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08:44:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-irc
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08:45:52 <danbri> danbri has changed the topic to: Dagstuhl 2009 - vocab management etc breakout discussion
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08:46:01 <danbri> rrsagent, please make logs public
08:46:19 <cerealtom> topic 1. vocab hosting and persistence
08:46:41 <cerealtom> re hosting there is the vocab hosting best practices document from swdbp
08:47:08 <cerealtom> re vocabulary alignments there are various developments...
08:48:10 <cerealtom> sorry, missed the details of the mentioned alignment work
08:48:33 <cerealtom> OMV: ontology metadata vocabulary
08:49:18 <cerealtom> re URI schemes...
08:49:24 <danbri> danbrI: I have a specific proposal on federating independent namespaces, dns risk reduction & long term persistence 
08:49:27 <cerealtom> sharedname.org
08:49:30 <cerealtom> purl.org
08:49:38 <cerealtom> (and associated purl software)
08:49:54 <cerealtom> danbri++ re dns risk reduction
08:50:21 <cerealtom> also the google vocab namespace
08:51:26 <cerealtom> lets not enumerate all of these right now
08:52:13 <cerealtom> question: is physical hosting an issue
08:52:14 <cerealtom> ?
08:52:25 <cerealtom> consensus: generally yes
08:53:05 <cerealtom> guus: are we just going to provide a list of existing services or develop some guidelines?
08:54:46 <cerealtom> now covering the state of the art wrt directory services for vocabs
08:54:58 <cerealtom> examples, swoogle, watson, falcons, talis schemacache
08:58:18 <cerealtom> guus: distinction: concept search (e.g watson/swoogle) vs schema search (schemacache)
08:59:49 <cerealtom> schemaweb.info is outdated and not maintained. schemacache needs to be pushed live
09:00:25 <cerealtom> schemacache current uri: http://schemacache.test.talis.com/
09:01:16 <cerealtom> crawling vs curation
09:02:17 <cerealtom> ivan points out there are some well used offerings in specific domains
09:02:42 <cerealtom> distinction: general offering versus domain dependent
09:02:49 <cerealtom> topic 3. versioning
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09:03:33 <cerealtom> publishing versioning histories for vocabs
09:03:39 <cerealtom> (says danbri)
09:04:54 <cerealtom> danbri mentions tom baker from DC
09:05:10 <cerealtom> "when did dc:audience appear?" all these aspects are recorded
09:05:46 <cerealtom> also cf the w3c document versioning scheme
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09:07:21 <cerealtom> danbri would like a mechanism for people to declare downstream dependencies on vocabularies
09:07:43 <cerealtom> ivan: its a hairy ie research problem, technical but also sociological
09:13:19 <ivan> -> http://openprovenance.org/ Open provenance model
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09:14:37 <cerealtom> also a need to revisit some of the named graphs work and provide some guidance
09:14:52 <cerealtom> ...to the community at large on usage of NG
09:15:11 <cerealtom> this was topic 4 (provenance) btw
09:15:38 <cerealtom> preventing man in the middle attacks is a good use case for signing vocabs with pgp
09:17:36 <cerealtom> research issue: robustness of vocabs and class hierarchies
09:17:41 <ivan> chris: falcon and others already have heuristics built in, ie, they reject statements that would define a superclass of foaf:Person
09:17:51 <cerealtom> and trust mechanisms to address this
09:18:30 <ivan> cerealtom: for rights, the legal works have been done at open data comons and cc0 at science commons
09:18:42 <ivan> ... active usage of this should be pushed
09:19:00 <ivan> danbri: that is mostly at data issues
09:19:43 <danbri> tom: many diff jurisdictions have diff approaches
09:19:48 <danbri> ...whether there's some notion of a db right
09:19:52 <danbri> ...diff legal frameworks
09:20:03 <danbri> ...for making legal claims, of ownerships over sets of data, collections etc
09:20:09 <danbri> ... see work from Jordan Hatchett
09:20:23 <danbri> ... one strategy: put all in public domain
09:20:29 <danbri> ... layer on that social norms
09:20:39 <danbri> ... statements and requests for how it is used
09:20:47 <danbri> ... most ppl want attribution for what they do
09:20:58 <danbri> .... typically dont want to chase that thru the lawcourts, but was some ack
09:21:12 <danbri> ... cc lets you waive formal rights but express social norms
09:21:24 <danbri> ... open data commons
09:21:44 <danbri> stefan: eg i'd like to make my data public, but not have it aggregated
09:22:05 <ivan> -> www.opendatacommons.org Open data commons' site
09:22:15 <danbri> danbri: see TAMI and respect my privacy work from MIT/DIG (note : Oshani is in SocialWeb XG ...)
