14:54:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:54:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-irc
14:55:08 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:55:18 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:55:18 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:55:33 <ChrisW> Topic: RIF Telecon 7 July, Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0014.html
14:55:39 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0014.html
14:55:44 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:56:10 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 7-Jul-09
14:56:23 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:56:28 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:56:34 <ChrisW> agenda+ Action review
14:56:57 <ChrisW> agenda+ Last Call
14:57:05 <ChrisW> agenda+ Test Cases
14:57:09 <ChrisW> agenda+ Schedule
14:57:12 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:57:20 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:57:28 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
14:57:28 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:00:49 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:49 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:00:57 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:21 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:01:22 <Zakim> -[IBM]
15:01:23 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:01:50 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:51 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:01:59 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:03:00 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:03:25 <Zakim> + +1.802.264.aaaa
15:03:39 <ChrisW> Regrets: JosDeBruijn AdrianPaschke PaulVincent
15:03:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:03:55 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:04:09 <StellaMitchell> zakim, aaaa is me
15:04:11 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:22 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:22 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:05:48 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:06:38 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:08:25 <Harold> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro
15:08:49 <ChrisW> Scribe: Harold
15:08:55 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:09:13 <Zakim> + +1.631.632.aabb
15:09:37 <Zakim> +??P26
15:09:53 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:09:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:00 <Zakim> +Gary
15:10:36 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:10:36 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, ChrisW
15:11:01 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:12:44 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:12:44 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:13:19 <Harold> Chris: Soon there will be a Call for Implementations. Most important thing.
15:13:37 <Harold> ... Start influencing people now to implement.
15:15:13 <ChrisW> action-847: done
15:15:13 <trackbot> ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases notes added
15:15:22 <ChrisW> action-847: closed
15:15:22 <trackbot> ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases notes added
15:15:22 <trackbot> If you meant to close ACTION-847, please use 'close ACTION-847'
15:15:30 <ChrisW> close action-847
15:15:30 <trackbot> ACTION-847 Review Class Membership and Frames test cases closed
15:15:40 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:16:02 <Harold>  close action-846
15:16:16 <MichaelKifer> zakim, who is on the phone
15:16:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', MichaelKifer
15:16:39 <Harold> close action-846
15:16:39 <trackbot> ACTION-846 Review RDF_Constant_Equivalence and RDF Invalid constants test cases closed
15:17:28 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:17:28 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Last Call" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:18:00 <Harold> Chris: Need publicity/
15:18:02 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Publicity
15:18:44 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:18:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary
15:18:48 <Harold> ... Above wiki page is from previous LC.
15:19:36 <ChrisW> action: Mike_Dean to announce to old joint committee mailing list
15:19:36 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike_Dean
15:19:59 <ChrisW> action: Chris to announce to ODM, CL, dbpedia, lod, ontolog
15:19:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-855 - Announce to ODM, CL, dbpedia, lod, ontolog [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:20:59 <ChrisW> action: harold to announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB
15:20:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-856 - Announce to RuleML, NRCC, UNB [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:21:42 <ChrisW> action: harold to announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog
15:21:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-857 - Announce to RR, XSB, F-Logic, Flora, Lprolog [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:23:28 <ChrisW> action: Leora to announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense
15:23:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-858 - Announce to KR, ask about AAAI, check commonsense [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].
15:24:25 <ChrisW> action: sandro to annoucne to swi-prolog
15:24:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-859 - Annoucne to swi-prolog [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
15:24:53 <Harold> http://decentralyze.com/2009/06/19/notes-from-semtech2009/
15:24:59 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:25:20 <ChrisW> action: Dave to announce to hp internal and jena-dev
15:25:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-860 - Announce to hp internal and jena-dev [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:25:51 <ChrisW> action: gary to announce inside oracle, drules, jess
15:25:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-861 - Announce inside oracle, drules, jess [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-07-14].
15:28:04 <Harold> Alexandre Riazanov: http://www.freewebs.com/riazanov/
15:28:44 <Harold> Chris: Flora-2 test case where equality is incomplete?
15:29:04 <ChrisW> action: mkifer to devise a "deep" equality test case
15:29:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-862 - Devise a "deep" equality test case [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-07-14].
15:29:07 <Harold> Michael: Subsitutivity for functions on 2nd or 3rd level.
15:30:16 <Harold> Dave: Still an option to implement Core.
15:30:32 <Harold> ... Not guaranteed, at the moment.
15:30:53 <Harold> Sandro: Trying a Core implementation and maybe beyond.
15:31:30 <Harold> Gary: Year-old prototype for PRD; will bring that translator from/to Oracle Business Rules up to date.
15:32:31 <Harold> Mike: As part of Vulcan work on Silk will do BLD and (hyper-)non-mon extensions.
15:32:50 <Harold> ... Translators between Silk and BLD.
15:34:04 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:34:07 <Harold> Sandro: How can we bring other rules people (who were not active in RIF) into RIF?
15:34:20 <Harold> ... Vendors? Motivational trade-offs?
15:34:35 <Harold> ... Why interested (or not)?
15:35:06 <Harold> Chris: What about a press release, introductory letter?
