Shawn: Good morning all. Wanted to check in with where you are with Responding doc? ready to talk?
Most have reviewed, ready to talk
Shawn: What about slides?
Some are ready on slides, most not ready
Shawn: Main change made this week is to the beginning, tips and advice added.
... how does that work for everyone?
Yeliz: Like it.
Jennifer: Gets us into the document quickly. Suggestion was an "At a Glance" this fulfill s that.
Yeliz: And leads into the doc
Heather: Clear and concise
Shawn: Any objections to following this direction?
... Anyone look at the alternative that is posted and linked from the doc?
... Let's look at alternative draft.
Yeliz: My preference for the green box.
Doyle: agree with the green box
Alan: The green box is good but tile of section preferred on second one.
Shawn: Brainstorm title: quick tips, at a glance, overview, etc
... good thoughts but because they have other meaning, some may not work.
Doyle: Like "Overview"
Shawn: Or Key Points
Yeliz: Why not use tips, that is accurate.
Alan: Tips seem to imply you have read the doc
Shawn: Does "tips" lead you into the document as much as Key Points or something else?
Alan: Or would lead people to believe they did not need to read the rest of the document.
Jennifer: You won't be able to guarantee that in any case.
Shawn: Hoping that by putting this in the beginning we are trying to do just that.
Jennifer: The links will be helpful for bringing them into the doc.
Yeliz: Overview may be more useful for indicating that. But it is next to the page content and may be redundant...not sure.
Shawn: Are we happy to leave these comments for editor's descretion?
Shawn: Key Points?
... In alt draft, do you prefer all bullets or smaller bullet list with into and conclusion pulled out unbulleted?
Sharron: My preference is for fewer bullets, the alt version
Alan: Leave bookmark part as a bullet but add "Encourage you to read rest of the page"
Sharron: Good idea
Heather: Likes it dispalyed as all bullets
Liam: Yes, all bulleted
Shawn: How about the content?
... are these the important things to point out? The fewer points there are, the stronger they will be. It does not have to cover every point since the Contents outline is right next to it. The intention was twofold:
... meet the needs of those who are only willing to invest small amount of time. Second, to encourage them to spend a bit more time.
Liam: Thinks it is perfect, with a change to the subhead.
Yeliz: Like it.
Jennifer: Like it
Heather: Me too
Yeliz: Keeping records is not in the list.
Shawn: As we wanted to shorten the list, we tried to prioritize. Added h2 and put records in page contents, but thought it was not of highest priority to be in bullets.
Jennifer: I agree with this thinking and it is in page content.
Yeliz: Could it be included in "Use sample emails" bullet?
Shawn: Thought was to keep use of samples direct as it could be the ONLY thing we get folks to do.
Yeliz: Don't have strong feelings, so will not insist.
Shawn: Good, thanks
... Alan's point?
Doyle: People who come here are motivated to read the document. If they are so mad they are not willing to spend time, it won't help anyway.
Shawn: Opening blurb...Liam?
<yeliz> or this document guides you
Liam: I am not so keen on "this document ..." part. What about "this document shows you how"
Doyle: Yes, like the directness of it.
Liam: Here's how. Don't imply reader is ineffective.
Alan: Or - be more successful?
Most like "Here's how"
<shawn> ACTION: change intro to "Want to complain about an inaccessible website? Here's how." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/19-eo-minutes.html#action01]
<shawn> ACTION: reporting inaccessible doc - change intro to "Want to complain about an inaccessible website? Here's how." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/19-eo-minutes.html#action02]
<shawn> ACTION: reporting inaccessible doc - change "Tips and Advice:" probably to Overview (see minutes for other ideas & comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/19-eo-minutes.html#action03]
Shawn: Title is not quite consistant with first sentence?
Liam: Want to complain? Here's how to make the web a better place.
Doyle: Like it.
Liam: My concern is that the two things may not actually have such a direct link ...you have to accept that complaining will do that.
Doyle: It does make the point well. The logic may not need to be seamless.
Shawn: I wonder if inaccessible website term is too technical? Should we use problem?
... can we be more to the point?
Jennifer: In the title?
Shawn: In the first blurb.
... "are you having problems using a site"
Jennifer? Having trouble using a web site? Here's how to complain...
Liam: accessibility problem shows up 170 times per month
<yeliz> Experiencing accessibility problems and want to complain, here is how you can.
Liam: Inaccessible is good word to get in.
Shawn: It is in the title
Yeliz: Experiencing accessibility problems and want to complain, here is how you can.
<LiamMcGee> Here's a complaining masterclass. Whine to make the web better.
Shawn: Having accessibility problems and want to complain? here's how.
Liam: The accessibility master class to make the web better.
