IRC log of owl on 2009-07-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:58:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:58:47 [IanH]
zakim, this will be owl
16:58:47 [Zakim]
ok, IanH, I see SW_OWL()1:00PM already started
16:58:51 [ewallace]
16:59:02 [IanH]
IanH has changed the topic to:
16:59:12 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
16:59:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, Evan_Wallace
16:59:14 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
16:59:22 [IanH]
zakim, ??P0 is IanH
16:59:22 [Zakim]
+IanH; got it
16:59:26 [Zakim]
16:59:28 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
16:59:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see IanH, Evan_Wallace, zimmer
16:59:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
16:59:58 [Zakim]
17:00:05 [bmotik]
Zakim, ??P9 is me
17:00:06 [MarkusK_]
MarkusK_ has joined #owl
17:00:08 [Zakim]
+bmotik; got it
17:00:11 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:00:12 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:00:41 [Zakim]
17:00:45 [sandro]
sandro has joined #owl
17:00:51 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
17:00:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see IanH, Evan_Wallace, zimmer, bmotik (muted), MarkusK_
17:00:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sandro, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
17:01:12 [ewallace]
topic: admin
17:01:21 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
17:01:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see IanH, Evan_Wallace, zimmer, bmotik (muted), MarkusK_
17:01:23 [ewallace]
subtopic: roll call
17:01:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sandro, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
17:01:36 [ewallace]
subtopic: agenda amendments
17:01:37 [ewallace]
17:01:38 [Zakim]
17:01:47 [ewallace]
subtopic: previous minutes
17:02:12 [ewallace]
resolved: accepted previous minutes
17:02:22 [uli]
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17:02:23 [ewallace]
17:02:35 [ewallace]
subtopic: Action items status
17:03:07 [bcuencagrau]
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17:03:09 [ewallace]
pending actions done: 341, 342, 343
17:03:30 [ewallace]
topic: issues/comments
17:03:39 [Zakim]
17:03:49 [bmotik]
ZAkim, unmute me
17:03:49 [Zakim]
bmotik should no longer be muted
17:03:51 [ewallace]
subtopic: boris' proposal on datatype map clarification
17:03:53 [bcuencagrau]
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17:03:54 [uli]
zakim, ??P1 is me
17:03:54 [Zakim]
+uli; got it
17:04:04 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:04:04 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:04:11 [bmotik]
CAn anyone hear me?
17:04:16 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute me
17:04:16 [Zakim]
bmotik was not muted, bmotik
17:04:17 [IanH]
17:04:22 [IanH]
17:04:39 [Zakim]
17:04:41 [ewallace]
bmotik: the point of this is to clarify certain things
17:04:47 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, bglimm is bcuencagrau
17:04:47 [Zakim]
+bcuencagrau; got it
17:04:56 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, mute me
17:04:56 [Zakim]
bcuencagrau should now be muted
17:04:59 [ewallace]
... the syntax doc allowed additional data maps for instance
17:05:05 [Zakim]
17:05:09 [msmith]
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17:05:33 [ewallace]
... the proposal is to take conformance wrt DL ont into syntax
17:05:59 [ewallace]
... we would make the documents more consistent this way
17:06:12 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:06:12 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:06:13 [IanH]
17:06:28 [msmith]
17:06:36 [IanH]
ack msmith
17:06:47 [ewallace]
ianh: what I understand is that you are just suggesting moving things around to make docs more consistent
17:07:04 [ewallace]
msmith: from what I have seen this is a useful clarification
17:07:26 [ewallace]
ianh: since nobody is speaking against this lets do it
17:08:01 [IanH]
PROPOSED: Boris to clarify the definitions of datatype maps as per
17:08:09 [bmotik]
17:08:11 [bcuencagrau]
17:08:11 [uli]
17:08:14 [msmith]
17:08:15 [IanH]
17:08:16 [ewallace]
ewallace NIST +1
17:08:18 [zimmer]
17:08:19 [MarkusK_]
17:08:25 [IanH]
17:08:30 [sandro]
17:08:40 [IanH]
RESOLVED: Boris to clarify the definitions of datatype maps as per
17:09:21 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute me
17:09:21 [Zakim]
bmotik should no longer be muted
17:09:56 [bmotik]
ACTION: bmoitk2 to Clarity the description of datatype maps in Syntax and Conformance
17:09:56 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - bmoitk2
17:10:02 [bmotik]
ACTION: bmotik2 to Clarity the description of datatype maps in Syntax and Conformance
17:10:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-344 - Clarity the description of datatype maps in Syntax and Conformance [on Boris Motik - due 2009-07-08].
17:10:31 [ewallace]
ianh: forest-like individuals issue was resolved by email
17:10:54 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:10:54 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:11:24 [ewallace]
mschneider not present so 3rd issue deferred
17:11:38 [ewallace]
subtopic: Implementation and Testing
17:11:59 [Achille]
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17:11:59 [uli]
we are
17:12:04 [msmith]
17:12:05 [ewallace]
ianh: Hermit is passing all the tests, so we have at least one conformant OWL2 DL reasoner
17:12:09 [IanH]
17:12:10 [uli]
the OWL API going forward
17:12:18 [IanH]
ack msmith
17:12:19 [uli]
and Fact++ is getting closer as well
17:12:20 [ewallace]
ianh: any other implementation results to report?
