IRC log of rif on 2009-07-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:55 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rif

14:54:55 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-irc

14:55:08 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make logs public

14:55:18 [ChrisW]

zakim, clear agenda

14:55:18 [Zakim]

agenda cleared

14:55:33 [ChrisW]

Topic: RIF Telecon 7 July, Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0014.html

14:55:39 [ChrisW]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0014.html

14:55:44 [ChrisW]

Chair: Chris Welty

14:56:10 [ChrisW]

Meeting: RIF Telecon 7-Jul-09

14:56:23 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Admin

14:56:28 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Liason

14:56:34 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Action review

14:56:57 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Last Call

14:57:05 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Test Cases

14:57:09 [ChrisW]

agenda+ Schedule

14:57:12 [ChrisW]

agenda+ AOB

14:57:20 [ChrisW]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:57:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html ChrisW

14:57:28 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

14:57:28 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:00:49 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started

15:00:49 [Zakim]

+Mike_Dean

15:00:57 [StellaMitchell]

StellaMitchell has joined #rif

15:01:21 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:01:22 [Zakim]

-[IBM]

15:01:23 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:01:50 [ChrisW]

zakim, ibm is temporarily me

15:01:51 [Zakim]

+ChrisW; got it

15:01:59 [mdean]

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15:03:00 [Harold]

Harold has joined #rif

15:03:25 [Zakim]

+ +1.802.264.aaaa

15:03:39 [ChrisW]

Regrets: JosDeBruijn AdrianPaschke PaulVincent

15:03:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]

LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif

15:03:55 [Zakim]

+[NRCC]

15:04:09 [StellaMitchell]

zakim, aaaa is me

15:04:11 [Zakim]

+StellaMitchell; got it

15:04:22 [Harold]

zakim, [NRCC] is me

15:04:22 [Zakim]

+Harold; got it

15:05:48 [Zakim]

+Leora_Morgenstern

15:06:38 [Zakim]

+Sandro

15:08:25 [Harold]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:08:25 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro

15:08:49 [ChrisW]

Scribe: Harold

15:08:55 [DaveReynolds]

DaveReynolds has joined #rif

15:09:13 [Zakim]

+ +1.631.632.aabb

15:09:37 [Zakim]

+??P26

15:09:53 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:09:54 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:10:00 [Zakim]

+Gary

15:10:36 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:10:36 [Zakim]

agendum 2 was just opened, ChrisW

15:11:01 [Gary_Hallmark]

Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif

15:12:44 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:12:44 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:13:19 [Harold]

Chris: Soon there will be a Call for Implementations. Most important thing.

15:13:37 [Harold]

... Start influencing people now to implement.

15:15:13 [ChrisW]

action-847: done

15:15:13 [trackbot]

ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases notes added

15:15:22 [ChrisW]

action-847: closed

15:15:22 [trackbot]

ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases notes added

15:15:22 [trackbot]

If you meant to close ACTION-847, please use 'close ACTION-847'

15:15:30 [ChrisW]

close action-847

15:15:30 [trackbot]

ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases closed

15:15:40 [MichaelKifer]

MichaelKifer has joined #rif

15:16:02 [Harold]

close action-846

15:16:16 [MichaelKifer]

zakim, who is on the phone

15:16:16 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is on the phone', MichaelKifer

15:16:39 [Harold]

close action-846

15:16:39 [trackbot]

ACTION-846 Review RDF_Constant_Equivalence and RDF Invalid constants test cases closed

15:17:28 [ChrisW]

zakim, next item

15:17:28 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Last Call" taken up [from ChrisW]

15:18:00 [Harold]

Chris: Need publicity/

15:18:02 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Publicity

15:18:44 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:18:45 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary

15:18:48 [Harold]

... Above wiki page is from previous LC.

15:19:36 [ChrisW]

action: Mike_Dean to announce to old joint committee mailing list

15:19:36 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike_Dean

15:19:59 [ChrisW]

action: Chris to announce to ODM, CL, dbpedia, lod, ontolog

15:19:59 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-855 - Announce to ODM, CL, dbpedia, lod, ontolog [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

15:20:59 [ChrisW]

action: harold to announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB

15:20:59 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-856 - Announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

15:21:42 [ChrisW]

action: harold to announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog

15:21:42 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-857 - Announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

15:23:28 [ChrisW]

action: Leora to announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense

15:23:28 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-858 - Announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].

