IRC log of rif on 2009-07-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:45:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:45:30 [csma]
zakim, this will be rif
14:45:30 [Zakim]
ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:42 [csma]
rrsagent, make log public
14:45:52 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate csma
14:46:33 [csma]
Meeting: RIF telecon 21 July 2009
14:46:42 [csma]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:47:03 [csma]
Scribe: Adrian Paschke
14:48:08 [csma]
14:48:40 [csma]
csma has changed the topic to: #rif Telecon 21 July 2009; agenda:
14:50:11 [csma]
Regrets: Michael Kifer, Leora Morgenstern, Axel Polleres
14:50:21 [csma]
zakim, reset agenda
14:50:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'reset agenda', csma
14:50:28 [csma]
zakim, clear agenda
14:50:28 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:51:00 [csma]
Regrets: Michael Kifer, Leora Morgenstern, Axel Polleres, Chris Welty
14:51:35 [csma]
agendum admin
14:51:40 [csma]
agenda+ admin
14:52:01 [csma]
agenda+ liaisons
14:52:43 [csma]
agenda+ LC publicity, comments, implementations
14:52:49 [csma]
agenda+ FAQ
14:53:16 [csma]
agenda+ RIF-XML data
14:53:35 [csma]
zakim, clear agenda
14:53:35 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:53:43 [csma]
agenda+ admin
14:53:50 [csma]
agenda+ liaisons
14:53:57 [csma]
agenda+ review actions
14:54:07 [csma]
agenda+ LC publicity, comments, implementations
14:54:13 [csma]
agenda+ FAQ
14:54:22 [csma]
agenda+ RIF-XML data
14:54:35 [csma]
agenda+ test cases
14:54:40 [csma]
agenda+ AOB
14:55:22 [csma]
Hello CorentinF! Who are you?
14:55:55 [CorentinF]
14:56:18 [csma]
14:56:25 [csma]
Who are you?
14:56:33 [CorentinF]
i'm a trainee at inria, i work on a rif-bld implementation
14:57:15 [csma]
Are you a member of the WG?
14:57:27 [CorentinF]
14:57:36 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
14:57:42 [CorentinF]
should i leave?
14:58:25 [csma]
Well, telecons are for WG members only. But if you can tell me a little bit more about your implementation, we will have that on the record...
14:58:32 [csma]
And, then, you can leave :-)
14:58:39 [csma]
What is your time frame?
14:58:49 [csma]
For implementation, I mean
14:59:13 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:59:19 [Zakim]
14:59:58 [Zakim]
15:00:41 [Zakim]
15:00:49 [AdrianP]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P3
15:01:02 [AdrianP]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
15:01:02 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
15:01:20 [Zakim]
15:01:40 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:01:54 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AdrianP, tobias
15:02:01 [csma]
zakim, I am tobias
15:02:01 [Zakim]
ok, csma, I now associate you with tobias
15:02:24 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AdrianP, tobias
15:02:38 [csma]
zakim, tobias is me
15:02:39 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:02:58 [csma]
Corentin, what kind of implementation are developing?
15:03:08 [csma]
Translating BLD to/from what language?
15:03:34 [csma]
What is your target date for a working prototype?
15:03:58 [StellaMitchell]
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15:04:21 [csma]
scribenick: AdrianP
15:04:21 [Zakim]
15:04:29 [CorentinF]
well for now it's a very experimental work, meant to get an interperter for presentation syntax
15:04:52 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
15:04:59 [Zakim]
15:05:03 [Harold]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:05:03 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:05:08 [csma]
You don't use the XML syntax?
15:05:34 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:06:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.533.aaaa
15:06:10 [AdrianP]
CorentinF you might be interested in this demo by IBM implementing RIF BLD
15:06:12 [AdrianP]
15:06:19 [Gary]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:06:19 [Zakim]
+Gary; got it
15:09:03 [CorentinF]
we planned to make an xml concrete parser as well, but as it's to be integrated with a research project software, the "interchange" aspect is not really critical
15:09:57 [csma]
Great (although only the XML syntax is normative, of course)
15:10:36 [csma]
Corentin, can you sent a comment to the public comment list, so that we have your email address. And any comments you have about BLD would be great, too
15:10:46 [Harold]
15:11:04 [csma]
the public comment address is:
15:11:34 [CorentinF]
15:11:39 [csma]
Corentin, you will have to leave, now.
