*** Topic on #swxg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Jun/0097.html + +0122333aacc *** DKA (3ed5824a@64.62.228.82) joined #swxg at 09:01AM zakim, mute me mattroweshow should now be muted zakim, ??P20 is me +mischat; got it +jsalvachua zakim mute me Chair: DKA * caribou zakim, call carine-617 * Zakim ok, caribou; the call is being made +Carine +cperey * mischat waves zakim mute me Scribe: Carine +??P10 scribenick: caribou Zakim, ??P10 is hhalpin +hhalpin; got it zakim, mute me cperey should now be muted +Lalana regrets: Hakan, PeterF, bblfish * hhalpin so shall we start the meeting? Topic: Convene, Approval of last week's minute s/minute/minutes *** lkagal (lkagal@66.171.68.173) joined #swxg at 09:04AM PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 24 June 2009 as a true record +1 +1 RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 24 June 2009 as a true record *** MacTed (Thud@63.119.36.36) joined #swxg at 09:05AM PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 8th July Minutes are here BTW - http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html Topic: General Organization - Actions RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 8th of July +OpenLink_Software Zakim, mute me sorry, MacTed, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ACTION: bblfish and hhalpin to write up kaliya's talk for future report * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. Created ACTION-47 - And hhalpin to write up kaliya's talk for future report [on Henry Story - due 2009-07-08]. Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed +MacTed; got it [PENDING] Zakim, mute me MacTed should now be muted DKA: Do we endorse the Identity Commons Purpose and Principles? http://wiki.idcommons.net/Purpose_And_Principles +1 sounds good (as principles) +1 from me too The only issue is that we're not a long-standing group. Self-organization? +1 hhalpin: I don't know what that means * jsalvachua freescale groups? :) hhalpin: I mostly agree with the principles PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The SWXG supports and endorses the Identity Commons purposes and principles; we share these principles as part of the core values of our effort. ... but we should be clear that we do have a charter perhaps we could be back to the ID commons s/be/feed/ +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 * Zakim hears +0122333aacc's hand up * Zakim sees +0122333aacc on the speaker queue +1 +1 RESOLUTION: The SWXG supports and endorses the Identity Commons purposes and principles; we share these principles as part of the core values of our effort. +1 RESOLUTION: The SWXG supports and endorses the Identity Commons purposes and principles; we share these principles as part of the core values of our effort * caribou too slow :/ ACTION: hhalpin to send e-mail to id commons saying we endorse their principles, have a link to us * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. Created ACTION-48 - Send e-mail to id commons saying we endorse their principles, have a link to us [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-07-08]. http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/RequirementsAndUseCases [DONE] ACTION: hhalpin to create draft use-case document in W3C cvs [CONTINUES] ACTION: danbri follow up re whether to use survey tool at w3c or elsewhere +1 +1 +1 It's just a form without content, but it does look pretty and shows you can edit a full W3C spec using a wiki. +1 +1 yes, Harry, i think that was the spirit/intent zakim, who is making noise ? The audience of the survey is non-W3C member. mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (4%) or surveying businesses which are NOT currently part of W3C DKA: if we want to do survey, it makes sense to use the W3C tool It's a survey of *non*-members ... but beyond the WG, another tool would be easier yes, makes sense yes, makes sense to me. I use surey gizmo WBS has capability for public questionnaires, AFAIK surveygizmo.com are we intending to send these surveys to end users or to service providers ? zakim, unmute me cperey should no longer be muted * hhalpin looks nice Christine: I use surveygizmo, it's free, lots of reporting capabilities sounds like an endorsement to me ... very flexible Another one Techcrunch seems to be using: Polldaddy.com Since Christine is probably going to taking the lead on the survey, then I'd say survey gizmo is right. ah hah! :) PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We'll use internal WBS tool for internal W3C polls, we'll use some tbd external system (e.g. surveymonkey, surveygizmo) to do external surveys. Sounds good to me. +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 zakim, mute me cperey