06:30:16 RRSAgent has joined #svg 06:30:16 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/22-svg-irc 06:30:18 RRSAgent, make logs public 06:30:18 Zakim has joined #svg 06:30:20 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 06:30:20 ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start now 06:30:21 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 06:30:21 Date: 22 June 2009 06:31:02 Zakim, call shepazu 06:31:02 ok, shepazu; the call is being made 06:31:03 GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started 06:31:05 +Shepazu 06:31:46 jwatt has joined #svg 06:32:06 +??P0 06:32:13 Zakim, ??P0 is me 06:32:13 +anthony; got it 06:32:20 +[IPcaller] 06:32:33 +[IPcaller.a] 06:32:37 Zakim, [IPcaller.a is me 06:32:37 +heycam; got it 06:32:42 Zakim, IPCaller is me 06:32:42 +jwatt; got it 06:36:14 Zakim, who is on the call? 06:36:14 On the phone I see Shepazu, anthony, jwatt, heycam 06:39:59 Chair: Cameron 06:41:48 Scribe: anthony 06:42:15 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0232.html 06:42:53 Topic: Remaining 1.1 errata to be folded in and tests to be written 06:43:00 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_Edition 06:43:22 AG: I have about two or three tests to write 06:43:35 CM: Still a few errata that needs to be folded in still 06:43:45 ... clip path one 06:44:03 ... and Liveness of getIntersectionList 06:44:10 JW: Still have to do that one 06:44:24 DS: JW had a few problems with the clip path one 06:44:42 JW: Re pointer events 06:44:44 DS: Yes 06:45:30 ... don't think we should think about rolling this out until JW can get back and finish his quota 06:45:51 JW: I should get back to that next week 06:46:32 AG: Still need to run the script over test suite 06:47:37 CM: Is the comment history lost in the conversion? 06:47:39 AG: Yes 06:48:29 AG: I like what Erik has done on the wiki page with commenting what tests have been done 06:48:34 ... and what needs to be done 06:48:37 CM: Good idea 06:49:09 ... Mobile 1.1 spec was fixed to have dated links 06:49:22 ... so we will be ok for publishing 06:49:30 AG: You did the changes CM? 06:49:33 CM: Yes 06:50:03 Topic: Mailing minutes to www-svg 06:50:15 CM: DS You've emailed out about this? 06:50:33 DS: I saw your reminder and have done it 06:50:51 ... thought it would be a good idea before minutes get sent out 06:51:32 CM: It would be CL if he was here to discuss it further 06:51:39 AG: I'm ok with proposal 06:52:07 s/It would be CL if he was here to discuss it further/It would be good if CL was here to discuss it further/ 06:52:24 JW: Do we need to discuss further the disclaimer on each email? 06:52:28 DS: Don't think so 06:52:39 JW: Don't think we need to put a disclaimer when we send minutes? 06:52:54 DS: Anyone who is already subscribed to the list is already going to know about it 06:53:19 ... lets not bother with sending a disclaimer 06:54:45 ... so what this means when we send the minutes we will send them to www-svg like we would normally and BCC the public-svg list 06:55:04 s/public-svg/public-svg-wg/ 06:55:44 AG: Usage of public-svg-wg? 06:55:53 CM: Still used for technical discussion 06:56:05 DS: It says in the minutes it says most of our technical work will take place on the working group list 06:56:13 ... that is what we are charted to do 06:56:49 ... I think we should do what comes naturally next 06:57:06 ... CL will probably want to conduct work on the working group list 06:57:29 ... for conversations that start from minutes will be on the www-svg list 06:57:44 ... the public might have comments 06:58:03 CM: We'd expect most of the comments from the public to be positive 06:58:54 (joke) 07:00:58 DS: Group will evolve how it wants to evolve 07:01:42 Topic: DVCS for SVG WG work 07:02:33 CM: I emailed Domenic on W3C who works part time on the systems team 07:02:51 s/Group will evolve how it wants to evolve/conversations will happen wherever it seems more natural, even though charter historically says we'll work on WG list/ 07:03:06 s/Domenic/Dominic/ 07:03:11 ... and asked if it was possible to set up DVCS 07:03:38 ... JW you have good experience with Mercurial 07:04:32 ... Dominic replied to me saying the systems team doesn't have enough resources to set that up 07:04:43 ... During the F2F we discussed one of us hosting the repository 07:05:03 ... That has the downside of the repository not being on a W3C address 07:05:24 DS: Didn't Dom say that we could host it on W3C but someone in the team would have to do it 07:05:51 CM: He said it would be more cost effective for someone in the group to host it 07:06:07 DS: Wondering if I could put it on my personal space 07:06:13 ... I think I can run scripts 07:06:18 ... I'd need root access? 07:06:41 JW: It's a repository where people can copy from 07:06:44 ... but can't push back 07:06:51 ... unless you have root access 07:08:25 ... If the team doesn't have the resources we either continue working with stuff 07:08:30 ... that's getting further behind 07:08:37 ... or break away and move to something new 07:09:31 DS: I'm not particularly comfortable with having work on another server 07:09:43 ... makes it hard to find out what's going on 07:09:44 nothing prevents someone from running a dvcs solution locally and then committing changes to cvs 07:10:10 ... would rather tackle it head on and find resources for W3C space 07:10:16 ... rather than push work out 07:10:23 ... I'd rather push the issue with the systems team 07:10:31 and yes, I agree with DS that the main repo should be hosted at w3c 07:10:34 ... and at least get them to give me root access to set those things up 07:10:51 ... are we experienced enough to know exactly what needs doing? 07:10:56 JW: No 07:11:05 DS: Step 1 is to know exactly what we are asking of them 07:11:18 JW: I can start step 2 or 3 before going to them 07:11:32 ... another step to take is to set up a dummy repository 07:12:02 ... so that people who are not familiar with DVCS can get to know it better 07:12:25 ... does that make sense? 07:12:27 DS: No 07:12:47 JW: So it's just the members that will be using DVCS? 07:12:49 DS: Yes 07:13:15 .. so you're saying we should test it out to see if that's what we really really want? 07:13:24 CM: I have a feeling that the systems team want to set it up 07:13:32 ... so it will integrate into their Database 07:13:44 ... to make it easier to set permissions 07:14:03 JW: I've tried an SSH key thing with this and I don't know if it will that bigger change 07:14:12 ... but I will check with the Mozilla people 07:14:25 ... and get step by step instructions on what's involved 07:14:39 DS: You could check with them if they are willing to help the systems team to set it up 07:15:28 ... should find other resources that are willing to help out the systems team 07:15:33 ... not sure if they're open to that 07:15:41 ... but if you can find out, we can go from there 07:15:55 CM: I do have root access on my hosted machine 07:16:05 ... So if we want to set up a test machine 07:16:10 ... I can put it on there 07:17:42 ... one of the worries you had DS was it moves things more out of the team 07:18:03 DS: Yes and I think it's harder for people to discover what's going on 07:18:11 ... and decreases the W3 value and brand 07:18:39 CM: It would be a shame to lose some of the services 07:19:15 ... well experimenting with the system and JW finding out if he can get information on setting it up 07:19:19 ... is a good way forward 07:20:27 ... not sure how open the systems team is with getting help 07:20:35 DS: One problem is some things are team confidential 07:20:49 ... we have people who are members of the team who are W3C fellows 07:21:07 ... they have team access but work for another employer 07:21:29 ... I don't see how it would be much different 07:22:42 Topic: public-svg-wg: SVG 1.2 Animation question 07:22:48 http://www.w3.org/mid/A13D0B44629697468E9C6AE200CFD39A715E3A0A7E@mailkeeper.mdigitalm.com 07:23:08 CM: Someone from Quickoffice pointing out an error in one of the tests 07:23:28 ... One of the tests is testing for calling beginElement and endElement for methods on timeControl 07:23:39 ... and they insert begin and end on the elements 07:24:13 ... and he thinks one of tests shouldn't begin an animation when beginElement is called 07:24:23 ... the test description assumes that should work 07:24:30 ... but according to the SMIL spec it shouldn't work 07:24:40 ... he attached a reduced version of the test slide 07:24:49 ... and I read through the SMIL spec 07:24:54 ... and went through the test slide 07:24:59 ... and I agree with him 07:25:25 AG: Is there any problems in Tiny at all? 07:25:32 s/with him/with him, at least for the reduced version/ 07:25:53 CM: All the info is in SMIL spec. We refer to it 07:26:08 ... I will confirm that the actual problem is in the test 07:26:14 ... and email back to the list 07:27:14 ACTION: Cameron to Check udom-svg-209.svg test case for the problem of beginElement pointed out by Quickoffice 07:27:15 Created ACTION-2626 - Check udom-svg-209.svg test case for the problem of beginElement pointed out by Quickoffice [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-06-29]. 07:29:12 CM: We should fix any issues pointed out and republish the test suite 07:29:27 Topic: www-svg: icc color profile valid names 07:29:32 http://www.w3.org/mid/9a7916a70906200154i3991d5e3sfda2ce940d7d6f20@mail.gmail.com 07:29:56 CM: Email about what are valid names for icc-profile 07:30:11 ... CL added some syntax the colour module 07:30:23 ... I have an action to port those changes back to 1.1 2nd edition 07:30:50 ... someone should reply to him point back to the module 07:30:59 ... and mention it will be ported across 07:31:38 Topic: www-svg: accessKey - label and alternative keys 07:31:43 http://www.w3.org/mid/op.uvn9opyyidj3kv@zcorpandell.linkoping.osa 07:32:09 CM: Simon was asking about accessKeys 07:32:29 ... I think he's asking about giving a particular label to animation starting and animation finishing 