IRC log of sparql on 2009-06-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:58:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:58:32 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, this is SPARQL
13:58:32 [Zakim]
ok, AxelPolleres; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
13:58:34 [SteveH]
I think my action was time mermitting, but maybe that wasn't captured
13:58:41 [Zakim]
- +049261287aaaa
13:58:49 [AndyS]
It's FPWD - agreeing to publish is not a universal agreement with the doc.
13:59:03 [bglimm]
Hi all, I am scribing today for the first time... Do i have to do something special to get the chat log published afterwards?
13:59:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.276.aabb
13:59:12 [Zakim]
13:59:14 [kasei]
Zakim, aabb is me
13:59:15 [Zakim]
+kasei; got it
13:59:16 [Zakim]
+ +3539149aacc
13:59:19 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
13:59:19 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
13:59:31 [SteveH]
oh, I may be able to attend after all, but will be a bit late
13:59:46 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, aacc is me
13:59:46 [Zakim]
+AxelPolleres; got it
14:00:08 [kasei]
yes, can hear you
14:00:17 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is speaking?
14:00:21 [kasei]
Zakim, unmute me
14:00:21 [Zakim]
kasei should no longer be muted
14:00:29 [Zakim]
AxelPolleres, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: kasei (29%), AxelPolleres (31%)
14:00:50 [Zakim]
14:00:56 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:00:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei, AxelPolleres, bcuencagrau
14:00:58 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql
14:00:59 [bglimm]
Zakim, bcuencagrau is bglimm
14:00:59 [Zakim]
+bglimm; got it
14:01:09 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:01:09 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:01:21 [Zakim]
14:01:28 [AxelPolleres]
scribenick: bglimm
14:01:30 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P26 is me
14:01:30 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
14:01:30 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #sparql
14:01:34 [AxelPolleres]
scribe: Birte Glimm
14:01:36 [Zakim]
+ +49.261.287.aadd
14:01:45 [SimonS1]
Zakim, aadd is me
14:01:45 [Zakim]
+SimonS1; got it
14:01:52 [Zakim]
14:01:57 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??p29 is me
14:01:58 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:02:25 [Zakim]
14:02:27 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P34 is me
14:02:27 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:02:42 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei (muted), AxelPolleres, bglimm, AlexPassant, SimonS1, SteveH, AndyS
14:03:23 [Zakim]
+ +2
14:03:34 [KjetilK]
Zakim, +2 is me
14:03:45 [Zakim]
+KjetilK; got it
14:03:52 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:03:52 [Zakim]
KjetilK should now be muted
14:04:00 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Many people are at SemTec and cannot attent today
14:04:12 [AxelPolleres]
14:04:13 [bglimm]
14:04:31 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: let's approve the minutes from last time
14:04:31 [AxelPolleres]
14:04:45 [bglimm]
... any objections? or additions?
14:05:03 [bglimm]
... nothing, so the minutes are approved
14:05:22 [bglimm]
Alex: I am listed, but I wasn't there
14:05:44 [AxelPolleres]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes with Alex being removed from the attendees list.
14:06:10 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Axel Eric to update minutes
14:06:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-41 - Eric to update minutes [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-06-23].
14:06:38 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Can we approve it with the amendments?
14:06:39 [AxelPolleres]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes with Alex being removed from the attendees list.
14:06:47 [AlexPassant]
regrets for 2009-06-09 are there actually:
14:07:07 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: next meeting is in one week, 23rd June same time
14:07:34 [KjetilK]
Zakim, unmute me
14:07:34 [Zakim]
KjetilK should no longer be muted
14:07:49 [bglimm]
... scribe for next week: KjetilK
14:08:00 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:08:00 [Zakim]
KjetilK should now be muted
14:08:01 [bglimm]
topic: Liasions
14:08:04 [SimonS]
Regrets for next week. I will be travelling, maybe I can join on IRC
14:08:28 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Bijan is not here, so no news from OWL and no news from RIF
14:08:37 [bglimm]
.. no news from liasons today
14:08:43 [bglimm]
topic: actions
14:09:08 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: we some open actions: 16 on LeeF continious
14:09:15 [Zakim]
14:09:24 [bglimm]
... action 17 on Steve
14:09:35 [bglimm]
Steve: I think that is obsolete now
14:09:58 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Action 19 on Ivan is open
14:10:21 [bglimm]
Ivan: What is that action?
