07:41:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediaann
07:41:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc
07:47:26 <jsderber> chair: Joakim
07:47:49 <jsderber> agenda: F2F Stockholm Day 2
07:51:59 <victor> victor has joined #mediaann
07:52:15 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #mediaann
07:53:25 <jsderber> scribe: Florian
07:55:09 <florian> florian has joined #mediaann
07:55:19 <florian> scribe: florian
07:55:20 <wbailer> wbailer has joined #mediaann
07:55:48 <florian> starting the API discussion with a more detailed look at wonsuks slides
07:57:33 <chris> chris has joined #mediaann
07:58:06 <florian> zakim, who is here
07:58:06 <Zakim> florian, you need to end that query with '?'
07:58:25 <florian> zakim, who is here?
07:58:25 <Zakim> sorry, florian, I don't know what conference this is
07:58:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see chris, wbailer, florian, tmichel, victor, RRSAgent, Zakim, jsderber, dsinger, trackbot
07:58:56 <wbailer> zakim, this will be mawg
07:58:57 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, wbailer
07:59:11 <tmichel> zakim, space for 6 for 600 minutes?
07:59:13 <Zakim> ok, tmichel; conference Team_(mediaann)07:59Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 600 minutes until 1759Z
07:59:40 <dsinger> zakim, this is conf1
07:59:40 <Zakim> dsinger, I see Team_(mediaann)07:59Z in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be conf1".
07:59:50 <dsinger> zakim, this will be conf1
07:59:50 <Zakim> ok, dsinger; I see Team_(mediaann)07:59Z scheduled to start now
07:59:57 <tobias> tobias has joined #mediaann
08:00:18 <florian> zakim, who is here?
08:00:18 <Zakim> Team_(mediaann)07:59Z has not yet started, florian
08:00:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see tobias, chris, wbailer, florian, tmichel, victor, RRSAgent, Zakim, jsderber, dsinger, trackbot
08:00:23 <Zakim> Team_(mediaann)07:59Z has now started
08:00:32 <Zakim> + +46.1.07.17.aaaa
08:00:33 <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
08:00:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see +46.1.07.17.aaaa
08:00:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see tobias, chris, wbailer, florian, tmichel, victor, RRSAgent, Zakim, jsderber, dsinger, trackbot
08:00:52 <dsinger> zakim, +46.1.07.17.aaaa is florian
08:00:52 <Zakim> +florian; got it
08:01:32 <dsinger> zakim, +46.1.07.17.aaaa is [ericsson]
08:01:32 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named '+46.1.07.17.aaaa'
08:01:44 <dsinger> zakim, florian is [ericsson]
08:01:44 <Zakim> +[ericsson]; got it
08:02:10 <dsinger> zakim, [ericsson] has tmichel, jsderber, dsinger, florian, victor
08:02:10 <Zakim> +tmichel, jsderber, dsinger, florian, victor; got it
08:02:41 <dsinger> zakim, [ericsson] has tobias, chris, wbailer
08:02:41 <Zakim> +tobias, chris, wbailer; got it
08:03:40 <florian> Searching for missing items in the yet implemented API
08:03:54 <florian> Victor: are we defining a JAVA API or more generic?
08:04:20 <florian> Chris: different constructs in different languages
08:04:33 <dsinger> hm, getPropVal( propname, sub-name-filter, fragment )? returns list-of-vals
08:04:38 <florian> Wonsuk: we need to define a more generic API
08:04:46 <florian> Victor: Some kind of IDL?
08:05:46 <florian> Victor: are levels of conformance thought in the API? or one level of complexity?
08:07:06 <florian> Joakim: perhaps OpenSocial could help...they defined something like that
08:07:20 <florian> ... so not the project but the way they defined it
08:08:45 <florian> Chris: perhaps have a look at W3Cs Web IDL?
08:09:34 <florian> OpenSocial: http://code.google.com/intl/de-DE/apis/opensocial/
08:09:51 <florian> W3C Web IDL: http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/
08:10:29 <florian> Joakim: wants to examine the yet defined functions and then check what´s missing
08:10:38 <florian> ... after that think of the language
08:15:18 <florian> Wonsuk shows the yet available methods of the API ()
08:15:34 <florian> s/()/(implemented in Java)
08:19:04 <florian> discussing a few architectural things of wonsuks implementation
08:20:31 <florian> Wonsuk: first loading the ontology, than accessing the data
08:20:50 <florian> .. using MAManager
08:21:01 <florian> s/../...
08:22:23 <florian> Werner: you need libraries in order to handle different metadata standards
08:22:35 <florian> ... i our ontology only the things of our properties
08:22:49 <florian> ... other people should build the mapping on top of it
08:22:57 <florian> ... would be more modular
08:23:19 <florian> Chris: reference implementation with two metadataformats in scope
08:23:47 <florian> Joakim: wants to know if the API uses Jena
08:25:12 <florian> Joakim: where is the information about the metadata standards stored?
08:25:45 <florian> Wonsuk: the implementation does´nt handle data types...all are strings
08:26:25 <florian> ... information is stored in the ontology
08:27:51 <florian> Dave: we would be more productive to discuss what we want in the API
08:33:35 <florian> trying to summarize methods we need in the API with their return types and parameter
08:34:39 <florian> Chris: only one metadata format on a ressource? or a mixture of different formats?
08:36:04 <florian> ... like MPEG-7 descripton of a still image, in which is EXIF included
08:38:28 <florian> Werner: the key point is, if there should be only retrieved the metadata of one particular format, or anything
08:42:32 <florian> ... the major issue is to know, from what format the propert is provided (like title) in order to use getter and setter
08:44:39 <florian> Chris: the loss of information must be on a low level in the API mehtods
08:45:27 <florian> Werner: what happens when a setter is executed? to what format will be written?
08:46:16 <florian> Joakim: we need some mechanism i order to loop over the supported formats
08:48:47 <florian> Chris: how the backend stores the metadata information is not important...the idea is to use the single fields available in metadata formats in order to reduce the semantic loss 
08:49:24 <florian> ... a few elements fit good, a few not, choose only the good fitting and don´t care on the storage
08:54:48 <florian> Wonsuk: we are just identifieng the metadata
08:55:16 <florian> ... some applications might support more than one format
08:56:30 <florian> Werner: the behavior of the API must be specified
08:59:19 <florian> Joakim: what should the API return if application fails?
09:01:36 <victor> I dont think we have prepared well the meeting, as problems/ideas are appearing as we along quite erratically 
09:01:57 <victor> For the next time we should have come here with some proposals to be discussed...
09:04:04 <florian> Florian: we should focus on identifying major issues and work on them
09:04:11 <victor> +1
09:04:26 <tobias> +1
09:11:11 <florian> *small_coffee_break*
09:11:21 <Zakim> -[ericsson]
09:11:22 <Zakim> Team_(mediaann)07:59Z has ended
09:11:23 <Zakim> Attendees were tmichel, jsderber, dsinger, florian, victor, tobias, chris, wbailer
09:13:46 <victor> ...
09:14:56 <florian> zakim, this is conf1
09:14:56 <Zakim> florian, I see Team_(mediaann)07:59Z in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be conf1".
09:15:08 <florian> zakim, this will be conf1
09:15:08 <Zakim> ok, florian; I see Team_(mediaann)07:59Z scheduled to start 76 minutes ago
09:15:11 <dsinger> zakim, this is still conf1
09:15:11 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not see a conference named 'still conf1' in progress or scheduled at this time
09:16:02 <florian> Werner: how relevant are the setters? only nice to have?
09:16:10 <florian> ... getters are more important
09:18:29 <florian> Dave: get(property-name, source-format-filter, sub-type-filter, langugae-code-filter, fragment-indicator)
09:18:42 <florian> ... returns list-of-values
09:18:52 <florian> ...some properties may have subtypes
09:19:11 <florian> ... only the first property is essential...the others are optional
09:20:34 <florian> Joakim: we allready have names for the different formats in the ontology doc v1.0
09:23:41 <florian> Dave: get-property-names-that-have-values() //kind of service discovery
09:28:57 <florian> ... get-source-formats() //a list of formats with at least one property with at least one value
09:31:31 <florian> Werner: what happens if we filter on something irrelevant (e.g. language)?
09:36:48 <florian> ... we have to define the overall context (source, metadata, ...)
09:38:56 <florian> Chris: the storage of the metadata should be part of the implementation (cotainer format, distributed, ...)
09:39:09 <florian> Werner: but you have to deal with it at the API level
09:40:28 <florian> werner and tobias will probably do a reference implementatio
09:41:02 <florian> s/implementatio/implementation
09:46:26 <florian> Joakim: which of the return types are controlled by our vocabulary?
09:47:02 <florian> Werner: we should define it (or a range)
09:47:33 <florian> ... perhaps enumerates
09:50:37 <florian> Joakim: we should check the use case document if we are compliant to the requirements
09:50:53 <florian> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-media-annot-reqs-20090604/
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09:56:54 <dsinger> action: victor to edit section 3 example to say that both XMP and IPTC have props that map to MAWG createDate
09:56:54 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - victor
09:58:00 <florian> now reviewing the requirements for the API
09:59:44 <florian> Werner: ambiguous meaning in section 6.1
10:02:01 <florian> Dave: problem again with structured and unstructured metadata (e.g. size <-> personal name)
10:02:22 <florian> Joakim: can we ask if its structured?
10:03:41 <florian> requirement r02: not in scope at the momen
10:26:08 <florian> great discussion about th handling of structured and unstructured metadata arise
10:27:52 <florian> ... regarding requirement r03
10:29:25 <victor> i agree
10:32:52 <florian> we will introduce two methods: get structured data & get unstructered data
10:33:32 <florian> if possible, the adequate data will be retreived...otherwise a mapping takes place (for now black box mapping)
10:34:32 <victor> Example: 
10:34:44 <victor> Creator: David
10:34:56 <victor> Creator: <foaf:Person>    <foaf:name>David Singer </foaf:name>    <foaf:gender>Male</foaf:gender>...
10:35:18 <victor> In the second case, the mapping would return "david singer" and not Male, what is not relevant.
10:35:31 <tobias> tobias has joined #mediaann
11:29:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mediaann
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12:03:09 <chris> continuing discussions on the requirements in the use case document
12:03:18 <chris> ... requirement r04
12:03:45 <chris> David: where is the user-defined metadata?
12:05:28 <chris> Werner: refers to example 5.5
12:05:43 <florian> scribe: chris
12:06:01 <chris> Victor: it's related to social networks
12:07:50 <chris> David: for user-defined metadata we need to identify the user 
12:09:06 <chris> use ma:description tag?
12:09:50 <chris> Werner: the description tag might be not sufficient to describe "structured" user-defined metadata
12:12:41 <chris> ... requirement r05
12:13:04 <chris> r05 can be met with current proposal
12:14:04 <chris> ... requirement r06
12:14:25 <chris> Werner: Felix raised the question if a serialization of the ontology should be defined
12:14:35 <victor> requirements 06 and 07 perhaps could be a bit better rephrased 
12:14:45 <victor> sorry, I mean 05 and 06.
12:15:06 <wbailer> wbailer has joined #mediaann
12:15:32 <chris> requirement r06 is not related to the api so further discussion on this is postponed
12:19:57 <chris> regarding requirement r08 we could use the ma:collection and ma:relation properties 
12:20:19 <chris> Tobias: how do you tell if we are dealing with a resource or a collection?
12:20:54 <chris> remains an open question
12:21:22 <tobias> tobias has joined #mediaann
12:24:32 <chris> action: tobias update rationale of r09 
12:24:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-141 - Update rationale of r09  [on Tobias Bürger - due 2009-07-03].
12:25:40 <chris> ... requirement r09
12:25:50 <chris> Tobias: this is related to trust issues about the metadata
12:26:16 <chris> Tobias: we need metadata about the metadata
12:26:22 <cgi-irc_tmichel> cgi-irc_tmichel has joined #mediaann
12:27:41 <chris> chris: other issues like who added metadata, when, trust, ... 
12:31:11 <chris> r09 remains an open question about the provenance of metadata
12:32:48 <chris> requirement r10 can be met by incorporating fragment-identifiers in the api
12:33:42 <chris> requirement r11 can be met (and is concerning the ontology)
12:36:20 <chris> requirement 12 can be met using structured datatypes
12:36:54 <chris> s/12/r12
12:43:45 <chris> requirement r13,  using structured datatype we can distinguish between uri's and strings
12:46:42 <chris> chris: maybe we should allways return structured data (which can contain unstructured data)
12:52:09 <chris> \me 
13:06:29 <chris> Florian: we should add our notes of the meeting to the wiki
13:06:46 <chris> Florian: feedback is needed about the identified issues and proposals
13:07:26 <chris> Joakim: we should discuss summer holidays (at phoneconference)
13:10:25 <chris> Tobias: assign tasks to people on the identified problems
13:10:34 <chris> +1
13:11:04 <florian> +1
13:11:46 <tobias> tobias has joined #mediaann
13:12:09 <wonsuk> +1
13:12:33 <victor> +1
13:14:43 <chris> action: chris provide examples for our set of properties
13:14:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Provide examples for our set of properties [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-07-03].
13:18:39 <chris> Thierry: the mapping table has been provided as a wiki
13:19:23 <chris> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Summary_mapping.html
13:20:34 <chris> Thierry: would it be easier to just make changes in html (ofline) and upload?
13:21:21 <chris> Thierry: problem with wiki: changes need to be done in html code
13:22:05 <chris> Joakim: most important is that everybody can individually easily work on his documents/table
13:24:36 <chris> Thierry: publish the tables as html-pages and give permission to editors to upload their version
13:27:24 <chris> action: tmichel to sent mail about the upload of tables as html-pages
13:27:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-143 - Sent mail about the upload of tables as html-pages [on Thierry Michel - due 2009-07-03].
13:34:28 <victor> \me A group foto has been taken....
13:39:46 <chris> action: wbailer to fill out the datatype column for mpeg-7 to set an example for other mapping table editors
13:39:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-144 - Fill out the datatype column for mpeg-7 to set an example for other mapping table editors [on Werner Bailer - due 2009-07-03].
13:40:47 <chris> action: chris to elaborate on the API return types (structured and unstructured) by providing examples
13:40:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Elaborate on the API return types (structured and unstructured) by providing examples [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-07-03].
13:48:51 <chris> action: jsderber to define sub-types for the different properties
13:48:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Define sub-types for the different properties [on Joakim Söderberg - due 2009-07-03].
13:56:16 <jsderber> zakim, who is here
13:56:17 <Zakim> jsderber, you need to end that query with '?'
13:56:21 <jsderber> zakim, who is here?
13:56:21 <Zakim> sorry, jsderber, I don't know what conference this is
13:56:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see wbailer, Zakim, wonsuk, chris, florian, tmichel, victor, RRSAgent, jsderber, dsinger, trackbot
13:56:34 <wonsuk> example of XPath for ma:contributor --> /rss/channel/item/media:group/media:credit[@role='contributor']
13:58:04 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #mediaann
14:05:11 <chris> Victor: are there means to work collaboratively on ontology design/implementation?
14:13:01 <chris> Joakim: should we keep all the formats?
14:14:27 <chris> David: we should pick a few that we will work on in prototypes
14:22:19 <chris> action: tmichel Check status of Web IDL for web api's
14:22:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Check status of Web IDL for web api's [on Thierry Michel - due 2009-07-03].
14:23:00 <chris> Wonsuk: a first working draft of the API document could be made (proposed editors: Wonsuk, Chris, Florian, Victor)
14:23:25 <fstegmai> fstegmai has joined #mediaann
14:24:05 <chris> content of the draft: outline, introduction, draft API, draft datatype, examples of api (e.g. Java-implementation of API)
14:25:15 <chris> David: notes of this morning have been added to the wiki
14:25:20 <chris> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Strawman_API_design_and_notes
14:26:18 <chris> action: wonsuk to start work and collaboration on the API draft document
14:26:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-148 - Start work and collaboration on the API draft document [on WonSuk Lee - due 2009-07-03].
14:35:58 <fstegmai> AOB ?
14:36:09 <victor> [informally, we discuss about SWRL implementations, and SPARQL utopic implementation etc...]
14:43:29 <chris> David: set deadline beginning of october for the API document
14:44:02 <chris> 5th F2F is planned 2nd of November in Santa Clara
14:46:48 <chris> Joakim: main topic of next f2f should be the reference implementation of ontology & api
14:47:32 <chris> Joakim: + defining tests for the implementation
14:52:47 <chris> Joakim: + discussion with related groups such as semantic web and web api
14:56:12 <wbailer> RRSAgent, make logs public 
14:56:24 <wbailer> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
14:56:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
14:56:53 <wbailer> Meeting: MAWG
14:57:02 <wbailer> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
14:57:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
15:01:43 <victor> Thanks to everybody, it has been very nice meeting you again and hope to meet you again soon. Thanks to Joakim for the nice organization and his wise advice on herring and devils.
15:01:47 <victor> i am leaving!
15:02:55 <wbailer> rrsagent, bye
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-actions.rdf :
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: victor to edit section 3 example to say that both XMP and IPTC have props that map to MAWG createDate [1]
15:02:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc#T09-56-54
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tobias update rationale of r09  [2]
15:02:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc#T12-24-32
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chris provide examples for our set of properties [3]
15:02:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc#T13-14-43
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tmichel to sent mail about the upload of tables as html-pages [4]
15:02:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc#T13-27-24
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wbailer to fill out the datatype column for mpeg-7 to set an example for other mapping table editors [5]
15:02:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc#T13-39-46
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chris to elaborate on the API return types (structured and unstructured) by providing examples [6]
15:02:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc#T13-40-47
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jsderber to define sub-types for the different properties [7]
15:02:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc#T13-48-51
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tmichel Check status of Web IDL for web api's [8]
15:02:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc#T14-22-19
15:02:55 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wonsuk to start work and collaboration on the API draft document [9]
15:02:55 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-irc#T14-26-18
15:03:02 <wbailer> zakim, bye
15:03:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mediaann