07:32:37 ... and wants to extract from the document 07:32:48 ... start animation and have some associated access key 07:33:16 ... suggests a couple of ways to include that information 07:33:19 hmm...I was almost certain that I did respond to this 07:34:05 the problem with the label() syntax is that it causes the begin/end value to be interpreted as "indefinite" 07:34:30 CM: I guess it's syntax currently not allowed 07:34:33 I'd originally thought it was per list-item, but it's actually the whole value 07:34:55 DS: I think accessKey is not so good 07:35:34 s/not so good/pretty crappy/ 07:35:35 ... the access specification on XHTML 2 Access spec also has the same functionality along with some interesting functionality 07:36:02 DS: This is also something I'm looking at in the context of DOM3 Events 07:36:15 ... on problem with accessKey is it only allows you to type characters 07:36:26 ... it doesn't allow you to say on tap do this or on shift do this 07:36:46 ... this is something that could be solved by the key identifiers in DOM3 Events 07:36:52 ... so rather than giving a list of keys 07:36:59 that's not the concern he's raising though, it's more about labelling what accesskey actions there are (for discoverability) 07:37:05 ... they give a list of key identifiers 07:37:41 ... I understand what ED is saying 07:37:50 ... I'm just saying that patching up an old system is probably not a good idea 07:37:54 ... I don't mind patching it up 07:38:02 ... but I'd rather we came up with a better solution 07:38:30 ed_work, did your reply deal with the labelling aspect (modulo where you'd put that information)? 07:38:47 it's really not about patching up, even in ARIA there's no way to label an attribute in a way that can be used for begin/end 07:40:04 one solution might be to have some attribute to associate a with a particular attribute, role or aria-* 07:40:08 <anthony> DS: Within the constraints that Dr Olaf mentioned, I don't mind making the accessKey in SVG similar to the accessKey in HTML5 I just don't think it's a very good long term solution 07:40:24 <anthony> CM: What about the issue of labeling? 07:40:37 <anthony> DS: You mean discoverability? 07:40:39 <anthony> CM: Yes 07:40:50 <anthony> DS: Comes down to UA dependent 07:41:43 <anthony> CM: I think he has particular UI in mind and wants to have some custom label string so it can be put in UI somewhere 07:41:48 <anthony> DS: You mean labeling? 07:41:50 <anthony> CM: Yes 07:42:30 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/ 07:43:40 <ed_work> adding an 'aria-attributelabel' that has as value the name of the attribute it describes maybe, then having multiple title elements as children of the animate/animateMotion or whatever 07:44:28 <anthony> DS: Basically mimics a screen reader in some ways 07:44:52 <anthony> ... Tie something to a role or class 07:50:07 <anthony> DS: Having the child text content of this element can be used the label for the navigation ring or something 07:50:17 <anthony> CM: Instead of the title ement? 07:50:19 <anthony> DS: Yes 07:51:13 <anthony> ... It doesn't define what the behaviour would be, you can either navigate to it or navigate to other elements 07:51:26 <anthony> ... in the case of SVG animation you might want to define a set of behaviours 07:51:31 <anthony> ... stop, start 07:51:54 <anthony> CM: With the animation element, but with other elements perhaps other things 07:53:36 <anthony> DS: I'd like to do things declaratively. I'd like to describe what those keys map to and then describe them in the body of the element 07:53:55 <anthony> CM: Let's wait for ED to find the email reply and forward it to the thread 08:03:15 <Zakim> -heycam 08:03:18 <Zakim> -anthony 08:03:22 <Zakim> -jwatt 08:03:30 <Zakim> -Shepazu 08:03:31 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended 08:03:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, anthony, heycam, jwatt 08:09:57 <anthony> Zakim, bye 08:09:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg 08:10:03 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes 08:10:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/22-svg-minutes.html anthony 09:59:40 <jwatt> jwatt has joined #svg 09:59:58 <jwatt> heycam? 10:00:29 <jwatt> are we supposed to be able to have shell access to dev.w3.org/SVG via ssh? 10:00:57 <jwatt> if we do 10:01:07 <jwatt> and if they install Mercurial system wide 10:01:18 <jwatt> I think we're actually just good to go 10:03:12 <jwatt> hmm 10:04:10 <jwatt> in fact, if we have shell access and each of us have a home directory, we p 10:04:15 <jwatt> grr 10:04:44 <jwatt> in fact, if we have shell access and each of us has our own home directory, we don't need any intervention from the sysadmins 11:50:56 <heycam> jwatt, no we don't 11:51:12 <heycam> shell set to /bin/false or something, i suppose 11:51:23 <heycam> it only lets us use it for cvs 11:51:56 <heycam> it'd also be good if we could use a machine other than dev.w3.org, since it seems overworked