14:10:32 [AndyS]
"""Send to the mailing list a few example cases (data, query, results) of SELECT queries in FILTERs"""
14:10:34 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: We have to look that up in the minutes
14:10:36 [kasei]
14:11:01 [bglimm]
... Action 28 is continued and action 32 on Simon is open
14:11:09 [bglimm]
Somin: Action 32 should be completed
14:11:16 [bglimm]
14:11:25 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Action 36 is completed
14:11:44 [bglimm]
... Action 37 is completed
14:11:44 [kasei]
action-38 can be closed, and is on the agenda for later
14:12:00 [kasei]
Zakim, unmute me
14:12:00 [Zakim]
kasei should no longer be muted
14:12:21 [bglimm]
... Action 38 on Greg is completed and can be closed
14:12:25 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:12:25 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:12:35 [bglimm]
... we have 2 open actions to review the F&R docs
14:12:45 [bglimm]
... we leave this open for now
14:12:55 [bglimm]
... action review is done
14:13:02 [bglimm]
Topic: F&R Document
14:13:07 [KjetilK]
Zakim, unmute me
14:13:07 [Zakim]
KjetilK should no longer be muted
14:13:26 [bglimm]
kjetilK: We just 2 things open
14:13:36 [bglimm]
... the short name and the introduction
14:13:59 [bglimm]
... we have the project description
14:14:15 [bglimm]
... SteveH couldn't finish his review
14:14:35 [bglimm]
... whether Chime has reviewed is not known
14:14:40 [AxelPolleres]
14:15:03 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Lets look at the open issues for this
14:15:10 [bglimm]
... short name first
14:15:12 [AxelPolleres]
14:15:21 [AxelPolleres]
14:15:38 [bglimm]
... proposal was to use the name SPARQL Features
14:15:54 [bglimm]
... but this has no version number
14:16:06 [bglimm]
... any opinions?
14:16:53 [bglimm]
AndyS: Can we ask the team contact and ask what is the standard
14:17:19 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: They are not here at the moment
14:17:21 [AndyS]
e.g. TR/xpath-datamodel/ -- no version number (and it's xpath 2.0)
14:17:39 [bglimm]
... I can ask the team contact
14:17:45 [AndyS]
but /TR/xmlschema-2/
14:17:54 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Axel to ask team contacts whether is ok
14:17:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-42 - Ask team contacts whether is ok [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-06-23].
14:18:12 [KjetilK]
14:18:22 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Can I propose to go with that name unless there is some objection from the team contact?
14:18:29 [bglimm]
... do we need a backup solution
14:18:32 [bglimm]
... ?
14:18:48 [AxelPolleres]
PROPOSED: F&R will be published under unless there are concerns from the team-contacts.
14:19:10 [AxelPolleres]
RESOLVED: F&R will be published under unless there are concerns from the team-contacts.
14:19:12 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Lets ressolve this and see
14:19:51 [bglimm]
... My concern is that the previous versions said RDF SPARQL and not just SPARQL
14:20:23 [SteveH]
lets delagate
14:20:27 [KjetilK]
14:20:29 [bglimm]
... I think we can go with that for now
14:20:57 [bglimm]
AndyS: your resolution says that the doc will be published like that, so that might cause a problem
14:21:01 [AndyS]
NB we have not decided to publish yet
14:21:19 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: So should I change the resolution?
14:22:04 [AxelPolleres]
PROPOSE: in case of concerns, leave the naming decision to team contacts.
14:22:25 [bglimm]
.... is it ok to leave it to the team contact for the naming issues?
14:22:30 [bglimm]
... any objections?
14:22:36 [AxelPolleres]
RESOLVED: in case of concerns, leave the naming decision to team contacts.
14:22:46 [bglimm]
... So, there are none and I suggest to resolve this
14:22:54 [bglimm]
Topic: Introduction
14:23:08 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Did you incorporate what was on the wiki?
14:23:26 [bglimm]
KjetilK: I havn't, but there was nothing substantial
14:23:26 [AxelPolleres]
14:24:03 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: I looked ob=ver it. It is not a substantial change. It is mostly to reorder some parts
14:24:36 [bglimm]
... also there are links to the resolutions and I was hoping that this fulfils Any's concern about the timestamp feature
14:24:52 [AxelPolleres]
14:25:08 [bglimm]
14:25:24 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Would such a reordering be ok?
14:25:33 [AlexPassant]
14:25:40 [bglimm]
... if there are no objections, I propose to change it like that.
14:26:06 [bglimm]
AlexPassant: I would like to keep 1.1 and the structure of the documents
14:26:38 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Alex to adopt with two subsections.
14:26:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-43 - Adopt with two subsections. [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-06-23].
14:26:46 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: I will give you an action to adapt the document
14:27:07 [bglimm]
... any more objections?
14:27:20 [bglimm]
... none, so lets do that.
14:27:27 [bglimm]
... next, examples
14:27:49 [AxelPolleres]
14:28:17 [bglimm]
KjetilK: I took text from the wiki and put it in the document
14:28:24 [AxelPolleres]
14:28:28 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Let's have a look
14:28:35 [KjetilK]
14:29:04 [bglimm]
... should the construct with expressions be left in, for the moment it was
14:29:26 [bijan]
bijan has joined #sparql
14:29:27 [bglimm]
... it should be clear that this is not the complex expressions
14:29:49 [bglimm]
... Did you include the implementations list?
14:30:05 [bglimm]
kjetilK: I havn't included that
14:30:32 [Zakim]
14:30:35 [bglimm]
... it seems that the doc is not self-contained with many links
14:30:37 [bijan]
zakim, ??P55 is me
14:30:37 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
14:30:48 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: So you don't have any?
14:31:03 [AndyS]
Checking F&O: fn:concat --> fn:string-join
14:31:05 [AxelPolleres]
(simon was asking)
14:31:16 [AndyS]
fn:concat implies a cast, string-join does not
14:31:36 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: There are some implementations listed, so should we unify that?
14:31:59 [KjetilK]
AndyS: fixed :-)
14:32:18 [AxelPolleres]
14:32:23 [bglimm]
... there are some concerns about an example in the negations subsection
14:32:30 [bglimm]
.. any opinions?
14:32:39 [bglimm]
... Kjetil have you seen that email
14:32:49 [SteveH]
It needs a 2nd example
14:32:54 [bglimm]
kjetilK: I saw it and thought about it a bit
14:33:16 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: what we need is an approval of Andy because he raised the concerns?
14:33:28 [bglimm]
AndyS: Which change?
14:33:38 [kasei]
small typo in 2.3.3: "does not no anyone" shoudl be "does not know anyone"
14:33:47 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: In the negation section.
14:34:23 [bglimm]
AndyS: The wording says syntax, but we actually make deeper changes
14:34:38 [kasei]
I think it is strange to show an example from SeRQL for negation when there are existing SPARQL approaches...
14:35:02 [AndyS]
agree with kasei
14:35:12 [AndyS]
Use his impl as example.
14:35:17 [AxelPolleres]
14:35:18 [SimonS]
14:35:35 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: I just pasted the relevant mail
14:35:37 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:35:37 [Zakim]
KjetilK should now be muted
14:36:16 [kasei]
+1 to the rewording
14:36:18 [bglimm]
AndyS: I think the new wording is better
14:37:26 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Is the rewording for the second part fine too?
14:37:31 [KjetilK]
14:37:35 [AlexPassant]
14:37:48 [bglimm]
... There is a second part to this
14:38:02 [bglimm]
... there was a concern that only the minor system is mentioned
14:38:21 [bglimm]
... I am not sure which systems implement UNSAID? I think only ARC.
14:38:27 [KjetilK]
committed :-)
14:38:34 [kasei]
I support UNSAID
14:38:45 [AndyS]
14:38:56 [AxelPolleres]
14:39:17 [bglimm]
... we not need to rewrite it as NOT EXISTS in SQL syntax
14:39:26 [bglimm]
14:39:40 [bglimm]
AndyS: Are there any examples in the wiki pages?
14:39:48 [SimonS]
14:40:01 [SimonS]
14:40:10 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: I would like to see an example like the other one, expression the same thing as the other one
14:40:16 [AlexPassant]
Zakim: ack me
14:40:19 [AlexPassant]
14:40:49 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Orri to mail NOT EXISTS example.
14:40:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-44 - Mail NOT EXISTS example. [on Orri Erling - due 2009-06-23].
14:40:49 [bglimm]
Ori: I can mail an example
14:40:51 [kasei]
the UNSAID example in the referenced email will work in RDF::Query as-is.
14:41:30 [bglimm]
14:42:15 [AlexPassant]
I was not actuall
14:42:16 [AxelPolleres]
ack AlexPassant
14:42:18 [SimonS]
Zakim, ack me
14:42:18 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:43:01 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Orri will mal an example
14:43:10 [bglimm]
Orri: I can do that now.
14:43:22 [KjetilK]
Zakim, unmute me
14:43:22 [Zakim]
KjetilK should no longer be muted
14:43:34 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: kjetil or Alex can you adopt that in the document?
14:43:42 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: adopt NOT EXISTS running example in F&R
14:43:42 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - adopt
14:44:05 [bglimm]
... where is Kasei's example?
14:44:05 [kasei]
Zakim, unmute me
14:44:05 [Zakim]
kasei should no longer be muted
14:44:20 [bglimm]
Kasei: It's in the mail and in other places
14:44:41 [AxelPolleres]
14:44:50 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:44:50 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:44:58 [AxelPolleres]
Kasei: UNSAID works with Kasei's implementation
14:45:00 [AndyS]
14:45:11 [AndyS]
first example
14:45:34 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Kjetil to adopt one more additional syntaxe UNSAID or NOT EXISTS for negation
14:45:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-45 - Adopt one more additional syntaxe UNSAID or NOT EXISTS for negation [on Kjetil Kjernsmo - due 2009-06-23].
14:45:57 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Until when can this be done?
14:46:06 [bglimm]
kjetilK: I think immediately
14:46:29 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: If we have all these actions done, we need approval by two more people.
14:46:57 [AndyS_]
AndyS_ has joined #sparql
14:47:04 [bglimm]
... We can still propose to publish, given that these reviews are positive given that it is a draft
14:47:35 [bglimm]
... So I need two reviewers
14:47:52 [bglimm]
... Steve, when could you look over the documents?
14:47:59 [bglimm]
SteveH: early next week
14:48:00 [kasei]
(very loud typing noises... bglimm, is that you?)
14:48:15 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Could anybody do that earlier.
14:48:29 [bglimm]
Simon: I can also do that early next week
14:48:31 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Simon to review F&R
14:48:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-46 - Review F&R [on Simon Schenk - due 2009-06-23].
14:49:19 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Kjetil can you incorporate the changes today after the meeting?
14:49:23 [bglimm]
kjetikK: yes
14:49:39 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: So next week we can decide whether we can publish or not
14:49:56 [bglimm]
... is there anything more on F&R
14:50:24 [AxelPolleres]
Postpone decision to next telecon (hopefully really ONLY the decision)
14:51:40 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Axel to ask team contact to approve patent text (currently commented in the document).
14:51:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-47 - Ask team contact to approve patent text (currently commented in the document). [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-06-23].
14:52:16 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: nothing else? No, so lets move on.
14:52:28 [bglimm]
... to Service Descriptions
14:52:33 [AxelPolleres]
topic: service descriptions
14:52:34 [AxelPolleres]
14:52:52 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:52:52 [Zakim]
KjetilK should now be muted
14:52:52 [bglimm]
... last week two actions were completed on this
14:53:10 [kasei]
Zakim, unmute me
14:53:10 [Zakim]
kasei should no longer be muted
14:53:25 [bglimm]
... Greg, can you tell us what you did?
14:53:26 [AxelPolleres]
14:53:35 [bglimm]
Greg: I have posted a list on the wiki
14:53:48 [AxelPolleres]
14:53:49 [bglimm]
... with things I suggest should be standardised
14:55:13 [AndyS]
q+ to ask about SPARQL/1.0 (minor)
14:56:17 [AxelPolleres]
ack AndyS
14:56:17 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask about SPARQL/1.0 (minor)
14:56:38 [bglimm]
AndyS: we need to put the version number of the SPARQL features in
14:57:10 [AxelPolleres]
q+ to ask whether default should be SPARQL 1.0
14:57:52 [AndyS]
ack me
14:58:25 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Can we have an assumption that SPARQL 1.0 is the default
14:58:31 [SimonS]
Sounds like a chicken and egg problem: Need SPARQL/1.1 to say I am a SPARQL/1.0 endpoint
14:58:38 [SteveH]
+1 to no defaulting
14:58:51 [bglimm]
AndyS: I don't think. If the system does not say anything, then it is not supporting any particular version
14:59:10 [AxelPolleres]
seems agreement that no default behavior should be assumed/defined.