<shawn> Having accessibility problems and want to complain? Here's how you can help make the make the Web more accessible.
Liam:People are hesitant about complaining, the "make the web better" encourages them and reminds them that it is important.
Shawn: Here's one way that you can make the web more accessible.
<Shawn> Having accessibility problems and want to complain? Here's one way you can help make the make the Web more accessible.
Liam: Complain like a pro!
Shawn: Is that a third sentence, or a replacement?
... When it is short and choppy do we lose the message that you make the web better?
Heather: It is an attention getter, and can be more formal in following sentences.
<LiamMcGee> Complain like a pro, and make the web a better place.
Shawn: Want to encourage people with the fact that they CAN make a difference.
<Shawn> Having accessibility problems and want to complain? Complain like a pro, and help make the web a better place.
<Shawn> Having accessibility problems and want to complain? Here's how to complain like a pro, and help make the web a better place.
Heather: But heading should be more consistant.
... needs to grab people's attention.
... if I scroll through a lot of text, a heading like Complain like a pro will get my attention.
<LiamMcGee> 8 habits of highly effective complainers?
Shawn: Could bold the "Complain like a pro"
Liam: A single punchy sentence works as teaser to bring the reader into the list and then into the document.
Yeliz: What about complaining can make a difference.
Jennifer: complaining is repeated too often
Alan: Maybe leave this for now and think about it a bit with the general sense of finding that punchy sentence and avoiding repetitive phrasing and leave it for the editors.
<shawn> Having accessibility problems? Complaining can make a difference."
<LiamMcGee> The Dao of Complaining? The Art of Whine?
Sharron:People don't want to think of themseves as whiners, but can be profound with the Dao of complaining.
<shawn> ACTION: reporting inaccessible doc - change intro sentence.. see later ideas in minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/19-eo-minutes.html#action04]
Shawn: If nothing to add, let's look at Approach section. Overall points OK?
Yeliz: Like it.
Sharron: Yes, agree. Like the approach, have some wordsmithing.
Liam: Many rather than most web developers.
Shawn: Often unintentional
<shawn> ACTION: reporting inaccessible doc - "usually unintentional. Most web developers" -> "often unintentional. Many web developers" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/19-eo-minutes.html#action05]
Shawn: Send word smithing to list.
... to eo editor's lsit
... will publish this as a draft and get the slides out, so comment as you can.
... "Why Bother" section...OK?
Liam: It's great.
Shawn: Alan had a front of mind comment about this section...
... could be more direct.
Liam - Jennifer: Agree
<shawn> ACTION: reporting inaccessible doc - "but issues raised by customers or site visitors will be [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/19-eo-minutes.html#action06]
<shawn> more front-of-mind for the site owner and developer." -> "but issues raised by customers or site visitors may be given higher priority."
<shawn> ACTION: reporting inaccessible doc - "but issues raised by customers or site visitors will be more front-of-mind for the site owner and developer." -> "but issues raised by customers or site visitors may be given higher priority." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/19-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Shawn: might mention successful past cases to illustrate effectiveness of complaining.
... Alan's comment was to include something along that line.
Liam: editor's discretion
... "turn out to" is that a good phrasing?
<shawn> ACTION: reporting inaccessible doc - consider saying something about complaints have lead to changes (like in Alan's email, but not list specifics) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/19-eo-minutes.html#action08]
Shawn: Alan suggested to check in with disability orgs first.
... do we want to move it up in the reading order to make involving others a higher priority?
Jennifer: It complicates everything. They found this page, are ready to act, and we say back off and contact another org. Might be discouraging.
<shawn> Shawn: agree
Sharron: Even if there is another larger action, it's OK to also get individual complaints. Looking for others is not the first thing to encourage people to do
Shawn: Alan wonders if email is best way to complain? Consider spam filters, ignoring, lost in piles of general input, etc. Maybe a registered letter.
Liam: Email is easiest but could maybe include an escalation section.
Heather: It would be good. Even though some are mentioned, perhaps pull out further action more clearly.
... email is easiest so should come first. If ignored, phone call. Finally, letter and then don't know what else.
Shawn: So to respond to Alan, should recognize email as easiest, most likely and then be more explicit about follow-up.
Heather: There seem to be many contractions in the text. Is that intentional?
Shawn: Many older documents didn't use them at all. We have deliberately tried to be much more informal. What is your impression of that?
Jennifer: I was happy that the doc was less formal, I didn't even notice.
Heather: The way people pronounce, sometimes hard to distinguish "can" from "can't" etc.
Shawn: Screenreaders and translations seem to be OK with that, but appreciate the mention.
... often contractions, tone depend on audience and intention. This one is geared to consumers, our intention is to make it more informal.
... Comments on Response Time section?
... Post wordsmithing to eo editor's list, but how about the general approach? Recognizing constraints on organizations, but maintaining resonable expectation for response?
Liam: It's quite strong
Shawn: We usually do more polishing, but there is strong support for publication within our group. I propose that we publish, but with Draft note. Announce, encourage people to use and ask for general comment
... any concerns with that? what level of review do we still feel we need before publishing as a draft?
Doyle: I am very comfortable with publishing with this input and editor's discretion on implementation.
Sylvie: Happy for you to decide.
Shawn: Any objections to us publishing as a draft without further review?
All: No objections
Shawn: Wanted to make group members aware. You can be active in the group or monitor the mailing list.
... any volunteers? to participate or monitor that group?
Jennifer: Not avaialble now but can revisit in a month or so.
Shawn: If you know people interested who are accessibility aware, please suggest.
Sharron: Isn't Henny on that group?
Shawn: Maybe and Glenda Sims. Perhaps we could ask some of the leadership to actively liaise with us.
... still would like to have someone from EO at least monitor the list. So keep it in mind.
Shawn: Mostly we have been updating for content since the publication of WCAG2
Sylvie: Don't remember all the notes from first version, but was surprised that the description for non-sighted or audio only, is not at the beginning of the notes.
... are there things on the slides that need to be described?
Shawn: Our thinking was that it is a very important point and one that many presenters overlook. Often, even accessibility presenters say "As you can see on the slides.."
Sylvie: But why have that note buried in the middle?
Shawn: People may not always look at intro, wanted to repeat.
... maybe on Slide 2?
Sylvie: Yes, that would be good. Then, on Slide 7, milestones, there is reading order problem.
... can reading order be improved?
Shawn: Those are decorative images, it would be significantly challenging to change the reading order. Can we put something in the notes or what are your suggestions for addressing that?
Sylvie: Is the problem that the image is the acronym?
Shawn: No, they are just illustrations of the stages of the process. Is that much detail useful to know?
Sylvie: What do the letters mean?
Shawn: It is probably reading the alt text for the images. May have put alt for those images but not others.
Sylvie: It seems to be a summary of the stage or something because it reads letters, like an acronym.
Shawn: What is the text on Slide 15?
Sylvie: The text and then a strange link..file name for image.
Shawn: Do you know how to tag images in Powerpoint?
<scribe> ACTION: Shawn to work with Sylvie to tag images [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/19-eo-minutes.html#action09]
Yeliz: I would like to know that as well.
Shawn: can you give us a tutorial?
Sylvie: I can send to the list in French with Powerpoint 2007.
Shawn: Other comments on these slides?
... please look at Slide 8. New slide and I am troubled by both communicating positive/avoiding negative and also with being specific but not being to geographically focussed.
... thoughts on this addition of Slide 8?
Sharron: Perhaps could do something like what Andrew did with demographic info in WAI-AGE slides
Shawn: Sharron will do HTML updates. Where is everyone in terms of reviewing this so that we can coordinate the changes?
... can everyone state their place in the process of review?
... One new slides, new images, changing some terms. Little or no substantive change.
Liam: Probably I will have no edits.
Yeliz: Nor me either.
Shawn: We can post note that we would like input by some date and proceed.
Shawn: We are ready to publish with some review. Talked about adding an appendix that includes case studies, resources, etc. Any concerns with that? How might we vet the items to include in the appendix?
... if someone finds or sends in an article, how would we qualify it for listing?
Liam: I don't know.
... my perspective would be to read it and if I wanted to link to it, I would expect the W3C to overrule.
Shawn: And who would read it? who decides?
Liam: Don't know. For W3C I expect thare would be a complex process because it is a new procedure.
Shawn: That would be true previously, but seems more possible now. I propose that we have two EO members read a proposed article. If there are no concerns, we link to it. Sound OK?
Liam: What happens if we do post and there are objections externally?
Andrew: Another way of doing it would be to put it on the IG list with the proposal to list and see if there are objections.
Shawn: I would like it to be more simple.
Liam: Likely objections would be why is my article NOT listed rather than why list the one you did?
Shawn: But we could address that directly as it occurs.
Jennifer: So people can submit their own for consideration.
Shawn: Or could put "no follow" so that folks don't submit just for SEO
Liam: Yes, good idea.
Andrew: We may not know the validity of the science or methodology of the article. And is there any liklihood that we come across data that says we did this and got nothing out of it?
Shawn: Do you feel that you would like to discuss the issue on this list?
Shawn: Who is willing to be on the reading list?
Shawn: For next week, changes to slides, WAI-AGE (perhaps), instruction page, may have Biz Case appendix. Will firm up agenda. Not planning to meet July 3