17:12:41 [Zakim]
17:12:55 [Achille]
Zakim, IBM is me
17:12:55 [Zakim]
+Achille; got it
17:13:09 [Zakim]
17:13:17 [ewallace]
msmith: there is a version of the OWL API that is OWL2 compliant (if not fully)
17:13:33 [ewallace]
ianh: what about pellet itself and OWL 2?
17:13:42 [Zakim]
17:13:56 [ewallace]
msmith: working on datatype area, hope to be done by July 15
17:14:00 [Achille]
Zakim, IBM i sme
17:14:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'IBM i sme', Achille
17:14:03 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
17:14:03 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
17:14:09 [IanH]
17:14:11 [Achille]
Zakim, IBM is me
17:14:11 [Zakim]
+Achille; got it
17:14:32 [ewallace]
uli: I understand Dimetri is working on Fact++
17:14:38 [msmith]
Dmitry did send me test results for FaCT++
17:14:46 [ewallace]
... don't know about OWL API progress
17:14:52 [msmith]
I do have Cel results as well
17:15:12 [MarkusK_]
yes, CEL already uses the test harness
17:15:16 [msmith]
17:15:36 [MarkusK_]
17:16:09 [IanH]
17:16:26 [ewallace]
ianh: Uli do you know anything about progress by Racer people?
17:16:37 [IanH]
17:17:03 [ewallace]
uli: much of this progress will come with the reasoners after the OWL API
17:17:08 [IanH]
17:17:16 [IanH]
ack msmith
17:17:16 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:17:18 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:17:25 [uli]
17:17:42 [ewallace]
msmith: Cel and quanto have submitted results to me, but haven't yet updated results page
17:18:02 [ewallace]
... will update by the 15th
17:18:13 [IanH]
17:18:20 [IanH]
ack MarkusK_
17:18:22 [msmith]
17:18:44 [ewallace]
markusk: Jeff Pan has implemented a profile reasoner
17:19:06 [MarkusK_]
The tool now is called "Trowl"
17:19:40 [ewallace]
ianh: will pellet work include OWLgres?
17:19:56 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
17:19:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see IanH, Evan_Wallace, zimmer, bmotik (muted), MarkusK_, Sandro, uli (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), msmith, Achille
17:19:57 [ewallace]
msmith: not sure this will happen before the 15th
17:19:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Achille, msmith, bcuencagrau, uli, sandro, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, bmotik, zimmer, ewallace, trackbot
17:20:05 [MarkusK_]
17:20:22 [IanH]
17:21:20 [ewallace]
ianh: Achille is anything happening with respect to ?share?
17:21:32 [IanH]
17:22:02 [msmith]
Much of OWL 2 EL is within OWL 1, so presumably, SHER could still pass some of the tests
17:22:04 [ewallace]
achille : only in maintenance mode now, so we don't expect OWL 2 work
17:22:11 [Achille]
Sharon Adler
17:22:36 [ewallace]
ianh: I think that covers most of the implementations that we know about
17:22:39 [MarkusK_]
17:22:53 [IanH]
ack MarkusK_
17:23:11 [ewallace]
markusk: we will build an OWL 2 datalog engine
17:23:50 [IanH]
17:23:51 [MarkusK_]
s /we/STI Innsbruck/
17:24:30 [IanH]
ack uli
17:24:31 [uli]
I seem to remember that
17:24:31 [ewallace]
subsubtopic: species validation
17:24:31 [msmith]
we have profile validators, but no Full vs. DL validator
17:24:34 [IanH]
17:24:58 [IanH]
17:25:05 [ewallace]
ianh: this seems to be resting on Mathew's shoulders
17:26:05 [ewallace]
msmith: our ontologies will only correctly detect profile species for DL ontologies
17:26:10 [IanH]
17:26:11 [ewallace]
... because of repair
17:26:17 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:26:17 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:26:36 [ewallace]
ianh: how big of an issue is this?
17:26:40 [IanH]
17:27:39 [ewallace]
subsubtopic: Test suite and test results
17:27:49 [msmith]
I think so
17:28:10 [ewallace]
ianh: is 15 July the date we said to pull shutters down on test suites and test criteria
17:28:14 [IanH]
17:28:15 [MarkusK_]
17:28:27 [IanH]
17:28:30 [ewallace]
msmith: there is back and forth on some DL tests
17:28:51 [schneid]
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17:28:55 [IanH]
ack MarkusK_
17:28:56 [ewallace]
... for full tests we need mechanisms for moving them forward
17:29:19 [ewallace]
markus: regarding full tests by Michael, we expect them next week
17:29:31 [ewallace]
... some 700 tests
17:29:38 [IanH]
17:29:45 [Zakim]
17:29:48 [ewallace]
ianh: Is this many tests sensible?
