08:05:13 RRSAgent has joined #mediaann 08:05:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc 08:05:22 joakim has joined #mediaann 08:06:11 We moved forward Wonsuk's demo presentation in the agenda. 08:06:56 Wonsuks presents his demo of a reference implementation of the group's work 08:07:44 Scope of the implementation: target formats are EXIF, MediaRSS, TV-Anytime 08:08:45 Ontology is implemented in OWL (based on the recent version of the mapping table from may,19th) 08:10:00 API is implemented using Jena, sanselan (EXIF libary) and Xalan 08:11:41 jsderber has joined #mediaann 08:12:07 chair: Joakim 08:13:45 scribe: tobias 08:14:24 One problem Wonsuk encountered: ma-elements might map to multiple locations in the standards 08:15:37 Example: keyword element in TV Anytime 08:15:59 Werner: we are on the level of fragments; some keywords apply to the whole resource, some to fragments 08:16:45 jsderber has joined #mediaann 08:16:46 Wonsuk: Should we prioritize some elements which are returned? 08:17:41 Jean-Pierre: For TV-Anytime some descriptions (if present) must replace others. 08:19:03 joakim has joined #mediaann 08:19:07 Jean-Pierre: If you use DC you have to pay the price of simplicity; many elements have to be mapped, for instance, to dc:description 08:19:47 agenda: F2F 4 Stockholm 08:20:39 Werner: We are still missing a definition of data types for the properties 08:29:22 Werner: Why is ordering of properties important? 08:34:01 Present: David, Jean-Pierre, Tobias, Chris, Werner, Florian, Simon, Jonas, Anna, Victor, Azadeh, Thierry, Xonsuk, Joakim 08:34:58 Chris: How can you take care that you can elements which were joined can be (dis-)joined again. 08:35:52 Jean-Pierre: There are many problems with having a minimal set of properties, the mapping of more specific to more general properties is one of them. 08:41:13 Wonsuk presents his OWL ontology which models the mappings 08:42:19 Jean-Pierre: Why can't we use SKOS here? SKOS predefines some of the properties that Wonsuk defines in his ontology. 08:49:31 Wonsuk presents his implementaiton of the API (GET) 08:52:46 Wonsuk presents his implementaiton of the API (SET) 08:53:47 Werner: Do you already evaluate if the property is more general / more specific? 08:54:03 Wonsuk: not complete yet; because based on XPath 08:57:30 tmichel has joined #mediaann 08:57:50 zakim, space for 6 for 600 minutes? 08:57:51 ok, tmichel; conference Team_(mediaann)08:57Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 600 minutes until 1857Z 08:58:52 victor has joined #mediaann 09:05:23 Florian: How can you deal with changes in the standards on which the mappings are basedß 09:05:47 Florian: can you support two versions of one standard in parallel? 09:06:37 Now: Coffee Break 09:23:45 Team_(mediaann)08:57Z has now started 09:23:51 +pchampin 09:29:39 -pchampin 09:29:40 Team_(mediaann)08:57Z has ended 09:29:40 Attendees were pchampin 09:46:37 We are back from the coffee break. 09:46:44 tmichel has joined #mediaann 09:50:11 Wonsuk presents open issues with respect to his implementation. These include adding types to the table, create a testdata set, exchange underlying libraries, defiine the scope of the SCOPE API 09:50:32 Tobias: library to parse EXIF files: http://sourceforge.net/projects/libexif 09:50:45 wbailer has joined #mediaann 09:52:00 Wonsuk: Presents API proposal 09:52:13 Joakim: Jonas implemented an API for a metadata format recently. 09:52:59 Jonas: they specified a function for each property; so: a getter for each property 09:53:53 Wonsuk: API option 1: one getter method for each property; option 2: handle each property via input parameter 09:54:37 Wonsuk: Open issue: what kind of action could the API do with semantic mapping like exact, related, etc? 09:55:27 Joakim: proposals occur more with the setters 09:55:55 David: For the getter you could return one property which has a more narrower meaning. 10:00:39 Intermediate Topic: How to handle the mapping table in the feature 10:00:55 Thierry: Excel table does not produce valid HTML output. 10:01:27 Thierry proposes to use the Wiki which can be transformed using XSL into a mapping table. 10:03:43 ACTION for Thierry: copy the format sheets into the Wiki. 10:03:43 Sorry, couldn't find user - for 10:03:58 ACTION for tmichel: Copy the format sheets into the Wiki. 10:03:58 Sorry, couldn't find user - for 10:04:44 ACTION: tmichel to copy the format sheets into the wiki 10:04:45 Created ACTION-129 - Copy the format sheets into the wiki [on Thierry Michel - due 2009-07-02]. 