IRC log of rif on 2009-07-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:55 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:54:55 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-irc
14:55:08 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:55:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:55:18 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:55:33 [ChrisW]
Topic: RIF Telecon 7 July, Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0014.html
14:55:39 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0014.html
14:55:44 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:56:10 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 7-Jul-09
14:56:23 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:56:28 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:56:34 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Action review
14:56:57 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Last Call
14:57:05 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Test Cases
14:57:09 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Schedule
14:57:12 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:57:20 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:57:28 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
14:57:28 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:00:49 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:49 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
15:00:57 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:21 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:01:22 [Zakim]
-[IBM]
15:01:23 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:01:50 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:51 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:01:59 [mdean]
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15:03:00 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:03:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.802.264.aaaa
15:03:39 [ChrisW]
Regrets: JosDeBruijn AdrianPaschke PaulVincent
15:03:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:03:55 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:04:09 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:04:11 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:22 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:22 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:05:48 [Zakim]
+Leora_Morgenstern
15:06:38 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:08:25 [Harold]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro
15:08:49 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Harold
15:08:55 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:09:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.632.aabb
15:09:37 [Zakim]
+??P26
15:09:53 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:09:54 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:00 [Zakim]
+Gary
15:10:36 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:10:36 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, ChrisW
15:11:01 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:12:44 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:12:44 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:13:19 [Harold]
Chris: Soon there will be a Call for Implementations. Most important thing.
15:13:37 [Harold]
... Start influencing people now to implement.
15:15:13 [ChrisW]
action-847: done
15:15:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases notes added
15:15:22 [ChrisW]
action-847: closed
15:15:22 [trackbot]
ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases notes added
15:15:22 [trackbot]
If you meant to close ACTION-847, please use 'close ACTION-847'
15:15:30 [ChrisW]
close action-847
15:15:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases closed
15:15:40 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:16:02 [Harold]
close action-846
15:16:16 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, who is on the phone
15:16:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', MichaelKifer
15:16:39 [Harold]
close action-846
15:16:39 [trackbot]
ACTION-846 Review RDF_Constant_Equivalence and RDF Invalid constants test cases closed
15:17:28 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:17:28 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Last Call" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:18:00 [Harold]
Chris: Need publicity/
15:18:02 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Publicity
15:18:44 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:18:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary
15:18:48 [Harold]
... Above wiki page is from previous LC.
15:19:36 [ChrisW]
action: Mike_Dean to announce to old joint committee mailing list
15:19:36 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike_Dean
15:19:59 [ChrisW]
action: Chris to announce to ODM, CL, dbpedia, lod, ontolog
15:19:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-855 - Announce to ODM, CL, dbpedia, lod, ontolog [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:20:59 [ChrisW]
action: harold to announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB
15:20:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-856 - Announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:21:42 [ChrisW]
action: harold to announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog
15:21:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-857 - Announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:23:28 [ChrisW]
action: Leora to announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense
15:23:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-858 - Announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].
15:24:25 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to annoucne to swi-prolog
15:24:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-859 - Annoucne to swi-prolog [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
15:24:53 [Harold]
http://decentralyze.com/2009/06/19/notes-from-semtech2009/
15:24:59 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:25:20 [ChrisW]
action: Dave to announce to hp internal and jena-dev
15:25:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-860 - Announce to hp internal and jena-dev [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:25:51 [ChrisW]
action: gary to announce inside oracle, drules, jess
15:25:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-861 - Announce inside oracle, drules, jess [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-07-14].
15:28:04 [Harold]
Alexandre Riazanov: http://www.freewebs.com/riazanov/
15:28:44 [Harold]
Chris: Flora-2 test case where equality is incomplete?
15:29:04 [ChrisW]
action: mkifer to devise a "deep" equality test case
15:29:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-862 - Devise a "deep" equality test case [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-07-14].
15:29:07 [Harold]
Michael: Subsitutivity for functions on 2nd or 3rd level.
15:30:16 [Harold]
Dave: Still an option to implement Core.
15:30:32 [Harold]
... Not guaranteed, at the moment.
15:30:53 [Harold]
Sandro: Trying a Core implementation and maybe beyond.
15:31:30 [Harold]
Gary: Year-old prototype for PRD; will bring that translator from/to Oracle Business Rules up to date.
15:32:31 [Harold]
Mike: As part of Vulcan work on Silk will do BLD and (hyper-)non-mon extensions.
15:32:50 [Harold]
... Translators between Silk and BLD.
15:34:04 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:34:07 [Harold]
Sandro: How can we bring other rules people (who were not active in RIF) into RIF?
15:34:20 [Harold]
... Vendors? Motivational trade-offs?
15:34:35 [Harold]
... Why interested (or not)?
15:35:06 [Harold]
Chris: What about a press release, introductory letter?
15:35:34 [Harold]
Sandro: When going to CR, there will be official Call for Implementations.
