IRC log of mediafrag on 2009-06-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:58:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
11:58:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-mediafrag-irc
11:59:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
11:59:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #mediafrag
11:59:02 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
11:59:02 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
11:59:03 [trackbot]
Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
11:59:03 [trackbot]
Date: 24 June 2009
11:59:38 [davy]
davy has joined #mediafrag
11:59:56 [Zakim]
IA_MFWG()8:00AM has now started
12:00:04 [Zakim]
+ +49.300.aaaa
12:00:07 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, code
12:00:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', mhausenblas
12:00:10 [mhausenblas]
Zakim, code?
12:00:10 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), mhausenblas
12:00:13 [Zakim]
+Erik
12:00:21 [Zakim]
+mhausenblas
12:00:49 [raphael]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jun/0019.html
12:01:03 [raphael]
Regrets: Jack, Thierry
12:01:08 [raphael]
Chairs: Erik, Raphael
12:01:13 [Zakim]
+Yves
12:01:31 [raphael]
Present: Yves, Silvia, Michael, Erik, Raphael, Conrad, Guillaume, Davy
12:02:58 [Zakim]
+cleophas
12:03:11 [Gui]
zakim, cleophas is gui
12:03:12 [Zakim]
+gui; got it
12:05:01 [nessy]
zakim, nessy is Silvia
12:05:01 [Zakim]
sorry, nessy, I do not recognize a party named 'nessy'
12:05:08 [raphael]
Scribe: raphael
12:05:16 [raphael]
Scribenick: raphael
12:05:21 [raphael]
Topic: 1. Admin
12:05:40 [raphael]
PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 10 June 2009 telecon
12:05:47 [raphael]
http://www.w3.org/2009/06/10-mediafrag-minutes.html
12:05:48 [raphael]
+1
12:05:49 [davy]
+1
12:05:50 [erik]
+1
12:05:51 [Gui]
+1
12:05:54 [raphael]
Minutes accepted
12:06:10 [raphael]
zakim, who is here
12:06:10 [Zakim]
raphael, you need to end that query with '?'
12:06:12 [raphael]
zakim, who is here?
12:06:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +49.300.aaaa, Erik, mhausenblas, Yves, gui
12:06:13 [Zakim]
Erik has Erik, Davy
12:06:14 [Zakim]
On IRC I see davy, Zakim, RRSAgent, erik, mhausenblas, raphael, Gui, nessy, trackbot, Yves
12:06:31 [conrad]
conrad has joined #mediafrag
12:06:49 [raphael]
Topic: 2. UC & REQUIREMENTS
12:06:56 [Gui]
zakim, mute me
12:06:56 [Zakim]
gui should now be muted
12:08:44 [raphael]
Yves: will send an email to TAG asap
12:08:57 [raphael]
Raphael: bring this issue to Hypertext CG
12:09:01 [Gui]
If we really want feedback, the UC & REQUIREMENTS needs to go to Last Call.
12:09:19 [Zakim]
+ +81.80.614.3.aabb
12:09:29 [raphael]
HTML 5 will review the doc ... via Chris Wilson and Sam
12:09:49 [conrad]
Zakim, aabb is conrad
12:09:49 [Zakim]
+conrad; got it
12:09:55 [conrad]
Zakim, mute me
12:09:55 [Zakim]
conrad should now be muted
12:10:49 [raphael]
close ACTION-83
12:10:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-83 Check whether UC & REQUIREMENTS going to be a W3C WG Note or will it go to Last Call ? closed
12:11:29 [raphael]
The doc will be split into 2 documents: one will be WG Note, the other will go for Last Call since it will be part of the spec
12:11:56 [raphael]
Raphael: I will email the group when the others actions are done ... later after the telecon
12:12:03 [raphael]
Topic: 3. SPECIFICATION
12:12:17 [raphael]
close ACTION-67
12:12:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-67 Sync with Jean Pierre to get the edit units spec reference closed
12:12:23 [raphael]
I got the info from Jean Pierre
12:12:40 [raphael]
ACTION: Erik to summarize the info from Jean Pierre, and mail it to the group
12:12:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-84 - Summarize the info from Jean Pierre, and mail it to the group [on Erik Mannens - due 2009-07-01].