10:05:11 ACTION: tmichel to create an XSL transformation for the format mapping sheets 10:05:11 Created ACTION-130 - Create an XSL transformation for the format mapping sheets [on Thierry Michel - due 2009-07-02]. 10:07:03 One of the next steps: we have to work on the data type definitions 10:07:25 ACTION: tmichel to add a datatype column to the format mapping sheets 10:07:25 Created ACTION-131 - Add a datatype column to the format mapping sheets [on Thierry Michel - due 2009-07-02]. 10:09:13 Wonsuk proposes to add XPath expressions to the sheets 10:10:43 Chris asks if having an XPath expresion is too specifc? Wonsuk says that he needs this for the implementation of the getters. 10:10:51 Team_(mediaann)08:57Z has now started 10:10:58 +pchampin 10:11:40 How many of the considered formats are XML-based? 10:11:44 Chris: In some metadata formats things can be expressed in different ways which makes having different XPATH expression necessary 10:12:28 What about non-XML based formats? 10:12:34 @Victor: most formats have XML serializations, but a considerable amount of them has also an RDF-based serialization 10:12:49 @Victor: EXIF for instance is non-XML based 10:13:59 Chris: thinks that the XPath expressions are just an implementation issue. 10:16:39 ACTION: tmichel to add a column for XPath expressions to the format sheets 10:16:39 Created ACTION-132 - Add a column for XPath expressions to the format sheets [on Thierry Michel - due 2009-07-02]. 10:17:14 The group decided @ 12:15 that we should add XPath expressions to the mapping table. 10:17:28 Victor: What should we do if a format is not XML-based? 10:18:05 Werner: All formats that are non-XML based in our current mapping table are very flat. 10:18:41 "very flat" means that an offset in bytes is enough? 10:19:35 Current topic: check WIKI page of possible enhancements for a next revision of the ontology working draft 10:20:13 First point: Add a browseable version of the proposed ontology? 10:20:30 Werner: The idea was to have a structured definition of the elements. 10:23:10 Current point (from Werner): distinguish between descriptive and technical properties? 10:23:34 Joakim: the issue was: why should we include some technical properties and others not? 10:25:12 Chris: How did we come up with the list of properties in Barcelona? 10:25:23 Joakim: we voted in Barcelona 10:26:34 Chris: Should we try to get some feedback about the properties? 10:26:52 Werner: Discussed the properties in a Digital Cinema project 10:28:08 Jonas: why were we thinking of excluding technical metadata? 10:28:20 Werner: the idea was to keep the basic set quite small. 10:28:53 Jonas: OpenSocial has a lot more elements and are expanding all the time. 10:30:18 We might thinking of seperating between descriptive/technical metadata 10:32:54 Agenda topic: Lunch break 10:55:09 -pchampin 10:55:10 Team_(mediaann)08:57Z has ended 10:55:10 Attendees were pchampin 11:22:40 Zakim has left #mediaann 11:23:30 dsinger has joined #mediaann 11:46:27 ACTION tmichel: Copy the format sheets into the Wiki. 11:46:27 Created ACTION-133 - Copy the format sheets into the Wiki. [on Thierry Michel - due 2009-07-02]. 12:00:06 wbailer has joined #mediaann 12:03:51 tobias has joined #mediaann 12:04:08 Agenda topic: Revision of core attributes 12:09:34 meeting: MAWG F2F (afternoon) 12:09:41 scribe: wbailer 12:10:01 topic: refinement of set of properties 12:10:32 splitting into core set of descriptive properties and technical metadata (maybe specific to media types) 12:11:10 zakim, who is there 12:11:20 zakim, who is here 12:11:36 Zakim has joined #mediaann 12:11:42 zakim, who is there 12:11:42 I don't understand 'who is there', wbailer 12:11:47 zakim, who is here 12:11:47 wbailer, you need to end that query with '?' 12:11:56 zakim, who is here? 12:11:56 sorry, wbailer, I don't know what conference this is 12:11:57 On IRC I see wbailer, dsinger, victor, RRSAgent, trackbot 12:12:06 zakim, this is mawg 12:12:06 sorry, wbailer, I do not see a conference named 'mawg' in progress or scheduled at this time 12:12:15 fstegmai has joined #mediaann 12:12:52 tobias has joined #mediaann 12:13:35 david: propose to add frame rate 12:14:03 wlee3 has joined #mediaann 12:15:20 classify technical metadata according to media type 12:17:57 david: is frame rate and audio sampling rate the same? what to return for a movie? 