15:36:05 [Harold]
... Meanwhile think about RIF being almost done: Hey have a look at it.
15:36:28 [Harold]
s/RIF being/RIF as being/
15:36:44 [Harold]
Chris: Mailing lists etc.
15:37:35 [Harold]
Sandro: Ironically, first target would be RIF membership list, but it's not easy to mail there.
15:38:12 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=38457&order=org
15:40:07 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to contact Jos de Roo
15:40:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-863 - Contact Jos de Roo [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
15:41:48 [Harold]
ACTION: Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) to Sandro
15:41:48 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Contact
15:42:18 [Harold]
ACTION: Sandro to Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic)
15:42:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-864 - Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
15:42:35 [Harold]
ACTION: Chris to contact Minsu Cheng
15:42:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-865 - Contact Minsu Cheng [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:43:55 [Harold]
ACTION: Dave to contact Markas?
15:43:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-866 - Contact Markas? [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:44:31 [Harold]
ACTION: Chris to contact Luis Polo.
15:44:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-867 - Contact Luis Polo. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:44:47 [Harold]
ACTION: Harold to contact Michael Sintek
15:44:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-868 - Contact Michael Sintek [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:45:54 [Harold]
ACTION: Dave to contact Giorgos
15:45:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-869 - Contact Giorgos [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:46:12 [Harold]
ACTION: Sandro to contact MOC
15:46:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-870 - Contact MOC [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
15:46:55 [Harold]
ACTION: Chris to contact NCSR.
15:46:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-871 - Contact NCSR. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:47:29 [Harold]
ACTION: Harold to contact Igor Mozetic.
15:47:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-872 - Contact Igor Mozetic. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:47:50 [Harold]
ACTION: Chris to contact Leo Obrst.
15:47:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-873 - Contact Leo Obrst. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:48:23 [Harold]
ACTION: Harold to contact Guido Governatori.
15:48:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-874 - Contact Guido Governatori. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:48:39 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
15:49:06 [Harold]
ACTION: Leora to contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer).
15:49:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-875 - Contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer). [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].
15:49:39 [Harold]
ACTION: Harold to contact Said Tabet.
15:49:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-876 - Contact Said Tabet. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:49:51 [Harold]
ACTION: Chris to contact William Andersen.
15:49:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-877 - Contact William Andersen. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:50:07 [Harold]
ACTION: Chris to contact Elisa Kendall.
15:50:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-878 - Contact Elisa Kendall. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:50:26 [Harold]
ACTION: Mike to contact SRI.
15:50:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-879 - Contact SRI. [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].
15:51:12 [Zakim]
+Christian
15:51:20 [Harold]
ACTION: Mike to contact David Jones (Boeing).
15:51:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-880 - Contact David Jones (Boeing). [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].
15:51:26 [csma]
zakim, christian is me
15:51:26 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:51:51 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:51:51 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:52:11 [Harold]
ACTION: Dave to contact Aberdeen colleagues.
15:52:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-881 - Contact Aberdeen colleagues. [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:52:46 [Harold]
ACTION: Chris to contact University of Innsbruck.
15:52:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-882 - Contact University of Innsbruck. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:53:35 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2004/12/rules-ws/registered
15:53:45 [Harold]
Sandro: Attendee list of that Workshop could be used, too.
15:54:01 [Harold]
... Using their Position Papers.
15:54:20 [Harold]
Chris: More ideas, especially companies?
15:54:31 [Harold]
... Production rules vendors?
15:54:58 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FAQ
15:55:55 [Harold]
Chris: Need reviews of the FAQ by all.
15:56:06 [Harold]
... Some questions have not answers yet.
15:56:30 [ChrisW]
action: mike to answer FAQ 3.7
15:56:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-883 - Answer FAQ 3.7 [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].
15:56:42 [ChrisW]
action: harold to answer FAQ 3.6
15:56:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-884 - Answer FAQ 3.6 [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:56:46 [Harold]
Mike: Take RIF and SWRL.
15:57:13 [Harold]
Dave: Take RDF.
15:57:40 [ChrisW]
action: dave to answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL
15:57:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-885 - Answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:57:51 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma (muted)
15:58:31 [csma]
Chris, I see that you have an action to contact Luis-Polo: I will meet him tomorrow, so I can take the action
15:59:18 [ChrisW]
action: stella to answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4
15:59:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-886 - Answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4 [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-07-14].
15:59:55 [ChrisW]
action: leora to answer FAQ 4.2
15:59:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-887 - Answer FAQ 4.2 [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].
16:00:30 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:00:45 [ChrisW]
action: gary to answer FAQ 4.3
16:00:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-888 - Answer FAQ 4.3 [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-07-14].
16:01:06 [ChrisW]
action: stella to answer FAQ 4.1
16:01:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-889 - Answer FAQ 4.1 [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-07-14].
16:01:27 [csma]
yes
16:01:50 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:01:50 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:02:16 [ChrisW]
action: csma to answer FAQ 3.8
16:02:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-890 - Answer FAQ 3.8 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-14].
16:03:09 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:03:09 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:05:16 [Harold]
Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant
16:05:17 [Harold]
RIF Core document
16:05:17 [Harold]
--for legal reasons we should not confine it to Core-->
16:05:17 [Harold]
Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant
16:05:17 [Harold]
RIF document
16:06:16 [sandro]
"Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant RIF Core document, may require arbitrarily great CPU and memory resources."
16:08:52 [sandro]
action: sandro to post media-type registration to IETF lists
16:08:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-891 - Post media-type registration to IETF lists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
16:09:01 [sandro]
agenda?
16:09:36 [sandro]
topic: Test Cases
16:09:47 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership
16:10:05 [Harold]
DialectBLD
16:10:05 [Harold]
-->
16:10:05 [Harold]
DialectCore
16:10:05 [Harold]
This test cases defines a rule that represents an "isFatherOf" relation between male family members. It uses RIF class memberships to test if a family member is of the class "Male" .
16:10:05 [Harold]
-->
16:10:07 [Harold]
This test cases defines rules that represents an "isFatherOf" relation as a male parent of a son or daughter. It uses RIF class memberships to test if a parent is in the class "Male".
16:10:10 [Harold]
Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isSonOf(?X ?Y) ?X#fam:Male ?Y#fam:Male )
16:10:12 [Harold]
)
16:10:14 [Harold]
-->
16:10:16 [Harold]
Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isSonOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male )
16:10:18 [Harold]
)
16:10:21 [Harold]
Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isDaughterOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male )
16:10:22 [Harold]
)
16:12:07 [Harold]
Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isChildOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male ) )
16:16:44 [csma]
that's why # is allowed in a conclusion only for New frame objects, in PRD
16:17:00 [Harold]
Gary: We know that membership facts are not allowed Core and PRD when we deigned them.
16:17:17 [Harold]
s/allowed Core/allowed in Core/
16:17:42 [Gary]
I argued that membership facts but not conclusions be allowed...
16:17:49 [Harold]
PROPOSED: Approve testcase class membership?
16:17:58 [sandro]
PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership
16:18:16 [Gary]
+1
16:18:20 [Harold]
APPROVED: Approve testcase class approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership
16:18:24 [sandro]
RESOLVED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership
16:18:31 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:18:58 [Harold]
DescriptionDemonstrates how to use frame representation in RIF BLD.
16:18:58 [Harold]
-->
16:18:58 [Harold]
DescriptionDemonstrates how to use frame representation in RIF-Core.
16:18:58 [Harold]
ex:customer
16:18:58 [Harold]
--everywhere-->
16:18:59 [Harold]
ex:customer0017
16:20:05 [Zakim]
-csma
16:20:39 [Harold]
LeoraL Changing ex:customer to ex:customer0017 would affect many other examples Adrian has done (eg Assert and Retract).
16:20:57 [Harold]
s/LeoraL/Leora:/
16:21:50 [Harold]
Sandro: Not sure about the ?Name variable.
16:22:06 [Harold]
... Facts and conclusions can remain the same.
16:22:22 [Harold]
... But ?Name suggests something misleading.
16:22:48 [Harold]
Chris: Right, totally useless example.
16:23:09 [Harold]
Gary: Delete, as Sandro proposed.
16:23:25 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
16:23:51 [Harold]
Chris: Rule applies only to one customer, like in business was done in the old days.
16:23:59 [csma]
Bye
16:24:04 [csma]
csma has left #rif
16:24:07 [Harold]
s/ in business/ business/
16:25:05 [Harold]
Leora: Maybe Adrian meant something we are not quite getting.
16:25:27 [Harold]
Chris: Maybe because of successive changes.
16:25:55 [Harold]
... "Whatever the customer's ?Name is., ...".
16:26:15 [Harold]
... Maybe they change their ?Name often.
16:29:05 [sandro]
PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:29:17 [Harold]
PROPOSED: Approve testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:29:17 [sandro]
+1
16:29:21 [Harold]
+1
16:29:23 [DaveReynolds]
+1
16:29:30 [Gary]
+1
16:29:38 [Harold]
RESOLVED: Approve testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:29:49 [Harold]
RESOLVED: testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:31:18 [Zakim]
-Gary
16:31:20 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
16:31:22 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:31:22 [Zakim]
-Leora_Morgenstern
16:31:23 [Zakim]
- +1.631.632.aabb
16:31:25 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
16:31:31 [sandro]
Zakim, list attendees
16:31:31 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.802.264.aaaa, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma
16:31:39 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:31:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:31:44 [sandro]
RRSAgent, make record public
16:31:58 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:32:33 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:32:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro
16:34:24 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:34:26 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:34:27 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:34:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.802.264.aaaa, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma