IRC log of ua on 2009-06-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:45:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/18-ua-irc
16:45:39 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:45:39 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:45:41 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
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Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:45:42 [trackbot]
Date: 18 June 2009
16:45:52 [KFord]
Chair_ Jim_Allan
16:46:26 [KFord]
Regrets: JAN, Henny
16:50:23 [KFord]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
16:50:23 [KFord]
Agenda+ review 5/28 Meeting survey (no need to answer again) -
16:50:23 [KFord]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090527/
16:50:23 [KFord]
Agenda+ Survey for 6/4 meeting -
16:50:23 [KFord]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/
16:50:24 [KFord]
Agenda+ User Agent Accessibility Status - Kelly
16:50:26 [KFord]
Agenda+ Review any new proposals sent to list.
16:50:28 [KFord]
Agenda+ lock down current editors draft by 25 June for publishing new
16:50:30 [KFord]
Agenda+ public
16:50:32 [KFord]
working draft in July
16:50:39 [KFord]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:50:48 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:50:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/18-ua-minutes.html KFord
16:51:02 [KFord]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:51:26 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has joined #ua
16:52:43 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
16:52:43 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
16:52:56 [AllanJ]
rrsgent, set logs public
16:55:25 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:55:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/18-ua-minutes.html KFord
16:57:18 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
16:57:56 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
16:58:55 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:59:02 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
16:59:30 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:59:38 [KFord]
zakim, microsoft is kford
16:59:38 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:00:16 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:00:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:00:16 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:00:57 [Zakim]
+??P10
17:00:59 [sharper]
zakim, ??P10 is sharper
17:00:59 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:02:37 [Zakim]
+AllanJ
17:03:18 [Zakim]
+Kim
17:04:12 [AllanJ]
regrets+Jan, Mark
17:04:57 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
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+Greg
17:06:50 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda
17:06:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', AllanJ
17:07:09 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
17:07:40 [AllanJ]
zakim, take up agendum 1
17:07:40 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from KFord]
17:07:55 [AllanJ]
zakim, close agendum1
17:07:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
17:07:56 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:07:57 [Zakim]
2. review 5/28 Meeting survey (no need to answer again) - [from KFord]
17:08:53 [AllanJ]
KF: how do we document current status of UA accessibility
17:09:39 [AllanJ]
GL: suggest wikipedia browser features page
17:09:58 [AllanJ]
zakim, list agenda
17:09:58 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:09:59 [Zakim]
2. review 5/28 Meeting survey (no need to answer again) - [from KFord]
17:10:02 [Zakim]
3. Survey for 6/4 meeting - [from KFord]
17:10:03 [Greg]
I suggest posting feature lists on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_browsers
17:10:04 [Zakim]
4. User Agent Accessibility Status - Kelly [from KFord]
17:10:05 [Zakim]
5. Review any new proposals sent to list. [from KFord]
17:10:06 [Zakim]
6. lock down current editors draft by 25 June for publishing new [from KFord]
17:10:07 [Zakim]
7. public [from KFord]
17:10:08 [Zakim]
8. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from AllanJ]
17:10:23 [AllanJ]
zakim, take up agendum 4
17:10:23 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "User Agent Accessibility Status - Kelly" taken up [from KFord]
17:10:51 [AllanJ]
GL: reviewing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_browsers
17:12:33 [AllanJ]
KF: already gathering this type of information for another project...
17:12:45 [AllanJ]
...send to the list, and discuss further
17:14:02 [AllanJ]
...keep this informal
17:14:49 [AllanJ]
KF: 1. get some data 2. proper representation WAI
17:16:36 [AllanJ]
GL: could add columns to wikipedia page for additional accessibility items
17:16:38 [sharper]
SH: Intersection of UA / OS / AT and AJAX is at http://hcw-eprints.cs.man.ac.uk/70/1/Deliverable2.pdf
17:18:35 [jeanne]
action: KF to draw up proposal for tracking Browser accessibility comparison features.
17:18:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-199 - Draw up proposal for tracking Browser accessibility comparison features. [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-06-25].
17:20:26 [KFord]
Looks like some good info from Simon.
17:24:45 [AllanJ]
KP: need numbered links for speech browsing - very important
17:25:24 [AllanJ]
...wikipedia page is very important - getting information out to folks
17:25:44 [AllanJ]
KF: should this be a requirement for all UA?
17:26:24 [AllanJ]
GL: reccomendation (?) because it is so useful for mouse-impaired
17:27:36 [AllanJ]
KF: requirement vs recommendation
17:27:53 [AllanJ]
JS: level A, AA, AAA
17:28:04 [AllanJ]
KF: where does it fit
17:28:39 [AllanJ]
GL: how to determine difference between A, AA, AAA
17:28:55 [AllanJ]
...what is rigor for each.
17:29:50 [AllanJ]
...ISO - requirement - very important and feasible for browsers to implement otherwise it is recommendation
17:30:19 [AllanJ]
...also consider downsides, problems for other disability types, etc
17:30:33 [AllanJ]
...what is UAWG criteria
17:30:53 [AllanJ]
JS: defined in WCAG, have been using that
17:32:55 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html#uc-levels-head
17:34:27 [AllanJ]
SH: Adobe AIR - is it a user agent?
17:35:13 [AllanJ]
...looks like an application front end for specific web applications
17:35:42 [AllanJ]
GL: same category as perl or C# runtime. platform to build other applications
17:36:58 [AllanJ]
...may use web facilities. it is software that provides user agent functionality
17:42:29 [AllanJ]
issue: UA definition - Adobe AIR, Google Gears, UA behavior, stand alone web app that may or may not actually connect to the web. Is an html rendering tool that never goes on the web a user agent.
17:42:29 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-37 - UA definition - Adobe AIR, Google Gears, UA behavior, stand alone web app that may or may not actually connect to the web. Is an html rendering tool that never goes on the web a user agent. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/37/edit .
17:44:04 [Greg]
I suggest we define UA as software that accesses resources over the World Wide Web and/or uses W3C technologies.
17:46:46 [AllanJ]
zakim, close this item
17:46:46 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
17:46:47 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:46:48 [Zakim]
2. review 5/28 Meeting survey (no need to answer again) - [from KFord]
17:47:12 [AllanJ]
zakim, open next item
17:47:12 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "review 5/28 Meeting survey (no need to answer again) -" taken up [from KFord]
17:47:26 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090527/results
17:50:10 [AllanJ]
<proposed>
17:50:12 [AllanJ]
4.5.4 Portable Profiles: Provide capability to use preference settings across locations on a compatible system. (Level AAA)
17:52:05 [AllanJ]
GL: concern that preferences are not shared between location
17:52:37 [AllanJ]
..."transfer settings" seems more clear
17:53:34 [AllanJ]
4.5.4 Portable Profiles: Provide capability to transfer preference settings across locations on a compatible system. (Level AAA)
17:54:00 [AllanJ]
4.5.4 Portable Profiles: Provide capability to transfer preference settings across locations onto a compatible system. (Level AAA)
17:55:47 [AllanJ]
4.5.4 Portable Profiles: The user has the ability to transfer preference settings across locations onto a compatible system. (Level AAA)
17:57:00 [AllanJ]
Resolution: 4.5.4 Portable Profiles: The user can transfer preference settings across locations onto a compatible system. (Level AAA)
17:57:47 [jeanne]
action: JS to update document with new text for 4.5.4: 4.5.4 Portable Profiles: The user can transfer preference settings across locations onto a compatible system. (Level AAA)
17:57:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-200 - Update document with new text for 4.5.4: 4.5.4 Portable Profiles: The user can transfer preference settings across locations onto a compatible system. (Level AAA) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-06-25].
17:57:55 [AllanJ]
<new>
17:57:56 [AllanJ]
4.5.6 Restore to default. The user can restore preference settings to their default values. (Level A)
17:58:25 [AllanJ]
GL: Add "NOTE: Allowing the user to reset groups of related preference settings to their default values (e.g. reset keyboard shortcuts, reset colors and sizes of rendered content, etc.) is more valuable than merely providing the ability to reset all preference settings together, because some users will be unable to use the product without a few specific custom settings."
18:00:09 [AllanJ]
...Add "NOTE: The user must not be required to know or enter the default value."
18:03:23 [AllanJ]
...Add "4.5.x Restore defaults outside the UI: The user can adjust preference settings from outside the user agent user interface. NOTE: This allows the user to configure a product that would be inaccessible in its default state. EXAMPLE 1: A user agent ships with a separate utility for resetting or loading user preference settings. EXAMPLE 2: Holding down a modifier keys or specifying a...
18:03:24 [AllanJ]
...command-line switch when starting the user agent could force it to use the default settings, or previously used and known-good settings, or a specified user profile."
18:05:24 [AllanJ]
4.5.6 Restore to default. The user can restore preference settings to default values. (Level A)
18:06:15 [AllanJ]
NOTE: Allowing the user to reset groups of related preference settings to their default values (e.g. reset keyboard shortcuts, reset colors and sizes of rendered content, etc.) is more valuable than merely providing the ability to reset all preference settings together, because some users will be unable to use the product without a few specific custom settings.
18:06:31 [AllanJ]
The user must not be required to know or enter the default value.
18:07:39 [AllanJ]
4.5.6 Restore to default. The user can restore preference settings to default values. (Level A)
18:07:41 [AllanJ]
NOTE 1: Allowing the user to reset groups of related preference settings to default values (e.g. reset keyboard shortcuts, reset colors and sizes of rendered content, etc.) is more valuable than merely providing the ability to reset all preference settings together, because some users will be unable to use the product without a few specific custom settings.
18:07:43 [AllanJ]
Note 2: The user must not be required to know or enter the default value.
18:11:32 [AllanJ]
GL: do UA's have this feature. how important is this?
18:12:56 [AllanJ]
KP: important in training. Important for suers
18:13:21 [AllanJ]
JA: important, settings are complex, how to get back to base.
18:14:11 [AllanJ]
GL: pwd will always need some customization, reset groups
18:14:34 [AllanJ]
KF: how do we define groups.
18:15:20 [AllanJ]
GL: groups, recommendation...not rigorously testable.
18:15:38 [AllanJ]
JS: must be testable if in success criteria
18:18:11 [AllanJ]
KP: with speech, need to get back to know default, as away to move forward, when trying to add an interface on top of another
18:23:47 [AllanJ]
JA: if default state is all boxes unchecked, then user can reset by unchecking all checked boxes
18:24:26 [AllanJ]
KP: would be good to have both, change back individual settings, and big switch to reset all
18:26:50 [AllanJ]
action: JA to rewrite 4.5.6 group, individual and total reset
18:26:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-201 - Rewrite 4.5.6 group, individual and total reset [on Jim Allan - due 2009-06-25].
18:28:09 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:29:58 [AllanJ]
JA: there are many standards (ISO, ANSI) covering accessible applications on platforms,
18:31:05 [AllanJ]
...can UA refer to these as a base, and add UA specific success criteria for UA
18:32:46 [AllanJ]
JS: ATAG took this route, success criteria is to follow applicable platform accessibilty requirements
18:33:34 [AllanJ]
SH: problem. how can anyone test that anyone has followed application accessibility platform requirements.
18:34:22 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:34:23 [Zakim]
-kford
18:34:27 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:34:33 [Zakim]
-AllanJ
18:34:33 [Greg]
Slight correction: ISO 9241-171 and ANSI 200.2 are not platform specific, but rather designed to be applicable to any software running on on any platform.
18:34:35 [Zakim]
-Kim
18:34:35 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
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Attendees were Jeanne, kford, sharper, AllanJ, Kim, Greg
18:35:31 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
18:36:13 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/18-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:52:12 [AllanJ]
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