09:22:41 <danbri> see http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2009/SocialWebPrivacy/
09:23:25 <danbri> tom: talis community license > odc
09:26:25 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:26:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
09:26:44 <danbri> rrsagent, make minutes public
09:26:44 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', danbri.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
09:28:54 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-irc
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09:36:48 <cerealtom> Federation of Independent Namespaces
09:37:15 <cerealtom> mutual back-watching for namespace hosts
09:37:25 <cerealtom> proposal from danbri and tom baker
09:44:35 <hhalpin> http://dublincore.org/documents/singapore-framework/
09:44:39 <hhalpin> Application profiles
09:45:44 <aldogan> whole range of practices from bare reuse of ontology entities from other namespaces, to owl:import
09:46:30 <aldogan> one intermediate practice is declaring a module of an ontology to be imported (this works for reasoning purposes)
09:46:55 <hhalpin> so you can think about this in two ways
09:47:01 <hhalpin> abstract space of possible combinations
09:47:15 <hhalpin> which subset of that on some level that can be characterized as graph patterns
09:47:18 <hhalpin> are good practices
09:47:23 <hhalpin> on a practical level:
09:47:43 <hhalpin> let's think about practical examples
09:47:48 <hhalpin> on an instance level
09:47:53 <hhalpin> that can be put in tutorials
09:48:55 <hhalpin> guus: alignments are just vocabularies that link.
09:49:16 <hhalpin> bizer; but you can have transformation rules rather than alignments via a common concept, ala SKOS
09:49:42 <hhalpin> transformation rules = data fusion
09:49:42 <ivan> ivan: there is also the issue of the granularity of terms within vocabularies, if I refer to a specific term, what else do I pull in
09:53:21 <hhalpin> how can alignments that are manually made
09:53:51 <hhalpin> rather than automatically made
09:53:55 <aldogan> is intensional vs. extensional alignments an issue here? or are we just discussing about publishing alignments?
09:53:56 <hhalpin> be found and used, and validated.
09:54:23 <hhalpin> I think intensional vs. extensional is vocabulary-dependent.
09:55:04 <hhalpin> research challenge: lack of semantics and semantics of alignment
09:55:36 <hhalpin> so you can figure out how to reason properly over aligned vocabularies (again, how much of another vocabulary do you pull in?)
09:55:57 <aldogan> owl:sameAs often used to map any kind of similarity
09:56:23 <aldogan> but this is on the social side, since owl:sameAs has a proper (extesional) semantics
09:56:31 <hhalpin> directory services make it hard to find alignments
09:56:57 <hhalpin> we need directory services for alignments and make it easier to find them, standard way to host, as well as who said what alignment and provenance of alignment.
09:59:10 <hhalpin> guus: named graphs may be a potentially a way to get alignments off the ground
09:59:27 <hhalpin> guus: is this a w3c challenge for named graphs?
10:00:07 <hhalpin> ivan: how can I make ANY inferences in a multi-namespace document?
10:00:26 <hhalpin> ivan: does current RDF-based semantics work in multi-namespace documents? Does DL?
10:00:34 <hhalpin> ivan: Probably for RDF(S), not for DL.
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11:09:15 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:09:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
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11:35:48 <ivan> -------
11:35:55 <ivan> Start of session again after lunch
11:36:34 <ivan> guus Trying to summarize the research challenges and relations to other groups
11:37:47 <ivan> * Semantics of alignment
11:37:57 <ivan> * language for publishing algnments
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11:38:18 <ivan> * characterizing graph patterns
11:39:42 <ivan> * internal and external dependencies across vocabularies 
11:40:32 <ivan> * ranking and characterizing directory services
11:42:33 <ivan> * inferences with multi-namespace vocabularies
11:45:34 <ivan> s/inferences with multi-namespace vocabularies/inference consequences of cherry-picking/
11:46:05 <aldogan> isn't the last a special case of the previous one?
11:48:42 <ivan> * quality criteria for ranking vocabularies and alignments
11:49:20 <ivan> s/ranking/ranking deployed/
11:49:50 <ivan> (forget the last one, rephrase:)
11:50:19 <ivan> * metrics for selecting deployed vocabularies and vocabulary elements
11:55:49 <hhalpin> asun: not every language expresses the same concepts
11:56:18 <ivan> * problems of multilingual vocabulary alignments
11:56:21 <hhalpin> asun: like different kinds of fishes exist in say Greek, not English.
11:56:33 <hhalpin> harry: but we need to encourage vocabulary schemas to have multiple languages.
11:57:08 <ivan> s/vocabulary//
11:57:38 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:57:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
12:02:11 <hhalpin> TAG's latest versioning:
12:02:12 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-html/
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12:05:00 <ivan> * vocabulary versioning in a distributed environments
12:08:16 <ivan> Slogan: do not delay the future
12:08:35 <ivan> * SW specific provenance models
12:09:09 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:09:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
12:09:25 <danbri> 3 or 4 strands that must be brought together: hacker/internet/crypto provenance, database provenance, logical formalism / kr scene (OWL, RIF, ...) .... and then the RDF/dataweb/web2 scene where the best we have is SPARQL graphs
12:14:36 <ivan> Topic: finding the top 5 research issues
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12:32:26 <danbri> my personal ranking of topics: 
12:32:31 <danbri> (this isn't private voting is it?)
12:32:31 <danbri> n2. graph patterns.
12:32:32 <danbri> n4. provenance models.
12:32:32 <danbri> n5. quality  metrics for selecting vocabs.
12:32:32 <danbri> n3. vocab dependencies and cherry picking.
12:32:32 <danbri> n1. semantics of alignments / alignment language.
12:32:34 <danbri> n6. multilingual vocabs.
12:37:09 <ivan> After due deliberations and semi-secret voting the result is as follows:
12:39:38 <natasha> Final list of research challenges
12:39:56 <natasha> 1. Quality metrics for selecting vocabularies and vocabulary elements
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12:41:41 <natasha> 2. Logical consequences from cherry picking vocabulary elements from distributed vocabularies
12:42:16 <natasha> 3. SW-specific provenance models
12:43:00 <natasha> 4. Semantics of alignments, including languages and models for publishing alignments
12:44:50 <natasha> 5. Characterizing graph patterns in published web data
12:46:52 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:46:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
12:51:13 <aldogan> 1. Semantics of alignments, including languages and models for publishing alignments
12:51:33 <aldogan> 2. vocab dependencies and cherry picking
12:51:49 <aldogan> 3. Quality metrics for selecting vocabularies and vocabulary elements
12:51:59 <aldogan> 4. provenance models
12:53:04 <aldogan> multilinguality and graph patterns are very important as well, uhm 
12:53:20 <aldogan> unsure how much overlap exists among the topics emerged however
12:59:38 <ivan> Topic: short term goals
12:59:47 <ivan> Subtopic: White paper
13:00:01 <ivan> guus outlining a structure
13:00:24 <ivan> - URI Scheme (PURL, etc)
13:00:34 <ivan> - Physical hosting, backup policies
13:01:03 <ivan> - Versioning strategy (current practice like W3C practice, DC practice)
13:02:13 <ivan> - DNS Redirect advices, examples, templates
13:03:28 <ivan> - minimal attribution metadata
13:04:52 <ivan> - link & advice with respect to ODC
13:05:16 <ivan> s/ODC/Open Data Commons/
13:08:59 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:08:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
13:09:23 <hhalpin> i am listening in IRC
13:09:27 <hhalpin> "listening" via text
13:27:20 <ivan> Topic: relationships to other groups
13:34:13 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:34:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-swdag2009-minutes.html ivan
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