15:24:25 [ChrisW]

action: sandro to annoucne to swi-prolog

15:24:25 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-859 - Annoucne to swi-prolog [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

15:24:53 [Harold]

http://decentralyze.com/2009/06/19/notes-from-semtech2009/

15:24:59 [DaveReynolds]

DaveReynolds has joined #rif

15:25:20 [ChrisW]

action: Dave to announce to hp internal and jena-dev

15:25:20 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-860 - Announce to hp internal and jena-dev [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

15:25:51 [ChrisW]

action: gary to announce inside oracle, drules, jess

15:25:51 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-861 - Announce inside oracle, drules, jess [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-07-14].

15:28:04 [Harold]

Alexandre Riazanov: http://www.freewebs.com/riazanov/

15:28:44 [Harold]

Chris: Flora-2 test case where equality is incomplete?

15:29:04 [ChrisW]

action: mkifer to devise a "deep" equality test case

15:29:04 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-862 - Devise a "deep" equality test case [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-07-14].

15:29:07 [Harold]

Michael: Subsitutivity for functions on 2nd or 3rd level.

15:30:16 [Harold]

Dave: Still an option to implement Core.

15:30:32 [Harold]

... Not guaranteed, at the moment.

15:30:53 [Harold]

Sandro: Trying a Core implementation and maybe beyond.

15:31:30 [Harold]

Gary: Year-old prototype for PRD; will bring that translator from/to Oracle Business Rules up to date.

15:32:31 [Harold]

Mike: As part of Vulcan work on Silk will do BLD and (hyper-)non-mon extensions.

15:32:50 [Harold]

... Translators between Silk and BLD.

15:34:04 [DaveReynolds]

DaveReynolds has joined #rif

15:34:07 [Harold]

Sandro: How can we bring other rules people (who were not active in RIF) into RIF?

15:34:20 [Harold]

... Vendors? Motivational trade-offs?

15:34:35 [Harold]

... Why interested (or not)?

15:35:06 [Harold]

Chris: What about a press release, introductory letter?

15:35:34 [Harold]

Sandro: When going to CR, there will be official Call for Implementations.

15:36:05 [Harold]

... Meanwhile think about RIF being almost done: Hey have a look at it.

15:36:28 [Harold]

s/RIF being/RIF as being/

15:36:44 [Harold]

Chris: Mailing lists etc.

15:37:35 [Harold]

Sandro: Ironically, first target would be RIF membership list, but it's not easy to mail there.

15:38:12 [sandro]

http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=38457&order=org

15:40:07 [ChrisW]

action: sandro to contact Jos de Roo

15:40:07 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-863 - Contact Jos de Roo [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

15:41:48 [Harold]

ACTION: Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) to Sandro

15:41:48 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Contact

15:42:18 [Harold]

ACTION: Sandro to Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic)

15:42:18 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-864 - Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

15:42:35 [Harold]

ACTION: Chris to contact Minsu Cheng

15:42:35 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-865 - Contact Minsu Cheng [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

15:43:55 [Harold]

ACTION: Dave to contact Markas?

15:43:55 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-866 - Contact Markas? [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

15:44:31 [Harold]

ACTION: Chris to contact Luis Polo.

15:44:31 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-867 - Contact Luis Polo. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

15:44:47 [Harold]

ACTION: Harold to contact Michael Sintek

15:44:47 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-868 - Contact Michael Sintek [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

15:45:54 [Harold]

ACTION: Dave to contact Giorgos

15:45:54 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-869 - Contact Giorgos [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

15:46:12 [Harold]

ACTION: Sandro to contact MOC

15:46:12 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-870 - Contact MOC [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

15:46:55 [Harold]

ACTION: Chris to contact NCSR.

15:46:55 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-871 - Contact NCSR. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

15:47:29 [Harold]

ACTION: Harold to contact Igor Mozetic.

15:47:29 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-872 - Contact Igor Mozetic. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

15:47:50 [Harold]

ACTION: Chris to contact Leo Obrst.

15:47:50 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-873 - Contact Leo Obrst. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

15:48:23 [Harold]

ACTION: Harold to contact Guido Governatori.

15:48:23 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-874 - Contact Guido Governatori. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

15:48:39 [csma]

csma has joined #rif

15:49:06 [Harold]

ACTION: Leora to contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer).

15:49:06 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-875 - Contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer). [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].