should now be muted +1 +kaliya +1 RESOLUTION: We'll use internal WBS tool for internal W3C polls, we'll use some tbd external system (e.g. surveymonkey, surveygizmo) to do external surveys. Topic: User Stories i wish user stories were called use cases tpa? [CONTINUES] ACTION: tpa to W3C-style "edit" user stories can someone past the URI to the wiki page with user stories? paste! Tim: not much to say, first round of editing done http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories ... transformed in templates, people should fill in blanks ... we may allow more time for adding more stories i have a couple i could add s/CONTINUES/DONE I think it needs to be expanded DKA: it seems that we need more material *** oshani (oshani@128.31.35.209) joined #swxg at 09:21AM what about having use cases be an item in the survey? Oshani and I came up with some we think are interesting q+ * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, tpa on the speaker queue i am happy to go through / edit the Privacy and Context one subsection, we will see if have any use cases in Garlik with we use to protect our customers privacy ack tpa * Zakim sees +0122333aacc on the speaker queue s/one// question on survey: rank these use cases? are there any use cases missing? what about stories of the past? DKA: there are stories about the present and about the future I like the idea of prioritisation - this could be an internal survey at first. s/prioritisation/prioritization s/DKA/Tim there are good stories around Jennifer Rigley and context +MIT531 in the past +1 on noticing "future" vs "past" issue * oshani Zakim, MIT531 is me * Zakim +oshani; got it * oshani Zakim, mute me * Zakim oshani should now be muted yes, prioritization can we just add metadata describing the type of use case? +1 DKA: maybe we want to let more user stories be added before prioritization I still have one user story I need to add. close ACTION-19 * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-19. ACTION-19 Document developer stories on wiki. closed maybe generate more cases first before prioritization. q+ * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, tpa on the speaker queue I like adding some metadata to the general template (suggestion by ron) *** Adam (824c600f@64.62.228.82) joined #swxg at 09:24AM ack tpa * Zakim sees +0122333aacc on the speaker queue DKA: anybody who wants to add a story can take an action we could add metadata to the stories ACTION-42? * trackbot getting information on ACTION-42 ACTION-42 -- Toby Inkster to document danbri's microblogging provenance question as a user story. -- due 2009-06-24 -- OPEN http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/42 Ill take an action to add a usecase unless Oshani wants it Tim: talk in a week or two when we have more stories can we add to the template an element about the user's device/access network? or do we assume that all are PC + mobile access? cperey: good point cperey: basically we don't have any stories that hinge upon differences in access but would it not be valuable for there to be such differences? i dont know how to action on myself s/cperey:/cperey,/ s/cperey:/cperey,/ ACTION: tpa to look for similar use cases list to expand ours * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. Sorry, couldn't find user - tpa zakim, unmute me cperey should no longer be muted Christine:In the template, can we note if it is assumed that the service is accessed by PC or mobile DKA: "is it a use case primarily in mobile?" should we define what is meant by mobile vs PC?, like the criteria cperey just mentioned ... I'd not categorize as PC vs. Mobile ok, then let's just add metadata. yeah pre-conditions ... mobile environnement vs. "desk" perhaps could be scenario with a moblie part on it Christine: "this user is mobile" * Cloud has to go, sorry -??P2 * Zakim hears +0122333aacc's hand up * Zakim sees +0122333aacc on the speaker queue +1 cperey ... before we edit stories, add it to the template zakim, mute me cperey should now be muted q+ * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, tpa on the speaker queue XXX: it's more about which data is available ... e.g. location but would bandwidth be the "quality of the data"? who was speaking ? Maybe that should be the beginning of a user story - i.e. why don't we have the same information available whether mobile or otherwise? quality of data seems ambiguous to me? ... conditions in which the network is accessed i think the possible preconditions might be enumerated ff 3.5 gives geolocation hehe context could be "I'm in call" that's probably something that phone (device) knows but a PC does not DKA: it's becoming an increasingly fuzzy distinction you can be on a call on