IRC log of xproc on 2009-07-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:57 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xproc
14:56:57 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-xproc-irc
14:57:00 [Norm]
Zakim, this will be xproc
14:57:00 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:32 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:57:33 [Norm]
Date: 7 July 2009
14:57:33 [Norm]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2009/07/02-agenda
14:57:33 [Norm]
Meeting: 148
14:57:33 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
14:57:33 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
14:57:35 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:00:04 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:00:09 [Zakim]
+Norm
15:00:51 [Zakim]
+[ArborText]
15:01:31 [Zakim]
+Vojtech
15:02:02 [MoZ]
MoZ has joined #xproc
15:06:04 [ht]
zajim, please call ht-781
15:06:28 [PGrosso]
s/zajim/zakim/
15:06:29 [ht]
Well, If ht could type . . .
15:06:29 [Norm]
Zakim, please call ht-781
15:06:29 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; the call is being made
15:06:31 [Zakim]
+Ht
15:06:54 [Norm]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:06:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Vojtech, Ht
15:07:04 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Paul, Vojtech, Henry
15:07:08 [Norm]
Regrets: Mohamed
15:07:15 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:07:15 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2009/07/02-agenda
15:07:18 [Norm]
Accepted
15:07:24 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:07:24 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2009/06/18-minutes
15:07:27 [Norm]
Accepted
15:07:33 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 9 June 2009
15:08:24 [Norm]
Unlikely to achieve quorem; cancelled.
15:08:36 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: 16 June 2009
15:08:49 [Norm]
s/June/July/g
15:09:13 [Norm]
Accepted
15:09:15 [PGrosso]
s/quorem/quorum/
15:09:31 [Norm]
Topic: Implicit outputs on p:pipeline/p:declare-step
15:09:35 [Norm]
Norm summarizes.
15:11:06 [Norm]
Norm: Actually, it doesn't apply to p:pipeline.
15:11:40 [Norm]
Vojtech: I don't like a default output port on p:declare-step because it's anonymous. But Henry suggested that we call it "result" and I think maybe that's ok.
15:12:27 [Norm]
Henry: I appreciate that the situation is complicated; but it seems like it catches the 80/20.
15:13:53 [Norm]
Vojtech: One thing I find weird. Suppose you have a declare-step in a library that has an implicit output; then you can't refer to it by name
15:14:04 [Norm]
Norm: That's fixed if we say the name is "result"
15:14:11 [Norm]
Vojtech: We say similar things about viewport.
15:14:35 [Norm]
...So it's not such a big deal. Saying the rule doesn't apply to p:declare-step is maybe a bigger change.
15:15:08 [Norm]
Norm: I can see advantage of keep the rule and naming it result.
15:16:26 [Norm]
...but then that's inconsistent unless we always say that the implicit output is named "result".
15:16:49 [Norm]
Henry: It's hard to guess which inconsistency is least likely to bite people.
15:17:39 [Norm]
...The inconsistency that I rejected is maybe not so bad.
15:18:11 [Norm]
...If what we're saying is that either you get full scale defaulting or you get none.
15:18:38 [Norm]
...If you need, for good reasons to change it from pipeline to declare step, you're going to have to declare an input port so you might as well declare an output port at the same time.
15:19:26 [Norm]
...So we could say there's no defaulting on the way in or the way out.
15:20:07 [Norm]
1. We special case p:declare-step so that the implicit output port rule doesn't apply.
15:21:01 [Norm]
2. We don't do that, and then we have odd issues with ths anonymous port name
15:21:30 [Norm]
3. If we fix the odd issues by giving the port a name, then it's different because the other implicitly created ports don't have that name
15:23:26 [Norm]
4. We can fix that point by making the name always "result" in all cases.
15:25:38 [Norm]
Norm: My concern about 4 is that it can lead to less readable pipelines. Because users willb e able to refer to ports by name that are not explicitly named anywhere.
15:26:00 [Norm]
Henry: I'd be happier to go with 1 if we make at least some of our library examples use p:pipeline.
15:27:21 [Norm]
...We don't have any library examples, so I'm inclined toward 1.