14:59:38 [bglimm]
... Greg, do you have an example for the connection RI?
14:59:58 [AndyS]
+1 to naming all built-ins with URIs.
14:59:59 [bglimm]
Greg: for new features, such as aggregate functions, it makes sense to give them new URI's
15:00:36 [bglimm]
... at the moment we don't have URIs for all features
15:01:07 [bglimm]
Greg: I think there was support for using URIs instead of keywords
15:01:29 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: should we have URIs for libraries or URIs for all features?
15:01:32 [AndyS]
and that they should work as a function call. Except BOUND, || and && which are not strict functions (they are technically special forms)
15:01:51 [bglimm]
Greg: That might depend on the decision of whether or not we will have function libraries
15:02:02 [AndyS]
Axel: do we want also to name libraries?
15:02:21 [AxelPolleres]
15:02:26 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: We are running out of time, so we might have to contibnue this discussion on mail.
15:02:49 [bglimm]
... I have to talk to Lee on how we proceed now and where we continue
15:03:14 [bglimm]
... whether we should focus on the features or whether we should flesh out the time allowed features in the F&R document
15:03:34 [bglimm]
... Any other things for the agenda?
15:03:45 [Zakim]
15:03:46 [bglimm]
... No, so see you next week.
15:03:49 [Zakim]
15:03:50 [Zakim]
15:03:50 [AxelPolleres]
15:03:52 [Zakim]
15:03:54 [Zakim]
15:03:54 [Zakim]
15:03:59 [AxelPolleres]
Thanks all!
15:04:00 [Zakim]
15:04:06 [Zakim]
15:04:32 [Zakim]
15:04:32 [SteveH_]
SteveH_ has joined #sparql
15:04:40 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, list attendees
15:04:40 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +049261287aaaa, +1.518.276.aabb, kasei, +3539149aacc, AxelPolleres, bglimm, AlexPassant, +49.261.287.aadd, SimonS1, SteveH, AndyS, KjetilK,
15:04:44 [Zakim]
... [IPcaller], bijan
15:04:55 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, draft minutes please
15:04:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AxelPolleres
15:05:32 [bijan]
Axel, Is lee going to do the clean up of the minutes?
15:05:49 [kasei]
kasei has left #sparql
15:06:02 [AxelPolleres]
bijan, I need to check with him
15:06:09 [SimonS]
SimonS has left #sparql
15:06:20 [bglimm]
Let me know if i have to do anything on the minutes
15:06:41 [AxelPolleres]
The minutes magic was done by eric/bijan so far.
15:06:52 [AxelPolleres]
15:06:55 [bijan]
15:06:56 [bijan]
15:06:57 [bijan]
Not me
15:07:00 [bglimm]
At the moment, I get insufficient access privileges if I try to access the minutes
15:07:01 [bijan]
Definitely not me
15:07:15 [bijan]
rrsagent, make minutes public
15:07:15 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', bijan. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:07:38 [AxelPolleres]
yeah, I got the same problem with the rrsagent last week already.
15:07:53 [bijan]
rrsagent,publish minutes
15:07:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate bijan
15:08:21 [bijan]
I think the team member has to twiddle a bit
15:09:10 [bglimm]
Ok, so can I leave? My russian course started at 4, so I'll be late anyway
15:09:18 [bijan]
15:09:43 [Zakim]
15:09:45 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:09:46 [Zakim]
Attendees were +049261287aaaa, +1.518.276.aabb, kasei, +3539149aacc, AxelPolleres, bglimm, AlexPassant, +49.261.287.aadd, SimonS1, SteveH, AndyS, KjetilK, [IPcaller], bijan
15:10:17 [ericP]
RRSAgent, please make log world-visible
15:10:35 [AxelPolleres]
will figure it out with the others... ah, thanks ericP
15:10:55 [AxelPolleres]
ericP, can you take care of the nicely formatted minutes?
16:04:18 [AxelPolleres]
alright, all taken care of.
17:23:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sparql