IRC log of swxg on 2009-06-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:01:14 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
13:01:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-irc
13:01:24 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
13:01:24 [Zakim]
sorry, tinkster, I don't know what conference this is
13:01:29 [rreck]
i didnt see my self join when i called in
13:01:29 [cperey]
cperey has joined #swxg
13:01:32 [tpa]
Zakim, this is SWXG
13:01:32 [Zakim]
ok, tpa; that matches INC_SWXG()9:00AM
13:01:33 [tinkster]
zakim, this is swxg
13:01:33 [Zakim]
tinkster, this was already INC_SWXG()9:00AM
13:01:34 [Zakim]
ok, tinkster; that matches INC_SWXG()9:00AM
13:01:39 [Zakim]
+??P19
13:01:40 [rreck]
where are the calling in messages?
13:01:41 [tinkster]
zakim, mute me
13:01:41 [Zakim]
tinkster should now be muted
13:01:45 [tpa]
Zakim, who's here?
13:01:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, DKA, pchampin, tpa, +39.011.228.aabb, ??P15, MIT531, tinkster (muted), +1.510.931.aacc, ??P19
13:01:53 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cperey, RRSAgent, Zakim, mattroweshow, PhilA, jsalvachua, oshani, claudio, tpa, AlexKorth, pchampin, rreck, melvster, yuk, caribou, bblfish, mischat, tinkster, karl,
13:01:58 [Zakim]
... trackbot, Cloud, dom
13:02:00 [Zakim]
+Phil_Archer
13:02:00 [AlexKorth]
zakim, ??P19 is me
13:02:06 [Zakim]
+AlexKorth; got it
13:02:21 [PhilA]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009May/0127.html
13:02:28 [Zakim]
+ +4222aadd
13:02:33 [bblfish]
hello
13:02:45 [Zakim]
+??P24
13:02:50 [Zakim]
+cperey
13:03:08 [Zakim]
-??P24
13:03:27 [tinkster]
danbri has sent regrets and neither of our other chairs seem to have turned up yet.
13:03:42 [rreck]
i saw harry online earlier
13:03:44 [Zakim]
+ +03491549aaee
13:03:45 [PhilA]
regrets+ Danbri
13:03:59 [jsalvachua]
zakim, aaee is me
13:03:59 [Zakim]
+jsalvachua; got it
13:04:06 [jsalvachua]
zakim, mute me
13:04:06 [Zakim]
jsalvachua should now be muted
13:04:09 [AlexKorth]
zakim, who is on the phone
13:04:09 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AlexKorth
13:04:18 [PhilA]
Chair: Harry_Halpin
13:04:31 [AlexKorth]
zakim, who is here
13:04:31 [Zakim]
AlexKorth, you need to end that query with '?'
13:04:41 [AlexKorth]
zakim, who is here?
13:04:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, DKA, pchampin, tpa, +39.011.228.aabb, ??P15, oshani (muted), tinkster (muted), +1.510.931.aacc, AlexKorth, Phil_Archer, +4222aadd, cperey,
13:04:44 [Zakim]
... jsalvachua (muted)
13:04:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cperey, RRSAgent, Zakim, mattroweshow, PhilA, jsalvachua, oshani, claudio, tpa, AlexKorth, pchampin, rreck, melvster, yuk, caribou, bblfish, mischat, tinkster, karl,
13:04:48 [Zakim]
... trackbot, Cloud, dom
13:05:03 [Zakim]
+ +0797094aaff
13:05:20 [rreck]
its a he
13:05:24 [cperey]
zakim, mute me
13:05:24 [Zakim]
cperey should now be muted
13:05:26 [Zakim]
+??P28
13:05:47 [yuk]
+yuk
13:06:07 [PhilA]
scribe: PhilA
13:06:13 [PhilA]
scribeNick:PhilA
13:06:24 [claudiov]
claudiov has joined #swxg
13:06:54 [claudiov]
Zakim, +39.011.228.aabb is me
13:06:55 [Zakim]
+claudiov; got it
13:07:26 [AlexKorth]
pchampin, indeed :)
13:07:52 [tinkster]
Zakim, please load agenda from http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.rdf
13:07:52 [Zakim]
I don't understand you, tinkster
13:08:16 [tinkster]
Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.rdf
13:08:16 [Zakim]
working on it, tinkster
13:08:18 [Zakim]
done reading agenda, tinkster
13:08:28 [tpa]
Zakim, what's on the agenda?
13:08:30 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
13:08:32 [hajons]
hajons has joined #swxg
13:08:37 [tpa]
yup, still not working
13:08:56 [DKA]
DKA has joined #swxg
13:09:09 [DKA]
zakim, who's here?