15:35:34 <Harold> Sandro: When going to CR, there will be official Call for Implementations.
15:36:05 <Harold> ... Meanwhile think about RIF being almost done: Hey have a look at it.
15:36:28 <Harold> s/RIF being/RIF as being/
15:36:44 <Harold> Chris: Mailing lists etc.
15:37:35 <Harold> Sandro: Ironically, first target would be RIF membership list, but it's not easy to mail there.
15:38:12 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=38457&order=org
15:40:07 <ChrisW> action: sandro to contact Jos de Roo
15:40:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-863 - Contact Jos de Roo [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
15:41:48 <Harold> ACTION: Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) to Sandro
15:41:48 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Contact
15:42:18 <Harold> ACTION: Sandro to Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic)
15:42:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-864 - Contact Doug Lenat (Cleveland Clinic) [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
15:42:35 <Harold> ACTION: Chris to contact Minsu Cheng
15:42:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-865 - Contact Minsu Cheng [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:43:55 <Harold> ACTION: Dave to contact  Markas?
15:43:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-866 - Contact  Markas? [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:44:31 <Harold> ACTION: Chris to contact Luis Polo.
15:44:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-867 - Contact Luis Polo. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:44:47 <Harold> ACTION: Harold to contact  Michael Sintek
15:44:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-868 - Contact  Michael Sintek [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:45:54 <Harold> ACTION: Dave to contact  Giorgos
15:45:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-869 - Contact  Giorgos [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:46:12 <Harold> ACTION: Sandro to contact MOC
15:46:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-870 - Contact MOC [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
15:46:55 <Harold> ACTION: Chris to contact NCSR.
15:46:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-871 - Contact NCSR. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:47:29 <Harold> ACTION: Harold to contact Igor Mozetic.
15:47:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-872 - Contact Igor Mozetic. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:47:50 <Harold> ACTION: Chris to contact Leo Obrst.
15:47:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-873 - Contact Leo Obrst. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:48:23 <Harold> ACTION: Harold to contact Guido Governatori.
15:48:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-874 - Contact Guido Governatori. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:48:39 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:49:06 <Harold> ACTION: Leora to contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer).
15:49:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-875 - Contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer). [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].
15:49:39 <Harold> ACTION: Harold to contact Said Tabet.
15:49:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-876 - Contact Said Tabet. [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:49:51 <Harold> ACTION: Chris to contact William Andersen.
15:49:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-877 - Contact William Andersen. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:50:07 <Harold> ACTION: Chris to contact Elisa Kendall.
15:50:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-878 - Contact Elisa Kendall. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:50:26 <Harold> ACTION: Mike to contact SRI.
15:50:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-879 - Contact SRI. [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].
15:51:12 <Zakim> +Christian
15:51:20 <Harold> ACTION: Mike to contact David Jones (Boeing).
15:51:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-880 - Contact David Jones (Boeing). [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].
15:51:26 <csma> zakim, christian is me
15:51:26 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:51:51 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:51:51 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:52:11 <Harold> ACTION: Dave to contact Aberdeen colleagues.
15:52:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-881 - Contact Aberdeen colleagues. [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:52:46 <Harold> ACTION: Chris to contact University of Innsbruck.
15:52:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-882 - Contact University of Innsbruck. [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-07-14].
15:53:35 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2004/12/rules-ws/registered
15:53:45 <Harold> Sandro: Attendee list of that Workshop could be used, too.
15:54:01 <Harold> ... Using their Position Papers.
15:54:20 <Harold> Chris: More ideas, especially companies?
15:54:31 <Harold> ... Production rules vendors?
15:54:58 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FAQ
15:55:55 <Harold> Chris: Need reviews of the FAQ by all.
15:56:06 <Harold> ... Some questions have not answers yet.
15:56:30 <ChrisW> action: mike to answer FAQ 3.7
15:56:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-883 - Answer FAQ 3.7 [on Mike Dean - due 2009-07-14].
15:56:42 <ChrisW> action: harold to answer FAQ 3.6
15:56:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-884 - Answer FAQ 3.6 [on Harold Boley - due 2009-07-14].
15:56:46 <Harold> Mike: Take RIF and SWRL.
15:57:13 <Harold> Dave: Take RDF.
15:57:40 <ChrisW> action: dave to answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL
15:57:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-885 - Answer FAQ 3.2-3.3 and 3.5 for RL [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-07-14].
15:57:51 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma (muted)
15:58:31 <csma> Chris, I see that you have an action to contact Luis-Polo: I will meet him tomorrow, so I can take the action
15:59:18 <ChrisW> action: stella to answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4
15:59:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-886 - Answer FAQ 4.3 - 4.4 [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-07-14].
15:59:55 <ChrisW> action: leora to answer FAQ 4.2
15:59:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-887 - Answer FAQ 4.2 [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-07-14].
16:00:30 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:00:45 <ChrisW> action: gary to answer FAQ 4.3
16:00:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-888 - Answer FAQ 4.3 [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-07-14].
16:01:06 <ChrisW> action: stella to answer FAQ 4.1
16:01:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-889 - Answer FAQ 4.1 [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-07-14].
16:01:27 <csma> yes
16:01:50 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:01:50 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:02:16 <ChrisW> action: csma to answer FAQ 3.8
16:02:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-890 - Answer FAQ 3.8 [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-07-14].
16:03:09 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:03:09 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:05:16 <Harold> Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant
16:05:17 <Harold> RIF Core document
16:05:17 <Harold> --for legal reasons we should not confine it to Core-->
16:05:17 <Harold> Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant
16:05:17 <Harold> RIF document
16:06:16 <sandro> "Complete processing of a RIF document, even a conformant RIF Core document, may require arbitrarily great CPU and memory resources."
16:08:52 <sandro> action: sandro to post media-type registration to IETF lists
16:08:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-891 - Post media-type registration to IETF lists [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-07-14].
16:09:01 <sandro> agenda?
16:09:36 <sandro> topic: Test Cases
16:09:47 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership
16:10:05 <Harold> Dialect	BLD
16:10:05 <Harold> -->
16:10:05 <Harold> Dialect	Core
16:10:05 <Harold> This test cases defines a rule that represents an "isFatherOf" relation between male family members. It uses RIF class memberships to test if a family member is of the class "Male" .
16:10:05 <Harold> -->
16:10:07 <Harold> This test cases defines rules that represents an "isFatherOf" relation as a male parent of a son or daughter. It uses RIF class memberships to test if a parent is in the class "Male".
16:10:10 <Harold>  Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isSonOf(?X ?Y) ?X#fam:Male ?Y#fam:Male )
16:10:12 <Harold>   ) 
16:10:14 <Harold> -->
16:10:16 <Harold>  Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isSonOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male )
16:10:18 <Harold>   ) 
16:10:21 <Harold>  Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isDaughterOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male )
16:10:22 <Harold>   ) 
16:12:07 <Harold> Forall ?X ?Y ( fam:isFatherOf(?Y ?X) :- And (fam:isChildOf(?X ?Y) ?Y#fam:Male ) )
16:16:44 <csma> that's why # is allowed in a conclusion only for New frame objects, in PRD
16:17:00 <Harold> Gary: We know that membership facts are not allowed Core and PRD when we deigned them.
16:17:17 <Harold> s/allowed Core/allowed in Core/
16:17:42 <Gary> I argued that membership facts but not conclusions be allowed...
16:17:49 <Harold> PROPOSED: Approve testcase class membership?
16:17:58 <sandro> PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership 
16:18:16 <Gary> +1
16:18:20 <Harold> APPROVED: Approve testcase class approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership 
16:18:24 <sandro> RESOLVED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Class_Membership 
16:18:31 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:18:58 <Harold> Description	Demonstrates how to use frame representation in RIF BLD.
16:18:58 <Harold> -->
16:18:58 <Harold> Description	Demonstrates how to use frame representation in RIF-Core.
16:18:58 <Harold> ex:customer
16:18:58 <Harold> --everywhere-->
16:18:59 <Harold> ex:customer0017
16:20:05 <Zakim> -csma
16:20:39 <Harold> LeoraL Changing ex:customer to ex:customer0017 would affect many other examples Adrian has done (eg Assert and Retract).
16:20:57 <Harold> s/LeoraL/Leora:/
16:21:50 <Harold> Sandro: Not sure about the ?Name variable.
16:22:06 <Harold> ... Facts and conclusions can remain the same.
16:22:22 <Harold> ... But ?Name suggests something misleading.
16:22:48 <Harold> Chris: Right, totally useless example.
16:23:09 <Harold> Gary: Delete, as Sandro proposed.
16:23:25 <csma> csma has joined #rif
16:23:51 <Harold> Chris: Rule applies only to one customer, like in business was done in the old days.
16:23:59 <csma> Bye
16:24:04 <csma> csma has left #rif
16:24:07 <Harold> s/ in business/ business/
16:25:05 <Harold> Leora: Maybe Adrian meant something we are not quite getting.
16:25:27 <Harold> Chris: Maybe because of successive changes.
16:25:55 <Harold> ... "Whatever the customer's ?Name is., ...".
16:26:15 <Harold> ... Maybe they change their ?Name often.
16:29:05 <sandro> PROPOSED: approve test case http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:29:17 <Harold> PROPOSED: Approve testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:29:17 <sandro> +1
16:29:21 <Harold> +1
16:29:23 <DaveReynolds> +1
16:29:30 <Gary> +1
16:29:38 <Harold> RESOLVED: Approve testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:29:49 <Harold> RESOLVED: testcase http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
16:31:18 <Zakim> -Gary
16:31:20 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:31:22 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:31:22 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:31:23 <Zakim> - +1.631.632.aabb
16:31:25 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:31:31 <sandro> Zakim, list attendees
16:31:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.802.264.aaaa, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma
16:31:39 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:31:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/07-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:31:44 <sandro> RRSAgent, make record public
16:31:58 <Zakim> -Harold
16:32:33 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
16:32:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro
16:34:24 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:34:26 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:34:27 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:34:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.802.264.aaaa, StellaMitchell, Harold, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, +1.631.632.aabb, DaveReynolds, Gary, csma