IRC log of svg on 2009-06-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:30:16 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/22-svg-irc
06:30:18 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
06:30:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
06:30:20 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:30:20 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start now
06:30:21 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:30:21 [trackbot]
Date: 22 June 2009
06:31:02 [shepazu]
Zakim, call shepazu
06:31:02 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; the call is being made
06:31:03 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
06:31:05 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
06:31:46 [jwatt]
jwatt has joined #svg
06:32:06 [Zakim]
+??P0
06:32:13 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
06:32:13 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
06:32:20 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
06:32:33 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller.a]
06:32:37 [heycam]
Zakim, [IPcaller.a is me
06:32:37 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
06:32:42 [jwatt]
Zakim, IPCaller is me
06:32:42 [Zakim]
+jwatt; got it
06:36:14 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
06:36:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shepazu, anthony, jwatt, heycam
06:39:59 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
06:41:48 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
06:42:15 [heycam]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0232.html
06:42:53 [anthony]
Topic: Remaining 1.1 errata to be folded in and tests to be written
06:43:00 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_Edition
06:43:22 [anthony]
AG: I have about two or three tests to write
06:43:35 [anthony]
CM: Still a few errata that needs to be folded in still
06:43:45 [anthony]
... clip path one
06:44:03 [anthony]
... and Liveness of getIntersectionList
06:44:10 [anthony]
JW: Still have to do that one
06:44:24 [anthony]
DS: JW had a few problems with the clip path one
06:44:42 [anthony]
JW: Re pointer events
06:44:44 [anthony]
DS: Yes
06:45:30 [anthony]
... don't think we should think about rolling this out until JW can get back and finish his quota
06:45:51 [anthony]
JW: I should get back to that next week
06:46:32 [anthony]
AG: Still need to run the script over test suite
06:47:37 [anthony]
CM: Is the comment history lost in the conversion?
06:47:39 [anthony]
AG: Yes
06:48:29 [anthony]
AG: I like what Erik has done on the wiki page with commenting what tests have been done
06:48:34 [anthony]
... and what needs to be done
06:48:37 [anthony]
CM: Good idea
06:49:09 [anthony]
... Mobile 1.1 spec was fixed to have dated links
06:49:22 [anthony]
... so we will be ok for publishing
06:49:30 [anthony]
AG: You did the changes CM?
06:49:33 [anthony]
CM: Yes
06:50:03 [anthony]
Topic: Mailing minutes to www-svg
06:50:15 [anthony]
CM: DS You've emailed out about this?
06:50:33 [anthony]
DS: I saw your reminder and have done it
06:50:51 [anthony]
... thought it would be a good idea before minutes get sent out
06:51:32 [anthony]
CM: It would be CL if he was here to discuss it further
06:51:39 [anthony]
AG: I'm ok with proposal
06:52:07 [shepazu]
s/It would be CL if he was here to discuss it further/It would be good if CL was here to discuss it further/
06:52:24 [anthony]
JW: Do we need to discuss further the disclaimer on each email?
06:52:28 [anthony]
DS: Don't think so
06:52:39 [anthony]
JW: Don't think we need to put a disclaimer when we send minutes?
06:52:54 [anthony]
DS: Anyone who is already subscribed to the list is already going to know about it
06:53:19 [anthony]
... lets not bother with sending a disclaimer
06:54:45 [anthony]
... so what this means when we send the minutes we will send them to www-svg like we would normally and BCC the public-svg list
06:55:04 [shepazu]
s/public-svg/public-svg-wg/
06:55:44 [anthony]
AG: Usage of public-svg-wg?
06:55:53 [anthony]
CM: Still used for technical discussion
06:56:05 [anthony]
DS: It says in the minutes it says most of our technical work will take place on the working group list
06:56:13 [anthony]
... that is what we are charted to do
06:56:49 [anthony]
... I think we should do what comes naturally next
06:57:06 [anthony]
... CL will probably want to conduct work on the working group list
06:57:29 [anthony]
... for conversations that start from minutes will be on the www-svg list
06:57:44 [anthony]
... the public might have comments
06:58:03 [anthony]
CM: We'd expect most of the comments from the public to be positive
06:58:54 [heycam]
(joke)
07:00:58 [anthony]
DS: Group will evolve how it wants to evolve
07:01:42 [anthony]
Topic: DVCS for SVG WG work
07:02:33 [anthony]
CM: I emailed Domenic on W3C who works part time on the systems team
07:02:51 [shepazu]
s/Group will evolve how it wants to evolve/conversations will happen wherever it seems more natural, even though charter historically says we'll work on WG list/
07:03:06 [shepazu]
s/Domenic/Dominic/
07:03:11 [anthony]
... and asked if it was possible to set up DVCS
07:03:38 [anthony]
... JW you have good experience with Mercurial
07:04:32 [anthony]
... Dominic replied to me saying the systems team doesn't have enough resources to set that up
07:04:43 [anthony]
... During the F2F we discussed one of us hosting the repository
07:05:03 [anthony]
... That has the downside of the repository not being on a W3C address
07:05:24 [anthony]
DS: Didn't Dom say that we could host it on W3C but someone in the team would have to do it
07:05:51 [anthony]
CM: He said it would be more cost effective for someone in the group to host it
07:06:07 [anthony]
DS: Wondering if I could put it on my personal space
07:06:13 [anthony]
... I think I can run scripts
07:06:18 [anthony]
... I'd need root access?
07:06:41 [anthony]
JW: It's a repository where people can copy from
07:06:44 [anthony]
... but can't push back
07:06:51 [anthony]
... unless you have root access
07:08:25 [anthony]
... If the team doesn't have the resources we either continue working with stuff
07:08:30 [anthony]
... that's getting further behind
07:08:37 [anthony]
... or break away and move to something new
07:09:31 [anthony]
DS: I'm not particularly comfortable with having work on another server
07:09:43 [anthony]
... makes it hard to find out what's going on
07:09:44 [ed_work]
nothing prevents someone from running a dvcs solution locally and then committing changes to cvs
07:10:10 [anthony]
... would rather tackle it head on and find resources for W3C space
07:10:16 [anthony]
... rather than push work out
07:10:23 [anthony]
... I'd rather push the issue with the systems team
07:10:31 [ed_work]
and yes, I agree with DS that the main repo should be hosted at w3c
07:10:34 [anthony]
... and at least get them to give me root access to set those things up
07:10:51 [anthony]
... are we experienced enough to know exactly what needs doing?
07:10:56 [anthony]
JW: No
07:11:05 [anthony]
DS: Step 1 is to know exactly what we are asking of them
07:11:18 [anthony]
JW: I can start step 2 or 3 before going to them
07:11:32 [anthony]
... another step to take is to set up a dummy repository
07:12:02 [anthony]
... so that people who are not familiar with DVCS can get to know it better
07:12:25 [anthony]
... does that make sense?
07:12:27 [anthony]
DS: No
07:12:47 [anthony]
JW: So it's just the members that will be using DVCS?
07:12:49 [anthony]
DS: Yes
07:13:15 [anthony]
.. so you're saying we should test it out to see if that's what we really really want?