13:09:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, DKA, pchampin, tpa, claudiov, ??P15, oshani (muted), tinkster (muted), +1.510.931.aacc, AlexKorth, Phil_Archer, +4222aadd, cperey (muted),
13:09:12 [Zakim]
... jsalvachua (muted), +0797094aaff, ??P28
13:09:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see DKA, hajons, claudiov, cperey, RRSAgent, Zakim, mattroweshow, PhilA, jsalvachua, oshani, tpa, AlexKorth, pchampin, rreck, melvster, yuk, caribou, bblfish, mischat,
13:09:15 [Zakim]
... tinkster, karl, trackbot, Cloud, dom
13:09:34 [fuming]
fuming has joined #swxg
13:09:38 [Zakim]
+ +46.1.08.01.aagg
13:10:04 [Zakim]
+Carine
13:10:24 [PhilA]
Context: DKA in an airport lounge, Harry should be joining soon
13:10:33 [tpa]
agenda+ Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-06-17T13:00-15:00Z
13:10:35 [tinkster]
TOPIC:Discussion on Context
13:10:39 [PhilA]
DKA: Wasnt to jump staright in to the discussion on context
13:10:41 [tpa]
agenda+ Discussion on Context
13:10:50 [tpa]
agenda+ General Organization and Task Forces
13:10:59 [tpa]
agenda+ Invited Guests
13:11:01 [PhilA]
DKA: Claudio - you and I have been most vociferous on this topic
13:11:07 [tpa]
agenda+ Creating User Stories on the Wiki
13:11:09 [PhilA]
... so can we kick off this privacy nad context TF
13:11:13 [tpa]
agenda+ Social Network Matrix
13:11:20 [PhilA]
... so are you able to take a leadership role?
13:11:38 [MacTed]
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13:11:48 [PhilA]
Claudio: In principle it would be nice
13:11:56 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
13:11:57 [PhilA]
.. but like everyone, I have several engagements
13:12:18 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed
13:12:20 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
13:12:29 [PhilA]
... but it's difficult to understand how the TF relates to the rest of the group. If TI has some goals that it thinks are crucial?
13:12:46 [PhilA]
... I need to process my first proposal and see what the discussion leads to
13:12:55 [PhilA]
DKA: You've falled into my trap :-)
13:13:02 [PhilA]
s/falled/fallen/
13:13:18 [PhilA]
DKA: Can you take your original proposal; and subsequent discussion and formulate that as a TF charter?
13:13:19 [tinkster]
s/TI has/TF has/
13:14:11 [PhilA]
DKA: The XG needs to agree on the context charter so that the TF's work can be defined
13:14:12 [tinkster]
s/TF has/Telecom Italia has/
13:14:39 [PhilA]
Claudio: Again, nothing against creating that document but it would be useful to get some more comments
13:15:07 [FabGandon]
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13:15:10 [PhilA]
... I want to be usre that we're progressing in a way that makes sense
13:15:15 [PhilA]
... (to the group)
13:15:47 [cperey]
also there is the question of whether the Task Force will cover privacy
13:15:48 [PhilA]
... is it in scope to specify APIs for instance? Are we to create a vocabulary? Is it reasonable to achive those goals?
13:15:49 [bblfish]
perhaps we need examples of contexts, use cases make sense
13:16:04 [PhilA]
DKA: Can you point us to an initial e-mail and thtead?
13:16:12 [PhilA]
... I think the group needs a summary to look at
13:16:13 [tinkster]
Current deliverables <http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_TF#Deliverables> look good and achievable to me.
13:16:27 [PhilA]
Cl;audio: There's a pointer on the scoail web wiki page
13:16:29 [cperey]
is this is a Task Force for Context + Privacy? or is there Task Force for Context and another Task Force for Privacy/Security
13:16:43 [PhilA]
Claudio: the link says sometehing like "this is an initial scope that the TF might do"
13:16:46 [tinkster]
Claudio's scoping message - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Jun/0020.html
13:16:50 [danbri]
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13:16:52 [fuming]
fuming has joined #swxg
13:17:26 [PhilA]
DKA: SO my initial feedback would be that the soecification of APIs is probably out of scope but a selection of existing APIs would be in scope
13:17:29 [bblfish]
what is context? It seems incredibly general.
13:17:38 [mattroweshow]
bblfish+1
13:17:42 [Zakim]
+FabGandon
13:17:43 [pchampin]
bblfish+1
13:17:46 [PhilA]
... So that fits in with the ethos of an XG - not to develop new technologies - more how to use exsting tech
13:17:51 [bblfish]
is it just another way to speak about named graphs?
13:17:59 [PhilA]
DKA: But I definitely agree that a catalogue of different social contexts is useful
13:18:15 [PhilA]
... a voca and privacy model would then flow from that
13:18:26 [PhilA]
s/voca and/vocab and/
13:18:34 [PhilA]
DKA: I just have a problem with the spec of an API
13:18:37 [DKA]
q?
13:19:01 [PhilA]
Claudio: The only info I have on this is the term context. It may be huge and include a lot of things
13:19:10 [Zakim]
+karl
13:19:17 [PhilA]
... then it's really related to some concept of an activity that a user may be performing at a given time
13:19:20 [karl]
zakim, mute me
13:19:20 [Zakim]
karl should now be muted
13:19:23 [mattroweshow]
context is abstract, specialisations need to be defined
13:19:37 [PhilA]
... this is like an extended version of the presence info
13:19:48 [tinkster]
bblfish, my definition of context is up-to-the-minute profile info - i.e., not foaf:based_near, but where is the person right now; what devices are they currently using; are they asleep, so not to be disturbed; what music are they listening to...
13:19:52 [Zakim]
+??P33
13:19:56 [danbri]
zakim, ??P33 is danbri
13:19:56 [Zakim]
+danbri; got it
13:20:00 [PhilA]
Claudio: I can give more info about my context that might be useful to people I'm connected to
13:20:14 [bblfish]
ah ok. Don't call me, I am asleep.