12:12:58 [raphael]
Re: the edit units spec
12:13:07 [raphael]
ACTON-49?
12:13:12 [raphael]
ACTION-49?
12:13:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-49 -- Yves Lafon to draft the HTTP-Range syntax for different units (completing all the syntax for the two way handshake) -- due 2009-03-25 -- OPEN
12:13:12 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/49
12:13:52 [raphael]
Yves: there is an issue in HTTPBis with how to defined custom ranges
12:14:16 [raphael]
... will be dealt within IETF in our face to face meeting, end of July
12:14:27 [raphael]
... for the general complete syntax, we have to wait
12:14:34 [raphael]
... but I can write an example now
12:14:46 [raphael]
Raphael: I will postpone the action in the tracker
12:14:52 [conrad]
Zakim, unmute me
12:14:52 [Zakim]
conrad should no longer be muted
12:15:02 [raphael]
UA Server HTTP Communication
12:15:12 [raphael]
ACTION-63?
12:15:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-63 -- Conrad Parker to update the Wiki with his more general approach with precisely the same examples -- due 2009-04-23 -- OPEN
12:15:12 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/63
12:16:22 [raphael]
Several emails on the discussion
12:16:39 [raphael]
Yves: the first example might be the most interesting one
12:16:52 [raphael]
Conrad: I suggest to continue the discussion on the mailing list
12:17:05 [conrad]
Zakim, mute me
12:17:05 [Zakim]
conrad should now be muted
12:17:12 [mhausenblas]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/UserAgentMediaFragmentResolution
12:17:21 [raphael]
UA MF Resolution and Processing
12:17:32 [raphael]
Michael: depends on Raphael's action :-) re: to split the document
12:17:36 [raphael]
Raphael: indeed :-)
12:18:03 [raphael]
Michael: I will draft the section as soon as Raphael release the doc
12:18:49 [raphael]
ACTION-77?
12:18:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-77 -- Yves Lafon to investigate what's happened when facing an invalid Media Fragment URI, re step 2 of http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/UserAgentMediaFragmentResolution -- due 2009-05-06 -- OPEN
12:18:50 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/77
12:18:58 [Zakim]
+Silvia
12:19:45 [nessy]
Zakim, mute me
12:19:45 [Zakim]
sorry, nessy, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
12:19:56 [raphael]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/UserAgentMediaFragmentResolution
12:20:11 [Silvia]
Zakim, mute me
12:20:11 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
12:21:49 [mhausenblas]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009May/0048.html
12:23:31 [raphael]
Yves: Optimistic default behavior of a server, it can serve the whole content, since you specified a wrong empty
12:25:03 [raphael]
Yves: in the wild, server tends to return a 416, when the request is out of range
12:25:24 [raphael]
Michael: 416 is my preferred one
12:25:30 [davy]
+1 to Michael
12:25:38 [Silvia]
+1 to Michael
12:25:39 [raphael]
+1
12:26:02 [mhausenblas]
we are talking about http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCasesDiscussion
12:26:38 [erik]
+1 to Michael
12:26:55 [raphael]
Proposed resolution: 416 for TC returning EMPTY
12:26:59 [mhausenblas]
+1
12:27:00 [davy]
+1
12:27:03 [erik]
+1
12:27:21 [Silvia]
+1 (in case you missed it above)
12:27:26 [raphael]
RESOLUTION: consensus that 416 is the correct response when the TC returns EMPTY
12:27:27 [conrad]
+7
12:27:54 [raphael]
ACTION: Michael to update resolution page, TC pages with that resolution
12:27:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-85 - Update resolution page, TC pages with that resolution [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-07-01].
