21:08:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
21:08:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-webapps-irc
21:08:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
21:08:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webapps
21:08:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAPP
21:08:50 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
21:08:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
21:08:51 <trackbot> Date: 01 July 2009
21:09:16 <shepazu> Zakim, this will be DOM3
21:09:16 <Zakim> ok, shepazu, I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM already started
21:09:30 <Zakim> +Shepazu
21:09:36 <dand> Is it the same # as before i guess?
21:09:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:10:02 <shepazu> zakim, code?
21:10:02 <Zakim> the conference code is 3663 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
21:10:13 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
21:10:13 <Zakim> +smaug; got it
21:10:28 <dand> cheers
21:10:55 <Zakim> +??P11
21:11:26 <shepazu> Zakim, ??P11 is dand 
21:11:26 <Zakim> +dand; got it
21:13:16 <shepazu> scribenick: shepazu 
21:13:49 <shepazu> Topic: mutation events
21:14:13 <shepazu> shepazu: there's been traffic on the list about testing mutation event speed
21:14:35 <shepazu> ... useful info, but not directly actionable
21:14:55 <shepazu> Topic: Events and Quirks Mode
21:15:32 <shepazu> MSjacob: I wanted to hear feedback from implementers if there is special casing for quirks mode wrt events
21:15:51 <shepazu> smaug: I don't know of any special casing in Gecko
21:16:00 <shepazu> ... does IE
21:16:17 <shepazu> MSjacob: not currently
21:16:43 <shepazu> Travis: we're working out our general compat story for IE9
21:17:20 <shepazu> ... good to know we don't have to worry about any special casing
21:17:27 <shepazu> Topic: IME
21:17:46 <shepazu> dand: still waiting on feedback from chromium guy
21:18:44 <shepazu> shepazu: there was discussion on the mailing list from Nakano-san
21:19:10 <shepazu> dand: that's more to do with positioning the IME window, not necessarily related to events
21:19:33 <shepazu> shepazu: yes, good discussion to have, but not necessarily stuff that needs to be in the D3E spec
21:21:19 <shepazu> Topic: native selection
21:21:34 <shepazu> dand: when you select text in a browser in an editable or non-editable regions, it would be nice to have selection events
21:22:21 <shepazu> Travis: good question, not sure what HTML5 has added for editing events
21:22:36 <Hixie> nothing added for editing events so far
21:23:14 <shepazu> ... IE does have some selection events, which we aren't particularly proud of...
21:23:22 <Hixie> mostly i've been waiting to see what happens with mutation events and whether anyone makes any proposals (the chrome team in particular has indicated they have some proposals they want to make this quarter regarding editing apis and events)
21:23:28 <Hixie> hth
21:23:50 <shepazu> ... we have onselectstart and onselectchange, which do mostly the same thing
21:24:45 <shepazu> ... Mozilla has onselect that fires when you are done selecting, which IE doesn't have, but we really want it
21:25:04 <shepazu> ... selectionchange is interesting, but unintuitive
21:25:16 <dand> @hixie, thanks. maybe i'll bring an idea they had up now after the selection conversation
21:25:45 <shepazu> Travis: I'm not sure DOM3 Events is the right place for these, might be better in HTML5
21:26:52 <shepazu> Travis: my rationale is that D3E focuses on DOM changes, while HTML has more editing stuff
21:26:59 <shepazu> dand: what about key events
21:27:54 <shepazu> Travis: we could put the selection events in D3E, but there's a lot of editing prose in HTML5, and there would need to be close coordination
21:28:34 <shepazu> ... but my chief concern is that we want to finish DOM3 Events quickly, so I'd hesitate to add new stuff to it
21:28:42 <shepazu> shepazu: I agree
21:31:36 <shepazu> Topic: Review of DOM3 Events
21:32:08 <shepazu> shepazu: I really want to move to LC as soon as possible...
21:32:20 <shepazu> shepazu: please send in all actionable comments about the DOM3 Events spec, and I will make those edits
21:32:39 <shepazu> action: smaug to comment on D3E
21:32:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-373 - Comment on D3E [on Olli Pettay - due 2009-07-08].
21:32:50 <shepazu> action: Travis to comment on D3E
21:32:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-374 - Comment on D3E [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-07-08].
21:32:56 <shepazu> action: MSjacob to comment on D3E
21:32:56 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - MSjacob
21:35:38 <shepazu> Topic: onbeforeinput
21:36:46 <shepazu> dand: we're experimenting with this in Chrome
21:37:17 <shepazu> s/experimenting/discussing this/
21:39:40 <shepazu> ... one of the problems with contenteditable is that user-triggered actions only in generic mutations events, not reflecting the user intent
21:39:57 <shepazu> ... I'll write up a more detailed explanation
21:40:27 <shepazu> smaug: what about paste and drag and other UI events?
21:41:19 <shepazu> dand: yes, you end up having to listen to a large number of events that are irrelevant
21:41:21 <shepazu> Travis: are you looking to have something that notifies you after the change has occurred
21:41:59 <shepazu> dand: it would be good to find out that something is about to happen, then after it is ended
21:42:34 <shepazu> ... I think we can cover most of the existing mutation event use cases
21:43:15 <shepazu> ... it would tell you that something happened, and why it happened (paste, undo, etc.)
21:43:39 <shepazu> ... I know there is something similar in HTML5
21:43:49 <shepazu> smaug: even hixie is not fond of that
21:44:05 <Hixie> what am i not fond of? :-)
21:45:11 <MSjacob> @hixie: events similar to undo in the HTML5 spec
21:45:18 <smaug> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#undo
21:45:23 <shepazu> s/that/the HTML5 writeup for undo, etc./
21:45:24 <smaug> Hixie: UndoManager 
21:45:45 <Hixie> yeah i'm no fan of the undo manager
21:46:30 <shepazu> Travis: if I knew that I was listening to a text input event, I could intercept, say, drop events
21:47:03 <shepazu> ... this becomes less useful when complex editing behavior is defined, but still may be useful
21:49:00 <shepazu> dand: do people think it's a good idea to account for all events that arise from user interaction with the page?
21:50:00 <shepazu> Travis: yes, we should have a clear motivation for each event, and explain all the results of user interactions
21:50:42 <shepazu> ... a guiding principle behind when you would want to use any particular event
21:51:28 <shepazu> action: Travis to start writeup of guiding principles for event usage
21:51:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-375 - Start writeup of guiding principles for event usage [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-07-08].
21:54:41 <shepazu> dand: I'd like to see those principles
21:55:39 <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
21:55:39 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:55:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [Microsoft], Shepazu, smaug, dand
21:55:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:55:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
21:55:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:55:41 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-webapps-actions.rdf :
21:55:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: smaug to comment on D3E [1]
21:55:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-webapps-irc#T21-32-39
21:55:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Travis to comment on D3E [2]
21:55:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-webapps-irc#T21-32-50
21:55:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: MSjacob to comment on D3E [3]
21:55:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-webapps-irc#T21-32-56
21:55:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Travis to start writeup of guiding principles for event usage [4]
21:55:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-webapps-irc#T21-51-28
21:55:43 <Zakim> -smaug
21:55:45 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:55:56 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:55:57 <Zakim> -dand
21:55:57 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM has ended
21:55:58 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Shepazu, smaug, dand