IRC log of ua on 2009-07-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:54:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:54:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/09-ua-irc
16:54:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:54:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:54:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:54:13 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
16:54:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:54:14 [trackbot]
Date: 09 July 2009
16:54:30 [KFord]
Chair: Jim_Allan
16:55:01 [KFord]
Regrets:Jimk Mark, Simon
16:55:07 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:55:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/09-ua-minutes.html KFord
16:55:18 [KFord]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:56:10 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:57:04 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:57:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.996.aaaa
16:57:52 [KFord]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
16:57:52 [KFord]
Agenda+ Status update on editorís draft - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/
16:57:52 [KFord]
Agenda+ Review open action items and update - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
16:57:52 [KFord]
A
16:58:22 [KFord]
Agenda+ Review any new proposals sent to list.
16:58:30 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/09-ua-minutes.html KFord
16:59:02 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:59:09 [KFord]
zakim, microsoft is kford
16:59:09 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
16:59:52 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
16:59:53 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:00:06 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:18 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:02:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aabb
17:02:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aacc
17:03:09 [KFord]
Present:KFord, Jeanne, David,Kim
17:03:26 [KFord]
Present+Greg
17:03:56 [KFord]
Regrets+Henny
17:05:44 [KFord]
Scribing link.
17:05:45 [KFord]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/scribing.html
17:07:00 [KFord]
Scribe: Greg
17:08:21 [Greg]
Zakim take up item 1
17:08:57 [Greg]
Zakim, take up item 1
17:08:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from KFord]
17:10:36 [KFord]
Group giving intros and Welcoming David from Apple.
17:11:14 [Greg]
Kelly introduces David Tseng of Apple.
17:11:30 [Greg]
Introductions all around.
17:14:54 [Greg]
Zakim, next item
17:14:54 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Status update on editorís draft - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/" taken up [from KFord]
17:15:04 [Greg]
zakim, close item 1
17:15:04 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
17:15:05 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:06 [Zakim]
2. Status update on editorís draft - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/ [from KFord]
17:16:14 [Greg]
Jeanne says we're waiting for appropriate approvals, hope to publish on July 16 or 17; until new web master is on board only publishing two days a week.
17:16:46 [Greg]
Kelly notes we're hoping to recruit new reviewers.
17:16:53 [Greg]
Zakim, close item 2
17:16:53 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Status update on editorís draft - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/, closed
17:16:55 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:16:56 [Greg]
Zakim, next item
17:16:57 [Zakim]
3. Review open action items and update - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open [from KFord]
17:17:00 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Review open action items and update - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open" taken up [from KFord]
17:17:25 [jeanne]
s/July 16 or 17/July 14 or 16
17:18:15 [Greg]
Kelly intends to change all open action items to have dates in the future, to be more realistic. We should also review them to see if any are done, etc.
17:18:23 [Greg]
There were no objections.
17:18:29 [Greg]
zakim, close item 3
17:18:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Review open action items and update - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open, closed
17:18:31 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:18:32 [Zakim]
4. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:18:33 [Greg]
zakim, next item
17:18:33 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review any new proposals sent to list." taken up [from KFord]
17:19:11 [jeanne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0008.html
17:20:51 [Greg]
Greg suggests that we should probably use the verb "activate" rather than "click" for actions carried out with the keyboard.
17:21:23 [Greg]
Many UA provide more than one mouse-input action associated with a clickable element, such as right-clicking to bring up a context menu that includes commands such as "open link in new tab", or "save link location", or "properties". It seems that ideally the UA would provide one keyboard shortcut for activating an element by its number, and another to move the focus to the element so they...
17:21:25 [Greg]
...could carry out other operations such as displaying its context menu.
17:24:42 [Greg]
Mouse actions one could do to an element include click, right-click, hover, and initiate drag. The first two seem to be the most important.
17:25:49 [Greg]
Kim points out that if navigation is the only shortcut, and one has to do a second action to activate it, that doubles the input required for the most common cases.
17:26:44 [Greg]
Kelly suggests two parts, ability to activate any element more efficiently than having to use sequential navigation to it.
17:27:23 [Greg]
Kim suggests the input has two parts, identifying the element and then the action one wants to do with it.
17:29:49 [Greg]
Greg suggests we have a glossary entry discussing direct vs. sequential/logical vs. directional navigation, and what we're trying to say with this SC is that the user should have the option to use direct navigation techniques to move the focus to any element that takes input.