12:28:33 [raphael]
close ACTION-77
12:28:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-77 Investigate what's happened when facing an invalid Media Fragment URI, re step 2 of http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/UserAgentMediaFragmentResolution closed
12:28:55 [raphael]
Raphael: providing the following clarification: "invalid URI" meant, URI returning an invalid ranges
12:28:59 [raphael]
... but valid URI
12:29:26 [raphael]
Topic: 4. TEST CASES
12:29:30 [raphael]
ACTION-81?
12:29:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-81 -- Michael Hausenblas to update the TC discussion page with 204 proposal and ask Yves's opinion on the list -- due 2009-05-27 -- OPEN
12:29:30 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/81
12:29:37 [raphael]
close ACTION-81
12:29:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-81 Update the TC discussion page with 204 proposal and ask Yves's opinion on the list closed
12:29:50 [mhausenblas]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases
12:29:56 [raphael]
Michael: how should we go further ?
12:30:51 [raphael]
Approval page: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases
12:33:05 [raphael]
Reviewing TC0007
12:33:21 [raphael]
Michael: if one of the segment is empty, then the and of all segments is empty
12:33:28 [raphael]
Yves: this seems logical
12:33:35 [Gui]
+1
12:33:43 [davy]
+1
12:34:17 [erik]
+1
12:34:34 [Silvia]
+1
12:35:01 [raphael]
RESOLUTION: TC0007 should return EMPTY (thus 416)
12:35:08 [conrad]
i think if one is empty it gets treated as empty; eg 't=' returns ENTIRE, not NULL
12:35:10 [Silvia]
so we regard it as an intersection on the different dimensions
12:35:22 [raphael]
yes silvia
12:35:23 [Gui]
but we did say : #t=, returns entire on TC00001
12:35:35 [raphael]
conrad, yes also
12:35:35 [conrad]
so the intersection of ENTIRE and id=ID0 is id=ID0
12:35:39 [conrad]
not NULL
12:35:55 [raphael]
except that "t=" does not exist
12:35:57 [Silvia]
I agree - the example needs to be changed
12:36:01 [Gui]
intersection is no null ...
12:36:05 [Gui]
the example is wrong
12:36:18 [conrad]
"t=" is defined in TC0001
12:36:40 [Silvia]
TC0007 has t=, just like TC0001
12:36:45 [Gui]
then
12:36:46 [Gui]
#t=,&id='ID0'
12:36:56 [Gui]
is ENTIRE intersects ID0
12:37:01 [Gui]
= ID0
12:37:26 [raphael]
The input of TC007 should be: #t=0,0&id='ID0'
12:37:28 [raphael]
for example
12:37:39 [conrad]
so perhaps we need tests for both empty intersect and invalid intersect
12:37:42 [Gui]
should be changed to #t=0,0&id='ID0' ?
12:37:58 [conrad]
Zakim, unmute me
12:37:58 [Zakim]
conrad should no longer be muted
12:38:51 [raphael]
TC0007 is about empty intersect
12:39:01 [Silvia]
Zakim, unmute me
12:39:01 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
12:39:15 [raphael]
Conrad: I suggest to have another test case with an invalid intersect, such as 't=', which is invalid
12:39:36 [Gui]
+1, we need another TC
12:39:39 [raphael]
... more precisely: "t=&id='ID0'"
12:39:50 [raphael]
Michael: ok, I will add another TC
12:39:57 [raphael]
for which the result will be NULL
12:40:16 [raphael]
?
12:40:18 [Silvia]
Zakim, mute me
12:40:18 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
12:40:21 [conrad]
the "purpose" line for TC0007 should say "invalid" not "empty"
12:40:37 [conrad]
or something like that :-)
12:40:54 [raphael]
TC0008: legacy deep link
12:42:53 [conrad]
Zakim, mute me
12:42:53 [Zakim]
conrad should now be muted
12:43:25 [raphael]
I make a quick check: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxoh1z6s_Cw#t=20s jump to the 20th sec
12:43:32 [raphael]
but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxoh1z6s_Cw#t=20 doesn't
12:43:52 [Silvia]
I know the people at YouTube who implemented it
12:44:15 [Silvia]
I think they might update their syntax
12:44:31 [Gui]
existing implementations and syntaxes ... should we ask them to update their syntax ?