15:11:47 [Harold]
15:11:52 [csma]
We will keep in contact via the mailing list
15:12:47 [CorentinF]
CorentinF has left #rif
15:13:20 [csma]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:13:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AdrianP, csma, Harold, Stella_Mitchell, Gary
15:13:48 [AdrianP]
scribenick, AdrianP
15:14:01 [csma]
next item
15:14:29 [csma]
PROPOSED: accept minutes of telecon July 7
15:15:05 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:15:27 [StellaMitchell]
15:15:33 [Zakim]
15:16:04 [csma]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of telecon July 7
15:16:07 [AdrianP]
resolved minutes accepted
15:17:35 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:17:46 [AdrianP]
csma: next telecon to review the comments?
15:17:53 [Gary]
I will be unable to attend on Aug 4
15:18:13 [AdrianP]
I could attend first week of August
15:19:01 [AdrianP]
Harold: Chris mentioned that we might need a reasonable number of comments
15:19:48 [AdrianP]
I will be travelling next week, but will try to call in
15:20:02 [AdrianP]
csma: next telecon 28th of July
15:20:40 [csma]
Sandro, will you join the telecon?
15:20:49 [csma]
next item
15:20:51 [sandro]
Sorry, csma, no.
15:21:02 [sandro]
(I hope you saw my e-mail about this.)
15:21:06 [AdrianP]
csma: liaisons
15:21:36 [csma]
Sandro, is there any condition re amount or quality of public comments for moving to CR?
15:22:01 [sandro]
There is no defined line. We just have to make the case that there's been wide public review.
15:23:23 [csma]
Sandro, as OWL liaison, could you push them to comment?
15:23:23 [sandro]
It MAY be enough to have gotten the word out and be ignored. It would be much better to have simple messages along the lines of "this looks okay."
15:23:45 [sandro]
action: sandro to get an OWL-WG comment on RIF
15:23:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-892 - Get an OWL-WG comment on RIF [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-28].
15:24:40 [csma]
next item
15:25:00 [AdrianP]
Adrian: W3c HCLS BIORDF will take a look for a micro array experiemts use case
15:25:34 [AdrianP]
action 889 continued
15:25:34 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 889
15:26:25 [AdrianP]
action 885 closed
15:26:25 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 885
15:26:32 [AdrianP]
action-885 closed
15:26:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-885 Answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL closed
15:26:44 [AdrianP]
action-884 closed
15:26:44 [trackbot]
ACTION-884 Answer FAQ 3.6 closed
15:26:56 [AdrianP]
action-881 closed
15:26:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-881 Contact Aberdeen colleagues. closed
15:27:05 [AdrianP]
action-876 closed
15:27:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-876 Contact Said Tabet. closed
15:27:21 [AdrianP]
action-874 closed
15:27:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-874 Contact Guido Governatori. closed
15:27:31 [AdrianP]
action-872 closed
15:27:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-872 Contact Igor Mozetic. closed
15:27:50 [AdrianP]
action-869 closed
15:27:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-869 Contact Giorgos closed
15:28:00 [AdrianP]
action-868 closed
15:28:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-868 Contact Michael Sintek closed
15:28:08 [AdrianP]
action-867 closed
15:28:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-867 Contact Luis Polo. closed
15:28:33 [AdrianP]
action-866 closed
15:28:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-866 Contact Markas? closed
15:28:56 [AdrianP]
action-861 closed
15:28:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-861 Announce inside oracle, drules, jess closed
15:29:04 [AdrianP]
action-860 closed
15:29:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-860 Announce to hp internal and jena-dev closed
15:29:17 [AdrianP]
action-856 closed
15:29:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-856 Announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB closed
15:29:32 [AdrianP]
action-853 closed
15:29:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-853 Update XML syntax for Core and BLD to use xml:lang attribute for consts closed
15:30:13 [AdrianP]
action-852 closed
15:30:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-852 Review Multiple* test cases closed
15:30:30 [AdrianP]
action-852 pending review
15:30:59 [AdrianP]
action-845 complete
15:31:10 [AdrianP]
action-845 pending review
15:31:25 [AdrianP]
action-842 closed
15:31:25 [trackbot]
ACTION-842 Provide some feedback on new safeness by tomorrow closed
15:32:02 [AdrianP]
action-784 closed
15:32:02 [trackbot]
ACTION-784 Talk to Mark Proctor about RIF implementation closed
15:32:48 [AdrianP]
action-782 closed
15:32:48 [trackbot]
ACTION-782 Talk to ontoprise about RIF implementation & timeframe closed
15:33:29 [AdrianP]
action-780 closed
15:33:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-780 Refactor BLD schema to import Core (help from cke) closed
15:34:50 [csma]
next item
15:35:02 [Harold]
We had two comments from David Mott:
15:35:02 [Harold]
15:35:02 [Harold]
15:35:36 [AdrianP]
Harold: two comments by IBM
15:35:51 [AdrianP]
Harold: we should have a Wiki page where we collect all public comments
15:37:35 [Harold]
Another comment from Nick Bassiliades, Greece, is pending: he could not yet send it for list-technical reasons.
15:38:25 [AdrianP]
csma: wheneve we here about RIF implementations we should ask people to send a comment
15:38:50 [AdrianP]
csma: comment like I read the spec, is better than no comment
15:38:59 [AdrianP]
csma: encourage all contacts to send comments
15:39:28 [AdrianP]
csma: Implementations?
15:39:44 [AdrianP]
csma: should start listing implementation plans
15:40:34 [AdrianP]
Harold: Alexander Riazanov plans to implement BLD in his Vampire Theorem Proofer
15:41:16 [csma]
15:41:22 [DaveReynolds]
15:41:27 [DaveReynolds]
That one isn't empty
15:42:26 [AdrianP]
action, csma change implementation page
15:42:38 [Harold]
The current RIF Implementation plans table is outdated.
15:42:51 [AdrianP]
action: csma to change implementation page
15:42:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-893 - Change implementation page [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-28].
15:43:02 [Harold]
I came up with this:
15:43:05 [Harold]
Possible RIF Implementations
15:43:06 [Harold]
(probably not TextGarden from above Implementation_plans):
15:43:06 [Harold]
dlvhex: Core (see above Implementation_plans)
15:43:06 [Harold]
Flora-2: BLD (Michael Kifer et al.)
15:43:06 [Harold]
Oracle: PRD (Gary Hallmark et al.)
15:43:06 [Harold]
15:43:08 [Harold]
W3C: Core (translator to N3, Sandro Hawke)
15:43:10 [Harold]
RuleML Inc: BLD (translator to Sigma Kee Vampire, Alexandre Riazanov)
15:43:12 [Harold]
FU Berlin: PRD (translator to Prova / Reaction RuleML, Adrian Paschke et al.)
15:43:14 [Harold]
NRC: Core (translator to OO jDREW / Datalog RuleML, Harold Boley et al.)
15:44:54 [AdrianP]
csma: can we put it on the Wiki page
15:45:51 [AdrianP]
action: csma add possible/potential implemenations on the Wiki page (labeled as potential implementations)
15:45:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-894 - Add possible/potential implemenations on the Wiki page (labeled as potential implementations) [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-28].
15:46:26 [Harold]
I don't know if possible Ontoprise and Flora-2 implementations might be related.
15:46:54 [AdrianP]
csma: did not get feedback from Ontoprise yet
15:47:27 [Harold]
Mark Proctor's DROOLS work should be highly relevant for PRD.
15:47:36 [AdrianP]
Dave: Pascal and Markus are currently not able to do RIF implementations due to lack of resources
15:47:40 [csma]
CTIC interested in trying a PRD implementation for SPARQL + construct
15:47:53 [csma]
CTIC also interested in developed a RIF editor
15:49:03 [csma]
Adrian possibly developing an implementation for Tibco
15:49:12 [AdrianP]
Adrian: translation to Prova
15:49:37 [AdrianP]
Adrian: academic collaboration project with TIBCO, working on a translator
15:49:56 [AdrianP]
Gary: work on a PRD implementation
15:50:39 [AdrianP]
csma: heared that ontoprise and Vienna are working on a new dialect using FLD
15:50:56 [AdrianP]
Harold: non-monotonic dialect or just using FLD?
15:51:11 [AdrianP]
csma: a new dialect using FLD
15:51:53 [AdrianP]
csma: CoronteF at INRIA working on a BLD implementation
15:52:24 [AdrianP]
Harold: wonder if Stella uses one of the tools from Hasan or Sandro
15:52:35 [AdrianP]
Stella: yes, I use the tool from Hasan
15:52:45 [AdrianP]
Harold: can everyone download it
15:52:59 [AdrianP]
Stella: can look-up the link
15:53:29 [Harold]
Hassan could be asked if we can publicly point to his tool
15:53:35 [AdrianP]
Harold: meant that it can count a first implementation
15:53:36 [Harold]
as a first implementation.
15:54:25 [Harold]
(if only the syntax part, but it already helped Stella et. al a lot.)
15:54:41 [AdrianP]
csma: you mentioned an IBM demo
15:54:57 [AdrianP]
Adrian: yes, that was demo given last year at the Rules Challenge at RuleML-2008
15:55:10 [AdrianP]
Adrian: need to see if it can count as a BLD implementation
15:55:32 [AdrianP]
I will ask her if she will also send comments about RIF
15:56:12 [csma]
next item
15:56:34 [AdrianP]
action: AdrianP ask participants of RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments
15:56:34 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - AdrianP
15:56:48 [AdrianP]
action: Adrian ask participants of RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments
15:56:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-895 - Ask participants of RuleML-2008 which did RIF demos to send comments [on Adrian Paschke - due 2009-07-28].
15:56:57 [csma]
15:57:31 [AdrianP]
csma: how do we proceed for FAQ; just approve them?
15:58:35 [AdrianP]
Harold: it is an inoffical page
15:58:44 [AdrianP]
Harold: so enough to just approve them
16:04:29 [AdrianP]
Harold: under 3.5. linked "defines" is hard to spot, should be made more explicit
16:04:54 [AdrianP]
csma: there is a commercial implementation by Ontoprise
16:05:27 [AdrianP]
csma: Ontobroker supports RIF
16:06:25 [AdrianP]
csma: should publish FAQ as early as possible
16:06:55 [AdrianP]
csma: maybe should take it as is and publish even without all quesions answered
16:07:09 [AdrianP]
Harold: could everyone complete the FAQ questions
16:07:25 [AdrianP]
Stella: 4.4 wasn't sure about it
16:07:51 [AdrianP]
csma: Dave suggestion to review it later is good
16:08:08 [AdrianP]
csma: 4.4. could be "not yet"
16:08:20 [DaveReynolds]
I've made the link to SWC more explicit in FAQ 3.5
16:08:27 [csma]
next item
16:08:31 [sandro]
the FAQ is already published.
16:08:57 [csma]
Sandro, it is not referenced from the WG front page
16:09:02 [sandro]
yes it is.
16:09:10 [Zakim]
16:09:16 [DaveReynolds]
Yes it is right at the top
16:10:11 [Harold]
FAQ is published but it says: "This is an unofficial draft FAQ"
16:10:16 [AdrianP]
csma: shall we ask someone from the working group to review it
16:10:23 [AdrianP]
Sandro: sounds good
16:11:41 [AdrianP]
csma: added editors notes
16:13:18 [AdrianP]
csma: looked at Xpath 2.0 - reworked document relates to more general elements in the XML stack
16:15:04 [AdrianP]
Sandro: we have DTB built-ins, we could have standard built-ins for XML, i.e. Xpath built-ins
16:16:31 [AdrianP]
csma: should be based on the XML data model
16:17:10 [csma]
next item
16:18:02 [sandro]
16:18:17 [AdrianP]
Sandro: maformedLists
16:19:04 [AdrianP]
Stella: could nothing to be concluded from the test cases?
16:20:13 [AdrianP]
Stella: conclusion could be similar to ArbitraryEntailment
16:20:30 [AdrianP]
Stella: ArbitraryEntailment test case
16:20:58 [AdrianP]
Sandro: malformed lists are structures too
16:21:00 [sandro]
"Malformed lists are structures, too. There's nothing illogical about them."
16:21:00 [StellaMitchell]
s/conclusion could/csma is saying wording is similar to/
16:21:01 [Harold]
A few months ago, "malformed lists" were renamed into "general open lists".
