13:54:14 RRSAgent has joined #sparql 13:54:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-irc 13:54:23 Zakim has joined #sparql 13:54:35 Zakim, this will be SPARQL 13:54:35 ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 13:55:27 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:55:35 + +3539149aaaa 13:55:45 + +7.441.173.70.aabb 13:55:45 Zakim, aaaa is me 13:55:45 +AxelPolleres; got it 13:55:47 -AxelPolleres 13:55:48 +AxelPolleres 13:55:56 LukeWM_ has joined #sparql 13:55:56 - +7.441.173.70.aabb 13:55:58 swh_ has joined #sparql 13:56:03 +john-l 13:56:11 Zakim, please dail ericP-office 13:56:11 I don't understand 'please dail ericP-office', ericP 13:56:25 Zakim, please dial ericP-office 13:56:26 ok, ericP; the call is being made 13:56:26 +EricP 13:56:29 + +7.441.173.70.aacc 13:56:55 who dialed in from +7 ? 13:57:02 zakim, aacc is me 13:57:02 +AndyS; got it 13:57:05 + +200000aadd 13:57:08 It's the UK dialin 13:57:19 + +200000aaee 13:57:26 Zakim, /200000aadd is me 13:57:26 sorry, alepas, I do not recognize a party named '/200000aadd' 13:57:34 Zakim, +200000aadd is me 13:57:34 +alepas; got it 13:57:40 but zakim usually prints ??P foo for it. I had to try twice to get in. 13:58:10 - +200000aaee 13:58:23 bglimm has joined #SPARQL 13:58:53 SimonKJ has joined #sparql 13:59:05 +kasei 13:59:09 Zakim, mute me 13:59:09 kasei should now be muted 13:59:30 + +0186528aaff 13:59:48 +ARonksley 13:59:56 Zakim, +0186528aaff 13:59:56 I don't understand '+0186528aaff', bglimm 14:00:06 Zakim, +0186528aaff is bglimm 14:00:06 +bglimm; got it 14:00:18 can we find out which line were on? 14:00:19 Zakim, mute me 14:00:19 bglimm should now be muted 14:00:28 zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:00:28 ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:00:29 what's the code for putting your hand up 14:00:33 +Ivan 14:00:40 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:00:40 On the phone I see AxelPolleres, john-l, EricP, AndyS, alepas, kasei (muted), bglimm (muted), ARonksley, Ivan 14:00:42 Who is ARonksley? 14:00:56 + +1.919.663.aagg 14:01:10 kjetil_ has joined #sparql 14:01:20 Zakim, ARonksley is [Garlik] 14:01:20 +[Garlik]; got it 14:01:27 Zakim, +1.919.663.aagg is SimonKJ 14:01:28 +SimonKJ; got it 14:01:30 Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH LukeWM_ 14:01:30 +SteveH, LukeWM_; got it 14:01:31 ack ARonklsey 14:01:34 q? 14:01:43 q- 14:01:46 q= 14:01:51 q? 14:01:51 q? 14:02:00 queue= 14:02:05 ack ARonksley 14:02:07 queue="" 14:02:08 +alepas.a 14:02:23 Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:02:24 On the phone I see AxelPolleres, john-l, EricP, AndyS, alepas, kasei (muted), bglimm (muted), [Garlik], Ivan, SimonKJ, alepas.a 14:02:29 [Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM_ 14:02:45 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-07-21 14:03:02 Zakim, who is talking 14:03:03 I don't understand 'who is talking', kjetil_ 14:03:11 scribenick SteveH 14:03:15 Zakim, who is talking? 14:03:16 scribe: Steve Harris 14:03:25 kjetil_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (12%), alepas.a (6%), Ivan (4%) 14:03:37 +Chimezie_Ogbuji 14:03:39 Zakim, alepas.a is kjetil 14:03:39 +kjetil; got it 14:03:49 Zakim, alepas.a is me 14:03:49 sorry, kjetil_, I do not recognize a party named 'alepas.a' 14:04:38 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-14 14:04:45 accept last minutes? 14:04:53 PROPOSED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-14 14:05:11 RESOLVED: accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-07-14 14:05:35 Prateek has joined #sparql 14:05:53 ericP to scribe next week, but at risk for next 2 meetings 14:06:11 Zakim: mute me 14:06:23 greg to scribe is eric not available 14:06:32 +Prateek 14:07:01 phase 1 charter, finalised just now, should go next week 14:07:09 ivan: ^^ 14:07:26 ivan: should take effect sept 1st 14:07:33 q? 14:07:35 s/next week/this week/ 14:07:45 queue= 14:07:58 vacation plans 14:08:27 wiki page? 14:08:40 ACTION: AxelPolleres to setup wiki page 14:08:40 Sorry, couldn't find user - AxelPolleres 14:09:10 ACTION: Axel to setup wiki page to capture vacation times 14:09:10 Created ACTION-61 - Setup wiki page to capture vacation times [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-07-28]. 14:09:25 Liassons 14:09:32 chimezie has joined #sparql 14:09:33 no news from OWL 14:09:35 nothing from HCLS 14:09:46 nothing from XQuery 14:09:54 nothing from RIF 14:10:07 Zakim, mute me 14:10:07 Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted 14:10:09 nothing from RDB2RDF 14:10:21 Actions... 14:11:44 SPARQL Update reviews were done 14:12:18 ericP: I have implemented SPARUL a coulpe of times 14:12:32 ericP: went a bit beyond the draft, with [some stuff couldn't hear] 14:12:38 ACTION: Eric to add review/experiences on SPARQL/update 14:12:38 Created ACTION-62 - Add review/experiences on SPARQL/update [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-07-28]. 14:13:33 kjetil_: action 58 is done 14:14:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0061.html 14:15:49 on #60, I didn't follow up on Kjetil's mail as I thought it, and Andy's response, summarized things well and I didn't feel I could add anything 14:15:56 SPARQL/Update 14:16:07 SimonKJ: ok, that's fine 14:16:28 AlexPassant: ok with the submission 14:16:48 AlexPassant: INSERT two forms, feels that it would be easier for the end user to only have one 14:17:08 AlexPassant: Add ing a MOVE keyword would be more convienient 14:17:23 AlexPassant: [seomthing] would be better in the protocol than the language 14:17:37 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0069.html 14:18:06 s/[seomthing]/SILENT 14:18:16 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0073.html 14:18:25 LukeWM_, no strong opinions 14:18:36 LukeWM_, thought INSERT/UPDATE would be better in protocol? 14:18:57 LukeWM_, there are a bunch of verbs no clear when you can use WHERE etc. 14:19:05 LukeWM_, not clear when you should use MODIFY 14:19:33 AxelPolleres: hoping for comments on that review 14:19:55 ericP: people can rework grammars 14:20:10 Eric, pointer to grammar tool to extend change the grammar. 14:20:11 AndyS: is it the same one in the submissions 14:20:21 ericP: no, it's the same as the one in the comment 14:20:23 all of my comments are in http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/04/Comment 14:20:50 sorry, those LukeWM_,'s should be :'s 14:21:07 http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARUL_EGP?lang=perl&markup=html 14:21:18 http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARUL?lang=perl&markup=html 14:21:33 ericP, tweaked version of grammar 14:21:40 ericP: tweaked version of grammar 14:21:54 looks really useful, ericP 14:22:00 ericP: can try tweaking the grammar and see if it still works 14:22:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0076.html 14:22:52 SimonKJ: transactions, good to be clear upfront that transactions are out of scope 14:23:11 SimonKJ: if youre a SQL dev. then INSERT+DEL is normal, but in a transaction 14:23:21 Simon, transactions missing for intuitive way to "MOVE" 14:23:24 SimonKJ: having a move would let us make it atomic 14:23:26 q+ 14:23:36 SimonKJ: same concerns about INSERT two forms 14:23:44 SimonKJ: went from not liking to neutral 14:24:10 SimonKJ: on UPDATE there is some wording around graphs existing or not, should eb consistent 14:24:21 SimonKJ: add some wording to sections that dont mention 14:24:35 SimonKJ: CLEAR needs some expansion, "does not remove graph" 14:24:38 SimonKJ: What happens on updates on non-existing graphs? 14:24:49 SimonKJ: security seems to be out of band 14:25:00 SimonKJ: will be important in the protocol 14:25:09 ack SteveH 14:25:18 -kjetil 14:26:11 (steve pls summarize your comment on IRC I possible) 14:27:28 kjetil_ has joined #sparql 14:27:38 AndyS: MOVE gives the impl. more scope to impose atomicity 14:27:41 Andy: It is more an implementation issue how to support atomicity. 14:28:08 q+ to make a meta point 14:28:11 +[Garlik.a] 14:28:15 q- 14:28:26 if SteveH could comment on email we can pick up the discussion there 14:28:48 q- 14:28:55 AxelPolleres: suggest that we confirm to use SPARUL as the basis for SPARQL/Update 14:29:02 +1 14:29:08 +1 14:29:09 +1 14:29:32 +1 14:29:39 q? 14:29:42 +1 14:29:42 what does "formally" mean in this case? 14:29:44 +1 14:29:45 +1 14:29:53 +1 14:30:00 +1 14:30:08 PROPOSED: Base "SPARQL/Update" on the SPARQL/Update submission 14:30:12 =1 14:30:14 +1 14:30:16 +1 14:30:36 no objections, no abstentions 14:30:41 RESOLVED: Base "SPARQL/Update" on the SPARQL/Update submission 14:30:52 I think there is a significant amount of work to be done (e.g. formal model, do graphs exists at all times, MOVE, ...) 14:31:23 AxelPolleres: Andy has some points to raise 14:31:44 AndyS: formal model missing 14:31:45 q+ 14:31:49 AndyS: there's no formal model of what's going on, have to create a structure 14:32:00 ... emtpy graphs issue 14:32:03 AndyS: do graphs exist without triples etc. 14:32:07 q+ 14:32:17 AndyS: can you mix queries and updates, how do they work together 14:32:30 AndyS: something we would concoiusly decide not to do 14:32:43 AndyS: ASK in update 14:32:50 ... can you mix queries and updates in one operation? 14:32:50 Subslect is maybe a better example 14:33:04 AxelPolleres, WHEREs? 14:33:23 AndyS: eg. only apply some update under these conditions 14:33:40 AndyS: could have an ASK to fail some request depending on result 14:33:57 q? 14:34:12 AndyS: there are issues like this that need to be covered, need to be sure were solving the right problem 14:34:16 ack kjetil 14:34:36 kjetil_: some of the comments, I agree with, to MODIFY verb, do we need it? 14:34:41 (sounds like an issue to me) 14:34:58 AndyS, do your ASK { } INSERT {... } scenarios require a super-language anyways? 14:35:08 q? 14:35:24 EricP, you mean SPARQL/Scripting? :-) 14:35:30 ivan: wondering whether the changes we plan on the QL, what effect will they have on the update lang 14:35:36 I also feel that DELETE is a bit verbose and could be simplified 14:35:52 ivan: project expressions etc. do they affect the update language 14:35:52 also sounds like an issue. 14:35:55 I think it is quite close to a FP WD, but Last Call is further away 14:36:09 +1 to kjetil_ 14:36:14 q+ 14:36:23 ack ivan 14:36:24 ivan: difficut to put as an issue 14:36:43 ivan: whenever we discuss adding to query lang, whether it could affect update 14:36:48 ack LukeWM 14:37:07 LukeWM_: I think ivan has a point, worried about inference, has someone else had expereince 14:37:28 AndyS: it ruins your post conditions, you can delete triples but still there 14:37:41 ivan: what's the equivalent of subquery? 14:38:25 AndyS: not sure which way round, "can you have subselects inside" where, and "select which has an insert inside it" or "nested inserts and deletes" 14:38:32 ivan: the second one 14:39:02 AxelPolleres: we need a draft on the table, in order to get interactions 14:39:16 q? 14:39:45 Zakim, unmute me 14:39:45 Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted 14:39:49 looking for volunteer 14:40:03 to summarise issues that have come up 14:40:25 +1 to wikipage 14:40:26 ericP: what about a wiki page 14:40:28 +1 14:41:09 ACTION: start wikipage on Update issues 14:41:09 Sorry, couldn't find user - start 14:41:20 ACTION: Luke to start wikipage on Update issues 14:41:20 Created ACTION-63 - Start wikipage on Update issues [on Luke Wilson-Mawer - due 2009-07-28]. 14:42:09 AxelPolleres: timeline towards FPWD, in charter we'll have tight timeline, should have FPWD by end of Sept. 14:42:22 AxelPolleres: in next week or so should identify editors 14:42:39 AxelPolleres: base on update submission to draft new document 14:43:02 AxelPolleres: all issues in draft in next few months, need reviewers etc. 14:43:30 need to draft new features in sparql/query 14:43:33 could we have a straw poll on HTTP REST Update? 14:43:40 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Template:DesignQL 14:43:55 AxelPolleres: template to help draft extensions 14:44:07 AxelPolleres: should lead to draft of sparql/query 14:44:24 AxelPolleres: volunteers for features 14:44:44 AxelPolleres: people championed features, and filed out strawman 14:44:56 AxelPolleres: recruit as subsection editors 14:45:04 AxelPolleres: do people think that's a good approach 14:45:16 q? 14:45:43 might do subquery 14:45:49 time permitting 14:45:54 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:SubSelect 14:46:30 I hope to write test cases if we continue our W3C membership 14:46:33 AxelPolleres: people responsible for those sections 14:47:19 project expresions... 14:47:52 aggregates... 14:48:02 chimezie: I'll volunteer 14:48:12 first strawman in 2 weeks 14:48:15 negation... 14:48:26 AxelPolleres: lots of discussion already 14:48:30 AndyS: will do negation 14:48:39 ericP: I was about to 14:48:59 ericP: project exp. tied closely with subselect 14:49:15 ericP: it might improve my attitude 14:49:28 ericP to do project expressions 14:49:44 AxelPolleres: plan is to have draft on wiki under templates in 2 weeks 14:49:46 q? 14:50:08 ACTION: steve to draft subqueries in template 14:50:08 Created ACTION-64 - Draft subqueries in template [on Steve Harris - due 2009-07-28]. 14:50:20 ACTION: Eric to draft project expressions 14:50:20 Created ACTION-65 - Draft project expressions [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-07-28]. 14:50:31 due date is wrong 14:50:32 ACTION: chime to draft aggregates 14:50:32 Created ACTION-66 - Draft aggregates [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2009-07-28]. 14:50:50 ACTION: Andy to draft negation 14:50:50 Created ACTION-67 - Draft negation [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-07-28]. 14:51:05 ericP: what form of negation are we talking about? 14:51:11 ivan: good question 14:51:19 AxelPolleres: that's not been decided 14:51:23 Zakim, mute me 14:51:23 Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted 14:51:28 ericP: would be decided by who drafted it 14:51:40 AxelPolleres: should we discuss it before we draft it out 14:52:15 ericP: the working group understands the two problems fairly well, still at wiki stage, until we select one we can't put it into draft 14:52:29 AxelPolleres: can we reach agreement on that in the time remaining 14:52:57 AxelPolleres: wither draft something pointing out both options, how either would work, or... 14:53:09 AxelPolleres: but could put on agenda for next week 14:53:34 ericP: I prefer to keep sketching in the place where it is now 14:53:41 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Template:DesignQL 14:53:45 AxelPolleres: actions are to put it into design templates 14:53:46 -[Garlik.a] 14:54:04 ericP: prefer not to put it there yet, better to discuss on wiki 14:54:20 AxelPolleres: all the drafts go into feature sketch places? 14:54:31 ericP: good trackability 14:54:49 AxelPolleres: the idea of templates is to bring into existing spec structure 14:55:17 AxelPolleres: seems that negation is still a bit open, maybe good discussion for next week 14:55:27 AndyS: what are you hoping to achieve 14:55:34 AxelPolleres: agreement on which way to go 14:55:45 AndyS: email seemed to peter out 14:56:16 AndyS: more support from people not dealing with theory for FILTER, waiting for discussion to complete 14:56:29 AxelPolleres: waiting for clarification 14:56:49 ericP: AndyS was going to write down algebra for FILTER, ericP was going to work out MINUS approach 14:56:55 q+ 14:56:56 Andy has done that. 14:57:14 ericP will do algebra for FILTER approach 14:57:18 ACTION: Eric to sketch algebra for minus. 14:57:18 Created ACTION-68 - Sketch algebra for minus. [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-07-28]. 14:57:40 AndyS: one of the important questions is are there any usecases where MINUS can express things that FILTER can't 14:57:47 AndyS: Are ther use cases where minus can express what unsaid can't? 14:57:52 AndyS: what real usecases are we trying to address 14:58:17 kjetil_ has joined #sparql 14:58:23 ericP: I hear pushback from people who like monotonic from people who like NAF 14:58:57 ericP: in terms of what you can express, if you do a set minus, where it's close to a relational set minus, then there are a case where !bounds have a particular effect 14:59:07 Eric, can you point us to the email with the example? 14:59:10 +[Garlik.a] 14:59:11 q+ to ask where eric heard that 14:59:12 ericP: it comes down to what happens when you've got optionals that aren't bound on the outside 14:59:24 ericP: in the general case their identical 14:59:35 ack SteveH 14:59:53 I can scribe for steve ... 15:00:02 q+ a side issue for the minutes... 15:00:05 SteveH: people who don't care about theory mostly care about theory? 15:00:16 s/about theory/about syntax/ 15:00:17 q+ to report a side issue before he has to go 15:00:35 AndyS: can you back that up? 15:01:06 q+ to ask about completion of F&R 15:01:28 AndyS: wanted to ask ericP where he was getting pushback from 15:01:37 ericP: from experience of previous WG 15:01:49 ericP: when we have UNSAID we had objections 15:01:57 AndyS but we didn't have minus at that time 15:02:04 AndyS: but we didn't have minus at that time 15:02:15 ericP: it's easier to express that to them as it's this minus that 15:02:25 ericP: I think it would be a more appealing algebra 15:02:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2009JulSep/0013.html 15:02:52 AxelPolleres: ericP can you elaborate on the usecase differences 15:03:04 ivan: charter call has just gone out 15:03:04 Charter call has gone out. 15:03:13 ivan: get your AC reps to vote 15:03:18 q? 15:03:22 q- 15:03:25 q- 15:03:27 when is the deadline for voting? 15:03:29 ack me 15:03:29 kjetil_, you wanted to ask about completion of F&R 15:03:39 -Ivan 15:03:39 ack kjetil 15:03:41 -Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:03:52 kjetil_: completion of F&R 15:04:02 kjetil_: do we have any plan for the completion 15:04:08 AxelPolleres: on agenda for next time 15:04:25 kjetil_: I'm officialy on vacation next week, but will be there 15:04:35 AxelPolleres: time permitting features 15:05:15 AxelPolleres: will need to work independently, not spend much telecon time until we've addressed the required features 15:05:17 AxelPolleres: also, would be nice to have a straw-man poll on HTTP RESTful Update :-) 15:05:37 AxelPolleres, also, would be nice to have a straw-man poll on HTTP RESTful Update :-) 15:05:40 AxelPolleres: have a look at features and consider joining taskforces where you're interested 15:05:58 AxelPolleres: RESTful updates, we have to discuss 15:06:01 next week 15:06:13 -SimonKJ 15:06:15 -john-l 15:06:16 -[Garlik] 15:06:18 -[Garlik.a] 15:06:19 -alepas 15:06:28 -bglimm 15:06:51 http://jena.sourceforge.net/ARQ/service.html 15:07:05 -Prateek 15:07:40 AxelPolleres, what needs to be done to make the minutes visible? 15:08:07 LukeWM has joined #sparql 15:10:22 SERVICE 15:10:22 { pattern } 15:10:56 ACTION: Axel to update deadlines of design draft actions. 15:10:56 Created ACTION-69 - Update deadlines of design draft actions. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-07-28]. 15:10:56 FETCH 15:11:02 ivan has left #sparql 15:11:06 Zakim, list attendees 15:11:06 As of this point the attendees have been +3539149aaaa, +7.441.173.70.aabb, AxelPolleres, john-l, EricP, +7.441.173.70.aacc, AndyS, +200000aaee, alepas, kasei, bglimm, Ivan, 15:11:09 ... SimonKJ, SteveH, LukeWM_, Chimezie_Ogbuji, kjetil, Prateek, [Garlik] 15:11:18 FETCH ?g 15:11:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:11:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/21-sparql-minutes.html AxelPolleres 15:12:07 http://seaborne.blogspot.com/2008/10/walking-web.html 15:12:11 rrsagent, make minutes public 15:12:11 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', AxelPolleres. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:12:30 rrsagent, make public minutes 15:12:30