13:20:24 [cperey]
context could also include "I'm in a call
13:20:29 [bblfish]
There was an ontology for what I am doing now
13:20:31 [PhilA]
... the user may be working, playing, travelling etc.
13:20:50 [mattroweshow]
so context embodies the current status also
13:21:23 [PhilA]
Claudio: we have a few use cases that may point to exploitation possibilitie4s
13:21:38 [PhilA]
... maybe something like 50% of your friends on a train, one walking, one shopping etc
13:21:52 [PhilA]
... these fit in with our definition of the term 'context'
13:22:07 [AlexKorth]
totally useful but for me subdomain of privacy
13:22:25 [bblfish]
ok, yes, makes sense
13:22:31 [bblfish]
it would be easy to build a vocab like that
13:22:36 [PhilA]
DKA: Thanks for that
13:22:44 [mattroweshow]
Really good explanation of context
13:22:57 [AlexKorth]
vocab could be similar to activitystrea.ms
13:23:43 [PhilA]
[ASIDE]: Discussion of who will chair now that DKA has to board a plane. Dan Bri takes over...
13:23:55 [PhilA]
chair: Dan_Appelquist
13:24:02 [PhilA]
chair: Dan_Brickley
13:24:08 [rreck]
i define context based on groundings
13:24:15 [rreck]
in time and space
13:24:44 [bblfish]
ok I have it http://crschmidt.net/foaf/menow/
13:25:10 [danbri]
can someone make an attempt at writing down what daniela said?
13:25:13 [cperey]
should the definition include a social element?
13:25:33 [PhilA]
Claudio: Having heard DKA's summary I think yes, that's good. I think we're close to a definition of context
13:25:39 [bblfish]
the definition of context is very prgamatic.
13:25:46 [PhilA]
Danbri: I'm afraid I can in half way through
13:26:00 [PhilA]
... my instinct is to get started withthe work as we atre an XG not a WG
13:26:16 [PhilA]
DKA: We can't keep messing around talking about what we're going to talk about
13:26:39 [PhilA]
??: Even if defining an API is out of scope, I guess it's not out of scope to recommend that someone should?
13:26:50 [bblfish]
here is another ontology: http://www.milanstankovic.org/opo/ontology.html
13:27:01 [hajons]
HÃ¥kan = hajons
13:27:06 [PhilA]
DKA: Surely we should be working out where the gaps are and who should fill them
13:27:15 [PhilA]
q+
13:27:21 [PhilA]
ack
13:27:23 [bblfish]
that is the "Online Presence Ontology"
13:27:23 [danbri]
ack phila
13:27:29 [PhilA]
ack Phil
13:28:12 [PhilA]
action: PhilA to work with Claudio on taking the context discussion to a proposal
13:28:12 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - PhilA
13:28:24 [tinkster]
We skipped item 1 and have done item 2 noe.
13:28:26 [tpa]
Zakim, what's on the agenda?
13:28:26 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
13:28:27 [Zakim]
1. Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-06-17T13:00-15:00Z [from tpa]
13:28:28 [Zakim]
2. Discussion on Context [from tpa]
13:28:29 [tinkster]
s/noe/now/
13:28:30 [Zakim]
3. General Organization and Task Forces [from tpa]
13:28:31 [Zakim]
4. Invited Guests [from tpa]
13:28:32 [Zakim]
5. Creating User Stories on the Wiki [from tpa]
13:28:34 [Zakim]
6. Social Network Matrix [from tpa]
13:28:38 [PhilA]
action:Phil_Archer to work with Clausio to take context discussion to a TF proposal
13:28:47 [AdamB]
AdamB has joined #swxg
13:28:48 [tpa]
Zakime, take up agendum 3
13:28:48 [danbri]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:28:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, DKA, pchampin, tpa, claudiov, ??P15, oshani (muted), tinkster (muted), +1.510.931.aacc, AlexKorth, Phil_Archer, +4222aadd, cperey (muted),
13:28:52 [Zakim]
... jsalvachua (muted), +0797094aaff, ??P28, +46.1.08.01.aagg, Carine, MacTed, FabGandon, karl (muted), danbri
13:28:54 [karl]
zakim, unmute me
13:28:54 [Zakim]
karl should no longer be muted
13:28:56 [tpa]
Zakim, take up agendum 3
13:28:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "General Organization and Task Forces" taken up [from tpa]
13:29:01 [PhilA]
rrsagent, make minutes public
13:29:01 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', PhilA. Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:29:16 [PhilA]
DanBri: Just sorting out who is a TF leader
13:29:25 [danbri]
3. Task Forces
13:29:25 [danbri]
+ Do we have confirmed leaders for Context and Privacy Task
13:29:25 [danbri]
Force (Karl Dubost)?
13:29:28 [danbri]
is that 1 or 2, ...etc
13:30:00 [danbri]
(who said "hi"?)
13:30:24 [PhilA]
DKA: I think that Claudio and PhilA need to put toegther a more fleshed out TF goal in the wiki
13:30:32 [danbri]
daniela: claudio and phil will work on a fleshed-out scope in wiki, then if Claudio's happy with goals he is happy to be named on tf leader
13:30:33 [PhilA]
... that doen, he, Claudio, might then be TF leader
13:30:43 [PhilA]
.,.. the though thing is getting consensus on the TF scope
13:30:50 [jsalvachua]
zakim, unmute me
13:30:52 [Zakim]
jsalvachua should no longer be muted
13:30:54 [PhilA]
DanBri: did we have a leader on protability?