12:44:34 [conrad]
i think we should aim to not break the internet; there could be any random apps out there with javascript parsing # fragments, and if it is not a media fragment then a UA should fall back to the application behaviour
12:44:41 [Silvia]
Zakim, unmute me
12:44:41 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
12:44:49 [raphael]
+1 conrad
12:45:47 [raphael]
Silvia: I want to suggest we also consider a syntax where the comma is optional
12:45:54 [Silvia]
Zakim, mute me
12:45:54 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
12:46:02 [conrad]
in any case an app like youtube probably overrides the UA's native # behaviour, ie. the page javascript might override MF
12:46:29 [Silvia]
Zakim, unmute me
12:46:29 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
12:47:25 [Silvia]
Zakim, mute me
12:47:25 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
12:47:32 [raphael]
Michael: are we going to adopt the google syntax? what about the other players ? not the right way to follow
12:47:51 [Silvia]
Zakim, unmute me
12:47:51 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
12:47:57 [raphael]
Silvia: well, there is a good rationale for the comma, the question is not to take the youtube syntax
12:48:12 [raphael]
Raphael: and we do not have the formal syntax that YouTube accepts
12:48:33 [raphael]
Silvia: i'm rather on the usability front, I want to make our scheme simple enough to use
12:48:42 [Silvia]
Zakim, mute me
12:48:42 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
12:48:46 [raphael]
... the comma might unnecessarily complexify the thing
12:48:49 [conrad]
+1 Silvia
12:49:15 [Silvia]
Zakim, unmute me
12:49:15 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
12:49:16 [davy]
+1
12:49:55 [erik]
+1
12:50:01 [Silvia]
Zakim, mute me
12:50:01 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
12:50:49 [Silvia]
Zakim, unmute me
12:50:49 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
12:51:34 [raphael]
ACTION: Raphael to bring the 'comma optional' discussion during next week telecon, in order to measure the price when releasing the syntax
12:51:34 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Raphael
12:51:37 [Silvia]
Zakim, mute me
12:51:37 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
12:51:41 [raphael]
trackbot, status
12:51:52 [Silvia]
I suggest Yves write down the ABNF syntax for optional comma
12:52:01 [Silvia]
so we can make sure it's not ambiguous
12:52:17 [raphael]
ACTION: Raphaël to bring the 'comma optional' discussion during next week telecon, in order to measure the price when releasing the syntax
12:52:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-86 - to bring the 'comma optional' discussion during next week telecon, in order to measure the price when releasing the syntax [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2009-07-01].
12:52:24 [conrad]
Silvia: just change ABNF from start,[end] to start[,end]
12:52:37 [raphael]
TC0008 needs a bit more thinking
12:52:43 [mhausenblas]
propose to put it http://www.w3.org/2006/03/test-description#onhold
12:53:41 [raphael]
ACTION: Michael to add the HTTP status code for all TC
12:53:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-87 - Add the HTTP status code for all TC [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-07-01].
12:54:03 [raphael]
Topic: 5. ISSUES
12:54:13 [raphael]
ACTION-76?
12:54:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-76 -- Erik Mannens to contact the editors of MPEG-21 Part 17 regarding the registry of their scheme -- due 2009-05-06 -- OPEN
12:54:13 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/76
12:54:21 [raphael]
Erik: I will send them a reminder
12:54:59 [conrad]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/4
12:54:59 [raphael]
ACTION-73?
12:54:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-73 -- Conrad Parker to change the phrasing of the issue 4 (just audio/video)? -- due 2009-04-24 -- OPEN
12:54:59 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/73
12:55:06 [raphael]
Conrad, can you remember the context ?