15:49:39 [Harold]

ACTION: Harold to contact Said Tabet.

15:49:40 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-876 - Contact Said Tabet. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

15:49:51 [Harold]

ACTION: Chris to contact William Andersen.

15:49:51 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-877 - Contact William Andersen. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

15:50:07 [Harold]

ACTION: Chris to contact Elisa Kendall.

15:50:07 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-878 - Contact Elisa Kendall. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

15:50:26 [Harold]

ACTION: Mike to contact SRI.

15:50:26 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-879 - Contact SRI. [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].

15:51:12 [Zakim]

+Christian

15:51:20 [Harold]

ACTION: Mike to contact David Jones (Boeing).

15:51:21 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-880 - Contact David Jones (Boeing). [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].

15:51:26 [csma]

zakim, christian is me

15:51:26 [Zakim]

+csma; got it

15:51:51 [csma]

zakim, mute me

15:51:51 [Zakim]

csma should now be muted

15:52:11 [Harold]

ACTION: Dave to contact Aberdeen colleagues.

15:52:11 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-881 - Contact Aberdeen colleagues. [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

15:52:46 [Harold]

ACTION: Chris to contact University of Innsbruck.

15:52:47 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-882 - Contact University of Innsbruck. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].

15:53:35 [sandro]

http://www.w3.org/2004/12/rules-ws/registered

15:53:45 [Harold]

Sandro: Attendee list of that Workshop could be used, too.

15:54:01 [Harold]

... Using their Position Papers.

15:54:20 [Harold]

Chris: More ideas, especially companies?

15:54:31 [Harold]

... Production rules vendors?

15:54:58 [ChrisW]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FAQ

15:55:55 [Harold]

Chris: Need reviews of the FAQ by all.

15:56:06 [Harold]

... Some questions have not answers yet.

15:56:30 [ChrisW]

action: mike to answer FAQ 3.7

15:56:30 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-883 - Answer FAQ 3.7 [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].

15:56:42 [ChrisW]

action: harold to answer FAQ 3.6

15:56:42 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-884 - Answer FAQ 3.6 [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].

15:56:46 [Harold]

Mike: Take RIF and SWRL.

15:57:13 [Harold]

Dave: Take RDF.

15:57:40 [ChrisW]

action: dave to answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL

15:57:40 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-885 - Answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].

15:57:51 [ChrisW]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:57:51 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma (muted)

15:58:31 [csma]

Chris, I see that you have an action to contact Luis-Polo: I will meet him tomorrow, so I can take the action

15:59:18 [ChrisW]

action: stella to answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4

15:59:19 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-886 - Answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4 [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-07-14].

15:59:55 [ChrisW]

action: leora to answer FAQ 4.2

15:59:55 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-887 - Answer FAQ 4.2 [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].

16:00:30 [MichaelKifer]

MichaelKifer has joined #rif

16:00:45 [ChrisW]

action: gary to answer FAQ 4.3

16:00:45 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-888 - Answer FAQ 4.3 [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-07-14].

16:01:06 [ChrisW]

action: stella to answer FAQ 4.1

16:01:06 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-889 - Answer FAQ 4.1 [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-07-14].

16:01:27 [csma]

yes

16:01:50 [csma]

zakim, unmute me

16:01:50 [Zakim]

csma should no longer be muted

16:02:16 [ChrisW]

action: csma to answer FAQ 3.8

16:02:16 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-890 - Answer FAQ 3.8 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-14].

16:03:09 [csma]

zakim, mute me

16:03:09 [Zakim]

csma should now be muted

16:05:16 [Harold]

Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant

16:05:17 [Harold]

RIF Core document

16:05:17 [Harold]

--for legal reasons we should not confine it to Core-->

16:05:17 [Harold]

Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant

16:05:17 [Harold]

RIF document

16:06:16 [sandro]

"Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant RIF Core document, may require arbitrarily great CPU and memory resources."

16:08:52 [sandro]

action: sandro to post media-type registration to IETF lists

16:08:53 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-891 - Post media-type registration to IETF lists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].

16:09:01 [sandro]

agenda?

16:09:36 [sandro]

topic: Test Cases

16:09:47 [Harold]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership

16:10:05 [Harold]

DialectBLD

16:10:05 [Harold]

-->

16:10:05 [Harold]

DialectCore

16:10:05 [Harold]

This test cases defines a rule that represents an "isFatherOf" relation between male family members. It uses RIF class memberships to test if a family member is of the class "Male" .