13:31:07 [PhilA]
PeteFern: I think I was up for that
13:31:10 [danbri]
For Portability and Architectures Task Force (@@)?
13:31:21 [karl]
trackbot, comment ACTION-35 seny a message to Evan about joining the July 1st call. No answer yet. Will followup in 2 days in no answer.
13:31:21 [trackbot]
ACTION-35 Follow up with Evan, see if July 1st date to talk about microblogging works. notes added
13:31:21 [mischat]
via harry's last email : Context Ontology : http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-dcontology-20090616/
13:31:23 [PhilA]
??: I was trying to update the wiki for portability and architecture
13:31:25 [danbri]
OK, Pete + ?? (missed name)
13:31:36 [PhilA]
danbri: is the wiki update going OK? Is it working?
13:32:03 [tinkster]
joachim salvachua
13:32:09 [danbri]
"Has Joaquin found scoping to be better for
13:32:09 [danbri]
portability? Can we have two leaders per task force? Do we
13:32:09 [danbri]
have critical mass, and if so, can we get telecon times for
13:32:09 [danbri]
them?"
13:32:31 [PhilA]
Joachim: I don't know if we have critical mass for this
13:32:36 [danbri]
(can someone post wiki pointer?)
13:32:40 [PhilA]
... we are trying to organise a call
13:32:47 [mattroweshow]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Portability_Architecture_TF
13:32:48 [PhilA]
... or an IRC meeting?
13:33:06 [PhilA]
... we can discuss the differnet tasks and see how we can organise portabuility and architecture
13:33:18 [PhilA]
danbri: so could you take an actionm to do that?
13:33:21 [PhilA]
Joachim: yes
13:33:53 [PhilA]
action: Joachim to organise a meeting to discuss the scope of the portability and architecture TF
13:33:53 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Joachim
13:34:21 [danbri]
trackbot, help
13:34:21 [trackbot]
See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
13:34:44 [tinkster]
trackbot, status
13:34:51 [PhilA]
action: jsalvachua to organise meeteing to discuss scope of portability and architecture TF
13:34:51 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - jsalvachua
13:35:03 [caribou]
user is joaquin
13:35:24 [PhilA]
action: joaquin to organise meeteing to discuss scope of portability and architecture TF
13:35:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-40 - Organise meeteing to discuss scope of portability and architecture TF [on joaquin Salvachua - due 2009-06-24].
13:35:55 [PhilA]
danbri: Dan A where are we up to wrt invited guests?
13:35:56 [tpa]
Zakim, take up agendum 4
13:35:56 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Invited Guests" taken up [from tpa]
13:36:10 [PhilA]
DKA: I think we need more inter-chair coordination
13:36:26 [tinkster]
Do we need a chairing list like the scribes list?
13:36:26 [jsalvachua]
zakim, mute me
13:36:26 [Zakim]
jsalvachua should now be muted
13:36:29 [PhilA]
... my whole last week has been taken up woth W3C working group meetings and strange Greek visitors
13:36:36 [PhilA]
s/woth/with/
13:37:07 [PhilA]
DKA: Informally, the invited guests I've had most feedback on is Sky Evans from the microblogging community
13:37:27 [tinkster]
s/Sky Evans/this guy, Evan/
13:37:34 [danbri]
resolved: danbri invite Evan P. of identi.ca to a call
13:37:36 [Zakim]
-DKA
13:37:43 [PhilA]
danbri to line up Evan as guest speaker
13:37:44 [danbri]
s/resolved/action/
13:37:50 [PhilA]
action: danbri to line up Evan as guest speaker
13:37:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-41 - Line up Evan as guest speaker [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-06-24].
13:38:14 [PhilA]
??: I had an action item to work with Harry to invite Nathan Eagle as a guest speaker
13:38:17 [tpa]
Zakim, take up agendum 5
13:38:17 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Creating User Stories on the Wiki" taken up [from tpa]
13:38:18 [bblfish]
cool
13:38:25 [bblfish]
I added a few 1-5 user stories
13:38:30 [bblfish]
Would like some feedback
13:38:47 [hajons]
?? = hajons = HÃ¥kan
13:38:58 [danbri]
zakim, unmute oshani
13:38:58 [Zakim]
oshani should no longer be muted
13:39:05 [PhilA]
There's some stuff about take down on the wiki
13:39:13 [danbri]
close 2x danbri actions
13:39:16 [karl]
danbri: :) action-41 and action-35 are the same no?
13:39:17 [danbri]
continue oshani
13:39:17 [PhilA]
Oshani: Hi, yes, I didn't write it formally but I will do
13:39:27 [danbri]
(similar, karl. similar ;)
13:39:30 [karl]
s/danbri:/danbri,/
13:39:33 [PhilA]
Oshani: so you want me to write it based on the current template?
13:39:47 [PhilA]
... (the one Karl sent out)
13:39:55 [PhilA]
danbri: That would be ideal but we're not fussy
13:40:08 [PhilA]
q+
13:40:14 [danbri]
ack phila
13:40:19 [tpa]
q+
13:40:33 [danbri]
phil "i have a couple ... need to check not already done ... can add in next 48 hours...
13:40:46 [danbri]
"things around safety, people for whom their online id is their real id ...
13:40:57 [danbri]
"also people avoiding certain harmful ppl
13:41:04 [tinkster]
More user stories: danbri, maybe your provenance of microblogs question could be added - tracing back forwarded messages.
13:41:06 [mattroweshow]
interesting interpretation of online existence
13:41:32 [PhilA]
danbri: Harry brought up the Iram situation - can that ne a uc?
13:41:46 [PhilA]
tpa: I wanted to talk a little about cleaning up some of the ones already there
13:41:48 [danbri]
tinkster, care to attempt that writeup?
13:41:55 [tinkster]
yes, sure.
13:42:03 [danbri]
thx. can you action yourself?
13:42:11 [oshani]
q+ re: deliverable of the privacy TF
13:42:12 [PhilA]
tpa: I'm about to throw a third template into the system. What are the plans for the user stories?
13:42:30 [tinkster]
ACTION Toby to document danbri's microblogging provenance question as a user story.
13:42:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-42 - Document danbri's microblogging provenance question as a user story. [on Toby Inkster - due 2009-06-24].
13:42:35 [karl]
q+ about the user stories
13:42:37 [PhilA]
... is it going to be a running thing? Will it be locked at some point? What is the expected use of the edited version?
13:42:44 [karl]
q+
13:42:49 [tpa]
q-
13:42:54 [bblfish]
I think we add stories during the life of the XG, but as we go on they will settle
13:43:07 [karl]
q+ to talk about the user stories
13:43:18 [PhilA]
danbri: The primary deliverable from this group is the report. That said, the repository of use cases is going to be useul for everyone to see what tech needs to address
13:43:57 [PhilA]
karL: I think the user stories can be used when we're writing the formal spec - use them to define what we want to write about
13:44:14 [danbri]
q?
13:44:17 [danbri]
ack karl
13:44:17 [Zakim]
karl, you wanted to talk about the user stories
13:44:24 [PhilA]
Tim: I'm going to try nad converge the different things into one
13:44:33 [PhilA]
... I don't expect too much of a change from what Karl's template did
13:44:55 [PhilA]
scribe notes that I think the previous 'tpa' accreditation was probably wrong
13:45:31 [PhilA]
Tim: I've already seen some repitition. I've recommended that we use character names with first names from the alphabet
13:46:03 [PhilA]
Tim: I think if I create different characters, that might generate new cases.
13:46:06 [hhalpin]
hhalpin has joined #swxg
13:46:13 [PhilA]
danbri: Endorse the point about covering people from differnet backgrounds
13:46:17 [bblfish]
+1 good idea with multiple backgrounds
13:46:25 [danbri]
action: danbri write up orkut/i18n/"looking for" issue
13:46:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-43 - Write up orkut/i18n/"looking for" issue [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-06-24].
13:46:38 [tinkster]
Good cast of characters to start with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_and_Bob
13:46:56 [PhilA]
TIm: What would be nice would be that any story arriving after next week did so using the template
13:47:04 [danbri]
cf http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/personas
13:47:06 [PhilA]
danbri: do you need a new action item for this?
13:47:08 [PhilA]
Tim: no
13:47:17 [PhilA]
danbri: Harry, you're here?
13:47:20 [danbri]
hhalpin, will you join us?
13:47:31 [PhilA]
oshani: I'm confused about the final deliverable of the privacy TF?
13:47:47 [PhilA]
... I'd like it to be more specific
13:47:49 [Zakim]
- +0797094aaff
13:48:06 [PhilA]
... I've not seen any e-mails on this. What is the privacy landscape? (please;-) )
13:48:17 [bblfish]
I think it is just some idea of what kinds of privacy solutions are out there
13:48:20 [Zakim]
+??P10
13:48:30 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ??P10 is hhalpin
13:48:30 [Zakim]
+hhalpin; got it
13:48:31 [PhilA]
danbri: landscape is one of those words that means please describe everything? ¬!
13:48:42 [danbri]
zakim, who is speaking?
13:48:53 [Zakim]
danbri, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (5%), MacTed (51%), karl (42%)
13:48:57 [PhilA]
Karl: Like Oshani, I'm worried that the scope is not clear
13:49:18 [PhilA]
... it's why I was trying to make sure that the user stories would define a tighter scope
13:49:22 [danbri]
zakim, who is speaking?
13:49:32 [Zakim]
danbri, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MacTed (36%), karl (74%)
13:49:32 [PhilA]
... maybe I could discuss this with Oshani by mail
13:49:36 [AlexKorth]
macted must be noisy?
13:49:49 [danbri]
(it was karl i think)
13:50:02 [PhilA]
oshani: from my POV, context is as aspect of privacy so moving it out makes it difficult for me
13:50:15 [PhilA]
danbri: is this something that we can solve by redirection?
13:50:26 [PhilA]
... we look at XMPP< microformats, open social etc/.
13:50:31 [AlexKorth]
oshani: context subtask of privacy +1. on the other hand it makes sence to chop tasks down to subtasks
13:50:53 [PhilA]
... they'll say different things and it might give us a first pass on how they all cover this
13:50:57 [bblfish]
stuff like SOAP has privacy too or something
13:51:10 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
13:51:10 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
13:51:10 [bblfish]
what is privacy in real life?