07:13:24 [anthony]
CM: I have a feeling that the systems team want to set it up
07:13:32 [anthony]
... so it will integrate into their Database
07:13:44 [anthony]
... to make it easier to set permissions
07:14:03 [anthony]
JW: I've tried an SSH key thing with this and I don't know if it will that bigger change
07:14:12 [anthony]
... but I will check with the Mozilla people
07:14:25 [anthony]
... and get step by step instructions on what's involved
07:14:39 [anthony]
DS: You could check with them if they are willing to help the systems team to set it up
07:15:28 [anthony]
... should find other resources that are willing to help out the systems team
07:15:33 [anthony]
... not sure if they're open to that
07:15:41 [anthony]
... but if you can find out, we can go from there
07:15:55 [anthony]
CM: I do have root access on my hosted machine
07:16:05 [anthony]
... So if we want to set up a test machine
07:16:10 [anthony]
... I can put it on there
07:17:42 [anthony]
... one of the worries you had DS was it moves things more out of the team
07:18:03 [anthony]
DS: Yes and I think it's harder for people to discover what's going on
07:18:11 [anthony]
... and decreases the W3 value and brand
07:18:39 [anthony]
CM: It would be a shame to lose some of the services
07:19:15 [anthony]
... well experimenting with the system and JW finding out if he can get information on setting it up
07:19:19 [anthony]
... is a good way forward
07:20:27 [anthony]
... not sure how open the systems team is with getting help
07:20:35 [anthony]
DS: One problem is some things are team confidential
07:20:49 [anthony]
... we have people who are members of the team who are W3C fellows
07:21:07 [anthony]
... they have team access but work for another employer
07:21:29 [anthony]
... I don't see how it would be much different
07:22:42 [anthony]
Topic: public-svg-wg: SVG 1.2 Animation question
07:22:48 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/mid/A13D0B44629697468E9C6AE200CFD39A715E3A0A7E@mailkeeper.mdigitalm.com
07:23:08 [anthony]
CM: Someone from Quickoffice pointing out an error in one of the tests
07:23:28 [anthony]
... One of the tests is testing for calling beginElement and endElement for methods on timeControl
07:23:39 [anthony]
... and they insert begin and end on the elements
07:24:13 [anthony]
... and he thinks one of tests shouldn't begin an animation when beginElement is called
07:24:23 [anthony]
... the test description assumes that should work
07:24:30 [anthony]
... but according to the SMIL spec it shouldn't work
07:24:40 [anthony]
... he attached a reduced version of the test slide
07:24:49 [anthony]
... and I read through the SMIL spec
07:24:54 [anthony]
... and went through the test slide
07:24:59 [anthony]
... and I agree with him
07:25:25 [anthony]
AG: Is there any problems in Tiny at all?
07:25:32 [jwatt]
s/with him/with him, at least for the reduced version/
07:25:53 [anthony]
CM: All the info is in SMIL spec. We refer to it
07:26:08 [anthony]
... I will confirm that the actual problem is in the test
07:26:14 [anthony]
... and email back to the list
07:27:14 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to Check udom-svg-209.svg test case for the problem of beginElement pointed out by Quickoffice
07:27:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2626 - Check udom-svg-209.svg test case for the problem of beginElement pointed out by Quickoffice [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-06-29].
07:29:12 [anthony]
CM: We should fix any issues pointed out and republish the test suite
07:29:27 [anthony]
Topic: www-svg: icc color profile valid names
07:29:32 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/mid/9a7916a70906200154i3991d5e3sfda2ce940d7d6f20@mail.gmail.com
07:29:56 [anthony]
CM: Email about what are valid names for icc-profile
07:30:11 [anthony]
... CL added some syntax the colour module
07:30:23 [anthony]
... I have an action to port those changes back to 1.1 2nd edition
07:30:50 [anthony]
... someone should reply to him point back to the module
07:30:59 [anthony]
... and mention it will be ported across
07:31:38 [anthony]
Topic: www-svg: accessKey - label and alternative keys
07:31:43 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/mid/op.uvn9opyyidj3kv@zcorpandell.linkoping.osa
07:32:09 [anthony]
CM: Simon was asking about accessKeys
07:32:29 [anthony]
... I think he's asking about giving a particular label to animation starting and animation finishing
07:32:37 [anthony]
... and wants to extract from the document
07:32:48 [anthony]
... start animation and have some associated access key
07:33:16 [anthony]
... suggests a couple of ways to include that information
07:33:19 [ed_work]
hmm...I was almost certain that I did respond to this
07:34:05 [ed_work]
the problem with the label() syntax is that it causes the begin/end value to be interpreted as "indefinite"
07:34:30 [anthony]
CM: I guess it's syntax currently not allowed
07:34:33 [ed_work]
I'd originally thought it was per list-item, but it's actually the whole value
07:34:55 [anthony]
DS: I think accessKey is not so good
07:35:34 [shepazu]
s/not so good/pretty crappy/
07:35:35 [anthony]
... the access specification on XHTML 2 Access spec also has the same functionality along with some interesting functionality
07:36:02 [anthony]
DS: This is also something I'm looking at in the context of DOM3 Events
07:36:15 [anthony]
... on problem with accessKey is it only allows you to type characters
07:36:26 [anthony]
... it doesn't allow you to say on tap do this or on shift do this
07:36:46 [anthony]
... this is something that could be solved by the key identifiers in DOM3 Events
07:36:52 [anthony]
... so rather than giving a list of keys
07:36:59 [ed_work]
that's not the concern he's raising though, it's more about labelling what accesskey actions there are (for discoverability)
07:37:05 [anthony]
... they give a list of key identifiers
07:37:41 [anthony]
... I understand what ED is saying
07:37:50 [anthony]
... I'm just saying that patching up an old system is probably not a good idea
07:37:54 [anthony]
... I don't mind patching it up
07:38:02 [anthony]
... but I'd rather we came up with a better solution
07:38:30 [heycam]
ed_work, did your reply deal with the labelling aspect (modulo where you'd put that information)?
07:38:47 [ed_work]
it's really not about patching up, even in ARIA there's no way to label an attribute in a way that can be used for begin/end
07:40:04 [ed_work]
one solution might be to have some attribute to associate a <title> with a particular attribute, role or aria-*
07:40:08 [anthony]
DS: Within the constraints that Dr Olaf mentioned, I don't mind making the accessKey in SVG similar to the accessKey in HTML5 I just don't think it's a very good long term solution
07:40:24 [anthony]
CM: What about the issue of labeling?
07:40:37 [anthony]
DS: You mean discoverability?
07:40:39 [anthony]
CM: Yes
07:40:50 [anthony]
DS: Comes down to UA dependent
07:41:43 [anthony]
CM: I think he has particular UI in mind and wants to have some custom label string so it can be put in UI somewhere
07:41:48 [anthony]
DS: You mean labeling?
07:41:50 [anthony]
CM: Yes
07:42:30 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/
07:43:40 [ed_work]
adding an 'aria-attributelabel' that has as value the name of the attribute it describes maybe, then having multiple title elements as children of the animate/animateMotion or whatever
07:44:28 [anthony]
DS: Basically mimics a screen reader in some ways
07:44:52 [anthony]
... Tie something to a role or class
07:50:07 [anthony]
DS: Having the child text content of this element can be used the label for the navigation ring or something
07:50:17 [anthony]
CM: Instead of the title ement?
07:50:19 [anthony]
DS: Yes
07:51:13 [anthony]
... It doesn't define what the behaviour would be, you can either navigate to it or navigate to other elements
07:51:26 [anthony]
... in the case of SVG animation you might want to define a set of behaviours
07:51:31 [anthony]
... stop, start
07:51:54 [anthony]
CM: With the animation element, but with other elements perhaps other things
07:53:36 [anthony]
DS: I'd like to do things declaratively. I'd like to describe what those keys map to and then describe them in the body of the element
07:53:55 [anthony]
CM: Let's wait for ED to find the email reply and forward it to the thread
08:03:15 [Zakim]
-heycam
08:03:18 [Zakim]
-anthony
08:03:22 [Zakim]
-jwatt
08:03:30 [Zakim]
-Shepazu
08:03:31 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended
08:03:32 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shepazu, anthony, heycam, jwatt
08:09:57 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
08:09:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
08:10:03 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:10:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/22-svg-minutes.html anthony
09:59:40 [jwatt]
jwatt has joined #svg
09:59:58 [jwatt]
heycam?
10:00:29 [jwatt]
are we supposed to be able to have shell access to dev.w3.org/SVG via ssh?
10:00:57 [jwatt]
if we do
10:01:07 [jwatt]
and if they install Mercurial system wide
10:01:18 [jwatt]
I think we're actually just good to go
10:03:12 [jwatt]
hmm
10:04:10 [jwatt]
in fact, if we have shell access and each of us have a home directory, we p
10:04:15 [jwatt]
grr
10:04:44 [jwatt]
in fact, if we have shell access and each of us has our own home directory, we don't need any intervention from the sysadmins
11:50:56 [heycam]
jwatt, no we don't
11:51:12 [heycam]
shell set to /bin/false or something, i suppose
11:51:23 [heycam]
it only lets us use it for cvs
11:51:56 [heycam]
it'd also be good if we could use a machine other than dev.w3.org, since it seems overworked