17:30:00 [schneid]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:30:00 [Zakim]
+schneid; got it
17:30:04 [IanH]
17:30:05 [schneid]
zakim, mute me
17:30:06 [Zakim]
schneid should now be muted
17:30:15 [ewallace]
ianh: we really need to look at that as it would change the character of the test set.
17:30:15 [schneid]
zakim, unmute me
17:30:15 [Zakim]
schneid should no longer be muted
17:30:31 [IanH]
you are very muffled
17:30:40 [ewallace]
mschneid: It's true, 700.
17:31:05 [ewallace]
ianh: we are concerned that this is a large number, creating a large burden for
17:31:14 [ewallace]
... testers and test harness.
17:31:36 [ewallace]
mschneid: Its true this will double the size of the test suite.
17:31:51 [ewallace]
... everything is covered by only a single test case.
17:31:52 [sandro]
17:32:04 [ewallace]
... OWL2 is a very complex language.
17:32:13 [IanH]
ack sandro
17:32:43 [ewallace]
... I believe a full OWL 2 test suite (including neg entailment tests) would have
17:32:48 [IanH]
17:32:52 [ewallace]
... some 5000 tests!
17:33:19 [ewallace]
msmith: this would mean that for any aspect of the language there would
17:33:24 [ewallace]
... be a test case.
17:34:13 [MarkusK_]
17:34:21 [schneid]
there are millions(!) of pages in wikipedia
17:34:21 [IanH]
ack MarkusK_
17:34:30 [msmith]
+1 to this question
17:34:42 [ewallace]
ianh: will this number create problems for our test infrastructure?
17:34:44 [msmith]
I am unable to review 700 tests
17:34:57 [ewallace]
markus: no. But reviewing them could be challenging.
17:35:20 [ewallace]
mscheid: these test cases are partitioned into parts
17:36:03 [ewallace]
... one part will be checked against Ivan's implementation.
17:36:10 [IanH]
17:36:48 [ewallace]
mscheid: there will be quite some full tests that won't be passed by impl's
17:36:57 [msmith]
@ewallace, the last msmith: scribe was schneid, not me. please adjust in the minutes
17:37:29 [ewallace]
ianh: What should we do with these tests that can't be tested.
17:37:35 [IanH]
17:38:11 [MarkusK_]
we can have non-approved tests in the wiki, no problem
17:38:18 [msmith]
if we have more than 1 RL implementation and some RL tests, then we have an easy mechanism for approval of those tests
17:38:52 [IanH]
17:38:59 [bmotik]
+1 to Ian: we should not approve tests that cannot be tested in practice.
17:40:46 [ewallace]
ianh: my suggestion is for the 15 July deadline: upload all tests, approve those that we can test
17:41:19 [ewallace]
mscheid: this could be really a mess
17:41:21 [IanH]
17:41:36 [ewallace]
... we should pick a subset such as RL
17:41:51 [ewallace]
ianh: let's continue this discussion off line.
17:42:06 [ewallace]
... in the meantime if you could please upload the tests to the wiki.
17:42:32 [ewallace]
ianh: one minor consequence of this is that we may need to change the format
17:42:43 [ewallace]
... of the results page with so many tests.
17:42:56 [msmith]
yes, this is a legitimate concern
17:42:58 [ewallace]
ianh: Some sort of summary page, perhaps.
17:42:59 [IanH]
17:43:04 [MarkusK_]
right, we will discuss this offline
17:43:25 [IanH]
17:43:27 [ewallace]
ianh: the overall coverage looks pretty could.
17:43:41 [ewallace]
... Anything else that we need to discuss here?
17:43:54 [msmith]
I think that's fair.
17:43:59 [ewallace]
ianh: Are we in good shape to declare the test suite complete?
17:44:46 [ewallace]
ianh: 15 July is when we can advertise the test suite for testing.
17:44:54 [schneid]
zakim, mute me
17:44:54 [Zakim]
schneid should now be muted
17:45:27 [uli]
heat wave?
17:46:06 [uli]
17:46:09 [MarkusK_]
17:46:10 [Zakim]
17:46:12 [Zakim]
17:46:13 [Zakim]
17:46:14 [Zakim]
17:46:14 [Zakim]
17:46:15 [zimmer]
17:46:15 [Zakim]
17:46:17 [ewallace]
ianh: I will look at the Doodle poll and send around a time for the next meeting
17:46:18 [Zakim]
17:46:23 [msmith]
17:46:25 [Zakim]
17:46:26 [ewallace]
17:46:28 [Zakim]
17:46:30 [msmith]
msmith has left #owl
17:46:32 [Zakim]
17:46:35 [Zakim]
17:46:37 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
17:46:38 [Zakim]
Attendees were Evan_Wallace, IanH, zimmer, bmotik, MarkusK_, Sandro, uli, bcuencagrau, msmith, Achille, schneid
17:46:54 [IanH]
RRSAgent, make records public
19:45:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #owl