13:51:20 [tpa]
Zakim, take up agendum 6
13:51:20 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Social Network Matrix" taken up [from tpa]
13:51:44 [danbri]
some fix topic!!
13:51:51 [PhilA]
rrsagent, make logs public
13:52:12 [cperey]
I think we have achieved the first level goal
13:52:13 [danbri]
danbri has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Jun/0097.html
13:52:20 [cperey]
generated in multiple ways
13:52:24 [PhilA]
HH: How I was envisioning the social matrix was a list of X sites, ideally geographically dispersed with some view on usage
13:52:37 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/TopSocialNetworkingSites
13:52:39 [PhilA]
.. how they implemented context, privacy and portability
13:52:52 [bblfish]
the paper sent to the mailing list this week was very helpful
13:53:16 [AlexKorth]
the one of sören preibusch, yes!
13:53:20 [PhilA]
HH: Once the use case doc has some functionality like single log in, multiple groups, multiple privacy, dynamic context, then we can go through these different sites and see how they match up
13:53:21 [bblfish]
yes
13:53:30 [cperey]
the paper sent was very helpful, but doesn't cover mobile social networks
13:53:50 [PhilA]
HH: I was going to suggest we asked Sorin or his co-author to discuss at the next telecon how they would take their data and merge it into our deliverable
13:53:52 [hhalpin]
Social Network matrix
13:53:55 [AlexKorth]
paper pointer: http://preibusch.de/publications/social_networks/privacy_jungle_dataset.htm
13:54:11 [PhilA]
HH: the overview deliverable will be on future direction of W3C
13:54:16 [danbri]
tpa, i wanted to grab harry while he was there re 6. but sorry should've wrapped up User Stories first
13:54:23 [PhilA]
.. but a technical deliverable would list some of the details
13:54:35 [bblfish]
sounds good +1
13:54:50 [PhilA]
HH: I'm just proposing that Sorin and I exchange matrices and look over each other's
13:55:04 [bblfish]
is mobile social netowrks, social networks on mobile devices ?
13:55:22 [danbri]
(re 6, ... continue all actions)
13:55:31 [PhilA]
These are large actions - Karl making a matrix is a big job
13:55:36 [cperey]
agreed
13:55:39 [cperey]
continued
13:55:49 [PhilA]
HH: And there's a lot for me and Christine to do - they ain't going tobe done by next week
13:55:58 [PhilA]
s/tobe/to be/
13:56:10 [tpa]
No I'm good
13:56:12 [danbri]
tpa? anything more re user stories?
13:56:13 [PhilA]
danbri: any more to say onuser stories?
13:56:25 [PhilA]
danbri: we should begin to wrap up
13:56:30 [cperey]
mobile social networks = social networks which are by-design for mobile device users
13:56:36 [AlexKorth]
mobile context-related privacy can only be covered be investigating mobile SNS
13:56:57 [PhilA]
propsed resolution: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html as last week's minutes
13:57:05 [PhilA]
proposed resolution: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html as last week's minutes
13:57:15 [AlexKorth]
sure
13:57:18 [cperey]
maybe do that on mailing list
13:57:19 [oshani]
hhalpin, yes
13:57:20 [hhalpin]
Quick question - should we have Soren's Preibusch.
13:57:35 [hhalpin]
's paper to discuss?
13:57:37 [tinkster]
I'm happy to accept last week's minutes.
13:57:47 [AlexKorth]
hhalpin, good idea
13:57:52 [hhalpin]
I think Evan said he was available on July 1st?
13:58:05 [PhilA]
resolution: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html as last week's minutes
13:58:05 [bblfish]
+1
13:58:11 [cperey]
I +1
13:58:16 [MacTed]
+1
13:58:16 [PhilA]
danbri: meeting adjourned
13:58:26 [PhilA]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:58:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html PhilA
13:58:47 [cperey]
Opera Unite
13:58:55 [rreck]
myspace is firing 30% of its workforce
13:59:02 [Zakim]
-??P28
13:59:03 [Zakim]
-tpa
13:59:18 [danbri]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:59:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.314.683.aaaa, pchampin, claudiov, ??P15, oshani (muted), tinkster (muted), +1.510.931.aacc, AlexKorth, Phil_Archer, +4222aadd, cperey (muted), jsalvachua
13:59:21 [cperey]
unfortunately, I'm signing off
13:59:22 [Zakim]
... (muted), +46.1.08.01.aagg, Carine, MacTed (muted), FabGandon, karl, danbri, hhalpin
13:59:29 [Zakim]
-cperey
13:59:43 [AlexKorth]
A good read. Thoughts on #Opera #Unite by @factoryjoe http://bit.ly/8Ufvr
13:59:55 [yuk]
i just quited the phone
13:59:56 [danbri]
cf http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23IranElection
14:00:14 [tpa]
bye guys
14:00:19 [AdamB]
zakim i am .aaaa
14:00:30 [jsalvachua]
need to be fully distributed and replicated (like on DIstributed Hash Tables systems)
14:01:32 [hhalpin]
I was just wondering if people had any links or news?
14:01:39 [hhalpin]
lots of re-tweeting
14:02:03 [bblfish]
there is a lot of attempts at government involvement in the internet recently, with #hadopi in France, BigBrother in the UK, something in the http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1193209/Illegal-music-downloaders-warned-Internet-cut-unless-mend-ways.html
14:02:15 [PhilA]
zakim, meeting adjourned
14:02:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'meeting adjourned', PhilA
14:02:19 [bblfish]
danbri, I agree that there is a lot of noice in twitterland
14:02:37 [tinkster]
danbri's RT article - http://danbri.org/words/2009/06/16/415
14:02:49 [karl]
In 1989… The Web was not available though… there were events in China ;)
14:03:01 [bblfish]
good idea
14:03:15 [bblfish]
I find delicious more useful sometimes
14:03:16 [Zakim]
- +4222aadd
14:03:30 [bblfish]
as it clusters posts around a URL
14:03:57 [rreck]
obligatory metadata with provenance?
14:04:19 [karl]
q+
14:04:21 [bblfish]
good idea as a use caswe
14:04:26 [caribou]
it was already impossible to track original info in the blogosphere
14:04:28 [tinkster]
laconi.ca implements @-replies between microblogs on different servers, but not flawlessly.
14:04:30 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.314.683.aaaa, DKA, pchampin, tpa, Phil_Archer, tinkster, +1.510.931.aacc, oshani, AlexKorth, +4222aadd, cperey, +03491549aaee,
14:04:33 [rreck]
i think there is a host of metadata, dc:creator dc:copyright
14:04:33 [Zakim]
... jsalvachua, +0797094aaff, claudiov, +46.1.08.01.aagg, Carine, MacTed, FabGandon, karl, danbri, hhalpin
14:04:35 [karl]
Q+ to talk about retweeting and tracking
14:04:36 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
14:04:36 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
14:04:42 [bblfish]
imagine two users named zakim on different microblogs
14:04:57 [hhalpin]
danbri: lack of user-name convetions across multiple sites is a problem
14:04:58 [PhilA]
rrsagent, generate minutes
14:04:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html PhilA
14:05:07 [AlexKorth]
twitter internally fills a column called "in_reply_to_user_id" if you hit the reply button
14:05:09 [hhalpin]
danbri: lack of user-name conventions
14:05:49 [Zakim]
-Phil_Archer
14:06:22 [hhalpin]
You can also have provenance turned off.
14:06:39 [tinkster]
Is this karl speaking? I can take over scribing.
14:06:41 [hhalpin]
I'm just saying that it seems it should be an option.
14:06:57 [AlexKorth]
other systems like friendfeed or facebook have a more sophisticated reply/forwarding/comment data structure
14:07:05 [PhilA]
PhilA has left #swxg
14:07:05 [tinkster]
scribenick: tinkster
14:07:35 [Zakim]
-FabGandon
14:07:40 [tinkster]
karl?: Provenance important, but must not conflict with anonymity if that is desired by author.
14:08:40 [tinkster]
MacTed?: Provenance is important because we need to know validity of information to act on it appropriately.
14:09:05 [karl]
perception is reality… it's how advertisement is working. I think We are addressing the wrong issue.
14:09:27 [karl]
The platform versus the human analysis of news. :)
14:09:38 [AlexKorth]
gtg, bye everyone
14:09:43 [danbri]
bye
14:09:47 [tinkster]
... tracking conversation threads used to be easy, but now unreliable, requires manual guessing.
14:09:54 [Zakim]
-AlexKorth
14:09:56 [bblfish]
As a real use case should one have the story of Jerome Bourreau in France who got sacked by sending a mail to his MP. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0509/1224246190914.html (the internet is not really relevant in this story, the point is that we should not idealise the way the world works without the internet)
14:10:20 [Zakim]
-??P15
14:10:23 [Zakim]
-Carine
14:10:59 [tinkster]
karl: It is always like this for emerging technologies. Early adopters are "good citizens".
14:11:31 [tinkster]
... but when others jump on the bandwagon, not everyone uses it properly. This has happened with the web, with e-mail and other media in the past.
14:11:45 [Zakim]
-oshani
14:11:51 [bblfish]
agree, new media technologies require time for adaptation
14:12:33 [jsalvachua]
see you, have to go, bye
14:12:42 [Zakim]
-jsalvachua
14:12:46 [jsalvachua]
jsalvachua has left #swxg
14:13:00 [caribou]
caribou has left #swxg
14:13:23 [tinkster]
danbri: mobile web use case - finding a restaurant. We know how to do this, but if things go wrong then they go to McDonalds and nobody is too badly effected.
14:13:28 [bblfish]
yes, I think there would be something else close to this to think about from a techno point of view
14:13:38 [hhalpin]
q+
14:13:46 [karl]
q-
14:13:57 [oshani]
q-
14:14:37 [tinkster]
someone: there are other ways to verify things other than provenance.
14:14:47 [tinkster]
danbri: Traditionally, you'd ask your friends.
14:15:34 [hhalpin]
spoofing as trusted source
14:16:03 [tinkster]
... you would go by number of trusted sources, but with retweeting, it's different to tell how many original sources there were.
14:16:06 [pchampin]
suddenly, this discussion reminds me of just made me think of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio)
14:16:24 [danbri]
heh, good analogy
14:16:25 [bblfish]
q+
14:16:29 [danbri]
the martians are coming!!
14:17:17 [bblfish]
agree, they can evolve better if they can see there are better options
14:17:24 [pchampin]
+1
14:17:31 [tinkster]
someone: Nobody *has* to use provenance and other such features, but they should be an option for those who want to.
14:17:31 [danbri]
GennX: RT @MelissaTweets: RT @AliAkbar: RT From Iran: CONFIRMED!! Army moving into Tehran against protesters! PLEASE RT! URGENT! #IranElection
14:17:37 [danbri]
MellissaTweets: RT @AliAkbar: RT From Iran: CONFIRMED!! Army moving into Tehran against protesters! PLEASE RT! URGENT! #IranElection
14:17:38 [danbri]
etc
14:17:52 [Zakim]
+??P5
14:17:59 [yuk]
+yuk
14:18:08 [danbri]
q?
14:18:12 [yuk]
look like something interesting is continuing
14:18:12 [hhalpin]
it could be useful for anyone.
14:18:56 [tinkster]
someone: it would be great to be able to say "who created this joke?" but in real life, that's never going to be 100% achievable.
14:19:37 [tinkster]
... Iran army tweets could have been made more believable with pictures.
14:19:49 [pchampin]
*very* interesting discussion, but gtg
14:20:06 [bblfish]
part of the problem with micro blogging is there's not much space to blog
14:20:17 [tinkster]
... largely a question of the population needing to figure out the best way of using technology.
14:20:46 [Zakim]
-pchampin
14:20:50 [tinkster]
... context is important. is "the army coming to town" part of a role playing game?
14:20:51 [hhalpin]
q-
14:21:25 [tinkster]
danbri: Habit of citing sources grew up in Wikipedia.
14:21:33 [bblfish]
but agree one could make microblogs much better at linking across, so that one could create many different views
14:21:36 [tinkster]
tinkster: I'm pretty sure it came earlier than than.
14:22:18 [danbri]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadopi etc
14:22:40 [karl]
I'm waiting for the first use of a political power to create a demonstration of political opponents to catch the same opponents.
14:22:47 [tinkster]
someone: various laws around the world being passed to restrict some forms of access to the Internet.
14:22:56 [danbri]
re citing sources, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_article_does_not_cite_any_references_or_sources.#When_adding_material_that_is_challenged_or_likely_to_be_challenged
14:22:59 [karl]
s/use of a/use of twitter by a/
14:23:16 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:23:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html karl
14:23:23 [tinkster]
... for copyright reasons.
14:23:37 [hhalpin]
q+
14:24:01 [karl]
aaah RRSAgent has stopped recording it seems
14:24:06 [tinkster]
danbri: the fact that these services have APIs is a huge leap forward.
14:24:33 [danbri]
(noise dissapeared)
14:25:24 [karl]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:25:24 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-irc#T14-25-24
14:25:40 [tinkster]
someone: tweet "your house is on fire" and while you're checking your house, your office gets robbed.
14:25:56 [tinkster]
s/someone/hhalpin/
14:26:34 [danbri]
(i'd like infrastructure where user abc123 can say that user def431 has characteristics blah, blah blah....)
14:26:43 [mischat]
hehe tinkster
14:26:56 [tinkster]
... policy commons is good as a way of knowing quickly what a site will do with your data.
14:27:07 [oshani]
oshani has joined #swxg
14:27:11 [hhalpin]
i'm also in favor of having a use-case for anonymous
14:27:12 [bblfish]
that was fun
14:27:15 [hhalpin]
ids and provenance
14:27:22 [tinkster]
danbri, MicroTurtle can do that.
14:27:34 [hhalpin]
as well as for having provenance that one *wants* to hand over to say, marketers or governments.
14:27:52 [tinkster]
http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/microturtle/spec
14:28:12 [bblfish]
where were you?
14:28:17 [hhalpin]
I had a trip to Seattle
14:28:19 [Zakim]
-??P5
14:28:21 [bblfish]
by
14:28:24 [tinkster]
bye
14:28:25 [Zakim]
-danbri
14:28:33 [bblfish]
:-
14:28:35 [Zakim]
-karl
14:28:36 [bblfish]
:-)
14:28:42 [hajons]
ok, bye
14:28:44 [Zakim]
-tinkster
14:28:45 [Zakim]
- +1.314.683.aaaa
14:28:46 [Zakim]
- +46.1.08.01.aagg
14:28:48 [Zakim]
- +1.510.931.aacc
14:28:48 [Zakim]
-MacTed
14:28:50 [Zakim]
-claudiov
14:28:51 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()9:00AM has ended
14:28:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.314.683.aaaa, DKA, pchampin, tpa, Phil_Archer, tinkster, +1.510.931.aacc, oshani, AlexKorth, +4222aadd, cperey, +03491549aaee, jsalvachua, +0797094aaff, claudiov,
14:28:55 [Zakim]
... +46.1.08.01.aagg, Carine, MacTed, FabGandon, karl, danbri, hhalpin
14:29:05 [AdamB]
I think that .aaaa was me today
14:32:00 [fuming]
fuming has joined #swxg
14:32:47 [tinkster]
danbri: microblogging message containing microturtle <http://identi.ca/notice/5425449>
14:33:16 [tinkster]
and converted to turtle <http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/microturtle/implementation.cgi?acct=tobyink&notice=5425449&format=text/turtle>
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