12:18:44 jean-pierre: use edit rates for temporal sampling 12:21:45 joakim: call intrisic properties of media "technical metadata" 12:22:15 david: profiles are orthogonal to descriptive/technical metadata, eg. camera man only makes sense for video 12:22:57 zakim, this is conf1 12:22:57 dsinger, I see Team_(mediaann)08:57Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be conf1". 12:23:08 zakim, this will be conf1 12:23:08 ok, dsinger; I see Team_(mediaann)08:57Z scheduled to start 206 minutes ago 12:30:19 define framerate (video) and samplingrate (audio) as properties 12:30:39 chris: describing properties of container vs properties of streams 12:31:05 jean-pierre: need to define which stream is main reference point of temporal addressing 12:32:12 chris: container with different bit rates 12:34:08 jean-pierre: containers with streams with different rates currently not an issue on the web 12:39:26 david: is bit rate needed or can it be calculated from size and duration? 12:42:12 david: add dataSize (file size or stream size) 12:43:33 david: having bitrate additionally, it may be contradictory 12:43:54 david: dataSize could be indefinite for live broadcasts 12:44:17 david: use bit rate, if finite duration, data size could be calculated 12:44:34 jean-pierre: which bit rate? average? 12:44:42 david: average bit rate 12:47:21 joakim: include sample type/size? 12:50:02 drop 12:50:20 joakim: number of tracks? 12:54:16 add number of track and track type 12:54:42 add getNamedFragments - possible fragment names to request 12:54:58 david how to get track format 12:55:21 david: accessibility issues for multimedia 12:55:45 david: requirements for adaptations, specific tracks may be available for that purpose 12:55:58 ... eg. high contrast video instead of normal video track 12:56:17 ... would need to add function of track in addition to track format 12:57:41 chris: mpeg-21 looked at description of adaption, user needs 12:58:18 ... not sure if adaptation requirements need to be added in the metadata 12:58:33 ... similar to age adaptation 12:58:37 jsderber has joined #mediaann 13:00:58 tobias: has in his ontology number of views, price, and specific types of dates 13:01:14 the dates are: creation date, modification date, publication date 13:02:05 I also had more descriptive properties such as keywords, tags, category 13:02:25 david: can track type be retrieved using format on the track fragment? 13:05:58 number of views? dropped 13:06:48 chris: difference tag and keyword? 13:07:02 joakim: tag is user defined keyword 13:07:24 chris: keywords summarize, tags are subjective 13:08:31 tag will not be added 13:10:59 david: language versions of some elements (eg title) 13:11:14 ... what is returned? 13:11:52 david: data types: uris vs text 13:12:16 david: how to return sets of elements 13:13:10 david: duration of file vs annotated duration 13:14:06 david: unit of frame size, ... ? 13:14:57 ... and (pixel) aspect ratio? 13:15:23 david: how to specify compression format? 13:15:38 ... no standard way of referring to compression type 13:17:20 david: support gps location for notation, as well as named places 13:17:38 tobias: why do we have location, but not person? 13:18:04 chris: can be depicted or shot location? 13:18:09 joakim: yes 13:18:31 chris: if we support depicted locations, we should also support persons, events, ... 13:19:04 joakim: we have a structured way of expressing location, not for the other properties 13:19:56 joakim: define in api whether you get depicted or shot location 13:20:22 chris: use location only for shot location 13:20:40 ... for depicted locations, persons, ... could be keywords 13:20:52 ... or add specific properties for these 13:23:15 action: dsinger to update description of location to represent shot location 13:23:15 Sorry, couldn't find user - dsinger 13:24:02 action: david to revise e-mail on issues/updates of property description 13:24:02 Created ACTION-134 - Revise e-mail on issues/updates of property description [on David Singer - due 2009-07-02]. 13:27:04 david: difference between rating and target audience? 13:27:14 joakim: rating is user rating 13:28:31 david: is target audience a triple: issuer, target audience, value? 13:29:21 jean-pierre: triple: agency (optional), rating scheme name, value 13:29:30 Daniel has joined #mediaann 13:30:13 hi all...sorry for missing the F2F, I am now in Seattle for another meeting 13:30:48 did you have a lunch ? 13:31:00 add price? 13:31:16 david: price for whom to whom? 13:31:52 tobias: also had license item 13:32:42 jonas: two versions of content: two separate resources 13:32:54 joakim: one resource for two instances 13:32:54 price - rental or own? what resolution? director's cut or the in-flight movie? and so on... 13:33:07 jonas: how to handle two technical descriptions? 13:34:34 joakim: does our definition still hold (describing abstract resource or instance) 13:35:16 chris: you do not describe technical properties when talking about the abstract resource 13:35:54 * 13:35:57 \ 13:36:14 joakim: content star wars, 2 instances? 13:36:31 victor: at least 3 different descriptions in this case 13:37:17 simon: relations between these different descriptions are not yet defined 13:37:30 chris: we have a locator that points to an instance 13:37:57 simon: what about metadata of instance? 13:39:13 use relation element to point from instance to abstract content? 13:39:21 chris: use relation field 13:39:49 jonas: price more considered to instance 13:40:07 victor: price is described within a license 13:40:14 joakim: drop price 13:40:54 victor: dc:source would be more appropriate to link from instance to abstract resource 13:41:22 joakim: source was not even in top rated tags list 13:41:54 Zakim, list attendees 13:41:54 sorry, wbailer, I don't know what conference this is 13:43:03 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:43:12 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:43:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer 14:03:44 for frameSize, we have the problem of non-square pixels. Thus, I see the API could return (a) the actual pixel counts, ignoring pixel aspect ratio - useful for finding a 1080p movie, for example (b) the pixel counts, but adjusted to be the space they would occupy on a square pixel display if the more tightly-sampled axis is expanded (i.e. no resolution loss) - useful if you want to know how big a space, or a space of what aspect ratio, to reserve to display 14:06:46 joakim has joined #mediaann 14:06:52 vrodrgue2 has joined #mediaann 14:06:59 on compression type, I recommend a return result that is the mime string of the container, with the codecs parameter as defined in RFC 4281, if needed 14:07:16 victor has joined #mediaann 14:07:26 ... 14:10:37 for location, we decided it was actual shot location, so I suggest a pair, either of which elements can be empty, of a GPS location in ISO 6709 Annex H format, and a human ('annotated') name (e.g. "Barcelona", "Granny's house") 14:13:33 Werner: Before closing the discussion on metadata elements, we should review some of them. For example, "tagline" 14:13:37 chris has joined #mediaann 14:14:51 title can have various sub-forms, e.g. sub-title, tagline, etc., as well as each possibly having language variants 14:15:24 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Candidate_Additional_Elements 14:16:01 see http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Candidate_Additional_Elements 14:16:48 Zakim, who is here? 14:16:48 Team_(mediaann)08:57Z has not yet started, victor 14:16:50 On IRC I see chris, victor, vrodrgue2, joakim, Daniel, wlee3, florian, Zakim, wbailer, dsinger, RRSAgent, trackbot 14:17:31 David: We need ma:relation 14:18:52 Joakim: Examples of subtypes could be: "thumbnail", "trailer", etc. 14:19:38 Following the candidate additional elements, we review the "rights" element: 14:20:23 Tobias. We have only a ma:copyright element 14:20:55 Victor: We had also intitially dc:rights but this element has been dropped.... 14:23:05 ACTION Joakim Will refine the subtypes, like ma:contributor, ma:publisher etc. 14:23:05 Created ACTION-136 - Will refine the subtypes, like ma:contributor, ma:publisher etc. [on Joakim Söderberg - due 2009-07-02]. 14:24:43 David: The mapping table in the wiki would be better located than in a spreadsheet 14:26:09 Tobias: Each element description should be in a different page in the wiki 14:26:52 Joakim: This would avoid having sso many times the same text (what would be difficult to update etc.) 14:27:30 Werner, Wonsuk: nodds 14:28:15 Joakim: Draws in the whiteboard a scheme of the main page of the mapping table 14:29:45 s/sso/s 14:30:11 Joakim: (drawing) Main page consists of a table with the following columns: MAWG, Description, DataType (example: "ma:contributor", "text description", "xsd:string") 14:31:04 action: wbailer to update attributes table 14:31:04 Created ACTION-137 - Update attributes table [on Werner Bailer - due 2009-07-02]. 14:31:17 Joakim (drawing): each mapping table (XMP, EXIF, etc) has also a table with the following columns:MAWG, XMP attribute, How to do the mapping, Datatype, XPath 14:33:12 Now, analyzing "List of fragments" 14:34:10 Joakim shows a Felix email, where he suggests the possible need to annotate his favourite fragments in a video 14:37:33 (It is discussed but a conclusion is not reached for the moment...) 