IRC log of CSS on 2009-07-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:54:45 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:54:55 [plinss]
zakim, this will be style
15:54:55 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:56:21 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.216.aaaa
15:56:42 [plinss]
zakim, +1.858.216 is me
15:56:42 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
15:57:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aabb
15:57:54 [Zakim]
15:58:10 [sgalineau]
Zakim, +1.206.324 is me
15:58:10 [Zakim]
+sgalineau; got it
15:59:30 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #css
15:59:57 [Zakim]
16:00:09 [dbaron]
Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:00:09 [Zakim]
+David_Baron; got it
16:01:32 [glazou]
33 celsius here, pffff :-(
16:01:44 [Zakim]
16:01:47 [dbaron]
glazou, it was 39 or so here on Sunday
16:02:02 [Zakim]
16:04:12 [sgalineau]
since we're into weather
16:04:17 [sgalineau]
Seattle is currently 20
16:04:28 [sgalineau]
forecast 27. perfect !
16:04:42 [sgalineau]
of course it's going to suck the rest of the year
16:05:38 [glazou]
MoZ: only during ftfs :)
16:07:31 [alexmog]
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16:07:31 [dbaron]
(The weather is quite nice here now, though; forecast 29-30 for the next 3 days.)
16:07:46 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: make logs public
16:07:55 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, sgalineau, glazou, [Mozilla], Bert, ??P14
16:07:56 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:09:15 [fantasai]
Zakim, I am ??P14
16:09:15 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:09:32 [fantasai]
Bert: Multicol
16:09:36 [fantasai]
has already been published
16:09:41 [dbaron]
Regrets: Øyvind Stenhaug, Anne van Kesteren, Dave Singer, Tona Henderson, Håkon Wium Lie, Steve Zilles, César Acebal, Molly Holzschlag
16:10:00 [arronei]
I'm here on IRC and will be on the call in 5 minutes or so
16:10:16 [fantasai]
dbaron: Any status on publishing flexbox?
16:10:36 [fantasai]
ACTION: Bert publish flexbox as FPWD
16:10:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-161 - Publish flexbox as FPWD [on Bert Bos - due 2009-07-08].
16:11:04 [fantasai]
Bert notes that lots of people are on holiday, but he will try to get that done
16:12:08 [glazou]
phone span, sorry for the noise
16:12:11 [fantasai]
16:12:13 [Zakim]
16:12:23 [dbaron]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has alexmog
16:12:23 [Zakim]
+alexmog; got it
16:13:31 [dbaron]
I'm ok with publishing
16:14:24 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Publish css3-images as FPWD
16:14:39 [fantasai]
ACTION: Bert publish css3-images as FPWD
16:14:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-162 - Publish css3-images as FPWD [on Bert Bos - due 2009-07-08].
16:16:34 [fantasai]
Topic: Anonymous Table Boxes
16:16:35 [fantasai]
16:17:20 [fantasai]
fantasai sent a request for Opera, Microsoft, and Apple to contact their engineers and collect feedback on Boris Zbarsky's anonymous table box generation proposal and testcases
16:18:07 [sgalineau]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has arronei
16:18:07 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:18:32 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't think we can productively discuss this ourselves, we should get feedback from the engineers who are working on it
16:18:47 [fantasai]
fantasai: and have that feedback sent to www-style
16:19:33 [fantasai]
Peter suggests we set a deadline for hearing back, perhaps two or four weeks
16:19:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: four weeks should be plenty... that's the 23rd
16:20:35 [dbaron]
four weeks is the 29th
16:21:12 [fantasai]
ACTION: arron send feedback on anonymous table boxes to www-style
16:21:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-163 - Send feedback on anonymous table boxes to www-style [on Arron Eicholz - due 2009-07-08].
16:21:29 [fantasai]
16:22:27 [fantasai]
ACTION: Peter send emails to Opera and Apple requesting feedback on anonymous table boxes from their engineers
16:22:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-164 - Send emails to Opera and Apple requesting feedback on anonymous table boxes from their engineers [on Peter Linss - due 2009-07-08].
16:22:42 [fantasai]
Topic: IPTV
16:23:17 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'm happy to leave that to the chairs.
16:23:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: dsinger wrote a very nice template you should be able to use
16:24:29 [fantasai]
Topic: border-radius and overflow on replaced elements
16:24:33 [fantasai]
16:24:54 [fantasai]
Hyatt's comments on css3-background:
16:24:55 [fantasai]
Looks good. To address dbaron's concern about overflow, we implemented a very lightweight form of overflow:hidden for replaced elements that doesn't allow programmatic scrolling, etc. All it does is clip. This is kind of gross, however, as we now have two types of overflow:hidden in the engine.
16:25:01 [fantasai]
Form controls in WebKit also clip their contents anyway completely independently of overflow.
16:25:04 [fantasai]
The most elegant solution is probably just to say you always clip replaced element contents to the curve even when overflow is visible. I can't really think of any scenario where you'd want the contents of a replaced element to spill out of the curve.
16:25:42 [fantasai]
16:26:01 [fantasai]
fantasai: So are people happy with always clipping replaced element content to the curve?
16:26:25 [sgalineau]
that is what I'd expect from a border, whatever its shape
16:26:36 [Zakim]
16:26:44 [dbaron]
oops, I hung up instead of hitting mute
16:26:49 [sgalineau]
16:26:52 [Zakim]
16:28:42 [fantasai]
dbaron: My one concern is Robert's comment on form controls
16:29:45 [fantasai]
dbaron: for some replaced form controls, we might need to allow overflow
16:29:56 [fantasai]
dbaron: e.g. on Mac the focus ring is this blue glow that overflows
16:30:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: can we make an exception for form controls then?
16:32:10 [fantasai]
Bert: Why are we doing this?
16:32:26 [fantasai]
fantasai: because for authors, they would expect replaced elements to clip to the curve when they specify one
16:33:08 [fantasai]
fantasai: and because even for overflow: hidden, this triggers special scrolling behavior in UAs like Mozilla and WebKit that they don't want to have for a bunch of images that don't need it
16:38:54 [sgalineau]
fwiw, i don't expect replaced elements to stick out of borders. i'd assume a designer want either the border to clip or expand around the element but not cause an ugly overflow...
16:38:54 [fantasai]
Bert is concerned that we are introducing different behavior for replaced elements and other elements
16:40:21 [fantasai]
fantasai explains that from an authors point of view, given that most of the time content fits within its border box and that border-radius clips the background, replaced elements are just acting weird if they don't clip to the curve
16:40:43 [sgalineau]
what happens if overflow:visible is set on a replaced element with a border ?
16:41:15 [fantasai]
Bert: we'll need css3-page to be updated to not imply that replaced elements can overflow their border box
16:41:18 [fantasai]
fantasai: ye
16:41:18 [fantasai]
16:41:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'll need to update css3-page to say that
16:41:53 [fantasai]
sgalineau, right now nothing happens
16:42:08 [fantasai]
sgalineau, setting other values of overflow also doesn't do anything
16:42:13 [sgalineau]
so then i wouldn't expect overflow:hidden behavior to be an issue...?
16:42:19 [fantasai]
sgalineau, because right now replaced elements never overflow their border
16:42:33 [fantasai]
sgalineau, but with border-radius and image-fit this becomes possible
16:43:17 [sgalineau]
I prefer keeping the current behavior; it's consistent and, i think, what authors expect
16:43:21 [sgalineau]
i.e. clipping
16:43:48 [fantasai]
the currently-specified behavior allows overflow, it is not clipping
16:43:52 [fantasai]
the proposal is to require clipping
16:44:08 [fantasai]
except in cases where the UA determines it to be necessary not to, e.g. form controls
16:45:02 [fantasai]
dbaron: my personal preference would be to require authors to specify overflow: hidden if they want this behavior
16:45:33 [fantasai]
dbaron: if we only end up with it in the case where authors request it, it's not that huge of a perf issue
16:45:43 [fantasai]
dbaron: creating it by default for every image is expensive
16:47:41 [fantasai]
sylvain: I would not expect a replaced element to overflow its border, at least by default, that just seems weird
16:48:03 [fantasai]
sylvain: If I put a border on an image or a video or anything ...
16:49:27 [fantasai]
Sylvain: As an author, I might set a border and put an image inside it or set an image and put a border around it, but I wouldn't expect to have a border and the image overflow the border
16:49:43 [fantasai]
dbaron: I don't think we can implement this in time for CR
16:50:08 [fantasai]
peter: I'm uncomfortable with special-casing things
16:50:27 [fantasai]
peter: currently you can't make it overflow, what about in the future?
16:50:47 [fantasai]
peter: we're introducing new properties that cause overflow
16:51:21 [fantasai]
sylvain: ... why do we want these new properties introduce the ability to overflow for these elements?
16:51:40 [fantasai]
sylvain: Did we have authors complaining about not being able to overflow replaced elements before this?
16:51:51 [fantasai]
Peter: it's just an implementation artifact
16:52:34 [fantasai]
sylvain: FWIW I'm just more comfortable with the existing behavior remaining where it was, i.e. no overflow
16:52:48 [fantasai]
Sylvain: Rather than requiring people to specify extra properties
16:53:00 [fantasai]
Sylvain: Especially since there seems to be no demand or use case scenario for it
16:53:50 [fantasai]
Sylvain: Rounding the border shouldn't cause overflow, I just would not expect that
16:55:48 [sgalineau]
I just would not expect that styling the border differently would affect overflow.
16:56:54 [fantasai]
Peter: Why can't we just require people to set overflow: hidden
16:57:29 [fantasai]
Bert: CSS2 currently says that overflow doesn't apply to replaced element, it would be easy to keep it that way
16:58:22 [fantasai]
Bert imagines someone creating a map with a small viewport with scrollbars
16:59:13 [fantasai]
Peter is averse to special-casing things, but isn't going to hold things up here for it
16:59:33 [fantasai]
peter: we can always unwind it with further properties if necessary
17:00:56 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: accept that overflow: visible does not allow replaced content to overflow
17:01:31 [Zakim]
17:01:32 [Zakim]
17:01:34 [Zakim]
17:01:36 [Zakim]
17:01:46 [Zakim]
17:01:48 [Zakim]
17:01:50 [Zakim]
17:01:52 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, +1.206.324.aabb, glazou, sgalineau, David_Baron, Bert, fantasai, alexmog, arronei, [Mozilla]
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