12:55:18 [conrad]
i put a note at the bottom of the issue
12:55:23 [conrad]
Zakim, unmute me
12:55:23 [Zakim]
conrad should no longer be muted
12:55:24 [raphael]
Raphael: I remember it came from the last f2f meeting in Barcelina
12:55:35 [raphael]
s/Barcelina/Barcelona
12:55:48 [Silvia]
Zakim, unmute me
12:55:48 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
12:56:14 [raphael]
Silvia: I got some feedback from the OpenVideo conf
12:56:42 [conrad]
so one issue is whether to allow anything other than "audio" and "video", then another issue is what to do if there are multiple audio or video tracks
12:57:22 [Gui]
wait for feedback on content negotiation from other WGs
12:58:50 [conrad]
(can we close 73? the issue seems more complex than action 73 :-)
12:58:55 [raphael]
yes
12:59:03 [raphael]
close ACTION-73
12:59:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-73 Change the phrasing of the issue 4 (just audio/video)? closed
12:59:42 [Gui]
Silvia: Please let us know
12:59:47 [conrad]
Zakim, mute me
12:59:48 [Zakim]
conrad should now be muted
12:59:53 [Silvia]
Zakim, mute me
12:59:53 [Zakim]
Silvia should now be muted
13:00:05 [raphael]
ACTIOn-62?
13:00:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-62 -- Yves Lafon to ask the TAG whether transcoding should be forbidden or not when we send a fragment of a resource -- due 2009-04-23 -- OPEN
13:00:05 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/62
13:00:34 [raphael]
Yves ?
13:00:53 [raphael]
-- continue
13:01:03 [raphael]
ACTION-82?
13:01:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-82 -- Michael Hausenblas to flesh out TC vocabulary re ISSUE-9 -- due 2009-05-27 -- OPEN
13:01:03 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/82
13:01:23 [raphael]
Michael: I haven't started yet
13:01:33 [raphael]
Topic: 6. AOB
13:01:46 [raphael]
Michael: I send regrets in advance for the next 2 weeks
13:02:28 [Silvia]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty
13:02:42 [conrad]
Zakim, unmute me
13:02:42 [Zakim]
conrad should no longer be muted
13:02:43 [Zakim]
-mhausenblas
13:02:45 [Gui]
Silvia: Great! Thanks
13:02:45 [Silvia]
Zakim, unmute me
13:02:45 [Zakim]
Silvia should no longer be muted
13:02:46 [Zakim]
-Yves
13:02:48 [Zakim]
-Erik
13:02:49 [Zakim]
- +49.300.aaaa
13:02:51 [Zakim]
-conrad
13:03:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-mediafrag-minutes.html Yves
13:03:10 [mhausenblas]
;)
13:04:16 [raphael]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:05:13 [Silvia]
read this part http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty#head-a83ba3666e7a437bf966c6bb210cec392dc6ca53
13:05:17 [Silvia]
explicitly mentions fragments
13:07:13 [raphael]
Thanks !
13:07:23 [raphael]
Silvia, may I bother you in private for 10 min ?
13:07:34 [Silvia]
I'm almost already asleep, but go ahead :)
13:07:50 [Silvia]
here on irc, I assume?
13:08:15 [raphael]
yep
13:26:16 [Zakim]
-Silvia
13:27:56 [Silvia]
forgot to disconnect :(
13:27:59 [Silvia]
too tired...
13:28:10 [Silvia]
g'nite all
13:31:14 [raphael]
zakim, bye
13:31:14 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +49.300.aaaa, Erik, mhausenblas, Yves, Davy, gui, +81.80.614.3.aabb, conrad, Silvia
13:31:14 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #mediafrag
13:31:21 [raphael]
RRSAgent, bye
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-mediafrag-actions.rdf :
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Erik to summarize the info from Jean Pierre, and mail it to the group [1]
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-mediafrag-irc#T12-12-40
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael to update resolution page, TC pages with that resolution [2]
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-mediafrag-irc#T12-27-54
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Raphael to bring the 'comma optional' discussion during next week telecon, in order to measure the price when releasing the syntax [3]
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-mediafrag-irc#T12-51-34
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Raphaël to bring the 'comma optional' discussion during next week telecon, in order to measure the price when releasing the syntax [4]
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-mediafrag-irc#T12-52-17
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael to add the HTTP status code for all TC [5]
13:31:21 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-mediafrag-irc#T12-53-41