16:10:05 [Harold]

-->

16:10:07 [Harold]

This test cases defines rules that represents an "isFatherOf" relation as a male parent of a son or daughter. It uses RIF class memberships to test if a parent is in the class "Male".

16:10:10 [Harold]

Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isSonOf(?X ?Y) ?X#fam:Male ?Y#fam:Male )

16:10:12 [Harold]

)

16:10:14 [Harold]

-->

16:10:16 [Harold]

Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isSonOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male )

16:10:18 [Harold]

)

16:10:21 [Harold]

Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isDaughterOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male )

16:10:22 [Harold]

)

16:12:07 [Harold]

Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isChildOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male ) )

16:16:44 [csma]

that's why # is allowed in a conclusion only for New frame objects, in PRD

16:17:00 [Harold]

Gary: We know that membership facts are not allowed Core and PRD when we deigned them.

16:17:17 [Harold]

s/allowed Core/allowed in Core/

16:17:42 [Gary]

I argued that membership facts but not conclusions be allowed...

16:17:49 [Harold]

PROPOSED: Approve testcase class membership?

16:17:58 [sandro]

PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership

16:18:16 [Gary]

+1

16:18:20 [Harold]

APPROVED: Approve testcase class approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership

16:18:24 [sandro]

RESOLVED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership

16:18:31 [Harold]

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

16:18:58 [Harold]

DescriptionDemonstrates how to use frame representation in RIF BLD.

16:18:58 [Harold]

-->

16:18:58 [Harold]

DescriptionDemonstrates how to use frame representation in RIF-Core.

16:18:58 [Harold]

ex:customer

16:18:58 [Harold]

--everywhere-->

16:18:59 [Harold]

ex:customer0017

16:20:05 [Zakim]

-csma

16:20:39 [Harold]

LeoraL Changing ex:customer to ex:customer0017 would affect many other examples Adrian has done (eg Assert and Retract).

16:20:57 [Harold]

s/LeoraL/Leora:/

16:21:50 [Harold]

Sandro: Not sure about the ?Name variable.

16:22:06 [Harold]

... Facts and conclusions can remain the same.

16:22:22 [Harold]

... But ?Name suggests something misleading.

16:22:48 [Harold]

Chris: Right, totally useless example.

16:23:09 [Harold]

Gary: Delete, as Sandro proposed.

16:23:25 [csma]

csma has joined #rif

16:23:51 [Harold]

Chris: Rule applies only to one customer, like in business was done in the old days.

16:23:59 [csma]

Bye

16:24:04 [csma]

csma has left #rif

16:24:07 [Harold]

s/ in business/ business/

16:25:05 [Harold]

Leora: Maybe Adrian meant something we are not quite getting.

16:25:27 [Harold]

Chris: Maybe because of successive changes.

16:25:55 [Harold]

... "Whatever the customer's ?Name is., ...".

16:26:15 [Harold]

... Maybe they change their ?Name often.

16:29:05 [sandro]

PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

16:29:17 [Harold]

PROPOSED: Approve testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

16:29:17 [sandro]

+1

16:29:21 [Harold]

+1

16:29:23 [DaveReynolds]

+1

16:29:30 [Gary]

+1

16:29:38 [Harold]

RESOLVED: Approve testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

16:29:49 [Harold]

RESOLVED: testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames

16:31:18 [Zakim]

-Gary

16:31:20 [Zakim]

-StellaMitchell

16:31:22 [Zakim]

-DaveReynolds

16:31:22 [Zakim]

-Leora_Morgenstern

16:31:23 [Zakim]

- +1.631.632.aabb

16:31:25 [Zakim]

-Mike_Dean

16:31:31 [sandro]

Zakim, list attendees

16:31:31 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.802.264.aaaa, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma

16:31:39 [sandro]

RRSAgent, make minutes

16:31:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html sandro

16:31:44 [sandro]

RRSAgent, make record public

16:31:58 [Zakim]

-Harold

16:32:33 [sandro]

zakim, who is on the call?

16:32:33 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro

16:34:24 [Zakim]

-ChrisW

16:34:26 [Zakim]

-Sandro

16:34:27 [Zakim]

SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended

16:34:28 [Zakim]

Attendees were Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.802.264.aaaa, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma