13:57:20 RRSAgent has joined #sparql 13:57:20 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/23-sparql-irc 13:57:22 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:57:22 Zakim has joined #sparql 13:57:24 Zakim, this will be 77277 13:57:24 ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 13:57:25 Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 13:57:25 Date: 23 June 2009 13:57:29 zakim, this will be SPARQL 13:57:29 ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 13:57:43 Chair: AxelPolleres 13:57:53 dialing 13:57:58 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-06-23 13:58:12 bglimm has joined #SPARQL 13:58:38 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:58:42 +Lee_Feigenbaum 13:58:46 + +539149aaaa - is perhaps AxelPolleres? 13:58:56 +kasei 13:59:01 Zakim, mute me 13:59:01 kasei should now be muted 13:59:14 +??P9 13:59:17 zakim, ??P9 is me 13:59:17 +AndyS; got it 13:59:18 +cory 13:59:24 +bglimm 13:59:29 Zakim, aaaa is me 13:59:29 sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 13:59:32 Zakim, mute me 13:59:32 bglimm should now be muted 13:59:42 ivan has joined #sparql 13:59:51 Zakim, +539149aaaa is me 13:59:51 sorry, AxelPolleres, I do not recognize a party named '+539149aaaa' 14:00:01 Zakim, who is on the phone 14:00:01 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AxelPolleres 14:00:12 zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:00:12 ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:00:13 zakim, 539149aaaa is AxelPolleres 14:00:14 sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named '539149aaaa' 14:00:16 +Ivan 14:00:21 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:00:21 On the phone I see AxelPolleres?, Lee_Feigenbaum, kasei (muted), AndyS, cory, bglimm (muted), Ivan 14:00:23 + +1.919.663.aabb 14:00:32 Prateek has joined #sparql 14:00:32 zakim, AxelPolleres? is definitely AxelPolleres 14:00:33 I don't understand you, LeeF 14:00:36 SteveH_ has joined #sparql 14:00:37 zakim, AxelPolleres? is AxelPolleres 14:00:43 +AxelPolleres; got it 14:00:58 john-l has joined #sparql 14:01:32 zakim, aabb is SimonKJ 14:01:32 +SimonKJ; got it 14:01:47 zakim, cory is temporarily Prateek 14:01:47 +Prateek; got it 14:02:14 +john-l 14:02:29 +??P30 14:02:49 Zakim, ??P30 is [Garlik] 14:02:51 probably... 14:02:58 +[Garlik]; got it 14:03:06 LukeWM has joined #sparql 14:03:09 Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH_ and LukeWM 14:03:22 +SteveH_, LukeWM; got it 14:03:36 + +01212803aacc 14:03:36 Scribenick: John 14:03:38 Simon: I'm the primary IBM representative. 14:03:42 Scribenick: john-l 14:04:06 ... I've been working in the Rational group, on a new RDF-based platform, for 4 years. 14:04:24 + +2 14:04:42 ... We rely heavily on SPARQL, and are very interested in standardizing useful new features as a result. 14:04:51 +pgearon 14:04:59 pgearon has joined #sparql 14:05:07 ... We are primarily interested in aggregates, and in updates (in the longer term). 14:05:07 Zakim +01212803 is me 14:05:11 (probably) 14:05:22 zakim, 01212803 is iv_an_ru 14:05:22 sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named '01212803' 14:05:24 zakim, +01212803 is iv_an_ru 14:05:24 +iv_an_ru; got it 14:06:17 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-06-23 14:06:22 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:06:22 On the phone I see AxelPolleres, Lee_Feigenbaum, kasei (muted), AndyS, Prateek, bglimm (muted), Ivan, SimonKJ, john-l, [Garlik], iv_an_ru, +2, pgearon 14:06:24 [Garlik] has SteveH_, LukeWM 14:07:05 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-16 14:07:33 RESOLVED: Accept last week's minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-16 14:07:54 regrets for next week, will be at a Dagstuhl workshop 14:08:09 LeeF: Kjetil can probably scribe next week. 14:08:25 AxelPolleres: Anything new with our liasons? 14:08:27 q+ 14:08:42 ack ivan 14:08:48 ivan: OWL 2 is now in CR. 14:09:13 LeeF: That includes rdf:text? 14:09:16 ivan: Yes. 14:09:19 rdf:text is now rdf:PlainLiteral in OWL 2 14:09:38 thanks, bglimm, i couldn't remember what the new name was :) 14:10:04 ???: We now have a chair for the RDB2RDF WG. 14:10:13 s/???/Ivan/ 14:10:14 s/???/ivan/ 14:10:17 ??? = ivan 14:10:57 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/open 14:11:18 AxelPolleres: Can we close any of these actions? 14:11:45 LeeF: I need to swap back in to work on action 16. 14:11:54 Zakim, who is on the phone 14:11:54 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AxelPolleres 14:12:03 Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:12:03 On the phone I see AxelPolleres, Lee_Feigenbaum, kasei (muted), AndyS, Prateek, bglimm (muted), Ivan, SimonKJ, john-l, [Garlik], iv_an_ru, KjetilK, pgearon 14:12:06 Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:12:06 [Garlik] has SteveH_, LukeWM 14:12:08 On the phone I see AxelPolleres, Lee_Feigenbaum, kasei (muted), AndyS, Prateek, bglimm (muted), Ivan, SimonKJ, john-l, [Garlik], iv_an_ru, KjetilK, pgearon 14:12:10 [Garlik] has SteveH_, LukeWM 14:12:52 Sorry, phone troubles again. 14:13:32 trackbot, close ACTION-42 14:13:32 ACTION-42 Ask team contacts whether http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql-features/ is ok closed 14:14:30 ACTION-44: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0392.html 14:14:30 ACTION-44 Mail NOT EXISTS example. notes added 14:14:37 trackbot, close ACTION-44 14:14:37 ACTION-44 Mail NOT EXISTS example. closed 14:14:46 I would like to consider action 40 closed! 14:15:07 AxelPolleres: We had two F&R questions: first, the short name for the document. 14:15:40 ivan: We need to ask the domain admin for a green light on the desired short name. 14:16:32 The group discusses whether we need SPARQL versioning in the short name. 14:16:58 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-06-16#resolution_2 14:17:22 ACTION: Ivan to request sparql-features as short name from Thomas R 14:17:22 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Ivan 14:17:22 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail) 14:17:31 ACTION: Mr. Herman to request sparql-features as short name from Thomas R 14:17:31 Sorry, couldn't find user - Mr. 14:17:32 And the group confirms that we already resolved to go with "sparql-features" as the short name. 14:17:36 ACTION: Ivan Herman to request sparql-features as short name from Thomas R 14:17:36 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Ivan 14:17:36 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail) 14:17:40 ACTION: Herman to request sparql-features as short name from Thomas R 14:17:40 Created ACTION-48 - Request sparql-features as short name from Thomas R [on Ivan Herman - due 2009-06-30]. 14:18:31 chimezie has joined #sparql 14:18:58 +Chimezie_Ogbuji 14:19:33 chimezie: I haven't been able to review the F&R yet. 14:20:03 AxelPolleres: I think the remaining issues with the F&R document are small. 14:20:11 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0400.html 14:20:47 q+ to talk about very confusing CONSTRUCT example in subselect section 14:21:20 SteveH_: The CONSTRUCT example is not germane and confusing. 14:21:26 We agreed not to use it last week didn't we? 14:21:33 I thought so 14:21:57 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0398.html 2.4.3 14:22:18 SteveH_: In section 2.4.3. 14:22:35 LeeF: I also agree with striking that example. 14:22:39 -iv_an_ru 14:22:43 lternatively, analogously to the SELECT example from before, we can use a subquery with project expressions for this query 14:22:45 (oops) 14:23:08 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/#Project_expressions_syntax 14:23:32 suggestion is to remove first CONSTRUCT example 14:23:49 LeeF: I think including it in the document at this point goes too far. 14:23:58 PROPOSED: remove all below "To return an RDF graph..." in section 2.4.3 14:24:29 Remove just example "CONSTRUCT { ?x foaf:name { fn:string-join(?gn, " ", ?sn) } } 14:24:29 " 14:25:48 I don't like syntax of CONSTRUCT { ?x foaf:name { fn:string-join(?gn, " ", ?sn) } } but I'd keep it. 14:26:25 (we have CONSTRUCT { ?x foaf:name ` fn:string-join(?gn, " ", ?sn) ` } , maybe not the best variant too) 14:26:27 AxelPolleres: We need to remove the offending example and tweak the words to match. 14:26:45 "To return an RDF graph where the first and family names are concatenated to a full name such project expressions could be used" 14:26:49 suggestion ^ 14:27:27 AxelPolleres: Any objections? 14:27:53 PROPOSED: reword to "To return an RDF graph where the first and family names are concatenated to a full name such project expressions could be used" and remove first COPNSTRUCT example in 2.4.3 14:28:07 RESOLVED: reword to "To return an RDF graph where the first and family names are concatenated to a full name such project expressions could be used" and remove first COPNSTRUCT example in 2.4.3 14:28:19 It is "advice to the editors" isn't it? 14:28:29 yes 14:28:57 AxelPolleres: We've already taken care of 1 and 2 from the 8 points. 14:29:33 http://esw.w3.org/topic/SPARQL/Extensions/Aggregates 14:29:49 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:AggregateFunctions#Existing_Implementation.28s.29 14:30:03 AxelPolleres: We should take the list of implementors of aggregate expressions from the ESW wiki. 14:30:24 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ProjectExpressions#Existing_Implementation.28s.29 14:30:37 SteveH has joined #sparql 14:30:48 AxelPolleres: Take the existing lists from other pages and paste them into the document. 14:31:34 without the CONSTRUCT case (it's about being concise and focued on select expressions) 14:31:35 ivan: What policy should we have for adding implementations? Should we try to be exhaustive? 14:31:54 "The following non-exhaustive list includes some systems addressing this feature" 14:32:04 s/ivan/Kjetil/ 14:32:26 I share some of Kjetil's concerns 14:32:56 The document will be dated, I don't see the problem 14:33:04 Better to include implementations purely as examples, rather than try to make a comprehensive list 14:33:05 Not exhaustive - but the charter talsk about common extensions and experience which is relevant. 14:33:13 +1 to LeeF 14:33:16 No need to be exaustive, if we're in ;) 14:33:18 yes, not exhastive 14:33:26 what iv_an_ru says is exactly the problem :/ 14:33:34 this isn't an Implementation Report 14:34:14 I'd choose two implementations per feature, using "similarity to the spec" as a criterion. 14:34:19 AxelPolleres: Would anyone object to having a non-exhaustive implementation list? 14:34:54 iv_an_ru: there is no spec at this point 14:34:58 KjetilK: I object; I'm concerned about the persistence of the URIs. 14:35:29 q+ 14:35:33 q- 14:35:37 Yes 14:35:41 q+ 14:35:45 well, what we've specified fo "approximate" syntax and semantics resembles a spec. 14:35:47 I'd like to see the list left 14:35:48 q- SteveH_ 14:36:45 "The following non-exhaustive list includes some systems addressing this feature at the date of publication of the present document" 14:36:49 ivan: The text needs to make it clear that the implementation list could rapidly become out-of-date. 14:37:16 ... Also, it needs to emphasize that an up-to-date list *is* maintained on the Wiki. 14:38:05 I don't feel that the document stands on it's own sufficiently if it requires liks to the WG wiki 14:38:11 to justify itsself 14:38:14 Link to which wiki? ESW presumably since it outlives the WG wiki? 14:38:17 +1 14:38:38 +1 for ESW 14:38:54 +1, I also think the docs lifetime is similar to the WGs 14:38:55 AndyS: I think the F&R doc only has a limited span of usefulness, so I don't worry about the deep future so much. 14:39:11 q+ 14:39:33 AndyS: I would put the links in. 14:39:44 +1 14:39:44 ack me 14:39:52 We are required to have: "shown to exist in multiple, interoperable implementations" so useful info towards that 14:39:53 ack ivan 14:39:55 ack me 14:40:12 q+ 14:40:46 LukeWM: Do we still need complex use-cases, with more than one feature, for the F&R? 14:40:53 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/FRUseCases 14:41:47 Pretty sure it wasn't me requesting them :-D 14:42:01 AxelPolleres: Is there any objection to going to FPWD without the list of complex use-cases? 14:42:08 sorry LeeF, you're right, it wasn't 14:42:13 PROPOSED: go to FPWD without list of use cases 14:42:23 +1 14:43:06 proposal needs rewording! 14:43:09 indeed 14:43:37 RESOLVED: go to FPWD without list of use cases 14:43:51 Yes, I wasn't seconding that we can go to publication, only that I'm happy not to have the use cases 14:43:51 er? 14:44:29 Intent of the previous resolution is to assert that the group does not wish to wait on complex use cases before publishing FPWD, it is NOT a resolution to publish a document. 14:44:42 nor was it a resolution 14:44:46 AxelPolleres: We discussed the modeling of UNSAID without an actual negation feature in SPARQL 1.0 on the mailing list. 14:45:09 SteveH: I think we can continue with the feature described as is. 14:45:31 4) in my mail, doesn't need a todo. 14:46:31 AxelPolleres: #5 is just a typo. 14:48:19 SteveH: Adding the TODO to address #6 is fine. 14:50:04 AxelPolleres: I suggest no changes to the doc in response to #7. 14:50:20 q+ 14:50:52 ack SimonKJ 14:51:07 SimonKJ: We also support a protocol update, and I'll try to dig out a reference. 14:51:24 IBM's Jazz Foundation supports graph update via a RESTful protocol 14:51:30 I'll try and find a persistent reference 14:51:54 AxelPolleres: I suggest adding references to these existing implementations to the list for emphasis. 14:52:24 AxelPolleres: Is there anything else that would prevent going to FPWD? 14:52:36 +1 14:52:48 ..to ivan 14:52:57 ivan: I think we should make all the above changes and then make a decision. 14:52:58 too many changes to do conditionally, I thi nk 14:53:03 s/thi nk/think 14:53:07 I agree with Ivan 14:53:45 AndyS_ has joined #sparql 14:53:59 It's FPWD - can be a bit rough. Early is good. "It's agree to publish" not "agree with every detail" 14:54:30 LeeF: Let's make the changes, then at the beginning of the next meeting determine if there is any outstanding hesitation. 14:54:38 AxelPolleres: It'll also be good to have outstanding reviews completed. 14:54:38 q+ 14:54:45 ack AndyS 14:55:13 my action is still open too, for some reason http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/40 14:55:13 AndyS: Make changes and have reviews? 14:55:30 trackbot, close ACTION-40 14:55:30 ACTION-40 Review F&R document closed 14:55:37 SteveH, i don't know what you're talking about 14:55:39 ;-) 14:55:48 LeeF, the human Zakim :) 14:57:06 Axel arranges for serializing the updates and the reviews. 14:58:22 q+ 14:58:53 ivan: I need to finalize the charter for phase 2. 14:59:20 ivan: The charter should include every feature, including the time permitting features. They don't need detailed descriptions, though. 14:59:26 See section 1.1? 14:59:29 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/#Introduction_features 14:59:54 q+ 14:59:58 ack ivan 15:00:14 q+ to hopefully resolve this easily 15:01:13 iv_an_ru has joined #sparql 15:01:43 LeeF: I will take an action to draft text for all of the time permitting features by Thursday. 15:02:01 ACTION: LeeF to draft short descriptions for time-permitting features 15:02:01 Created ACTION-49 - Draft short descriptions for time-permitting features [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-06-30]. 15:02:55 AxelPolleres: LeeF can try to hand off his work to KjetilK for his edits. 15:02:56 -Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:03:00 -Prateek 15:03:01 -bglimm 15:03:01 -Lee_Feigenbaum 15:03:03 -SimonKJ 15:03:05 -KjetilK 15:03:07 -pgearon 15:03:09 -Ivan 15:03:11 -kasei 15:03:13 -john-l 15:03:14 Zakim, list attendees 15:03:15 -[Garlik] 15:03:21 kasei has left #sparql 15:03:25 Thanks for scribing, John. I'll do the minutes from here. 15:03:27 As of this point the attendees have been Lee_Feigenbaum, +539149aaaa, kasei, AndyS, bglimm, Ivan, +1.919.663.aabb, AxelPolleres, SimonKJ, Prateek, john-l, SteveH_, LukeWM, 15:03:30 ... +01212803aacc, pgearon, iv_an_ru, KjetilK, Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:03:32 -AndyS 15:03:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/23-sparql-minutes.html AxelPolleres 15:03:38 AxelPolleres, you don't need to do that 15:03:47 It's unrelated to the minutes procedure 15:03:52 FYI 15:04:31 I just like it to have *some* minutes out, since I still am not familiar with the other minutes process :-) you have to fill me in there at some point 15:04:48 Pretty sure I've sent email with instructions in the past :p 15:05:03 my bad then 15:05:07 LeeF, it was Alex Passant that asked for the complex F&R UseCases by the way 15:05:18 thx, LukeWM 15:05:43 AxelPolleres, not sure where though 15:06:50 Apologies in that case, didn't yet have a chance to look into it, dialing to RIF now, as mentioned time management should improve as RIF LC gets out, hopefully. 15:07:02 bye 15:07:20 -AxelPolleres 15:07:21 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 15:07:22 Attendees were Lee_Feigenbaum, +539149aaaa, kasei, AndyS, bglimm, Ivan, +1.919.663.aabb, AxelPolleres, SimonKJ, Prateek, john-l, SteveH_, LukeWM, +01212803aacc, pgearon, iv_an_ru, 15:07:27 ... KjetilK, Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:07:58 iv_an_ru has joined #sparql 15:08:38 SteveH has joined #sparql 15:11:51 LukeWM has joined #sparql 15:14:25 SimonKJ has left #sparql 15:25:48 OK, sent instructions to the list 15:25:54 No idea if everyone has permissions to do it or not 15:28:36 AxelPolleres has left #sparql 16:16:05 iv_an_ru has joined #sparql 17:05:32 Zakim has left #sparql 17:09:54 pgearon has left #sparql 18:34:10 SimonKJ has joined #sparql 18:34:19 SimonKJ has left #sparql