14:38:23 David: Why not adding a new row: "fragment"? 14:38:57 Werner: agrees 14:39:13 Joakim: Does not like the term very much... 14:40:34 It is agreed that chapters are really useful 14:40:56 ma:fragment is proposed to be added 14:41:19 : chapter, highlight, favourite 14:41:33 as subtypes. 14:42:01 Chris: They are pairs 14:42:52 Agreed: ma:fragment is a pair of fragment, and the role it plays. 14:43:26 NEXT ITEM IN THE LIST of new elements to be considered: "Accesibility Metadata" 14:44:32 ACTION wbailer to update the candidate additional elements 14:44:32 Created ACTION-138 - Update the candidate additional elements [on Werner Bailer - due 2009-07-02]. 14:46:23 NEXT 14:46:40 we review the list of improvements and enhancement of the ontology, see http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Improvements_/_Enhancement_for_a_revision_of_the_"Ontology_for_Media_Resource_1.0"_document 14:47:50 David: I suggest adding a "Example" column in the mappings page in the wiki 14:48:48 Now: number 6 in the list of improvements: some in-scope formats are not part of the mapping table. 14:51:34 The list of "formats in scope" is in Clause 1.2 of the "Ontology for Media Resource 1.0" document 14:52:29 Joakim this can be fixed for the next version, no need to spend more time now on it. 14:53:52 Now: number 7-º0 in the list of improvements: we go over them very fast. 14:54:13 Now: number 11 in the list: Veronique said ontology definition etc. could be improved 14:54:26 We agree that all of it can be done for the next version of the ontology document 14:55:40 ACTION florian To check with Veronique (and Victor) the improvements 9-11 in the list. 14:55:40 Created ACTION-139 - Check with Veronique (and Victor) the improvements 9-11 in the list. [on Florian Stegmaier - due 2009-07-02]. 14:57:20 (Jean Pierre Evain leaves the meeting to take a plane) 15:00:18 (Joakim goes with him, we note with fear the inward-opening locked door and the bars on the windows) 15:03:20 \me what happen in there ? 15:03:28 (Joakim is unable to re-enter; perhaps grateful) 15:08:09 We recall that some syntactic information (a column?) is missing in the mapping table 15:09:36 We recall that the next version might include several layers of complexity, and several layers of conformance 15:10:18 We postpone the meeting until tomorrow 15:10:46 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:10:53 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:10:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer 15:14:27 Meeting: MAWG F2F 15:14:46 action: chris to come up with examples 15:14:47 Created ACTION-140 - Come up with examples [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-07-02]. 15:15:22 florian has joined #mediaann 15:15:48 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:15:54 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:15:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer 15:26:39 AOB ? 15:32:46 zakim, bye 15:32:46 Zakim has left #mediaann 15:32:50 rrsagent, bye 15:32:50 I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-actions.rdf : 15:32:50 ACTION: tmichel to copy the format sheets into the wiki [1] 15:32:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc#T10-04-44 15:32:50 ACTION: tmichel to create an XSL transformation for the format mapping sheets [2] 15:32:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc#T10-05-11 15:32:50 ACTION: tmichel to add a datatype column to the format mapping sheets [3] 15:32:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc#T10-07-25 15:32:50 ACTION: tmichel to add a column for XPath expressions to the format sheets [4] 15:32:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc#T10-16-39 15:32:50 ACTION: tmichel to Copy the format sheets into the Wiki. [5] 15:32:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc#T11-46-27 15:32:50 ACTION: dsinger to update description of location to represent shot location [6] 15:32:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc#T13-23-15 15:32:50 ACTION: david to revise e-mail on issues/updates of property description [7] 15:32:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc#T13-24-02 15:32:50 ACTION: wbailer to update attributes table [8] 15:32:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc#T14-31-04 15:32:50 ACTION: chris to come up with examples [9] 15:32:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/25-mediaann-irc#T15-14-46