skype your PC could know that but isn't it our responsiblity to clarify its defnition? * danbri is in ascii today only now, sorry * Zakim hears +0122333aacc's hand up * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, tpa on the speaker queue ... we should have something in the template haha! who is speaking? :) ? XXX: I agree, browsers everywhere, not only on PC but would bandwidth be the "quality of the data"? yes, I agree can we please get the name of speaker? ... differences in data transmission (badnwidth, security...) I would like to work/collaborate on that with someone else bandwidth is variable zakim, who is making noise ? s/badnwidth/bandwidth mischat, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds I would like to collaborate on additional definition on template for use cases * caribou hey, who's taking the action, then? ? my phone switches between networks everywhere i go thereby giving me different bandwidth all the time to clarify use case mobile/fixed * caribou notes silence over the phone, lots of people scribbling here .... Notice that we're already 30 minutes in.... Ronald Reck im muted I will be happy to work with Ron on this. Misha spoke? me ? no i wasn't speaking the person sounded germna german to me ok, thanks for clarifcation ah!! thank you! s/XXX/Soren s/XXX/Soren I am happy to assist/collaborate but no actions for me agreed :-) I'm learning ACTION: Sören to propose addition to the template for user stories for conditions * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. Sorry, couldn't find user - Sören happy to leave them danbri not on call, but on IRC. I can suggest some another speaker Danbri do you have someone from Opera to talk about widgets? Eran Hammer-Lahav OASIS XRDS-Simple Now called "XRD" IIRC. harry, can you please adjust your microphone/mouth piece? better Topic: Invited Guest Invitations XRIs ? LRDD Update (Resource Descriptor Discovery) they are they used in OAuth endpoints ..how relevant to SWXG? HTTP and HTML. Link Headers and Link elements in HTML. hhalpin: we need a standardised way to discover info about someone on the web it is used in Oauth and in openid, as far as i am aware Mischa - what's your opinion of XRD-Simple implementations? I can report on this XRDS is in OpenID 2, but not 1.x. XRD/XRDS-Simple is not. Kaliya?: XRDS is part of OpenID spec * DKA thinks that was kaliya. agree 100% excellent some quick overview: http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2009/03/the-discovery-protocol-stack.html and the internet draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hammer-discovery-03 privacy jungle +1 DKA, re opera people ... yes once we send a formal invite... should i just invite an agenda topic and invite them? ie. it's agreed in principle and definite interest move ahead go Soren/Joseph but they want to see exact topics before deciding who to send and when ACTION: hhalpin to contact eran to talk, also about LRDD. * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it. Created ACTION-50 - Contact eran to talk, also about LRDD. [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-07-08]. danbri - I just thought Eran could explain hook up between LRDD and XRD/XRD-Simple +1 DKA: we need to articulate why openness is good for social network business good for businesses +1 :) sure. am talking re opera action only Since he is already actively seeking comments on it. ... I'd like to take the resolution that we will work on that Oh, I thought opera action was based on w3c widgets/open social compatibility yes I've posted to the mailing list ... if we want to convince people of the relevance of the work and also bring industry people to the group Michael Hausenblas (DERI) is also pretty interested/informed on LRDD/XRD/etc. it would be nice if there was work item which is focusing on why good for business Topic: Privacy Jungle -mattroweshow http://preibusch.de/publications/social_networks/privacy_jungle_dataset.htm agree... soren: if we look at alexa, it's unclear if it's social networking sites blogging service is that a socialnetwork? soren: stripped it down to 45 sites, got rid of site not in English as we can't discover then. i dont we why not, you have trackbacks I agree with this premise 100% s/we/see/ Soren: only sites where you can make friends on the site http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol13/issue1/boyd.ellison.html -kaliya IMHO, the paper is very impressive +1 rreck social networking platforms= white label social networking servers quick question - why exclude content-sharing sites like Flickr? +1 rreck too user counts unreliable Joseph: some sites that claim to be "leading" sites are not good question hhalpin I wonder if Joe and Soren are