15:54:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:54:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/01-CSS-irc
15:54:55 <plinss> zakim, this will be style
15:54:55 <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:56:21 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:28 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
15:56:42 <plinss> zakim, +1.858.216 is me
15:56:42 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
15:57:37 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aabb
15:57:54 <Zakim> +glazou
15:58:10 <sgalineau> Zakim, +1.206.324 is me
15:58:10 <Zakim> +sgalineau; got it
15:59:30 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:59:57 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:00:09 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:00:09 <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
16:01:32 <glazou> 33 celsius here, pffff :-(
16:01:44 <Zakim> +Bert
16:01:47 <dbaron> glazou, it was 39 or so here on Sunday
16:02:02 <Zakim> +??P14
16:04:12 <sgalineau> since we're into weather
16:04:17 <sgalineau> Seattle is currently 20
16:04:28 <sgalineau> forecast 27. perfect !
16:04:42 <sgalineau> of course it's going to suck the rest of the year
16:05:38 <glazou> MoZ: only during ftfs :)
16:07:31 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
16:07:31 <dbaron> (The weather is quite nice here now, though; forecast 29-30 for the next 3 days.)
16:07:46 <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
16:07:55 <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, sgalineau, glazou, [Mozilla], Bert, ??P14
16:07:56 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:09:15 <fantasai> Zakim, I am ??P14
16:09:15 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:09:32 <fantasai> Bert: Multicol
16:09:36 <fantasai> has already been published
16:09:41 <dbaron> Regrets: Øyvind Stenhaug, Anne van Kesteren, Dave Singer, Tona Henderson, Håkon Wium Lie, Steve Zilles, César Acebal, Molly Holzschlag
16:10:00 <arronei> I'm here on IRC and will be on the call in 5 minutes or so
16:10:16 <fantasai> dbaron: Any status on publishing flexbox?
16:10:36 <fantasai> ACTION: Bert publish flexbox as FPWD
16:10:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-161 - Publish flexbox as FPWD [on Bert Bos - due 2009-07-08].
16:11:04 <fantasai> Bert notes that lots of people are on holiday, but he will try to get that done
16:12:08 <glazou> phone span, sorry for the noise
16:12:11 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/
16:12:13 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:12:23 <dbaron> Zakim, [Microsoft] has alexmog
16:12:23 <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
16:13:31 <dbaron> I'm ok with publishing
16:14:24 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish css3-images as FPWD
16:14:39 <fantasai> ACTION: Bert publish css3-images as FPWD
16:14:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-162 - Publish css3-images as FPWD [on Bert Bos - due 2009-07-08].
16:16:34 <fantasai> Topic: Anonymous Table Boxes
16:16:35 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009AprJun/0184.html
16:17:20 <fantasai> fantasai sent a request for Opera, Microsoft, and Apple to contact their engineers and collect feedback on Boris Zbarsky's anonymous table box generation proposal and testcases
16:18:07 <sgalineau> Zakim, [Microsoft] has arronei
16:18:07 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:18:32 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't think we can productively discuss this ourselves, we should get feedback from the engineers who are working on it
16:18:47 <fantasai> fantasai: and have that feedback sent to www-style
16:19:33 <fantasai> Peter suggests we set a deadline for hearing back, perhaps two or four weeks
16:19:44 <fantasai> fantasai: four weeks should be plenty... that's the 23rd
16:20:35 <dbaron> four weeks is the 29th
16:21:12 <fantasai> ACTION: arron send feedback on anonymous table boxes to www-style
16:21:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Send feedback on anonymous table boxes to www-style [on Arron Eicholz - due 2009-07-08].
16:21:29 <fantasai> anne?
16:22:27 <fantasai> ACTION: Peter send emails to Opera and Apple requesting feedback on anonymous table boxes from their engineers
16:22:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-164 - Send emails to Opera and Apple requesting feedback on anonymous table boxes from their engineers [on Peter Linss - due 2009-07-08].
16:22:42 <fantasai> Topic: IPTV
16:23:17 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm happy to leave that to the chairs.
16:23:27 <fantasai> fantasai: dsinger wrote a very nice template you should be able to use
16:24:29 <fantasai> Topic: border-radius and overflow on replaced elements
16:24:33 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jun/0115.html
16:24:54 <fantasai> Hyatt's comments on css3-background: 
16:24:55 <fantasai> Looks good.  To address dbaron's concern about overflow, we implemented a very lightweight form of overflow:hidden for replaced elements that doesn't allow programmatic scrolling, etc. All it does is clip.  This is kind of gross, however, as we now have two types of overflow:hidden in the engine.
16:25:01 <fantasai> Form controls in WebKit also clip their contents anyway completely independently of overflow.
16:25:04 <fantasai> The most elegant solution is probably just to say you always clip replaced element contents to the curve even when overflow is visible.  I can't really think of any scenario where you'd want the contents of a replaced element to spill out of the curve. 
16:25:42 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jun/0117.html
16:26:01 <fantasai> fantasai: So are people happy with always clipping replaced element content to the curve?
16:26:25 <sgalineau> that is what I'd expect from a border, whatever its shape
16:26:36 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
16:26:44 <dbaron> oops, I hung up instead of hitting mute
16:26:49 <sgalineau> doh
16:26:52 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:28:42 <fantasai> dbaron: My one concern is Robert's comment on form controls
16:29:45 <fantasai> dbaron: for some replaced form controls, we might need to allow overflow
16:29:56 <fantasai> dbaron: e.g. on Mac the focus ring is this blue glow that overflows
16:30:13 <fantasai> fantasai: can we make an exception for form controls then?
16:32:10 <fantasai> Bert: Why are we doing this?
16:32:26 <fantasai> fantasai: because for authors, they would expect replaced elements to clip to the curve when they specify one
16:33:08 <fantasai> fantasai: and because even for overflow: hidden, this triggers special scrolling behavior in UAs like Mozilla and WebKit that they don't want to have for a bunch of images that don't need it
16:38:54 <sgalineau> fwiw, i don't expect replaced elements to stick out of borders. i'd assume a designer want either the border to clip or expand around the element but not cause an ugly overflow...
16:38:54 <fantasai> Bert is concerned that we are introducing different behavior for replaced elements and other elements
16:40:21 <fantasai> fantasai explains that from an authors point of view, given that most of the time content fits within its border box and that border-radius clips the background, replaced elements are just acting weird if they don't clip to the curve
16:40:43 <sgalineau> what happens if overflow:visible is set on a replaced element with a border ?
16:41:15 <fantasai> Bert: we'll need css3-page to be updated to not imply that replaced elements can overflow their border box
16:41:18 <fantasai> fantasai: ye
16:41:18 <fantasai> s
16:41:25 <fantasai> fantasai: I'll need to update css3-page to say that
16:41:53 <fantasai> sgalineau, right now nothing happens
16:42:08 <fantasai> sgalineau, setting other values of overflow also doesn't do anything
16:42:13 <sgalineau> so then i wouldn't expect overflow:hidden behavior to be an issue...?
16:42:19 <fantasai> sgalineau, because right now replaced elements never overflow their border
16:42:33 <fantasai> sgalineau, but with border-radius and image-fit this becomes possible
16:43:17 <sgalineau> I prefer keeping the current behavior; it's consistent and, i think, what authors expect
16:43:21 <sgalineau> i.e. clipping
16:43:48 <fantasai> the currently-specified behavior allows overflow, it is not clipping
16:43:52 <fantasai> the proposal is to require clipping
16:44:08 <fantasai> except in cases where the UA determines it to be necessary not to, e.g. form controls
16:45:02 <fantasai> dbaron: my personal preference would be to require authors to specify overflow: hidden if they want this behavior
16:45:33 <fantasai> dbaron: if we only end up with it in the case where authors request it, it's not that huge of a perf issue
16:45:43 <fantasai> dbaron: creating it by default for every image is expensive
16:47:41 <fantasai> sylvain: I would not expect a replaced element to overflow its border, at least by default, that just seems weird
16:48:03 <fantasai> sylvain: If I put a border on an image or a video or anything ...
16:49:27 <fantasai> Sylvain: As an author, I might set a border and put an image inside it or set an image and put a border around it, but I wouldn't expect to have a border and the image overflow the border
16:49:43 <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think we can implement this in time for CR
16:50:08 <fantasai> peter: I'm uncomfortable with special-casing things
16:50:27 <fantasai> peter: currently you can't make it overflow, what about in the future?
16:50:47 <fantasai> peter: we're introducing new properties that cause overflow
16:51:21 <fantasai> sylvain: ... why do we want these new properties introduce the ability to overflow for these elements?
16:51:40 <fantasai> sylvain: Did we have authors complaining about not being able to overflow replaced elements before this?
16:51:51 <fantasai> Peter: it's just an implementation artifact
16:52:34 <fantasai> sylvain: FWIW I'm just more comfortable with the existing behavior remaining where it was, i.e. no overflow
16:52:48 <fantasai> Sylvain: Rather than requiring people to specify extra properties
16:53:00 <fantasai> Sylvain: Especially since there seems to be no demand or use case scenario for it
16:53:50 <fantasai> Sylvain: Rounding the border shouldn't cause overflow, I just would not expect that
16:55:48 <sgalineau> I just would not expect that styling the border differently would affect overflow.
16:56:54 <fantasai> Peter: Why can't we just require people to set overflow: hidden
16:57:29 <fantasai> Bert: CSS2 currently says that overflow doesn't apply to replaced element, it would be easy to keep it that way
16:58:22 <fantasai> Bert imagines someone creating a map with a small viewport with scrollbars
16:59:13 <fantasai> Peter is averse to special-casing things, but isn't going to hold things up here for it
16:59:33 <fantasai> peter: we can always unwind it with further properties if necessary
17:00:56 <fantasai> RESOLVED: accept that overflow: visible does not allow replaced content to overflow
17:01:31 <Zakim> -sgalineau
17:01:32 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
17:01:34 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:01:36 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:46 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:01:48 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:50 <Zakim> -glazou
17:01:52 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:55 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, +1.206.324.aabb, glazou, sgalineau, David_Baron, Bert, fantasai, alexmog, arronei, [Mozilla]
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