16:21:38 [AdrianP]
Sandro: is a list with a tail which is not a list
16:21:44 [Harold]
16:21:55 [AdrianP]
Harold: part 4
16:21:56 [Harold]
List terms.
16:21:57 [StellaMitchell]
s/could nothing be conclused from the test cases/is there anything that is entailed by the premise in this test case/
16:22:39 [Harold]
Such general open lists correspond to Lisp's dotted lists [Steele90].
16:22:54 [StellaMitchell]
s/could nothing be concluded from the test cases/is there anything that is entailed by the premise in this test case/
16:23:46 [AdrianP]
Stella: maybe a longer description helps to make it more clear
16:24:04 [AdrianP]
csma: if there is not a positive entailment it means there is a contradiction
16:24:17 [AdrianP]
csma: should at least entail the premise
16:24:28 [sandro]
description: "The tail of a list in BLD doesn't have to be a list. It can be like a LISP dotted pair; it's just another kind of structure."
16:24:48 [AdrianP]
Gary: think the premise is entailed
16:26:23 [sandro]
if List ( ?x | ?y ) and is-string(?y) then is-funky-structure(?x)
16:26:34 [AdrianP]
Harold: problem is when there is a variable we cannot control if it is bound to a list or another term
16:27:30 [sandro]
csma: if List ( ?x | ?y ) and is-list ?y then is-list List( ?x | ?y )
16:27:48 [AdrianP]
csma: shall we change description of test case?
16:28:23 [AdrianP]
csma: test says it is not a syntax error if the tail is not a lists
16:29:27 [AdrianP]
Sandro: premise is in fact a list, according to the definition of BLD
16:29:53 [sandro]
although as I recall from LISP it's called a "dotted pair".
16:30:38 [Harold]
Lisp terminology: dotted pair: (a . b) -- dotted list: (a b c . d)
16:31:45 [Harold]
However, (a b c . d) is just 'presentation syntax' for nested dotted pairs (a . (b . (c . d)))
16:32:06 [csma]
PROPOSED: extend 10 mn to conclude on MalformedLists
16:32:17 [DaveReynolds]
Ok to extend
16:32:19 [AdrianP]
16:32:37 [csma]
RESOLVED: extend 10 mn to conclude on MalformedLists
16:35:28 [Harold]
"Note that the last condition above restricts Itail only when its last argument is in Dlist. If the last argument of Itail is not in Dlist, then the list is a general open one and there are no restrictions on the value of Itail except that it must be in Dind. "
16:35:47 [Harold]
16:36:30 [Harold]
5. Ilist and Itail are used to interpret lists
16:38:33 [AdrianP]
Sandro: premise does not entail itself
16:39:34 [AdrianP]
Sandro: need to ask Jos
16:39:53 [sandro]
action: sandro to ask Jos about
16:39:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-896 - Ask Jos about [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-28].
16:42:04 [AdrianP]
Adrian: plan to have a W3C RIF workshop at RuleML-2009
16:42:05 [Zakim]
16:42:07 [Zakim]
16:42:10 [Zakim]
16:42:11 [Zakim]
16:42:28 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:42:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate csma
16:42:28 [sandro]
RRSAgent, list attendees
16:42:28 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', sandro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:42:54 [csma]
rrsagent, list attendees
16:42:54 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', csma. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:43:05 [sandro]
RRSAgent, show attendees
16:43:05 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'show attendees', sandro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:43:14 [sandro]
RRSAgent, who is here?
16:43:14 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'who is here'
16:43:22 [sandro]
RRSAgent, list present
16:43:22 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list present', sandro. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:43:27 [sandro]
RRSAgent, who is here?
16:43:27 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'who is here'
16:43:37 [csma]
rrsagent, list attendance
16:43:37 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendance', csma. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:43:51 [AdrianP]
ScribeNick, Adrian
16:44:01 [AdrianP]
ScribeNick: Adrian
16:44:30 [Zakim]
16:45:27 [Zakim]
16:52:04 [Zakim]
16:52:06 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:52:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were AdrianP, csma, Harold, +1.503.533.aaaa, Gary, StellaMitchell, DaveReynolds, Sandro
17:17:15 [csma]
csma has left #rif