on the IRC maybe not. it doesnt seem like they are i hadnt even thought of that Joseph: statistical data about social networks given to advertisers seems more reliable than data given in press releases and to general public. ... categories for the sites: languages, metadata, data collected, privacy controls offered to users ... key aspects of privacy policy of the sites "advertise on us" links or sites put through "advertising networks" ZZZ: how did you access this info? (number of users...) Joseph: fact sheets or surveys *** Signoff: danbri (Quit: danbri) +kaliya Joseph: we could have included flickr ... their main use cases is vacation pictures to be shared with friends ... you can consider a site to be a SN depending on how people use it ... it's hard to draw a line and there could be more user populations on any service Joseph: the research in privacy is not new, and the lock-in effect has existed before ... e.g. Amazon ... in SN it's worse because there are all your friends and they would not follow you if you change Hopefully you'd just lose your links to your friends - you wouldn't actually lose all your friends. agree with this definition of lock-in effects of services ... Users can't take data to another network Joseph: sites do not promote privacy as an argument on the front page +1 on that this is a problem +1 for sure +1 * caribou does not scribe spanish zakim, who is making noise I don't understand 'who is making noise', mischat problem but the user education is not there i think they are pandering to the lowest common denominator I think "privacy as an argument on the front page" will chase some users away Joseph: it's not that it is not mentioned at all. You can still dig up a privacy policy ... they claim how good their practices are i think Soren is speaking now ... sites communicate on privacy depending on the targeted audience i think this means ->privacy doesnt sell :) q+ * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, tpa, mischat on the speaker queue q- * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, mischat on the speaker queue zakim, unmute me mischat was not muted, mischat this was very useful stuff I think we should keep going but people can leave... q+ * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, mischat, hhalpin on the speaker queue ack 012 * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, mischat, hhalpin on the speaker queue ack +0123 * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, mischat, hhalpin on the speaker queue ack aacc * Zakim sees +0122333aacc, mischat, hhalpin on the speaker queue great question ack barf Mischa: did you study what happens when you delete info from the sites? ... e.g. if data is really removed? Joseph: most sites don't claim they will remove the data ... some sites do it partially, but most sites don't make any claim how does Joe conduct this research? Mischa: EU regulations? govt regulations? maybe jump on the question queue cperey * DKA actually has to leave the call unfortunately but I will hold the chairing batton to Harry for the overtime session. Joseph: experiment on photos, they are still there *** Signoff: mattroweshow (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) Chair: HHalpin ... some sites outsource the photos hosting -DKA ... to delivery networks ... myspace uses akamai No problem DKA s/myspace/facebook *** DKA (3ed5824a@64.62.228.82) left #swxg at 10:05AM ... so if you delete the photo on Facebook, the photo might be available for 30 days after i concur 30 days is not reasonable ... privacy policy says "it will be deleted after a reasonable period of time" ... the UK data protection act and EU data protection directive lay out things ... it is questionnable if 30 days would be ok Mischa: Do they tell if data will be sent to other countries for storage? Joseph: No. The "content delivery network" is under their control, they have the master copy, but the rest is unknown ... once a photo has been seen in the UK from the akamai, there's local caching ... it's a huge grey area legally Joseph: the larger sites are the tip of the iceberg in privacy practices ... the smaller sites often started with bad privacy Zakim, ack hhalpin I see +0122333aacc, mischat on the speaker queue Zakim, ack aacc I see +0122333aacc, mischat on the speaker queue zakim, mute me mischat should now be muted q- * Zakim sees +0122333aacc on the speaker queue been interesting, very good work, we should build on this. Zakim, ack +0122333aacc I see no one on the speaker queue dito in orkut is massive in iran too ++ to what Joe is saying about a broad view of what social networking should be defined. Great deal of diversity our responsibility is to have broad view bye all bye bye