17:30:45 [Greg]
In techniques we could suggest that the UA optimize for the most common case of navigating to and immediately activating the element.
17:32:15 [Greg]
Kim discusses the Firefox example that adds link numbering, and allowing the user to display the numbers, type the number and a key to do something with the specified link.
17:34:59 [Greg]
Discussion of advantages of building this into every UA rather than only having it available via some assistive technology.
17:37:03 [Greg]
Kelly suggests something along the lines of "Direct Selection: The user can move the focus to any actionable elements (in the rendered content and/or UA UI?) using a direct navigation command.
17:37:59 [Greg]
Does a current SC already require that the user have the option to have direct keyboard navigation shortcuts displayed?
17:39:30 [Greg]
Kelly does not think there is a requirement that the UA add access keys, and he thinks the new proposed SC would be different than access keys etc.
17:42:31 [Greg]
If we don't want to rely on existing SC, then the new SC would d need to say the user has the ability to have UA assign and display direct keyboard navigation shortcuts for all elements that take input.
17:44:25 [Greg]
Kelly suggests we need three things: assign, display, and let user activate.
17:45:49 [KFord]
Existing keyboard display item is as follows:
17:46:25 [KFord]
4.1.5 Discovery of Keyboard Commands: User has the option to have any *recognized* direct keyboard commands displayed with their associated controls. (Level
17:46:25 [KFord]
A)
17:46:40 [KFord]
4.1.5 Discovery of Keyboard Commands: User has the option to have any *recognized* direct keyboard commands displayed with their associated controls. (Level 1.
17:46:40 [Greg]
"The user can have the user agent assign, display, and implement direct navigation keyboard shortcuts for all elements that take input."
17:49:15 [Greg]
Kim notes that we want to make sure that the wording does not limit it to key combinations, but includes key sequences such as those implemented by the Firefox extension.
17:50:01 [Greg]
Kelly notes that Kim's emailed proposal is a good technique but it needs a more general SC.
17:50:55 [Greg]
David notes that Kim had additional point that the user can request showing numberings for only certain categories of elements (e.g. links and/or images).
17:51:30 [Greg]
Kim suggests that showing/hiding by groups has proved useful in the Firefox extension.
17:52:13 [Greg]
David notes need to clarify that it's by control type rather than by grouping (i.e. arrangement).
17:53:07 [Greg]
Greg suggests things like hiding/showing by category is good for technique but too detailed for the SC.
17:57:54 [Greg]
Re priority of Kim's sub-items such as customization of the labels, Greg suggests we may not want to go into too much detail because ability to customize *thing* should be general and required for almost everything (e.g. how links are visually distinguished).
17:58:33 [Greg]
Kim worries that because the user agent is overlaying information it may not be covered by existing SC's about customization.
17:59:06 [Greg]
Kelly agrees it is different than normal rendered content.
18:01:41 [Greg]
It sounds like we're adding a third general category of elements: (a) user agent user interface elements, (b) elements of rendered content, and now (c) elements the user agent overlays onto or adds to rendered content.
18:02:23 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
18:02:46 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/09-ua-minutes.html KFord
18:02:56 [Greg]
A tooltip that appears when you hover the mouse over an element, which type is that?
18:03:12 [Greg]
Kim notes a difference that one is modal and the other coexists with the rendered content.
18:04:04 [KFord]
regrets+Jan
18:07:49 [Greg]
Kelly suggests that Kim continue working on this, and specifically think about differing priorities for separate portions.
18:10:04 [Greg]
zakim, close item 3
18:10:04 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Review open action items and update - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open, closed
18:10:06 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:10:07 [Zakim]
4. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
18:10:17 [Greg]
zakim, close item 4
18:10:17 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Review any new proposals sent to list., closed
18:10:18 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
18:12:46 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:12:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/09-ua-minutes.html KFord
18:13:37 [Zakim]
- +1.617.325.aabb
18:13:39 [Zakim]
-kford
18:13:40 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:13:43 [Zakim]
- +1.425.895.aacc
18:13:44 [Zakim]
- +1.408.996.aaaa
18:13:44 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:13:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.408.996.aaaa, kford, Jeanne, +1.617.325.aabb, +1.425.895.aacc
18:14:02 [jeanne]
rrsagent make minutes
18:14:06 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:14:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:14:18 [jeanne]
s/rrsagent make minutes//
18:14:19 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:14:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/09-ua-minutes.html KFord
18:14:35 [KFord]
zakim, please part
18:14:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:15:29 [KFord]
rrsagent, please part
18:15:29 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items