitchell]
Topic: telecon schedule for August
15:58:43 [StellaMitchell]
csma: I will not be able to attend a telecon until aug 25th or after
15:58:58 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: i'll be on vacation aug 11
15:59:31 [StellaMitchell]
cw: we should meet within the next 2 weeks to discuss CR
16:00:25 [StellaMitchell]
cw: I can do a telecon aug 11
16:00:53 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is talking?
16:01:07 [Zakim]
ChrisW, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (78%), Gary (7%), Harold (13%)
16:01:47 [StellaMitchell]
csma: next meeting, aug 11?
16:01:56 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: how about next week,?
16:03:49 [StellaMitchell]
csma: next meeting is aug 11, cw can attend, sandro maybe, csma maybe
16:04:30 [StellaMitchell]
cw: subsequent meeting aug 25th
16:05:06 [StellaMitchell]
Topic: RIF and XML data
16:05:49 [StellaMitchell]
csma: I updated this document since last week
16:06:31 [StellaMitchell]
16:08:06 [StellaMitchell]
csma: I still need to do more work on the xpath/xquery part o the specification
16:08:28 [StellaMitchell]
s/part o/ part of/
16:09:21 [StellaMitchell]
csma: the document is currently not easy to read because it assumes deep familiarity with XDM (xpath/xquery data model)
16:11:11 [StellaMitchell]
csma: Dave and Gary have looked over the document - any further comments from them?
16:11:27 [StellaMitchell]
dave: basically what I said in my email
16:12:12 [StellaMitchell]
16:12:48 [StellaMitchell]
s/email/email (link below)/
16:13:45 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to look at this yet. How do you deal with xml element names? just concatenating?
16:13:49 [StellaMitchell]
csma: yes
16:14:00 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: this may be ugly
16:15:13 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: ...because in the xml world, namespace names do not always end with punctuation
16:16:40 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
16:16:40 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
16:17:04 [StellaMitchell]
dave: in the current proposal, he has 2 versions for each case
16:17:13 [StellaMitchell]
...but needs extra details about the qname
16:19:08 [StellaMitchell]
csma: would like to avoid specific syntax for handling xml data source
16:20:22 [StellaMitchell]
csma: gary commented that we didn't consider using functions and predicates, but only frames
16:21:19 [StellaMitchell]
...but frames can be written as predicates
16:22:58 [StellaMitchell]
gary: I think we need extra hints with the import - I don't think we can automatically detect what will be the best encoding
16:23:46 [StellaMitchell]
sandro: another possibility is that we could generate all the mappings that might be useful
16:24:19 [StellaMitchell]
csma: yes, I prefer this option
16:24:22 [StellaMitchell]
gary: sounds good
16:26:02 [StellaMitchell]
dave: what is the argument for multiple mappings?
16:26:14 [StellaMitchell]
...better interoperation if there is only one mapping
16:26:33 [StellaMitchell]
gary: ordering will be lost in the frames mapping
16:27:42 [StellaMitchell]
gary: different mappings are better for different situations
16:28:18 [AdrianP]
a general query construct woul be helpful, not just for integrating XML data, but e.g. SQL queries, SPARQL queries, XQuery/XPath queries, ...
16:28:42 [StellaMitchell]
gary: with multiple representations, we may have a problem when translating back
16:29:19 [StellaMitchell]
s/back/back to xml/
16:31:12 [StellaMitchell]
cw: can you update the document by the end of august?
16:31:14 [StellaMitchell]
csma: yes
16:31:20 [StellaMitchell]
cw: aob?
16:31:30 [ChrisW]
action: csma to update with text and examples by end of Aug (XML data document)
16:31:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-900 - Update with text and examples by end of Aug (XML data document) [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-08-04].
16:31:37 [Zakim]
16:31:38 [Zakim]
16:31:42 [Zakim]
16:31:43 [Zakim]
16:31:46 [Zakim]
16:31:47 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:31:47 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, DaveReynolds, csma, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Sandro, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, +49.715.22.aacc,
16:31:49 [Zakim]
... Harold, ChrisW, AdrianP
16:31:49 [Zakim]
16:31:49 [Zakim]
16:31:53 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
16:31:54 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif
16:33:02 [ChrisW]
stella, you see the minutes
16:33:03 [ChrisW]
16:33:07 [StellaMitchell]
yes, thanks
16:33:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro
16:40:38 [Zakim]
16:40:40 [Zakim]
16:40:41 [Zakim]
16:40:41 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:40:43 [Zakim]
Attendees were Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, DaveReynolds, csma, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, Sandro, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, +49.715.22.aacc, Harold, ChrisW, AdrianP
16:40:54 [csma]
csma has left #rif