15:27:38 [Norm]
Vojtech: It's my second favorite, but I can accept it.
15:28:03 [Norm]
...I don't like anonymous outputs, but maybe that's a personal issue.
15:28:12 [Norm]
Henry: Maybe we should put this in countdown for a week.
15:29:10 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, I'll highlight this tentative decision and give folks two weeks to push back.
15:30:10 [Norm]
Topic: Escaping in p:escape-markup
15:30:20 [Norm]
Norm: This is CR#135.
15:30:23 [Norm]
Norm summarizes.
15:30:31 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/11/cr-comments/
15:33:19 [Norm]
Norm: We could change the spec to say what is escaped, but I think that would be a bit weird.
15:33:30 [Norm]
Norm: Anyone want to argue for a change here?
15:33:52 [Norm]
Paul: Let's stay away.
15:34:49 [Norm]
Henry: What does serialization say?
15:35:12 [Norm]
Norm: Oh, right. This isn't about unescape markup at all. All unescape markup does is turn those characters into literal characters in the data model.
15:35:20 [Norm]
...This is all about serialization.
15:35:53 [Norm]
Henry: Serialization says that characters that must be escaped...must be escaped.
15:37:16 [Norm]
...Nothing else seems relevant. I don't think we need to say anything.
15:37:24 [Norm]
...Adding more requirements would be obnoxious.
15:37:38 [Norm]
Proposed: Close without action.
15:37:43 [Norm]
Accepted.
15:38:09 [Norm]
Topic: 137 Default value for omit-xml-declaration
15:38:35 [Norm]
Vojtech: I brought it up, but I don't think we need to do anything about it.
15:39:08 [Norm]
Henry: I've found, in general,that I'm more often irritated when I get it and didn't want it than vice versa.
15:39:49 [Norm]
Vojtech: I'm ok.
15:39:57 [Norm]
Proposal: Close without action.
15:40:02 [Norm]
Accepted.
15:40:14 [Norm]
Topic: Add encoding to p:data
15:40:17 [Norm]
Norm summarizes.
15:43:02 [Norm]
Vojtech: The way it is in the spec now, there are two or three possibilities about how the XQuery step handles the input.
15:43:07 [Norm]
...It's all based on the content-type information.
15:48:07 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, the question of whether or not p:xquery is ever allowed to base64 decode a chunk of data is open, but I still don't see a downside to adding the encoding information to the output of p:data
15:48:23 [Norm]
Vojtech: And we could say that steps are allowed to decode it
15:48:28 [Norm]
Norm: I'm not as sure about that anymore
15:48:36 [Norm]
Vojtech: It seems to be just XQuery
15:48:50 [Norm]
Norm: I'm willing to add that rule to XQuery; XQuery already has a weird bunch of rules.
15:49:22 [Norm]
Proposal: Add [c:]encoding to the output of p:data.
15:50:02 [Norm]
Accepted.
15:52:17 [Norm]
Proposal: Add a new rule to the p:xquery step that says it can base64 decode c:data content
15:52:27 [Norm]
...if it's encoded.
15:52:53 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to proposal the exact text of the new rule for p:xquery that can base64 decode
15:53:11 [Norm]
We'll come back to this in two weeks as well.
15:53:15 [Norm]
Zakim, mute henry
15:53:15 [Zakim]
sorry, Norm, I do not know which phone connection belongs to henry
15:53:18 [Norm]
Zakim, mute ht
15:53:18 [Zakim]
Ht should now be muted
15:53:56 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business
15:54:02 [Norm]
Zakim, unmute ht
15:54:02 [Zakim]
Ht should no longer be muted
15:54:23 [Norm]
None heard.
15:54:28 [Norm]
Adjourned; talk to you all in two weeks.
15:54:36 [Zakim]
-Vojtech
15:54:39 [Zakim]
-Norm
15:54:39 [Zakim]
-PGrosso
15:54:40 [Norm]
RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
15:54:42 [Zakim]
-Ht
15:54:42 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
15:54:43 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, PGrosso, Vojtech, Ht
15:54:44 [Norm]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:54:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-xproc-minutes.html Norm
15:56:29 [PGrosso]
PGrosso has left #xproc